With the Queensland poll showing decisively that voters don't forgive or forget Politicians that lie to them. The question is whether the Labor caucus made a huge error in abandoning Rudd, and if it is too late to revisit the pre-emptive spill that Gillard called?

If trust is such an important thing in elections, should Gillard do the honorable thing, as did Bligh, and resign from politics? Or should the caucus push her?

I say congrats, for a question that is not one eyed.
First I wanted Rudd, never wanted, still do not understand the actions against him.
Gillard can not win an election.
Rudd, if able to return after his defeat would confront these truths.
Voters want him.
Party does not.
Power brokers, wrongly in charge of my party will not let him return.
Bill Shorten will get the nod, and do a good job.
But it will take time,and an election loss, if that change is not soon.
The ALP my party and life, must face the truth, we must reform.
And need not face that defeat, Shorten, if soon, can do what is needed, and unite the party.
But if true reform still leaves power brokers, we may as well forget it.
Our branches stagnate, if after we gather and put our thoughts a power broker over rules tens of hundreds of us why be the front for a dictator ship?
I truly think Abbott is Labors best hope, and that too many in my party think that alone will get us over the line.
We are better than that.

Belly I don't think you have that quite righty mate.

The poll for preferred PM I saw, during the challenge episode, showed Abbott 56%, Rudd & Gillard combined were 44%, with Rudd about double Julia.

The only time Rudd got to over 50% was when the choice was only between him & Gillard. He is not wanted by the majority. Having said that, I doubt Labor would be as low as it is, if he had stayed, but I'm also sure nothing was going to save them in this Qld election.

I could not believe the parachuting in of Carr. He has already shown he is a fool now, even if he weren't previously. It will be interesting to see what they try in BLigh's seat. If they try to stick a preferred new leader in there, they might just give it to one of the other lot. God help her future if a green gets it. She'd have to migrate to NZ.

Got to say it's a bit hard to find any loyalty in the lot of them. The woman should have swallowed her pride, shut up, & sat on the back bench. Surely she owed the party that much.

Julia is one of the best legislators ever seen. She knows what will go and what won't.
No doubt Labor has had more popular leaders, but i don't see this as a popularity contest.
Nearly 300 bills passed.
The fact of being a woman, puts her off side.
A leader from outside of parliament is interesting.
The carbon tax is well compensated, and will slip in like any other tax.
No one mentions the tax cuts.
Abbott is supposed to be well educated, certainly doesn't show it.
He will be labors best asset, and big Joe, is 100% asset.

Oh crikey SM, how can you still be talking about Rudd?

He’s gone to where he belongs – far from the front line of Labor politics.

It’s time to consider someone else. And guess what? The best person to replace Gillard has only just recently appeared on the national political scene – Bob Carr!

Now if he were to become PM, Labor might actually stand a decent chance of picking up its act and being seen to do so by the general populace.

"Nearly 300 bills passed." - yeah that's got to be a seller for those wanting less laws, less intrusive government.

"The fact of being a woman, puts her off side." I don't think to many really care about that, there are enough other reasons not to like her.

"The carbon tax is well compensated, and will slip in like any other tax." - how much compensation for those on good incomes but with big commitments?

R0bert

Nearly 300 bills passed.
579,
Can you name just a couple which are of benefit to us ?

Labor have reaped what they have sewed,may they rot in the cesspool of their own decadence.Few will shed a tear including the Great Jack Lang.

I understand every post, a few clearly on the verge of some thing far from nice.
579, my fellow traveler, it is yours I do not understand.
This is true,despite the rants of arjay and individual, this government has good policy's and achievements.
In 2007, we with other than Kevin Rudd, would not have beaten Howard.
Yes Ludwig he is gone, no return possible.
But this morning should tap every Labor supporter/member on the shoulder.
The rise that came as folk wrongly thought he would win,is forever gone.
Serving the interests of my party and my country is great, but not done with hands over our eyes our ears and our mouths!
Labor is gone!
our achievements too.
A FOOL is about, in 18 months, to become PM.
unless power brokers take a breath.
They own the QLD result.
They unleashed attack dogs on Rudd during the challenge.
They ignored voters and the next polling will be worse.
Every one knows,EXCEPT POWER BROKERS, Gillard is rotten fish on sale out side the yellow Arch's, at lunch time.
Party first gentlemen, reform and change next now!

A FOOL is about, in 18 months, to become PM.
Belly,
That comment is a clear indication of how bad the nastiness will get shortly from the left. I really don't have an answer how some people can watch two leaders run not only run their party into the ground but the country as well yet you have the nerve to call a potentially good leader call a fool ?
Mate, if there's a fool it's you. You have such a low degree of integrity that you can't even wait for the bloke to prove himself a bad leader if indeed he should fail. Is that what today's Labor is made of ? People like you ? You'd make Jack Lang quit Labor if he were still around. He'd be too embarrassed.

Individual,

Bligh ran the a negative campaign against Newman, How did she fare?

Labor's pathetic attempt to vilify Abbott is similarly successful, as Federal Labor's primary vote is in the 20's again.

The analysis is simple, Labor cannot win whilst it is lead by a liar.

It's probably too late to change to Rudd, even if it were possible, apparently most Labor MPs would prefer to lose the next election than serve in a Rudd government.

The present 'Labor' government should resign and Gillard should call an election, then the majority of voters will get what they want and deserve , an Abbot government.

Arjay,

Yes, what the country needs is a real Labor Party with a competent leader.

A lot can happen in 18 months, calling abbott a fool is being kind to the grub.
A leadership change could occur in 12 months, who knows. Julia is strong but people seem to want popularity.
Abbott is only popular because there is nothing to judge him on.
I don't know if popularity is any way to run a country.
Some decisions will never suite all people. Mining tax and carbon tax is the right way to go, and that has upset the richest people in the country, but who is in charge, the 1% or the govt;

I much prefer Gillard to Rudd.

Rudd lives in a fairy tale land ignoring reality.

He apparently thinks population growth is no problem, and that Australia can expand in population regardless of such niceties as available water, arable land and other necessities to support a great population increase.

He is unaware of the reality that people would not flock to him in his recent leadership challenge where he wound up with approximately the same support as he started out with. A politician making a leadership challenge should make a realistic count of the numbers.

He instituted the chaplaincy program in the Queensland schools copied by Howard subjecting students to guidance by people subscribing to religious mythology rather than a grounding in psychology.

IMHO his commitment to religious mythology, denial of environmental consequences and lack of awareness of the way his peers see him makes him unfit to govern even a small country town.

579,

No the 28% with that grub Juliar are in charge.

I think there's a problem with the basis for the initial set of questions.
I don't think voters much care one way or another if politicians lie. They expect them to.
One of the reasons I say that is that Abbott has contradicted himself on nearly every position possible.
He's lied about his past beliefs, and simply laughs when he's confronted with his lies.
He adores Howard who was the architect of the notion of core promises, which meant that all other promises may be broken at will.
He was caught out on several porkies during his time as a minister. Yet Abbott is quite polpular and will probably be the next PM.
But it's certainly not only Abbott.
Another reason politicians lie is because of the way the media misreport and sensationalize honesty. Ditto the commentators.
Also politicians lie because we - the voters - force them to.
We elect them to do what's necessary to achieve the most good for the most people.
But to do that inevitably means annoying some group or another, sometimes a large, even majority group. We live in a time of the 30 second grab and few voters bother to educate themselves about the underlying issues driving decisions.
So, when politicians act in a way that we perceive to not be in our best interests, we punish them. Sometimes when they act contrary to our ideology but do the right thing, we still punish them.
Here's an example: Almost every economist in the world agrees that the way Rudd handled the GFC was correct and that the additional debt incurred was a small price to pay for our relatively painless GFC experience, especially as our public debt to GDP ratio is one of the healthies in the world.
Yet there are still many who are highly critical of that debt, mostly for ideological reasons.
So politicians tend to lie with a glib 30 second grab as a way of doing damage control.
I really don't understand why so many single out Gillard for doing exactly what every other politician does.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Ant,

I have to disagree, whilst the electorate realize that politicians may not be entirely honest about their motives, election promises are taken seriously. The degree of breach of faith is what determines their reaction.

For example the promise of fuel watch and grocery watch, when proven to be unmanageable and then abandoned, is a broken promise, but does not carry much weight, as neither were huge election issues, and were abandoned for good reason.

However, a solemn pledge on a major issue just before an election, that is blatantly discarded to impose a large unpopular tax simply to appease a fringe party is a huge breach of faith. This is not forgiven nor forgotten, and while getting Juliar 3 years as PM will probably condemn labor to the opposition benches for a decade.

I would take you a bit more seriously, SadowMinister, if your emotions and personal feelings were not so obviously on display.
"Juliar"?
Oh, please.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

"Juliar"?
Oh, please.
Anthony

Don't you get it? The dog lied. Or are you too thick to understand?

Oh, I get it, AP.
I just happen to think that the use of personal epithets is neither an effective nor a mature way to further the debate.
In fact, I'm reminded of an old truism, that goes like this:
The use of personal insults in debate is usually:
a) Suggestive of a lack of supporting evidence ; and
b) An indication of the intellectual shallowness of one's interlocutor.
I leave it to you to decide which one applies in this case.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Ant,

Or 3) an effective way of grinding the point home. That she lied is not in dispute, and the moniker is well earned and effective.

As PM "Julia Gillard’s personal approval ratings are in the “something I just stepped in” range. " And have been since she announced the carbon tax.

While you and others argue that her opprobrium is not deserved, the reality is that the perception is cemented with the voters and unlikely to change in the next 18 months. A Labor team that wins the next election will certainly not have Juliar at the helm. Rudd for all his faults might have stood a chance.

You still don't get it do you Anty. Won't allow yourself is probably closer to the truth.

People hate the witch. The mere sound of her voice gets the radio turned off. A picture of her, on TV has so many people grabbing for the remote in so many houses it fills the air with radio waves.

People who have never even disliked anyone in their entire lives are amazed at the depth of their feelings against this woman, & through her, to anything Labor or socialist.

I know it's hard from an ivory tower, to get any idea of what really happens in the world. I know it is hard to drop long cherished ideas, even when proven total codswallop, [think AGW], but mate it is there for you to see, if you just open your eyes.

Much better to open them now, than continue kidding yourself for another 18 months.

Athonyve clearly your intellect is about twice that of some here, *the dog*?
Well in fact she would not get a bed with them here, but I would not stoop that low.
In taking the flack here,remember some know no better.
Their is Individual, comparing me with the first big fella Jack Lang.
From the 1930,s a man who was great but no modern day politician, remember why he had the ribbon cut for him Indy.
However, some even want an end to Democracy.
To concede defeat mid term and hand government over to Abbott.
Gentlemen, and clearly others, consider my words.
Gillard is unloved, always will be, in the next few months she, before being replaced, will bring Labors polling down even more.
THEN WHY is Abbott polling worse than her?
He clearly, is disliked even more.
First side to swap leaders gets ten percentage points poll rise!
QLD ALP, sorry they can not find a man to lead, if needed I will eat my words, but like it or not some men after Gillard, can not be won by a woman.
Those pearing from a future date at our words here, know some of us did not fall under the spell of self interest and the very rich.
Or the weird strange fool Abbott, but we did not call for his head!

Anthony, I’m at a loss to comprehend why you need to post on OLO when you have your own blog which you spruik with monotonous regularity.

Don’t you get the approval you desire? Do your own bloggers have contrary opinions? Do they agree with you to the point of monotony?

What do you want from us?

I have a theory. You bullied your parents into agreeing with every whacky perspective you ever had. At School you were likewise bullied. You personally feel you have no credibility and you find it difficult to build a genuine circle of friendship. If you have family, you struggle to maintain personal authority and don’t sleep well as you constantly seek to improve your personal credibility.

You do not experience any free form relationships as everything must be structured around your personal pre-conceived ideology. There is absolutely no space between your views on anything and world reality on everything.

Why else would you have your own blog and post here?

Interesting analysis, Spindoc.
You're probably right on all counts.
Actually, there are a number of reasons why I post from time to time on OLO.
One is because I'm a writer, so that is what I do, wherever and whenever I can.
Second, because I'm an opinionated sod, (like most OLOers, I suspect), I simply can't resist the temptation of a soap box.
Third, I rather love a good argument.
Fourth, as you would have noted from my blog, (and thank you for visiting), I rather enjoy writing satire, meaning that I don't tend to take stuff too seriously.
But, damn! it's so hard to resist the temptation to twist the tail of those who do.
I don't put my blog address only to promote it, although that's certainly part of the reason, I freely admit that.
I happen to believe that the complete anonymity of the web allows some folk to... well,let's say, go a bit over the top, in a way they might not if they weren't anonymous. Insulting those who disagree with them, for example.
By signing with my blog address, I make myself a bit less anonymous, which in turn means that I can be held, at least to some degree, a bit more accountable for what I write.
That's not to say that I don't go a bit over the top myself too now and again, but at least I don't do it completely anonymously.
As to what deep psychological drives push me to participate in OLO, well your guess is as good as mine.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

THEN WHY is Abbott polling worse than her?
Belly,
Are you sure ? I mean if you read non-Labor sided leaflets it says the opposite. At least on this mornings TV it was like that. One station had Gillard leading Abbott & on the other Abbott was ahead of Gillard. I'm still trying to figure what's going on.

"""
I'm still trying to figure what's going on.
"""

There's no truth in the media anymore , it's all cash for comments these days.

I've met plenty of people that like Abbot and I get around quite a bit. I've yet to meet a person that likes the Red Headed Witch. As Hasbeen has said on numerous occasions, people turn the other way when she speaks or is in view. That's how despised she is! With the right amount of money and influence, you can even make a turd popular!

579, the tax cuts are a joke.

What little tax relief this will bring will be lost in the increased super that labor is trying hard to take the credit for.

I say this because if the mining tax was going to make this super increase possible,why are employers having to pay for it.

I point out to Rechtub that the increased super is promised by both sides.
And judging by your inability to count mate, I see why business got a bit hard.
Raw Mustards, well not sure it is worth the effort.
Consider with me,your inability to say what you think, without needless insulting Gillard.
What if all of us spoke like that here?
Afraid your pride in being hot stuff is not very attractive.
Before launching in to me, know I am unhappy with the woman, like a hundred thousand ALP voters,but gee!
And too my detractors with in Labor?
Stop kidding your selves they will not put Abbott in the job!
They put Gillard there,how much worse is her polling to Rudd's.
If solidarity is helping destroy my party by following the wrong path? stick it!
Reform, return the party to its membership not single power brokers, make branches inviting

Stop kidding your selves they will not put Abbott in the job!
Belly,
This is all speculation which has no productive edge to it. What is productive for the country is to get Labor away from decision making.
We know from the past that the Coalition can manage & we know from the past that Labor can't manage. So, in the interest of a better future for Australia do you still, after all the evidence before us, that Rudd is a wiser option than Abbott ?
I KNOW he isn't, why CAN"T YOU SEE THAT ?
Belly, a Government that spends $370,000 on a study to water down the 100th ANZAC Day is akin to treason. Do you support that ? Was your father in the trenches ?

Update to one of my previous posts:

Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men.Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch.Faceless men. Kill the witch. Faceless men. Kill the witch........................

What a farce even calling this an opinion forum. It's mantra at ten paces by the usual suspects, 24/7. Some of you must be paid to do this. Even Tibetan monks aren't as dedicated.

INDIVIDUAL! do you understand it is almost imposable to talk to you with out insulting you?
Or that near your every post insults some one.
Why can I not see!
I first said here, Rudd can not return, ok so far?
I along with more than half Australians, check the polls, do not trust Abbott.
Individual, a concept you are unaware of, but worth learning.
It may be you who is unable to understand!
Gave up punting, after 55 years on the race tracks, but if I was to study the form.
For the understanding Handicap I would place you behind the Ambulance and Clerk of the course at the finish line.

Luciferase tell me, do you reckon a comment as anti left, as your comment is pro left, would ever be allowed to appear in a Forum run by the ABC.

Answer that truthfully, & you will then understand why your lot are getting canned, & deserve to be.

Pledges in blood, crap, No. When will this bloke learn, you can't treat the AU people like they are stupid.
I see CN is lining up his mates for the odd job.
When is he going to start work, or was he talking rubbish like Toni.
Clive wants a word with CN, if he can get away from the CIA.

Belly,

Don't attribute to the polls what you want to see. Because most voters don't approve of what Abbott is doing doesn't mean that they don't trust him. Juliar has the trust issue, and a few labor tragics would love to believe that Juliar's stench has rubbed off on Tony.

Turnbull as leader never got above 20% approval, yet TA is in the 30s. Typically opposition leaders are way below the PM, so relatively Abbott is doing very well.

Trust us she says, you have to be kidding.

Lexi, Newscorp controls a large chunk of the newspapers, but a minority of the total media. Assuming that the newspapers alone shape our opinions would assume that we are all idiots.

Labor has been in the low 30s / high 20s for a year, this is not a 24hr cycle. If Labor does not change something pronto, what happened in Queensland and NSW will happen federally.

Toni has not said anything to be judged on. Tony and big joe, are just door stops. I would not take to much notice as yet, of your polls.
What strong leader was a populist, that will happen when the work is done.

Shadow Minister, I not for one second doubt your intelligence.
So please do not question mine.
You a spin Doctor of the top order know, as I do.
Gillard can not, now or ever, come back from her current polling.
My party has to confront that, trying to construct a brick building out off straw is not on.
And you know, if Abbott handed over the leadership, please do not let him!
To Pyne, Bronwyn Bishop or Julie Bishop, you would rise 5 more percentage points!
Just imagine if you replaced him with a Liberal, not Conservative.
Tony Abbott, and you know it, is thought of as worse than Gillard, see the polls.
SM, it is you, who rush a post out every time he sneaks in front of Gillard in the most preferred, but hides behind rhetoric if its the other way around.

Or that near your every post insults some one.
Belly,
If you call references to reality insult then please be my guest. You keep saying I'm insulting but you never really prove me actually wrong. Is it just a case of the truth hurting ?
You et al accuse me of only seeing things my way, don't you do the same ? At least I'm putting up some evidence. The fact that you et al don't like reality is not my fault.

579,
I'm still waiting for a couple of those 300 bills which are of benefit to us. Any chance looking into that soon ?

Indy, sorry bloke, I just can not hurt you that much.
Can not bring myself to tell you what I think.
Just re read your last post.
And look at the idea I evade answering you.
Self confidence when miss placed is a blind fold.
Inability to know we, all, get it wrong,is too.
Every opinion I have, you tell me is wrong.
And gee, think about it, you hurl a hero of my party, from the days it was a purely Socialist party, Jack Lang,from the 1920, and 30,s at me.
Big Jack was a man of HIS TIME if he took his policy's to Canberra today, he would struggle to win two percentage points of the vote.
And you,as anti Labor as any poster here, would be as insulting about him as any.
Indy you try, but fail, to be the quick witted detractor of others.
In away I am wrong, you actually get it to work, your every quip leaves YOU lessor for it.

Belly,
I wish I could fathom how you think. Get this into you once & for all. I'm not anti Labor, far from it. I'm anti incompetence. It just so happens that Labor or rather ALP is incompetent. I'd rave on just as much about the Coalition if they were as incompetent as Labor is.
Think about, you never know you might actually understand what I'm on about.
What's the I'm hurling a hero at you ? Have you completely lost it ? What am I failing at ? Make you understand ? You could be right there.
You make everything about your party whereas I'm concerned about the future of Australia.
Belly there's more to life than blind loyalty or blind faith. This is Australia not Disneyland although it looks like we're run by D Duck & Co.

The MRRt and carbon tax is all you are interested in. Anti Labor and anti female. In other words blind in one eye and can no see out the other

Individual,
There is a real problem in your assertion.
You say, "Labor, or rather ALP is incompetent".
Now, the ALP is a party, so what do you really mean?
There are at least three possibilities I can think of:
1. People who choose to join the Australian Labor Party are by definition incompetent - difficult assertion to support.
2. By ALP, you mean the people who make up this particular government. If this is what you mean, then you ought to clarify, but anyway, it's a bit sweeping, don't you think, to say that an entire government is incompetent.
Like most governments, this one is doing some things very well, Health for example, and somethings very badly, selling the logic behind its actions to the electorate and Immigration are two areas that spring to mind.
3. That the Australian Labor Party itself is incompetent. But, assuming you are not referring to the way it administers itself, then you must mean the party itself. But the party is really a group of philosophies. So, are you making the case that the philosophies of the ALP inherently lead to incompetence? This is also a difficult assertion to support.
So, precisely what do you mean when you say that the ALP is incompetent?
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Athonyve you fish in a dry dam.
No water for decades and never will be.
Fine contributors one now dead, tried to get clarity about why Indy thinks as he does.
Indeed what he thinks.
I am not able to be sure Indy thinks at all.
I can not get my head around him.
Praise for Lang, ignorance of achievements like National Superannuation, Banking reform, NBN fast becoming a Conservative policy.
The party of change is the ALP.
Individual may find him self isolated in a Conservative meeting, he is difficult to follow.
I individual am proud, of coming disability safety net, Carbon tax, NBN pension rises.
I fear tax cuts for the richest, middle class welfare, a product meant for the needy not the greedy.
I fear Abbott's 5% cut in emissions scheme will not work, and that the workers pay for it, profiting are rich mates.
I too am proud, of myself, My opinions of you Indy could have been hurtful, but I hold back.
You are doing the best you can.

ignorance of achievements like National Superannuation,
Belly,
Massively wrong again. Go back into my posting history & you'll find the one where I specifically pointed out the one good thing that came from the ALP. It was, read carefully-Superannuation.
Do yourself a big favour & ignore me because I'm sick of wasting my posting credit on your defensive & pointless dribble.

Antonyve,
ALP vs Labor
Labor= Australian Labor Party doctrine for the working class.
ALP = Academics, Lawyers. Preposterous pretend doctrine for the working class. Real doctrine fleece the workers & give to the hangers-on.
If you don't understand that then not even the ALP can help you.

Individual, i don't mean to be difficult, but ALP stands for Australian Labor Party.
You seem to be asserting that the ALP is some subgoup of lawyers and academics.
The fact is that anybody can join the ALP, so what are you talking about?
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Indy ok.
I told you twenty times twenty I would no longer talk to you.
Then as an act of kindness tried yet again.
I take your offer, try, very hard, not to tempt me by constantly referring to me in your posts.
I am not being nasty, not deliberately targeting you.
Remember even you found no reason to rebut my thoughts that you insult almost every post.
I leave you with this.
I try first to be kind, always, I am reminded of my youth, in Summer Hill in Sydney.
Dashing for a train on my way home to my city home in Granville.
A fellow stood every day waiting to sell me his helicopter.
See I had said Gday to him.
Not many did.
He was so happy that I took the time every day.
Offered him 5 shillings but he held out for ten.
was that you?

Belly,
just read the vindictiveness in your words.

When Julia disposed Rudd just prior to the election, she made 2 critical mistakes; the first was to allow party power brokers from talking Rudd into not going to a spill, which would have seen Rudd not only confined to the backbench, with far less support than he gained later from those who didn't like the way he was deposed; but possibly dis-endorsed as well, simply because he'd apparently suffered a nervous breakdown caused by massive overwork; culminating in "juveniles" in his office, apparently running the country.
The second was not to explain to the public and the media, why this move had suddenly become absolutely necessary.
Since then she has failed to adequately communicate why she had no other choice than rescind a promise not to introduce a carbon tax.
[I seem to recall many non core promises; and, a commitment to never ever introduce a GST on the part of former PM Howard! Clearly a complicit media glibly glossed over that one; or indeed, how democrat treachery on this matter; sounded the death knell of a once very popular middle party!]
Now the "media", with few exceptions, seem to be working their butts off for Abbott; and or, to blacken the name and reputation of the very best post war leader and parliamentary performer we've had?
Who says, you can't buy an election?
We're told that around 30% of the population understand politics and or political issues?
Similarly, around 30% understanding economics?
This leaves around 40% who understand neither?
Its the latter group who invariably decide elections; and indeed, seem to be over represented here?
Little wonder they believe Abbott should lead? Hardly surprising given; tree hugging vegan; Herr Hitler, was initially elected by quite massive popular vote. Apparently, you can fool some of the people all the time? Rhrosty.

Rhosty welcome you find a supporter in me, not sure Rudd had a break down.
But very sure too much power,including a recent departure, was given to the wrong folk.
Sure too the vindictiveness of some in the recent challenge damaged the party.
For best part of 70 years the term faceless men has been thrown at the ALP.
True or not, it was true for too long, it hurts us.
And is back.
I would, still,truly, die defending my union.
But consider, once did not, we unions have too much power in our child the ALP.
Kids sometimes need to take different paths.
Reform,a more welcoming branch structure, and openness.
The Liberal Trial, American style of picking a candidate for one seat, seems better than Sussex street telling who will run.
Labors best include ex unionists, our worst too often get the seat because they failed as unionists.
Abbott should frighten thinking Australians.

Rhrosty

'I seem to recall many non core promises; and, a commitment to never ever introduce a GST on the part of former PM Howard! Clearly a complicit media glibly glossed over that one; or indeed, how democrat treachery on this matter; sounded the death knell of a once very popular middle party!] '

You might try and be a bit honest. Surely you know Howard took the GST to the people after changing his mind unlike the one who blatantly lied.

Rather than debate runner, room exists to do just that, I talk to my party this morning.
SOLIDARITY. once so proud of that word but not now, we should stop it blinding us, like a blanket over our heads.
Our policy's are far better than our application.
This mornings polls are not an aberration.
They are to get worse.
The dreams of many died at the defeat of Kevin Rudd.
If you wish to see in my words only a Rudd fan in action,put the blanket back on.
It serves no purpose, you have a blinding ability to ignore truth.
We have made mistakes, but our policy's on the whole are good ones, they will stand history's test,but this government will not.
SOLIDARITY, still, now, no one knows why you removed Rudd, no one understands why Gillard got his job.
Or why she keeps it.
Is SOLIDARITY the reason we,the lifelong shareholders and true believers are not in the need to know group.
Bill Shorten, yes under stand, is the answer if Rudd had to go, and some doubt it, Shorten by now would have our polling up 15 points.
Yet he will,or will he, as Gillards polling continues its free fall,will those who dropped Rudd stand by her? SOLIDARITY? or did promises get made that can not be broken?
Then in the name of the Australian Labor Party, not the swear word SOLIDARITY, act!

I see that Mark Latham said that Labor has no chance at the next election unless "they replace the Liar".

Mark Latham actually looks sensible and competent compared with the current rabble. Most of them did actually back him.

Mark Latham says that about every one.
He is/was/and always will be a fraud.
I have spoken about briefly falling under his spell.
Long before he took the leadership.
His home page was of great interest.
I followed his road trip for a short time after he took the leaders roll.
He soon showed me he was that fraud.
At 8am election morning, haveing set up a polling booth in redneck country, at 6am.
I went to the National party Captain ,congratulated her on a massive landslide to come.
And left young up wardly mobile ALP folk to the dreams of victory.
Latham /Gillard/Crean,three peas in a pod, each using the other two,all backed by Fitzgibbon.
Took the ALP to its black hole.
One we may inhabit again.
But only a conservative would still wish to use any of these three slugs against the whole.
LIES? Abbott has that under control he can beat her in that too.

The GST was an admirable act from JH. Although he lied through his gills on most things as do most pollies, he brought a reform that was not popular while almost being defeated in the election (Beazely got a greater percentage of the vote but not of seats).

Frankly, I don't care if Labor gets a shellacking for being unpopular, as long as needed reforms are in place and too difficult to unscrammble. Popularity is a shallow reason to be re-elected, and that's the path Rudd would take Labor down. It's the path the Coalition will follow, but I do question whether subsidizing nannies and other childcare policies supporting the wealthy are that popular, just my feeling.