A while ago I stared a thread about how bad things are looking for business, and jobs alike.

As is often the case, I was shot down with most suggesting I look at the great shape we are in compared to the rest of the world.

With the most recent casualties being WOW and shortly, Dick Smiths, It's been brewing for some time, you just need to be on the ground to see it.

So, who out there still believes all is well and we have nothing to worry about.

Henny Penny stuff Rechtub.
Knew who it was first word.
Both my hands are up.

Butch is at it again, Retail is changing and will get worse before it gets better. That is well known, and we are not relying on you to tell us. Employment is down 15,000 in feb; and there are 190,000 advertised jobs in AU. WOW must be a state store. Dick smith has been for sale for some time. Try and keep your kool butch, and steady as she goes.

Yes we have a problem, Rehctub. We need less people trained as
shop keepers or burger flippers and more trained as mechanics etc.

So its not unemployment that is the problem, but skills training.

If retail has a problem it's because the consumer has had enough of several years of bingeing on the credit card and is more interested in mortgages, clearing debt and what's happening overseas. The lust for electronic gadgetry has also probably peaked.

The spending party had to stop one day and Gerry Harvey's strategy of loading us up with "nothing to pay for two years" debts has run its course.

If the retail sector want to grow they need to change their model and adapt.

If you're looking at blaming somebody its more the retailers themselves than the consumer and certainly not the result of some sort of legislation.

So its not unemployment that is the problem, but skills training.
Yabby,
And what is the root of that problem ? A mindless consumer mentality that's what !
The Jerry Harvey buy now, pay in two years mentality is what's causing it. There's no sense of responsibility out there anymore thanks to watering down of educational standards & no national service.

The problem starts with the parents, Individual. They mindlessly
pop out kids and then think that society will take care of them.

If they cared about their kids, they would see to it that they
received a proper education or skill that they can use for the rest
of their lives.

My mom once heard a mother advising her kids that they should just
go on the dole, like she and their father was.

Indy yabby and you have a point, but while some are over spending the problem in fact, if we have one is too many, are not spending.
The GFC wakened many,they bank and pay bills,not spending.
But it is true, and we need to focus on it, today skills are needed to get jobs that never existed in our youth.
We all have story's of our youth,carrying bags of spuds on our back or walking up ladders made of bagged flour to put our bag on top.
Today those jobs are done on pallets by machines.
Kids we once sent out in hob nailed boots now work behind a PC keyboard or answering phones.
We are not flooded with unemployment.
We are not in crisis, we may well be ,soon but not yet.
The economy is not dependent on Rechtub leaving the butcher shops.
Even that, long ago as I ran in and out of half the shops in Sydney to get the bones and fat.
No one saw future shops would be selling meat as it is today ready to cook and being told just how to do it.
Change is a positive more than not.

Yes, the tasks are now different way beyond our imagination just ten years ago. Thas why I am so strongly advocating a two-year non military national service program fro every 18 year old. Menial tasks are what's falling by the wayside & not because they're disappearing in this technological age. No, it's because the silly education policies are hammering education for education's sake & of course furthering the teachers interests. No matter how un-glamorous menial work is it is becoming increasingly important because no-one wants to do it. That's why the pay for such work is steadily rising.
I see it in our organisations where we have the admin staff outnumbering the hands-on trades by literally 10 to 1. Half the computers & fax machines & printers are just gathering dust, nothing is produced & bureaucratic protocol is reigning supreme. In all, it's a huge unnecessary expense for no value.
We need to take a good hard look at the road ahead & admit to ourselves that we're talking the wrong turn. The right turn is there for all to take but it's a steeper climb with less pay & people don't like that. I'm afraid the time has come where we simply don't have a choice.

No surprises in that response belly.

Yabby, skills are a huge problem, trouble is, young ones just can't see the Forrest for the trees.

If they can earn upwards of $50K without skills, simply by working what is considered, out of hours shifts, even though we demand a seven day society, why would they bother gaining skills, as it also means low wages while they train and, given many of their mates, who have chosen that path have lost their jobs, through no fault of their own, a low skilled, higher paying job is a bit like the old bird in the hand.

Wobbles, what about banking, manufacturing etc, are you suggesting they to have to change their ways.

So indi two years service.

So who pays to keep them, us!

We already have a situation of 12 piglets and only 10 tits to feed them.

Are you suggesting yet more welfare.

If it's not essential, people are not buying. A shock-wave went through the community, when America and Europe collapsed. And there may never be a recovery, consumer confidence went through the floor.
A medium to large shift in retail is predicted, as business repositions for the new economy, leaner, online, strip shopping has been on the edge for years, as people prefer the large malls, where you only have to park the car once.
Australian's want good wages, but don't want to buy local. So something has got to give.
Restructuring is taking place and will be for the better.

Shrill?

I dunno butcher you seem to actually be delighted. You have been desperate for the economy to tank for years as far as I can see. It's all part of the 'doin' the country a favour' 'small business is the backbone of the country' mentality you've got going there.

You feel nobody is grateful enough that you hire workers. Nothing in it for you I take it.

Oh they're killing small business! Why aren't they grateful for my altruistic employment of the plebs!

Meh. Leaves me cold.

It's the equivalent of an ageing rocker who is 'doin' it for the fans'.

Doom, gloom, I told you so, you should have appreciated me, you ingrates shoulda worked for peanuts, you'll be sorry I took my bat and ball and went home.

Seeya!

Tax dodging aspirationals will always try to be tax dodging aspirationals.

Nothing to fear.

Couldn’t agree more rehctub, I also get very nervous when asked to compare a post ALP Australia with “other economies” that are broke several times over?

Would it not be more appropriate to compare our post ALP Australia with a pre-ALP Australia?

I’m thinking; Pre-ALP looked like NO national debt, $22bn in the Bank and $40bn in the future fund and very healthy economic indicators.

Then we have Post-ALP looking like $220bn National debt, bank account empty, $120M per day interest on debt, that’s about $16,500 per person in Australia, the future fund raided by $5bn, a further National debt of $60bn for the NBN (it is not shown on the national debt books) and all the economic indicators and prospects going in the wrong direction.

Still if you are a rusted on ALP/Green/Independent supporter, why would you want to peer into the ugly and embarrassing world of reality when you can point to failed foreign economies as a distraction.

Look over there! OMG, it’s a Unicorn.

I find that I agree most with wobbles.
However most people are looking for a return to business as usual.
Well it will not happen.
We have crossed the Rubicon and we are entering a new world.
TAFE colleges will be far more valuable than Universities as can be
seen just here in my area. There is no electrical trades course at
the Tafe college in this major area, that is just one that I know about.
A friend runs a two way radio company but cannot get trainees when
they find that they have to study at Tafe and go to jobs in the
country and get qualifications to climb masts etc.
It is too much like work.
They can get as much doing something easier like banging a keyboard.

The NBN will be a salable asset, in time to come. What has that got to do with the discussion at hand. 50 billion of that belongs to credit card.
Always has been up to labor for the infrastructure.
You are a believer of to many charges on business, abbott is proposing to put a [levy] tax on to support woman for payed maternity leave capped at 150,000 / couple.
The modest maternity leave we all ready have is causing no one any harm.

The retail situation is bad at present, but there are many factors at play.
> Lack of consumer confidence;
> Growing impact of online retailing;
> Pressure on consumers to pay down debt;
> Major commercial property operators slow to realise the problem and therefore charging absurdly high rents, (although this trend is beginning to reverse);
> Difficulty in attracting retail staff;
> Generally poor levels of customer service. (I recently returned from the USA and Asia, where I found retail service to be vastly better than I experience here).
We certainly do have a problem in the retail sector, but not an earth shattering or even unmanageable problem.
The sector will recover, but in vastly different form to the way it is now.
In the coming decades we will see an increase in medium density housing with less car use leading to a more "Manhattan" Style of retail where there are no malls, but every city block has grocery, butcher, flower, deli type shops along with laundry services, etc.
Economies of scale in trasnport are no longer an issue - e.g. Amazon, so it will be easier to economically keep supply up to smaller shops.
The Westfields of the world will disappear,(and good riddance, I say), less money will go out as rent but more will be spent on staffing.
It'll take a while, but the future model of retail is a bright one.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

*Yabby, skills are a huge problem, trouble is, young ones just can't see the Forrest for the trees.*

Well in that case, perhaps we need the recession that we had to have,
20% unemployment, etc, to teach people values once again.

Anthoneyve has a point that I had forgotten.
The days of the shopping malls seems to be ending. In the US there is
even a web site for closed down shopping malls.

Walking around Westfields yesterday it seems hard to imagine.
These sorts of major changes always happen slower and later here than
they do in the US, but they do happen.

The Harvey Norman style shops also will fade out as everything becomes local.
Local furniture manufacturing is recovering here as I mentioned on olo
some time back.

Our biggest problem is that the politicians have not acknowledged that
our economy will never get back the growth it previously had.
I notice that in the last few months the financial commentariate
has started to acknowledge the effect of energy prices on GDP & growth.
This is a fairly new phenomena as previously it was all just a money
go round and the money printing press would solve all.

However the politicians are still pushing it all up hill and hoping
it does not all fall back on them before they are off the scene.

Keep at it *RehcTub* I enjoy these kind of threads and consider that you have made a number of worthwhile contributions from the micro economic perspective.

I recall one poster who expressed the view that there was a time when the ALP paid far more attention than what it currently does to the micro perspective, but that this has been in progressive decline for some years.

..

If at least some of us can agree that wages cannot continue to go up then obviously costs must come down.

A sacrifice of a "Holy Cow" is required i.m.o.

In that regard, I look to the dividing line between those who have a regulated wage and to those who do not. I personally would like to see the medics (including dentists) put back on a fixed price, means tested, sustainable fund/diversified funds as previously mentioned, with professional incentives for excellence and special conditions for those who actually have a good or service that is in international demand, to be evidenced by a positive cash flow into the country, who are to be encouraged and rewarded, but would still be required to service the local economy, at say for the sake of argument, the "Enhanced Medicare" rate.

The majority of the doctors are mere functionaries in my view, that are in their positions to service the health and well being of the citizens to amongst other things, enhance productivity.

The fund managers themselves would have to be limited in terms of wages/salaries and bonuses to only a measure above and beyond what is required for sustainability of the fund, which incidentally ought also include research and a reserve.

Same for the lawyers.

..

I would further add that no public service member/consultant/contractor ought earn more than say 75% of the base rate of his/her Minister.

..

There is in my view too many areas which ought not be afforded the right to make up their own price in the interests of sustainability and equilibrium.

tbc

Property - what a joke - when I last heard Alan "Big Bud" Cola comment he indicated that even in the view of the I.M.F. the Aust market is something like 35% overvalued and then some in my view.

What's the average Joe first time home buyer got to pay for a $AU500,000 house? Upward of 1.1 million over 30 years? Please ...

..

Is there any truth to the assertion from an economic perspective that the economy was inflated to pay for the wars?

..

The working class of Aust is being screwed and if you vote for either red or blue and you're not on the gravy train then you are nigh on committing self harm.

..

Having said all that though, I note that I have only a limited understanding of economics and will be interested to read any further "reasonable" comments made by others.

DreamOn,

I have a quite simple test for those who post on blogs. It’s called the “Mythbuster Test” It used to be quite difficult to apply because of the “plausibility factor”. So many posters used terms, phrases, references, academic and research links that create the illusion of learning. (Like reference to Holy Cow rather than Sacred Cow)

I came to realize some time ago that such posters owe their repertoire to “blogging” and not to education. Thus they create “plausibility”.

There are hidden clues in their texts that give the game away. Mostly they relate to comprehension, context or relevance. An example might be as simple as reference to a book, link or a piece of research which the author has either never actually read, does not comprehend or is used utterly out of context.

This is why some posters fail to make it from “Busted” to “Plausible”, let alone to “Confirmed”.

Entertaining though this may be occasionally, once one becomes tuned to the flawed but artificially plausible rhetoric, it does begin to grate.

So when you say to rehctub that you “enjoy these kind of threads” (very bad English by the way), all you are telling us is that you actually believe your own rhetoric and are absolutely convinced of your plausibility.

I would very much like to hear more about your economic credentials to which you refer? Then we may all be able to contribute to your desire for “further reasonable comments” on this subject.

Otherwise we may reluctantly reach the “patronizing tosser” conclusion.

DreamOn,

<<I enjoy these kind(s) of thread(s) and consider that you have made a number of worthwhile contributions from the micro economic perspective.>>

So you assert that you do know the difference between macro and micro economics? OK question. What is structural deficit?

If the past ALP paid << far more attention than what it currently does to the micro perspective, but that this has been in progressive decline for some years>>. Is it the ALP that is in decline, their policies or their attention to micro-economics? And what does this mean for current ALP fiscal policy?

<<If at least some of us can agree that wages cannot continue to go up then obviously costs must come down>>.

Bollocks. Upon what business model is this predicated? It is in the interest of all businesses, their employee’s, customers, government and trade unions to have all businesses generating enough EBIT to pay greater than the going rate for wages.

Medical services are on the right hand side of the balance sheet, expenses. It is rude to refer to any service providers such as doctors or any expert medic as a “functionary” you arrogant little toad.

At least we have validated some key facts. You do not have the foggiest what is meant by most of what you write, especially when you spout such as, << the interests of sustainability and equilibrium >>. Further, we are left in no doubt that your assertion that you “have only a limited understanding of economics” is very, very true. So why spout about it?

Zip it before you destroy the last remnants of your credibility.

Do we still have a problem? Of course we do, & will have until we defeminize the education system.

With the current system of stress-less assignment & in class assessment, by teachers we are turning out year 12 graduate students rated as "very high achiever", who have trouble with junior high level work.

I am not surprised that the TAFE in Bazzs area have dropped the electrical trade course. The electrical course requires a bit of moderate level math. What's more, it requires you to actually have the math, & be able to use it daily. It is not enough to have looked at it for a couple of days, months back, done an assignment, & promptly forgotten it. This may get you into a uni science course, [god save us], but will not get you through an electrical trade course.

A friend of mine an ex high school math teacher, is now a TAFE math teacher, & loves it. His students not only want to know, they must understand what they are taught, & how to use it. He tells me that less than one percent of the students actually have the math, or physics, the piece of paper they got from high school says they have.

He does some private coaching, & says only about 10% of uni engineering students have the math they are supposed to, the rest have to get coaching to catch up.

Only externally set & marked examinations covering the full senior course can correct this rot, but the feminists are going to be hard to beat. The idea that a teacher may have to actually be able to do, what they are teaching would horrify them. Then expecting the students to actually pass an exam on what they really learned would be just too much. Hell, anyone would think we expect students should really learn something.

*SpinDoc*

True to your "handle," your regurgitation of the echoes of your own delusions are barely worth commenting on, however it ought be quite plain that both I and other posters here speak as we please, within reason, without regard for your own personal bizarre idiosyncrasies.

Apart from noting a left out "s" on one word (a typo) your writing is notable by its distinct poverty of content and none of your assertions are backed up and you make no attempt to refute the substance. Except that is it to suggest that it is rude to refer to service providers in the manner in which I have done. I was actually being polite, as the reality of "Do you have private insurance? - No, sorry out the door" makes the vast majority of doctors and lawyers in my book to be absolute blood sucking parasites.

Thus, I would suggest without respect that it is you that have a credibility problem and not I. I am quite comfortable with my mojo and my shine.

Actually, I think that you understand me all too well and simply do not like that which I have written so have made a vain and pathetic attempt to attack me personally.

Water off a duck's back I assure you.

Good point rechtub, things are looking bad for business but WOW and D.S. both rely, as does most of the retail sector on the importation of cheap foreign product to conduct their business. They are only merchants and as such do nothing to create wealth but simply exploit the cost differential between our economy and those of the poorer countries. I can state categorically, that most of what is offered in our retail sector has been produced in free market zones in south-east Asia with labour costs of about $2 a day. The de-regulation doctrine instituted by our previous federal government’s directly resulted in allowing the flood of cheap product into our retail sector which obviously undermined our manufacturing base. The other downside to this loss was that our unemployment numbers rose dramatically and now hover around 700000 people on the dole. The Australian labour force cannot compete in this extremely uneven playing field; consequently we no longer produce our own wealth and rely on buying cheap product into the country to sustain our standard of living. This situation would not be so bad if indeed our state governments had handled the responsibility of managing the exploitation of our natural resources in a manner which enriched the Australian economy more equitably. If we are riding high on the back of the mining boom the why is the country getting deeper into dept. Perhaps our multi-billionaires and the rest of the mining industry will agree to paying the taxes due to this country instead of hiding their incomes in offshore tax havens.
DEN71

So who pays to keep them, us!
rehctub,
of course. we can invest the money we spend on waste, on them instead. Can't see the problem ?
Every hanger-on bureaucrat's pay cut by 10% , flat tax 20% & you'll have more money than you can poke a stick at.
The reason why economies are so stuffed is because they're run by economists.

instead of hiding their incomes in offshore tax havens.
DEN71,
Offshore havens don't have the insane rules & regulations we have in hangers-on countries pretending to be democracies.
Anyone with money & an ounce of sense will tell you that those countries are only good for exploitation but not investment.
You want money flowing to these shores ? Change Government ! Simple.

579 If it's not essential, people are not buying. A shock-wave went through the community, when America and Europe collapsed. And there may never be a recovery, consumer confidence went through the floor.

That was only what started it, the real confidence hit came from successive labor blunders, createing poorly run schemes, providing faulse hope for workers, encouraging them to buy homes, only to stuff the whole thing up, not once, not twice, but as many as ten times in the past four years.

One of the main factors in consumer spending, is the knowing that what they spend, can be replaced.

This replacement factor relies on job security and, when the government places to many hurdles in the way of business, they to tend to loose confidence, the difference being, their spending creates jobs, rather than just feeding them.

Now someone mentioned that I appear happy about it all, well I can assure you I am far from it.

I just wish governments would listen to people who know what's going on, rather than base their assumptions on what has happened in the past.

Even now we have a business forum, including business leaders, aimed at fixing what labor has broken, but the sad part is, that had they held their forum before pulling the trigger, we may not be in this position.

You know there is a huge problem when our dollar is where it is, these retailers buy from the $2 a day countries, yet they can't survive.

Abbott is wanting to load up business with a parental leave scheme funded by business. Capped at 150,000 / couple.
So lets not blame Labor conclusively.
The commodities from the $2/ day countries are over represented. It's about time there was a pull back, all that is doing is supporting jobs in a foreign country. These type of retailers are not a necessity.
190,000 jobs on offer as of 8.3.12 says it all.
An inquiry into business is in line with an election 15 months away.

I don't see why the present situation in the economy, is such a bad
thing. Australian private debt is way too high. Finally people are
putting something away for a rainy day and paying off debt.

We live in a market economy, so industry needs to adjust to consumers
and not the other way around. IMHO we have been massively overserviced
by retail, as any old fool can rent a shop and flog their
wares. Our retailers have been buying cheap and flogging expensive
for years, now consumers are waking up that they have been ripped
off, as the internet exposes the rip offs. So the gravy train for
retail is ending, it will have to become competitive and alot of
shops will have to close. So be it.

Meantime there are plenty of jobs, for those who bother with a
qualification. I just had a look at the West job ads, they are
looking for IT people, welders, mechanics, electricians, plumbers,
welders, truckies, the list goes on and on. If people prefer the
dole to obtaining a skill, well so be it. Perhaps they have just
had it too good for too long. That is really our problem in Australia,
we have made working optional, for the gravy train is
large enough, that plenty need not bother.

One of our biggest problems is the mentality that the Government will bail every irresponsible citizen out. The miserable failure of Greek Socialist Governments should send some sort of warning to Australia. Blinded however by the luxury of cashing in on the Mining boom our own compulsive spenders will be dumb enough to blame others if they are allowed to continue running up debt. The handouts to compensate for the idiotic no more rain tax are not sustainable but will fool those looking for another quick handout. They will continue to vote for our ruin poiring money into hopeless wind farms and gw high priest pockets.

upcomming problems

UK Government prepares for Euro collapse
and nuclear financial fallout of Moody’s
officially declaring a Greece default..on their sovereign debt.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_10/03/2012_432212
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2012/03/09/moodys-declares-greece-default-updated-92982/

which means..some will need to pay big bucks
by selling off assets

but as usual the govt will put the bill onto the people

bonus all round

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5005&page=0
why?
http://theintelhub.com/2012/03/09/65896/

they..collect todays value dollars
repay in hyper..inflated dollars..tomorrow

funny
how rent asistance
only increases the rent paid..on the same hovel

that govt lends money at intrest..
to subsidize the landlords tax exemption..[what worsens the resultant lies]

LINK ONE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzFsMZd9MOU
The biggest ponzi scheme in history,
as reported from MSNBC - yes even the mainstream media..can't miss this MULTI-TRILLION DOLLAR FRAUD !

LINK TWO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQZbOY5Q3ZU&feature=related
15 Trillion Dollar Fraud
Exposed in UK Parliament,..by Lord James of Blackheath:

LINK THREE:
Massive Resignations Have Started:
http://eclinik.wordpress.com/2012/03/03/massive-resignations-have-started-3-0/

LINK FOUR:
http://eclinik.wordpress.com/2011/08/07/1st-global-settlement-completed-obama-et-al-take-it-as-personal-account-the-fed-dole-out-16-trillion-since-barack-obama-sworn-in/

US$16 Trillion being doled out
since O'bummer was put into office.

Recently, the WhitewHoarsehousits released this video of Lord James of BlackHeath urging the House of Lords to conduct an investigation into a possible bank heist to the tune of US$ 15 Trillion.

This is a very significant measure as it is now put on public record, right at the very heart of the British Empire, those "wild rumors" being passed around in the alternative media.

LINK FIVE:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/82473039/GAO-Federal-Reserve-16-Trillion-Emergency-Bailout-Loans-Audit-Report

GAO Federal Reserve $16 Trillion Emergency Bailout Loans Audit Report
It is our understanding that this amount is separate from that DISCUSSED BY LORD JAMES,

but reading the report
suggests parties involved...could be related....lol

who knows
check their family trusts
anyopne remotly connected

with them colluding
fault free bailout/...faux default
that is really a true default...underwritten by your investments

not theirs
stop bailing out drunks

time they paid the rent

Yabby has understood the problem but many, including some on here are
of the belief that all will be well as China will keep on its current
growth path. While they are cutting their growth back to 7 1/2% they
may well have a further reduction forced on them by means of a hard landing.

Whatever happens Australia can expect less income from minerals.
As that happens the government, who ever it is, will have to cut back.

An ALP govt will probably borrow more to avoid reducing the dole and
other welfare schemes, but they will probably cut back on roads,
rail, defense and similar expenditure but not the NBN and global
warming dept expenditure. That would be politically impossible.
They may however be forced to abandon the carbon tax.

A Lib/Nat govt will almost certainly not borrow, and so would have to
cut all of the above plus global warming, co2, the NBN and many of the
welfare schemes, including possibly the dole.

Those sort of cut backs would cause an absolute uproar but the level
of the uproar would be a measure of the maturity of the Australian
population. With the example of Greece before them I would hope that
they would see the writing on the wall and finally get the message
that this low to zero growth, or indeed contraction, is permanent.

Manage your debt or debt will manage you !

I just posted this comment on another thread but thought I would post it here as well, as it's relevant.

I'm curious about this fascination with a surplus.
Of itself, a surplus means little and certainly tells us nothing about the economic health of a country.
In the fifteen years I spent as ceo of medium to large companies in three countries, i can tell you that my boards would have fired me if I had delivered the corporate equivalent of a surplus.
Shareholders would almost certainly have accused me of having a lazy balance sheet.
I'm especially curious as right now Australia's public debt is so low that if we doubled it, Australia would still have among the lowest levels of public debt in the developed world.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

There are many good reasons, Anthony. Firstly, a Govt is not
a company. The lazy balance sheet story was popular before the GFC.
Then, as the tide went out, as Warren Buffett says, we saw who was
swimming naked. Banks called in loans and those companies who had
overborrowed, were the first to go under or be sold off.

Apple has 100 billion cash in the bank. Do you think that their
shareholders want to fire the management? That money is reflected
in their market cap.

But you are also comparing apples and oranges. When a company borrows
money, their return on it should be higher then the cost of funds,
or the management should indeed be sacked. Not so with Govt. Its
simply peed up against another wall, normally with a bit more pork
barreling. Take a look around Govt, they don't spend it so wisely
that we should give them any extra. Why don't they spend some time
doing more with the money that they already receive?

Fortunately for us, Costello paid off our debts, which left Rudd
in a prime position when the GFC did hit. Had he inherited a
situation like Obama did, things would have been very different.

Balanced budgets keep Govts honest. They can't simply take from
the next generation to pee some more pork barrelling against the
wall, in order to win the next election.

Yes Yabby, you are righ there, as for to long now, many have had the privialage of being able to work, if it suits.

Take away the cash and you will see some real changes in these attitudes.

With regards to retailers ripping the people off for years, well, I do agree that some have, however the majority have not, it's just that the running costs of a retail business have increased at ridiculous rates in the past decade or so.

And not just retail either. Go and get a service on your car, the mechanic gets about $25 per hour, get you get charged more like $90 per hour.

Despite this, the owner, in most cases makes less today than five years ago.

Someone mentioned shopping centre nets being out of and, well they are and thus will change, but in the mean time many will go broke.

Even today there are many retailers loosing money, or working for next to nothing, but they can't close as thier structures are so poor they will loose everything.

The next three years will be very interesting.

Anthonyve, I am not a financial wizard, but then neither are the
wizards that have got the world into the current mess.
I think the difference is the governments can magic the pixel money
into existence at the click of a mouse.

I think the problem is that politicians find that they can solve their
immediate problem with the click of a mouse and the temptation is too great.
If you look at the Office of Financial Management web site you can
see the money they borrow by issuing bonds each week, about $2gig.

OUG mentioned the Moodys declaration of a Greek default and quoted the
BBC. Just had a look and there is nothing on the BBC about it.
The page that OUG linked to is there but it is not on bbcnews.com.

Had a look at Moodys web site and they have stated that Greece has
defaulted. Looks like the UK govt might be trying to stop a panic.
The problem is that those who have credit default swaps can now go and
claim on them and it is possible the issuers cannot pay out !

In a couple of months Greece will come cap in hand for another bailout
but I don't think the Germans are in the mood to dip in for it.

Manage your debt or your debt will manage you !

When you go back up the chain a step, the story is no better. I had no choice but to have manufactured in Taiwan, a product we had been producing in Oz for some years. Chrome plated brass, our costs had gone from $3.25 each to over $9.00 each into our store. They were landed into our store in Queensland ex Taiwan, including all freight, & handling costs for $2.00.

Unfortunately marketing requires pretty packaging, that added another $2.00

Delivery cost to retailers oz wide averaged $9.00 per item. It often felt like we worked for the trucking industry.

Total marketing costs, including wages, display stands traveling added $5.00 per item.

Overheads including warehousing & accounting added another $0.90.

All up our 2 dollar item owed us $19.90 by the time it was into our customers store. By the time we added our mark up, we invoiced them for $25.00, which was really a bit low.

So after the retailers 50% or so markup, this $2.00 item sold for $37.50.

Yes I know our world is totally mad, but before you scream rip off, just remember if you went to your friendly local engineer, & had one of these made for you as a one off,there would be no change from at least $50.00, so mass production does save a little.

how about the red/goo..scam or feeding the world?

From Road Salt to Pink Goo,
What’s In the Food?
http://theintelhub.com/2012/03/09/from-road-salt-to-pink-goo-whats-in-the-food/

In the modern-day world in which we live, you never really know to what extent the corrupt globalists will go to profiteer from adding deadly poisons, toxins, drugs, and chemicals to our food and water supply.

Not only do we have to pay attention as consumers to fluoride levels in our drinking water, now we must watch for a whole slew of toxic and gruesome additives in the foods we eat.

Crony capitalism: Green firms
burn through taxpayer dollars,

pay huge executive bonuses, then go bankrupt
http://www.naturalnews.com/035196_crony_capitalism_green_firms_bankruptcy.html

The Obama Administration's green energy development program, which has leveraged billions of taxpayer dollars into high-risk green energy startups, is rapidly turning out to be one of the biggest financial scams on the American people in recent history.

A new investigative report by ABC News has revealed that many of the now-bankrupt green energy companies that received massive taxpayer-funded loan infusions from the Department of Energy (DOE) awarded huge cash bonuses to their executives shortly before crumbling.

what wont we do to get cash?

lol
dont say i didnt try to tell you

*So after the retailers 50% or so markup, this $2.00 item sold for $37.50.*

That is exactly why we need more efficient logistics supply chains
like Bunnings, Hasbeen. Every step that you have described, can
be done better, faster, cheaper, consumers benefit.

Chinese manufacturing is having problems with staffing. The Chinese are not willing to work for 200$ / mth any more they want 400$ / mth. And they are getting it.
Manufacturers have already left for India, where they do not have to pay so much.
OUG meat substitution has been around for a long time. Remember the roo in the stew scandal, in the 70 80's. Abattoirs paying off meat inspectors, simple corruption, this time it is the retailers.
You are better off siting beside a busy road and waiting for some fresh road kill, that way u know what u are getting, and its cheaper.

Physhing for a couple of positive titbits in a hugely bad situation is merely burying your head in the sand.
Grabbing the bull or as in the present situation the cow by the horns & showing her the way to the long yard is the only alternative to improvement in Australia.
For crying out loud, wake up !

Yabby, don't you believe it. As our patent had expired, Burnings were having a very similar item, [read copy] made in a factory near the one we used in Taiwan. They sold it for $42.50 in their shops. The larger an organisation becomes, the more bureaucratic, & less efficient it becomes, just like government.

Have you noticed Coles/Woollies desperately trying to eliminate competition, before it becomes cheaper than them. Much of their cost advantage today is gained by cheep junk imports of often doubtful food.

OUG, what that report didn't mention is that many of those now bankrupt companies, that profited from Obama's generosity, were run by some of the largest donors to his campaign funds.

I find it interesting that much of his huge war chest of election funds comes from them, & from companies profiting from the "alternative energy" scam promoted & supported by Obama's administration, & funded by the tax payer.

579 following the natural order of things, eventually, when we are the poor white trash of Asia, these countries will have a cost base higher than Oz. Provided we have sat on the heads of the fool greens, the jobs will come flooding back, all other things being equal.

I must admit I would prefer that peak oil were true, rather than a myth, so that international freight fuel costs prevented this low wage chasing, but I'm not holding my breath.

The best thing our governments could do would put a 1,000% tax on international phone calls, & bring all our call centre jobs back home as well. Seen any flying pigs recently.

better, faster, cheaper, consumers benefit.
Yabby,
The downside's way too high a price to pay as you can see now. Don't for one moment believe worse is still a long way down the road. The cul-de-sac is just around the corner & the signposts have been in place for a long time. people just fail to read them.

put a 1,000% tax on international phone calls, & bring all our call centre jobs back home as well. Seen any flying pigs recently.
Hasbeen,
I advocated some time ago here on OLO that those who manufacture in sweatshops should have their profits taxed so much till the money equals sweatshop rates.
Telstra are jeopardising Australia's security just to endear themselves to greedy shareholders.
Flying porkies ? Well, I saw the VIP Jet a couple of times last week.

We bye Telstra's high priced commodities, and get sweat shop priced back up.
Who knows if the global market will survive. The only beneficiaries are importers.
The whole thing could take a step backward.
Some of the manufacturers in China that came from America, were asked if the rising costs in China meant they would return to America. The answer was no, they are going to India.

The answer was no, they are going to India.
579,
That's the sad reality but will shareholders curb their greed ? No ! We'll have to do it for them.

*The larger an organisation becomes, the more bureaucratic, & less efficient it becomes, just like government.*

Not in a well run company, Hasbeen. That is exactly the difference
between good and bad management. Cutting waste. Before the
Wesfarmers takeover, Coles was full of waste and poor logistics.
Woolies were miles ahead, because of a much more efficient supply
chain. Even now that continues to go ahead and figures are improving.

Coles/Target/Kmart used to buy from local importers, now they buy
direct from factories overseas. Roadtrains carting freight between
warehouses, can do so more efficiently, cutting what you complain
about, ie freight. The whole structure of Wesfarmers is about making
those supply chains more efficient, consumers benefit, so do the
companies that use those management tactics.

*The downside's way too high a price to pay as you can see now*

What downside, Individual? That consumers are getting a better deal?
That farmers input costs are lowered by lower input costs? That
waste is cut out of supply chains?

Consumers drive all this, people like you lot, who want lower prices
when you go shopping.

Yes shareholders benefit too. Anyone who has a super fund, would
have an indirect interest in Coles and Woolies. Is your super fund
making money for you, such a bad thing?

What downside, Individual?
Yabby,
Check out the past and ye shall see. Consumerism does not have a safety valve. Whereas supply vs demand doesn't need one.
The downside is the end result, when China & India are no longer exploitable & Australians haven't got three farm labourers to work our produce. When Australians have so much education that they're too qualified to work. That's when the price is too high.
How many more industries do you like to see go to other countries ? I think we would be better off sending our academics over there instead of our work. That way we would be assured continued work after the people in those countries have been dumbed down as much as here.smarter countries.
The downside is an Australia on it's knees bowing to it's overseas owners.

*When Australians have so much education that they're too qualified to work.*

Well Individual, we have exactly the opposite problem. Anyone with
skills is snapped up, the unskilled have a problem as there are
only so many hamburgers to flip.

America has exactly the same problem. American industry is short
of skilled workers, the oversupply is in unskilled labour.

Countries with a skilled labour force, like Germany, Switzerland,
Scandinavia etc, are all still doing pretty well.

Yabby,
I specifically stated "educated" not skilled.
The problem is everyone gets educated but no-one's got the skill to hold a spanner.

Individual, that is purely a question of what is studied. No, we
don't need more philosophers and arts degrees. But we are still
short of engineers, geologists, accountants, doctors, nurses,
agricultural graduates, etc, all taught at universities.

Yabby,
i'm not trying to wind you up by contradicting you but my experience is that we have an excess of those people you mention. Where the real stumbling block is that so many of them aren't competent despite their qualifications.
On top of that we haven't got tradesmen who know how to hold a hammer & even less as to how to swing one.
I'm only a basic tradie crap kicker yet it is I & my fellow crap kickers who regularly modify engineers' designs to make it all work. It is everyday trades who keep it all going not the incompetent conniving bureaucrat hangers-on.
We need to create more hands-on training jobs & less pointless desk jobs. Desk jockeys cost money, workers create it. And please don't tell us how well some internet whiz kids are doing unless you can tell us how cyber whiz can build houses & roads & grow produce.

Yes, that's right Yabby, we need engineers, but as I pointed out in my earlier post, the kids coming out of high school, with excellent results, on the bit of paper they are given, can't even handle an electrical trades course.

Hell, kids coming out of intermediate high school used to have the math & physics to do those. Back then we only went to matriculation to get a university scholarship from someone.

Now the kids out of year 12 no longer have enough math for a trade, let alone a B Sc in something requiring real science. They do environmental science, where regurgitating the course notes will get you a credit, & a nice job warming a seat in a council, or the Dept of Environment.

Yabby a survey at that hamburger joint will probably find more arts graduates than "unskilled", although it is probably reasonable to consider arts grads as unskilled, truth be known.

Once we had a lot of pretty smart tradies. They had gone of to a trade at 15, due to economic the pressures of the day. With a trade, & a high IQ they were very innovative. Most of our graduate engineers don't get the hands on experience, to be practical enough to be innovative, & most tradies today aren't that smart.

Not so Individual, we need both. Let me give you an extreme. How
would you design a 747, without engineers? Are you just going to
guess as you go along?

Just because where you work, there are some poor engineers, does
not mean that engineers are not required.

If the shire builds a bridge and the bridge collapses as it was
poorly designed, the engineer is responsible. If they let you
design the bridge and you made it up as you went along, clearly that
would not really be good enough.

Now mining engineers, electrical engineers etc are all responsible
for lots of lives. If the mine pit collapses or the underground
supports collapse, people die. All that we are doing is checking
that those who are doing the calculations, actually have some
qualifications.

Would you trust me to operate on your brain, if I told you that
I was a good brain surgeon and had learned it as I went along?

Yabby,
your last post is an irrelevant & irresponsible argument.
So far as 747's go I happen to know a little bit about them from my Pilot mates who fly them.
They are worked on by engineers with sense not Uni graduates with papers.
Same goes for Doctors & indeed all professions.
You can not instill a sense of responsibility by constantly excusing Australia's low standards in many professions. Why do you think the brain drain has come to a trickle & is gradually reversing to import ?
Let's not beat around the bush here, Australians need to wisen up & wisen up fast.

*They are worked on by engineers with sense not Uni graduates with papers.
Same goes for Doctors & indeed all professions*

Well yup, the kid who comes out of university is a bit like the kid
whose just passed the driving test. They still have a great deal
to learn about driving.

I'm sure that when Leightons hire another bunch of new graduates,
they don't let them make the big decisions. They will size them
up and get them to work on projects with experienced people, so that
they gain experience.

I'm not sure why you think that a novice should know everything.
They don't, but at least they understand the fundamentals and
the basic science and calculations, or they should never have
been given that piece of paper

I've run transformer manufacturing and electric motor manufacturing companies in Australia, Thailand and China, and a division of ABB in Hong Kong.
I have found Aussie engineering graduates to be extremely well prepared for private enterprise.
Of course they lack experience, but those I have led have all had a strong work ethic, a thorough knowledge of their discipline and a high degree of precision in their work.
I have recruited and managed electrical, mechanical and mecatronics engineers, and I must say that I have been extremely impressed in recent years with the mecatronics stream that combines mechanical and electrical engineering.
Honestly, I would rate Australian engineering graduates as second to none.
Unfortunately, I can't say the same for Business, particularly MBA grads, as in Australia, most unis use the Harvard Case Study method of teaching in these disciplines.
Generally these grads are excellent with spreadsheets, but have little understanding of leadership or even basic practical management theory.
I found that engineering grads tended to be come better managers more quickly because they got out of their offices and into the factory, and so more quickly figured out which way was up.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

So let's look a that 50% mark up from retailers.

Firstly most retailers mark ups are higher than 50%.

You must remember, a 50% mark up, equates to a 33.3% gross profit.

Net is generally about 10%, wages, around 20%, running costs etc, 5%, advertising 5%, So far they are about 7% behind and they havnt made a dollar for themselves yet.

This is the problem facing retail a present, all the costs of doing business are simply to high which means prices are to high.

The end result will be far fewer retailers.

Sorry, a typo there, I said net about 10% this should have been rent about 10%.

Rehctub, now you might understand, why internet businesses are
such an attractive option, for both consumers and business owners.

People can shop 24/7, whilst at home sipping a cup of tea or
whatever. The rest is all about electronics and logistics.

No expensive rents, it can be any old warehouse anywhere really.
No overdressed staff standing around powdering their noses.
Even advertising is cut to the bone, as it costs virtually nothing
to send out 50'000 emails letting customers know the latest deal.

Just take their money, done efficiently with say Paypal, electronics
prints the label, stick it on the box and out the door it goes.

Posted by Yabby, Monday, 12 March 2012 7:15:21 AM

" ... Rehctub, now you might understand, why internet businesses are
such an attractive option, for both consumers and business owners. ... "

Well done again everyone for a top quality thread with some great comments from a number of contributors.

To continue on from another well balanced and insightful comment from *Yabby* which I have come to enjoy on a regular basis, I thought to share something of a sideline business which my wife and I have been working on for some time.

Whilst hampered by the legal demands of immigration which exist between Australia and Indonesia for an excessive period of time, we are now an Australian family and the burden of "red tape" has declined sufficiently for us to engage in more lucrative pursuits.

Whilst my wife is well enmeshed in the process of becoming educated in Australian english and those other skills necessary to independently function here, they are not so onerous as to prevent her (with some assistance from me) to pushing up her own small business.

Schooled from an early age in traditional handicraft, and plenty of opportunities to expand this though a study of the markets here and study of the old school crafts of crochet, knitting and sewing through family here, she has developed an interesting new fusion of techniques to create a range of product to which we believe she can legitimately claim copyright upon impending entry to the online markets.

In the preliminary stages of set up, most of which is not deductible from a tax point of view, we purchased fine gold and fine silver from the Perth mint in 2007, exported these to Indonesia and utilised them as a so called "Customs assist," employing the indigenous artisans directly to hand produce multiple copies based on our prototypes, which includes other locally sourced materials such as copper and seed beads, all of which can be procured locally at a retail price much cheaper than that which can be sourced even by direct import into Australia that we are aware of, transported the goods ourselves by plane on our family visits and imported to Aust, with some duty and G.S.T. on some imports, stored the product locally at home and will retail direct via Ebay AU (with regional limitations applied) and or by MadeIt.COM.AU ourselves.

Even the simplest piece in the collection takes a skilled and practiced hand more than 2 hrs to complete. We have not noted any of the same product here in Aust anywhere but "commesurate" stuff retails here from between $AU50 - $AU80.

Our total costs per unit for the objects, including materials, duties and taxes do not exceed $AU5 per piece and whilst a final sales price hasn't been resolved, we will likely enter the market from between $AU25 - $AU35, but may consider auctioning with a nominal reserve.

With the advent of the internet, the shoe string start up business hasn't entirely disappeared if the nature of the business lends itself to being able to do everything yourself.

Oh, we pay the local artisans at double the local economy rate initially and consistent with Indonesian practice and our current notion of what constitutes "Fair Trade", they will receive an additional 10% bonus based on the Australian retail sales price which will no doubt make for a lot of happy faces next ChristMass if not sooner.

Great to hear, DreamOn, and all power to your better half.
It's that kind of entrepreurship that we need.
Let us know when her website is up.
My better half can't resist anything to do with crafts.
Cheers,
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Yabby, I am well aware of the cost savings sith Internet shopping.

My problem with it is 'what about the jobs it takes away'?

There are a few more issues with INT shopping.

Firstly, there is no GST if bought from OS and less than $1000.

Why should local traders have to charge GST on similar items?

The next big problem is that of 'try before you buy'.

There ia a problem with shoppers wasting shop assistants time trying, or requesting info on items, without any intention of buying.

Remember, the business owner pays for that wasted time.

I believe smart phones are used to copy ba codes, then you simply go online and find the best deal.

By all means do ha, but please don't waste someone PAID TIME while you're at it.

Carsales.com is another killer.

Most shoppers don't realize that EVERY ENQUIERY not sale, costs the car yard $35, sale or no sale.

People today already complain about bad service, just wait a few more years and see what happens.

Peoples quest for a bargain will ultimately come at a price.

*My problem with it is 'what about the jobs it takes away'?
*

Rehctub, when I bought this little patch of dirt, there were around
15'000 farmers in WA delivering grain. There are now 5000. The rest
had to move on and learn new skills. City people will have to
learn to do the same. Anyone with IT skills for instance, to operate
all those internet stores, will be snapped up. Aged care is short
of staff, so is childcare. Then the mines are sucking them up,
with alot more to go.

Yes, people now can check barcode numbers and shop around. It keeps
retailers honest.

But all sorts of new jobs are being created by technology. Take
3d printers. There is enormous potential there for instance.

It seems to upset you that the world that existed 25 years ago, has
now changed. Well the most permanent thing in life is change.
That is the reality of it.

There could be a host of problems with online trading, but you can not hang on and hope that the event reverts, it may not happen.
Not all retailers will shut their strip shop down, they will work online from the shop, and enhance their chances of a sale. Depends what you are marketing.

Dreamon said;
other locally sourced materials such as copper and seed beads,

Did you seek the OK from customs & Aqis regarding the seed beads ?

Good question *Bazz* but no need in the instance of plastics and metals. "Seed Beads" doesn't in this instance literally mean materials that come from plants.

Otherwise, we always provide full disclosure down to the last rupiah with supporting banking and financial evidence, all clearly marked, wrapped and packed in see through material for those whose role it is to safeguard our borders. Occasionally advanced notification is required, and other wise I always bring down real some real quality coffee and seek the services of the "Red Channel" which includes a regular spraying of our footwear.

..

Interesting point, as there was a customs blitz on traditional materials made from things like banana etc at one point but it doesn't apply to our situation.

Fortunately, whereas in my youth I was largely ignorant of the legal nature of the system, that is no longer the case.

And whilst not yet qualified as a lawyer, I have done sufficient legal studies at a tertiary level to discern, read and understand the relevant acts to bring myself up to speed, and sufficiently reasonable to know when to consult with a specialist, as and when required.

It's not just retail.
Our entire society is undergoing a change at least as profound as that caused by the industrial revolution.
Such things as:
- internet;
- aging/longevity;
- ease of travel;
- speed of computing;
- the emerging biotech industries;
- the reduction in economies of scale.
Sadly, there will be losers as sell as winners.
But one thing is clear, there's no going back.
I think that anybody who claims they can predict what the final picture will look like is kidding themselves.
So, hold on folks; we're strapped into the roller coaster whether we want to be or not.
But I think DreamOn's advice is sound.
Take stock of our assets and stay flexible.
One particularly good thing is the ease with which we can re-educate ourselves now.
One example, on Itunes U, I can download hundreds of hours of lectures by many of the world's leading professors, at a couple of bucks a throw.
Virtually all the classics of English literature are available through the Guttenberg projects for free.
Knowledge, for the first time in human history, has become democratised.
Right now, I am watching a semester of Greek Mythology lectures from Stamford university for a total price of $30.
One can download a complete language course for under a hundred bucks.
It ain't all bad news.
Anthony
Http:://www.observationpoint.com.au

Yabby & Anthonyve,
If young Australians are so switched on how then is it that we can't get enough competent techos & tradies ?
The reality here is that yes we have some excellent talent but they're so outnumbered by the opposite. That was my argument.
A handful of good things can not outweigh tonnes of not so good.

Hi Individual,
I'm not so sure that they are outnumbered by the not-so-good.
I guess I don't move in the same circles as you, but, honestly, most young people I meet are certainly no worse than my generation; in fact, most are probably better.
Sure there is a shortage of tradespeople, but that has quite a bit to do with the fact that when times are good, many businessses couldn't be bothered with apprentices.
We've had this cycle many times before in Australia. In good times, businesses don't want to be bothered with the effort and inconvenience of apprentices, and then, in bad times, they whinge about a shortage of trades people.
I'm sure many will disagree with me, but ask yourselves this question. When companies do advertise available apprenticeships, do they get plenty of applications?
And the answer is yes, they do.
So, if there is a shortage of trades people, don't blame the kids; blame the companies.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Anton, starting an apprenticeship is not the problem, the problem is finishing one.

There are so many factors at play when it comes to finishing an apprenticeship.

Firstly, there are the non apprentice mates, often earning big bucks in comparison, doing low skilled jobs.

Sure you and I both know it short lived, but try telling the kid with 200 bucks less in their wallet each week.

Then there is the uncertainty in business today.

With consumer trends, government back fllips and IR challenges, many businesses either change direction, downsize, or even cease operating during the four year term.

Four years can be a long time in business these days.

Another huge problem is kids attitudes towards their apprenticeship.

So many today only want a trade so as to work in the mines and earn big bucks.

They fail to understand that they have to get there first.

Having the highest unskilled wages in the world doesn't help.

Individual, I'm not saying that young Australians are so switched on.
I think that we have some wonderful young Australians who are turning
into great tradesmen etc. But Australia has never really further
educated enough of its young people, migrants have been relied on
for as long as I can remember, to make up the shortfall.

What we have is a whole bunch of Australians with a sense of
entitlement and expectation about life, but who don't want to
put in the effort to improve themselves by further education.

Steve Meyer has started an interesting thread on that. It happens
in countries with resources, unlike countries with none, who realise
that human resources is all that they have and so make the best of
them.

I recently saw the drop out figures when it comes to apprenticeships
and they are huge. There must be a reason. So I think that our
system needs and overhaul, for there are plenty of jobs out there,
they just need people with skills to fill them

The real reason for the low number of apprentices is that no-one can afford to put one on.
Selfish, short-sighted, dumb-ar$ed Unions have out-priced apprenticeships.
Education hammered the peg in even further by dumbing down every potential apprentice

How very interesting.
On the one hand we have rechtub saying that one of the reasons we have so few trade people is because the apprenticeship wages are so low that kids don't finish.
On the other hand we have individual claiming that "dumb assed unions" have pushed apprenticeship wages so high that employers can't afford them.
SO I rang my nephew who has started a mechanic apprenticeship with one of the Holden dealers in Brisbane.
rechtub is right.
wages for apprenticeships are horribly low.
No way a kid could survive without living at home.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Is the US giving nuclear bunker busters to Israel?

Will these nuclear weapons be used against Iran?

Will the US media conceal the use of nuclear weapons
behind stories of conventional "superbombs"?
http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/new_nuclear_weapons/loyieldearthpenwpnrpt.html

who knows
http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_12/bunkerbuster_dec02

so hands up
who thinks

we still don't have a problem

Anton, in indi's defense, the costs associated with employing apprentices are what detracts from employing them, not so much the actual wages that the apprentice gets paid.

Apprentice actual wages have always been low, as I can remember when I was a 1st year butcher, my mate was a concreter making almost my weeks pay, in one day.

The best way for governments to increase skills, would be to employ apprentices themselves and, unlike to countless labor hire rip off companies, charge them at at a cost recovery only fee.

At least then, if business conditions change, you are not stuck with an apprentice.

If you have ever employed an apprentice yourself, just try getting rid of one, it's not easy.

wages for apprenticeships are horribly low.
Anthonyve,
So is their productivity, it's all relevant. You'll also find that rehctub is alluding to the fact that apprenticeship pay is way lower than some of the quick-buck jobs with not much future other than those workers becoming a burden for the taxpayer later in life.
Someone who completes an apprenticeship is almost certainly a person with a purpose for life.

This is where I think that the education system can really play a
role. One really good teacher, explaining things in the right way,
could make a huge difference to a kid's future.

Lets face it, when I was 15 and 16, we were more interested to
figure out how to get our hand up a girl's skirt, then about future
careers etc. Most of what we were told, we took no notice of. But
some things did stick.

Now if at that stage in life, we'd had a teacher who went through
various life outcomes, in say Dollar terms, we would have sat up
and taken notice. Become an accountant, this is where you are
likely to land up in 25 years. Become an electrician, these will
become your options in 25 years and this is what you will earn.
Become a know nothing and this is what you will have to accept,
along with these crappy jobs. etc.

Some parents do this stuff but a great many don't. But it might
get kids thinking about their futures and change some lives if
it happened at schools.

For the sake of an hour of their time at school, I think it would
be a worthwhile investment.

But it might get kids thinking about their futures and change some lives if
it happened at schools.
Yabby,
Saturation evidence has proved that teachers are an abject failure in this. Anthonyve even admits that teachers are literally impotent at policy change because educrats are outwitting them. So, it's pointless to look at teachers for support.
A 2-year non-military National Service is the closest to a perfect solution for this.
We do not need to drum in individual rights, that comes naturally. What we need to drum in is individual responsibility.

Yabby, although what you suggest has some relevance, it simply won't work.

When I was 16, an electrician and a butcher were on much the same wage, some 30+ years latter, a butchers wage is $22 per hour, whereas an electrician is more like $45.

Now in the real world, a butcher earns about $1000 to $1200 per week, overtime included, whereas an electrician, working the same amount of hours earns about $2500.

This has all been driven by mining, as any trade wanted by miners, leads to increased competition in the local market.

A regular mechanic (petrol cars) is on about $25 per hour as they are not wanted in the mines, whereas a desiel mechanic is on more like $50 per hour as they are in high demand by miners.

It is this very reason why I believe a levy on mining payrolls, used to subsidize non mining wages would be a better option than the proposed mining tax.

Unfortunately, labor's motive for the tax is to replace the billions they have wasted.

The emerging problem is that non mining business is running out of steam and, if this is not addressed, sooner rather than latter, it may well be game over.

I would hate to be a teacher trying to predict the future for the next 25 years, as we will most likely have next to no retail/manufacturing/aguculture left and the full effects of the proposed mining tax, along with the worlds largest carbon tax would have been felt by the mining industry.

Interesting times ahead, hardly a time for playing ruelet with our fragile economy.

But what would we know.