My local MP sent me a letter containing the following: “…the trial Youth Boot Camp Diversion Program aim to reduce the likelihood of young people falling into a life of crime. The trial Youth Boot Camp Diversion Program will see juveniles, convicted of offenses, which would otherwise merit custodial sentences, diverted into an intensive three-month program.”

Boot camps are of questionable value for offenders. I have been in the army. Such training is effective in creating close knit fighting units which will obey orders promptly and without question. In the past offenders have sometimes been given the choice of the armed forces or prison. In general they make bad soldiers. Offenders need to be integrated into civil life. They need to be given the mental tools to make wise choices - eg to refuse to join a gang, to get into an apprentice program or higher education, to choose between political alternatives etc. Democratic society needs people who will ask questions more than it needs those who will follow orders without question. I think boot camps should be out of the question for offenders.

Boot camps offer discipline and authority. That in itself may be part of the problem. The youthful offender may have had too much discipline and authority and too little love and kindness. Possibly love and kindness might be something to try. Let the offenders get up when they feel like and have some good food but require them to talk about their future and the choices they have to make. Hire knowledgeable older men and women who are capable of listening and suggesting alternatives without subjecting the offenders to any religious blather. Create relationships if possible so the offender can continue to discuss matters after he or she is released.

Start with a pilot program and compare the results of this sort of program with the boot camp approach. Boot camps are wide spread enough by now so there is probably adequate data.

It is my feeling that kindness and love would be much more effective at deterring crime than discipline and authority.

Could do a great deal of good David f.
Send the letters author to boot camp, may kick some sense in to him.

Boot camps don't work for everyone, but they do for many.

The point of them is to introduce structure into the youths lives with the concept of reward / consequences for their actions.

I don't think it's one or the other – they’re all good ideas.

I would suggest that boot camps (or similar exercises) teamed with the chats with a friendly uncle/aunt would provide a good balance. I would add education of good nutrition, drugs, etc as well as a healthy serve of community service.

David, when you say these young offenders had had too much “discipline”, I think you may be mistaking brutality (as some parents do). I think that true discipline comes from within and it can be nurtured in an appropriate forum or environment. Hence, the physical as well as the social/emotional ideas in concert will work well I think.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Structure imposed from the outside is usually resented. It is good to live a structured life, but a person should be encouraged to set up their own structure.

Dear Peter Mac,

Having experienced a boot camp i found the discipline in mine was largely an exercise of brutality. One expects in those sort of camps for a certain small percentage to go around the bend or commit suicide. Many of the others became toughened enough to become an effective fighting force. I think it's fair to assume that most youthful offenders are damaged goods or they wouldn't be offenders. I think they need healing more than any kind of discipline except for the requirement that they must talk with the counsellors.

Simple National Service will suffice. Reduce unemployment & rebuild common sense.
Those who are against it should volunteer to clean up & pay for damage done by irresponsible morons.

Df,

While I will freely admit to not being an expert on the subject, I do know personally of 2 teenagers that were out of control, sent to boot camp, and have since vastly improved and become more functional, motivated and happy.

Lack of structure in early life often leads to poor social integration, and while imposing structure is generally resented, it often gives a sense of belonging. Some respond, others don't. There is no magic bullet. However, I don't feel it should be condemned, as it definitely works for some.

i found the discipline in mine was largely an exercise of brutality.
david f,
did the brutes make you polish your shoes ? Boot camp was never meant to be a tree hugging exercise. I don't think they're any good either, run mainly by Sylvester Stallone wannabe's & nothing to to with thinking. All they do is turn morons into bigger morons.
No thinking involved, a total waste of time. Not character building at all.

Boot camps are a very US idea and given the size of their prison population it seems the US approach to most matters concerning 'discipline' are not worth two bob.

Bit like their NAPLAN tests Gillard fell for.

The LNP used to run boot camps out near Charleville years ago.

Total disaster.

Of course, we may find that SM went to a boot camp and became 'recovered', which is why he so loves them?

But I suspect SM has just fallen into the tired old trap of supporting anything that smacks of, well, smacking, and intolerance, with none-compliance dealt with through the much favoured 'rougher than usual handling' the Right so adores.

Try reading The Mint SM, to see the idiocy of a boot-camp mentality in the armed forces.

And that was written by a man who didn't seem to mind about a little S&M.

Just had a thought davidf.

Is this trial of bootcamps to be run by Scripture Union with the $1m the LNP promised them last week?

To be run by chaplains maybe?

David f

'It is my feeling that kindness and love would be much more effective at deterring crime than discipline and authority '

In actual fact kindness and loves include discipline and respect of authority. They are not in opposition to each other as you indicate. I am very pleased I was loved (which included discipline) as a child.

runner,

"In actual fact kindness and loves include discipline and respect of authority....."

I agree - it's nice to know we can agree on something. : )

I believe children are most comfortable when there are clear boundaries in which they can conduct their lives. I also think that in the rush of modern life, boundaries become rather nebulous unless parents strive to uphold them. It goes without saying that good social relationships, commitment and responsibility are things that young people learn by example from their parents and from others with whom they share their lives.

TBC,

Your post is a perfect example of the idiocy of using political dogma in all aspects of life over results based experience.

I never went to boot camp or use corporal punishment at home, nor do I actively advocate boot camps. However, in extreme cases where all else has failed, boot camps have a proven track record in rehabilitating a certain portion of those that attend these camps.

Drug rehabilitation clinics use a similar philosophy, and to get on your political soap box and claim that it is a right wing conspiracy is moronic

I wouldn't say I was a supporter of boot camps.

But it got me thinking about acquaintances of mine. Their fourteen year old daughter has gone totally off the rails and there doesn't appear to be any help to take her in hand. This child a couple of years ago was still in primary school, was musically gifted, regularly took part in musical theatre, had parents who were supportive and interested in her progress in school and sporting activities. She has turned against both her parents, will not take direction of any sort, won't stay at school (if they can get her there). She goes out and doesn't come home, etc, etc. Her parents have resorted on several occasions to relying on the police to find her and bring her home. They are helpless to control this girl. They have bent over backwards contacting people, psychologists and the like - only to be told that if the minor doesn't come voluntarily, there is nothing they can do.
If this continues, this child will get into serious trouble, she now appears to have no respect for anyone, has become violent at home and a threat to the psychological well-being of her younger brother and sister.

What does a parent do under such circumstances?

Really SM, nominating two wayward children who changed their behaviour because of a 'boot camp' as evidence of overall success of the concept/practice is hardly convincing, except to you of course.

Unless, of course, we are talking at crosspurposes?

Is this what you mean:

http://www.bootycamp.com.au/?gclid=CJC2t52jlrACFeFfpgod7UdD7w

http://www.bootcampsaustralia.com/00006/QLD/brisbane-city/

http://bootcamp.com.au/

I concede defeat SM. You wuz right. These camsp will soon knock the young lads into shape, complete with a boofy tatoo and shaved head.

But this is more what I had in mind:

http://www.pierretristam.com/Bobst/07/cn101107.htm

And I suggest you have a read of this Australian Institute of Criminology paper, July 1995, Number 46, by Lynn Atkinson, 'Boot camps and justice: a contradiction in terms?'.

You have to Google it I'm afraid.

If you can find some positive evidence, do post and I'll read it.

Anecdote does not count.

For those who cannot be bothered to Google, here's an extract of the flavour:

"Boot camps generally offer reduced sentences to eligible offenders
in exchange for their participation in a regimen which eschews individualism and promotes inter-dependence, and which demands unquestioning compliance, discipline, hard work, and physical toughness. The programs are intense and unrelenting, and aim to
"break down [the inmates']individualism" as an ex-military superintendent of a prison boot camp once put it, in order to recast the inmate in a disciplined, conformist mould (Hoffman 1990, p. 32)."

As I said before, gormless, dangerous, mad USA notions of Wild Bill Hiccup the justice maker (peacemaker?) in Boot Hill County.

Poirot

Before SM suggest Boot Hill County as a cure, we probably all know someone like that.

Our neighbours had a sole child, a real b....er, and they allowed him to be so, not noticing it even, but he turned out OK, went to uni, is engaged in doing 'good works', although never quite as you describe above.

However, my wife has a school friend with two daughters, one a Dux the other could be the person you described, to a T.

Given good luck, and perhaps not more than the ageing process, she went to uni and made a 'recovery'.

Well, stopped being such an obvious trial to all and sundry anyway.

TBC,

Yeah, I'm sort of hoping this kid might meet someone in her travels that may have some positive influence on her. Sometimes all it takes is for that to happen and the young person all of a sudden gets a new perspective on things. Adolescence throws up all sorts of challenges, hormonal and behavioural. At the moment she seems more "lost" than anything

TBC

You provide an article of anecdotes and then tell me not to. I know of two parents that have sent their children (not convicted of any crime) to private boot camps for serious behavioural problems with positive results. I was not talking of a one size fits all penal system, but rather the private system, which you would have picked up if you had actually read my post and not simply hopped on your hobby horse to attack me.

However this study into correctional boot camps over decades indicates that while recidivism was not reduced, social attitudes were, greatly improving re integration into society in comparison to other juvenile correctional facilities. Which shows that behaviour improvements, which is the point I was making, is a positive feature of these camps.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/197018.pdf

"Boot camps were almost universally successful in improving inmates’ attitudes and behavior during the course of the program; they also produced safer environments for staff and residents, presumably due to their highly structured atmosphere and activities. Several studies indicated that adult boot camp participants had better attitudes about their confinement experiences and had improved their prosocial attitudes more than comparison group members.

One study concluded that inmates in adult boot camps had increased self-esteem, reduced antisocial attitudes, increased problem-solving
skills, improved coping skills, and improved social support.

In other studies, boot camp inmates improved their self-esteem and standardized education scores in reading and math more than comparison group members. Anxiety and depression declined to a greater degree among juveniles in boot camps than among those in comparison facilities.

Dysfunctional impulsivity (the inability to control one’s impulses) increased among youths in comparison facilities but decreased among
boot camp participants. Social attitudes improved among youths in boot camps, but worsened among those in comparison facilities."