Sorry about the tardy responses – I wasn’t ignoring anyone ...

Anthonyve – appreciate your tongue in cheek on the nationalisation suggestion. You seem to be very angry that Gina Rinehart and Clive Palmer are very rich – if they were manufacturers instead of miners, would you be demanding that that the manufacturing industry pays more tax? Where is the anger coming from? These are not Victorian era Punchesque top hat wearing cigar smoking capitalist buffoons profiting from children in the mines. I think we need to move past that stereotype for any useful discussion.

I think that the miners pay the tax asked of them. There is another OLO thread going at the moment with a similar theme and I will try to also make a post there. Is this fair? Well, I don’t think it’s unfair – they are essentially treated as any other business from a taxation point of view (until now) and pay a royalty to state governments for the right to exploit the resources (essentially buying the in-situ resource). That seemed to be OK when the industry was struggling for decades with low commodity prices; it should be OK now.

I actually think your post regarding the analogy of the buggy whip company is a good one. However, for coal it is only partially relevant to alternative power generation because some coal is used for steelmaking (metallurgical or coking coal) and some burnt in power houses (thermal or steaming coal). The former is a source of carbon in the blast furnace and so will not be displaced by solar energy. However, I like your reasoning and presentation of the concept that the latter might become anachronistic. I just think it will be many decades before this occurs.

Ludwig – the $4.9B figure I quoted is for resource royalties paid to the WA government only, taken from their website (www.dmp.wa.gov.au/4407.aspx ). It does not include any taxes, duties, excises or third party deals like payments that may be due under native title agreements or to other third parties (eg. local community subsidies).

$1B was from oil & gas production and $3.9B was from mining. As per the constitution, this money stays in WA but it’s not that simple. WA’s share of the GST collected here will drop from 72% in 2011 to 25% in 2015 – the rest is distributed to “poorer” states. Hence, if you like, there is an indirect “sharing of the wealth” from the WA mining royalties.

The DMP (www.dmp.wa.gov.au/1525.aspx) also provides handy stats on the value of production, as requested. WA resources sale value for 2011 was $107B, with the larger shares being: Iron Ore = 62.8B, Oil & gas = 21.3B, Gold = 8.8B, Alumina = 4.1B, Nickel = 3.9B

WA also recorded $35.6B worth of capital investment for resources during the year which is a significant proportion of the revenue derived (of course there are ins & outs). In addition, all operating costs, taxes, exploration, wages, royalties, etc have to come out of the $71.4B left over. I do not have a feel for the overall net profits made.

To make the comparison you ask, I have pulled some figures from the 2011-12 fiscal performance, the latest federal government budget and the GDP:
• The deficit in the federal government books for 2011-12 is expected to be about $42B
• The 2012-13 federal budget is worth about $365B
• The current commonwealth debt is about $250B
• The 2011 GDP was about $914B

I hope that provide the perspective you required.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/cop-told-make-awb-probe-go-away-20120606-1zwqk.html
This link is of huge interest, to everyone of us who care for truth.
Some but far from all, know already how huge and how very deeply corrupted the government was in this matter.
We saw the end of careers of even a Deputy Prime Minister.
Other Ministers too, some now sitting out side the Parliament throwing stones at Labor.
Basically here is the truth,SOME within that government, wanted to sell wheat on behalf of our farmers.
To any one, including Iraq, bribes a way of life in the middle east they saw the sale as an end worth ANY effort.
In doing so the AWB was nearly destroyed, We faced illegal trade allegations from American wheat growers.
And those who the whole corrupt issue wanted to help the most, our farmers, suffered the most.
We paid one of the many middle east murdering dictators to kill his people.
Two last things, Liberal/Nationals/ Conservatives that they are today bury their dead deeply,with aid from our lost media.
And in this matter help from an exuberant ALP pleased with its victory, blind to todays lie machine driven by wealth and privilege.

Hi Peter,
To clear up one point, I 'm not angry at rinehart and palmer because they're rich - as it happens I'm rather well off myself.
No, I'm angry about their behaviour; their abuse of privilege; their willingness to participate in lies; their utter disregard for the wellbeing of others and for the wellbeing of our nation.
All the while mouthing meaningless platitudes.
And would I be as angry if they were in manufacturing? Yes, if they behaved as they do.
To quote Edmund Burke, "all that is required for evil to prevail, is for good men to do nothing".
I would add a rider, that evil comes in many forms.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Yes Anton, I am poor.

I used to run butcher shops, deal with many staff, most good, some thieves delt with blood sucking land lords, had several investigations from those fair work fools, all of which turned out to be witch hunts, but still cost me thousands.

Nowadays, I don't even leave my front gate for work, cut about $1000 a day in timber, not bad for a five or six hour day.

Poor little ol me.

As for your quest to convert us all to your beloved wind mills, solar or any other form of green power you can dream of, good luck, but you have to remember, most of us are realists.

We also realize that mining is the back bone of our economy, as not only does it drive our exports, but it creates huge numbers of support jobs, jobs that simply wouldn't be there if not for mining.

In fact, take away mining, Bette still, take away WA and the rest of the country is teetering on resection.

So, with more than 60% agains the carbon tax, do you think labor are getting the message?

Or are you also in denial?

Has been, unlike many, I admire your efforts and have stomped on the same ground as you, the Whitsundays.

Happy sailing.

<< Nice try Ludwig, but you know full well I support a ETS in favor of a permit to pollute, which is essentially what the carbon tax is. >>

Rehctub, no I didn’t realise that you supported an ETS. I can’t keep track of everyone’s views on everything!

I agree that the carbon tax could effectively be a licence to pollute, if it is left as end-point and is not just the first step in a new green momentum. Unless it is progressively strengthened, it will be ineffectual… and WILL essentially be a licence from the federal govt to continue with business as usual while they are seen to be a little bit green.

So it is possible that doing nothing could actually be better than introducing a piddling and highly compromised carbon tax if it won’t be taken any further.

Ok, so you support an ETS. But wouldn’t there be just the same concerns with it as you have with a carbon tax – the negative effect on business?