Some of us have been warning you for a couple of years now that the future for workers her was on shaky ground, and that trouble was brewing.

While many of you laughed, who is laughing now, because unless you are completely blind, or ignorant, you will realize that the wheels are worse than wobbly, they are in fact very very close to falling off.

First Ford, now Holden have cried poor and government can't prop up one, but not the other, so who's next.

Furthermore, while the recent discussion from FWA to increase low paid service industry workers by up to 40% may be a shot in the arm for many of these workers, it has the potential to be a shot in the heart for many businesses, both large and small.

Businesses that are nit going broke, are going elsewhere because Australia has become just to hard to make money any more.

We have to accept that unskilled wages are to high, or, we WILL FAIL.

I am also of the opinion that we have gone to far now to recover as business no longer has the confidence to borrow.

Even the mining industry, our life blood, is strting to think twice, due mainly to out of control compliance.

Then the Idiot Labor government puts a carbon tax on Manufacturing, which will add about $400 per car produced. Then the hypocrites try to lecture us that they need to rescue the car manufacturing industry.

Hi All.......this is the design on jobs (no wishful thinking or lies).

Just a bit of background.

We are selling assets, borrowing and allowing massive environmental damage to occur with mining.......all because Australia is panicking for income to support our growing population's appetite for infrastructure and jobs.

Our manufacturing is collapsing, our World rankings of our universities and school leavers academic standards, are falling.

As Paul Keating said, " population growth will lead to unemployment, if you don't grow the economy ". The opposite is also true, that you can have full employment if you don't grow the economy........if you stabilise population growth.

Denmark with a basically stable population of 5 million , export all over the world. How ? Because they invest in education, technology and efficient, high end capital intensive manufacturing.

Australia can't, because we invest in more people.........which is an investment in more pollution.

The billions spent on growth infrastructure and services, must be spent alternatively on education, health and emerging technology.

Forget "bank" and Business Council economists pushing for more population growth.........this is the last thing we need.

Cheers,

Ralph

Yes Ralf, you are right there.

The rot started when governments decided to offer assistance to families, which was brought about by people having families that they simply could not afford.

This policy also placed preasure on wages, as there became this thought that why should I work for that much, when I just need to have three kids, sit at home, and receive a similar net amount.

It stands to reason that if you don't have to work, many will play the system so they don't have to.

Prior to this, those who wanted kids, often worked extra hours so as to be able to afford them.

Then came the push for less hours, as the dogodders decided that it was only fair that dads get More time to spend with their kids. Let's face it, five ten hour days, and two days off each week was not that bad.

Of cause we all wanted more time, and now we could have it both, as the earning that were lost, were often topped up through the family assistance.

Unfortunately, many people don't realize that everything comes with a price.

The price of this is where we are now.

You may well suggest it's the beginning of the end, but the beginning started a long time ago and i fear we are now to far gone to come back.

People have this mentality that when times get tough, all you need to do is increase wages.

What they don't understand is that wages, along with every other expense, must come from profits, otherwise the business owner is paying more in wages, yet taking a pay cut themselves.

It just can not go on that way.

Right now, many small business owners ar questioning if it is all worth it any more, and that's the worrying part.

I think the only hope we have is to find a way to collect more taxes, without inflicting more pain.

Other than in the mining sector, nobody has disagreed with you about the impending jobslide rehctub, the disagreement has been about the cause.

Your idea that we should create a working poor so the rich can continue to live the lifestyle they have become accustomed to is not the answer but no manner of discussion with you will change your view. That is accepted.

It is the whole economic system that needs a re-hash including the modern religion of neo-liberal thinking of which I am happy to be an atheist.

rehctub,

Perhaps you should look to the American system for a guide. The U.S. has almost made an artform of producing people referred to as the "working poor". Thank goodness we have universal health care, because they don't over there. Added to that, they seem to be able to convince these workers to consistently vote against their own interests.

Don't you think it's instructive that the buying power of wages in the U.S. have stalled at the same rate they were in the early seventies - and that American manufacturing is in a state of gross decline (so much so that their economy now relies in great part on cheap imports for China)

And all this under a continuing bipartisan regime (starting with Clinton) to relegate many workers to the "working poor".

If people ever get the idea it's best to bye Australian, there will not be any problem. Au built cars were down 30% or so last year. Money for the automakers is for retooling. GMH in America has had its best year ever last year.
Lower wages for unskilled is not on, what do you call unskilled.
Not to many jobs around that don't need training.
Top end wages are the ones that need decreasing.
I doubt if there is anything spectacular at hand.

Yes it has started already.Just what we needed,a CO2 tax and a totally incompetent Labor Govt that spends like a drunken sailor.

More unemployment and more debt to the international banksters.

Pelican,

This is not a bosses vs employees issue. With the dollar as it is Aus employees must be close to the highest paid in the world. With manufacturing in China improving continuously, the choice is either to go bankrupt or reduce staff costs. If productivity cannot be increased due to an inflexible labor system, companies mechanise or downsize.

Holden put of 100 casuals, is that what we are talking about.

Hi All the above is so true and we are selling prime land to multinationals and companies controlled by governments for food production and minerals.
We are selling our souls and oneself

SM
I am not having a go at bosses, and I am not in total disagreement with your comments other than expanding on it ie. all levels of income should reduce. Can you imagine the problems that might arise if only one small section of the economy has to tighten their belts while the rest continue on as usual?

We see it in our political leaders who are only bipartisan when it comes to the head nodding around 30% payrises while asking the lowest paid to tighten their belts or blaming the poor for competitive disadvantages.

As I said it is the whole system including neo-liberal thinking around free markets of which the rot started with Keating who forgot his grass roots and the inherent problems with rampant capitalism. It is impossible to compete in a market where the rules and wage levels are disparate, so don't try and do it. There are many ways to increase competition on prices without bowing to this free trade nonsense. Does anyone ever ask why is it if Australians are paid so well compared to other nations as you argue, why there is an expectation to pay lower prices for the same goods?

While free trade does to some extent help raise the standards of living in some of these nations, it also serves to increase poverty. It is an individual case by case situation dependent on the major players involved especially around agribusiness and manufacturing

No 579, that's only one case.

You see, the risks in small business are far greater today than ten years ago.

In many cases, businesses have had to slash margins in order to stay competitive.

There are many reasons for this, the dollar and Internet direct sales being just two.

Also, at the same time they have had to get their head around IR laws and pay additional wages and employee entitlements.

The end result for many has been loss of profits. (owners wages)

Now the worrying part of this is that there will be less people willing to take that risk and, considering they are our largest employer, collectively, where do you propose the future jobs will come from.

Mining won't last forever, and in any case, labor is doing it's best to excelerate that.

We recently came of a construction boom. This boom drove wages to record highs, driven by the supply V demand issue.

Well, the demand has gone, but the wages stay. Why?

What is unskilled.
I know a person working for a biscuit factory. Their job is to stand there and reject any biscuits that don't look right.

$25 per hour

You're kidding!

Another works as a lackie at the entertInment center. Casual, $22 per hour.

Sundays, $44 per hour.

This is the problem, unskilled wages are so high, it is little wonder why there is a skill shortage.

Why bother when you can earn that sought of money, while listening to your favorite band on your earphone.

Now you can disagree with me, and I respect your views, howeve, I will simply say to you all. WATCH THIS SPACE!

Pelican,

Making flexible working hours might mean a reduction in penalty rates, but enable more hours to be worked, and more productivity. Highly skilled workers and good managers are not as threatened by unemployment, but salaries also decline.

Labor is risking the jobs of the unskilled, and making more unemployed poor.

Pelican, I agree that ALL LEVELS of wages should be reduced.

The mining industry has created a faulse labour environment, in a few ways.

Some years ago, about the early 2000's, they started to pay huge wages to lure out top line traddies..

This allowed the less competent traddies to step up and fill the void, whereby many of these (now top tradesmen) were a few years earlier almost unemployable, due to the lack of skills.
No doubt we have all had a problem with these guys, you know, not really sure what's wrong, resulting in you paying their time for searching and or making and receiving phone calls

The other proble caused by the mines is the perception that many now have that, it's ok, I will get a job in the mines. The lowest paid are usually on about $90K per year, 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. Try competing with that if you own a business.

Now while that's great for the mine workers, it makes the hiring of staff for regular businesses, say hospitality or retail, almost impossible.

In fact, many caffees and restaurants don't open Sunday's of public holidays, as it simply is not worth it. Now that's a shame, because most of the staff, despite liking the wages would rather work for the time and a half so they at least have a job, as they realize, unlike the government, that the business can't affor it.

Remember, when a rest closes for the day, none of the staff get paid

Now as for us chasing the cheapest price, it's all due to our standard of living, it's very high.

The trouble is, this high standard of living has been passed on the employers.

I hold the belief that governments motives are to get people of assistance, by increasing wages and placing the burden of finacial assistance on to the business.

As I said in an earlier thread, 2012 will be th last year in business for many.

The writing is on the wall.

*As I said it is the whole system including neo-liberal thinking around free markets of which the rot started with Keating who forgot his grass roots and the inherent problems with rampant capitalism. It is impossible to compete in a market where the rules and wage levels are disparate, so don't try and do it.*

Pelican, I will always give you a gold star for empathy and meaning
well, but when it comes to understanding economics, you really
are a sad case :)

Luckily for us, Keating and not you was treasurer at the time.

Now imagine if farmers, who export most of what they produce, still
had to buy their machinery and other inputs at massively inflated
prices. The extra costs would send them broke en masse.

Wages are only a smallish component of modern manufacturing. We don't
buy our headers from China for instance, we buy them from America
from the John Deere factory, where you have the most innovative and
amazing new technology producing these machines.

We used to make them, we just could not compete. Our farmers now
benefit from all this new technology, it makes them more productive.

Manufacturing today is about megaplants, highly automated, running
24/7, with increasingly complex technology. You land up with
cheaper and better products, everyone benefits. The investment
in these kinds of megaplants simply cannot be justified in Australia,
with a population of a piddly 21 million.

You, seemingly want to send us back to the days of the screwdriver,
hammer and spanner. Sorry, but those days of manufacturing are over, unless
you want us to go back to crappy, overpriced, underperforming
inputs, which will make Australian agriculture totally uncompetitive
in the world of global sales.

Pelican, much as you mean well, the unintended consequences of
what you propose, would be quite frightening to any modern day farmer.

That is just farming.... The same principle applies to other
industries.

What we are seeing here is what happened in the US from about 2007 as
the price of oil rose and caused the switch to ethanol. They use
maize to make it in the US and as maize is used in many foodstuffs it
had a big effect on the price of food.
As the price of oil rose it started consuming more and more of their
GDP. The same has happened in Europe as the higher cost of fuel took
away their GDP and they were no longer able to repay their debts or the interest on the loans.
Growth stopped and it is quite likely that, averaged over the world,
it will never restart.
They were warned but the bankers and politicians knew better and just kept borrowing.

Our government is doing exactly the same, borrowing about $2,000,000,000 every week.
Likewise we are eating into our GDP at a faster rate than the benefit
we are getting from the mining. Thats why the government needed the
mining tax. The mining tax was renegotiated and is now not really
enough so now you know why Julia went back on the carbon tax promise.

Globalisation is ending but it will not be quick enough in
regenerating our manufacturing. We need to push it along by bringing
back some tariffs industry by industry.

I suspect that very few economists understand the real situation but
there is an increasing number that do and hopefully they will start
to have influence where it counts. Most economists believe that we
are living on a magic pudding and higher prices will make more oil and coal.

Where do the politicians come into all this ? Well I suspect they are
not really understanding just what is happening, certainly I suspect
that the RBA and Treasury are not aware of the GDP factor.
It may be they do but like most at those levels haven't a clue what to do about it.

To all subscribers
We are now a de-regulated economy which means that our government's have progressively relinquished the control mechanisms over the last 30 odd years. We are now totally subject to the volatilty of the global market economy and are trapped in the considerable gap between the internal costing of our own economy and that of the very poor countries. Our consumer market has been flooded with cheap product which is manufactured in free export zones in China, Vietnam. Indonesia, Philipines etc. at labour costs as little as $A2 per day. As a result, our existing manufacturing base has been anihalated and left Australia with a huge legacy of under-employment.There is no way that the politicians of any persuasion can "create" jobs under these circumstances. To exacerbate this situation our state government's have made very poor bargains in the granting of licences for the extraction of our natural resources. Correct me if i'm wrong but as little as 15% net gain to Aust. from the billion's going to mining companies who employ only 1.5% of our workforce.The ABS. shows the current account to be around $A21 billion. Add this all together if you can.If you are interested to know where I am coming from I respectfully recomend reading Naomi Klines book The Shock Doctrine.
DEN71

Correction: The ABS shows Aust. current accout DEFICIT to be around $A 21 billion. sorry! i'm showing my age. DEN71

Yes Den71, and we also have a government in denial, trying very hard to convince Joe average that things are fine and that they will somehow produce a magic pudding that will reboot out manufacturing industry.

While I understand governments desire to keep propping up the car industry, it's a 'dead in the water' industry, due to our inability to compete on this government induced global playing field.

You can live in a million dollar house, on a salary that allows for 80% of that, just so long as you keep borrowing money, but, what happens when your capacity to borrow runs out.

As long as we keep putting money in to something, it will survive, the trouble is, when the wheels eventually fall off, the result will be the same, just the debt will be much higher.

Perhaps the government should stop wasting so much money and buy the car industries to create an industry that we all own, then make it attractive to buy locally made cars. Let's face it, the current price would have to be cheap.

Just imagine if you received a ten cents per litre discount on your fuel if you own a New Australian made car.

They could even have a second and third tier approach, whereby those who can't afford new, can buy a second hand one and receive a smaller discount on fuel.

This type of scheme could be adopted to many indudstries, focussing mostly on goods we don't value add, but could.

Either way, the government needs to rechanel the hand outs and put them in to job creation schemes, rather than just topping up ones lifestyle, or helping another countries lost cause.

Now this government continually crows about what shape we are in, but, go back four years, we had some $20billion in the bank.

Imagine where we will be in another say ten years, if nothing changes.

Butch , this is beginning to sound like an Arjay conspiracy. What is happening around the world, and AU is faring very well in comparison. It's only fair to say we are going to get blowback from the world economic situation. Some businesses are not seeing the turnover, because consumer demand is dull, and they are preferring to pay extra on mortgage. A shift is on toward online shopping, which cuts overhead.
A person watching for odd biscuits, isn't that quality control. You have not demonstrated what an unskilled job is, and what is your preferred pay rate for unskilled work.

579, what do you see that will turn us around.

Is it the continued support of dead in the water companies?

Is it some form of job creation, through governments developing, or assisting to develop inf that value adds something, that won't compete with businesses here already doing a similar thing?

Is it redirecting welfare into job creation, again, not into something already being done?

Imagine if we had government owned/supported factories that catered for the welfare recipients, or at the very least, those who can work, but choose not to.

At the end of the day, simply throwing money at something, that's money you don't have, is not a long term fx, it's a short term band aid.

We have seen the resluts of labor's, just throw money at it approach over the past four years.

Do you think that has been wise?

What is unskilled you ask.

Well, my description would be someone on a broom, or a rake, perhaps a stop go sign. Even a vast numbe of compliance people were unskilled, until they did that Internet course.

No doubt you will pick that to pieces, but go right ahead, as your denial will not solve the problems that are mor than looming, as even some of our pollies are starting to admit we are in for a shaky time.

No doubt if the world economy worsens it will affect Australia, no need for a genius to predict that. Sometimes it makes sense to help a company out, if it is cheaper than paying the dole.
You have a grumble about non skilled workers, somehow you see them as lesser people.
Australia's unemployed is not out of hand 5.2%. 5% is full employment.
Your predictions are just that,a typical knocker.
The banks are sacking people, their profits are not enough, apparently.
Employment is being created we are not stagnant.

579;
There was a report about Toyota the other day.
I cannot vouch for its accuracy but it said that line workers in the
factory get $93000 a year for day shift.

Now having spent a lot of time in a car factory I know exactly what is
involved and I cannot see how the work justifies that pay rate.
There were other entitlements that seemed rather generous to me.
If they are paying these rates perhaps that is why they need the
government on board as paymaster.

The number $500,000,000 seems to be getting thrown around. At a pay
difference of $30,000 that would be a subsidy for about 16,000 workers.
So is that in fact what the taxpayer is doing, subsidising each
workers pay by about $30,000 ?

How many line workers are there in the assembly plants ?
Whatever the number I think the pay rate is too high for that sort of work.
Of course the dole would be more than $30,000 but then most would
find other work.

If I was an unskilled worker I would certainly take up the job.
It is rather repetitious, but many seem to thrive on the work.
Certainly when I was there they seemed a happy lot with only the normal whinges.

I saw that BHP is laying off some people. The copper prices have dipped significantly

This is not good news if the white Knight of Australia falters.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Shoten-calls-Toyota-after-IR-criticism-pd20120202-R4NNW?OpenDocument&src=hp22

Sounds like some days, up to 30% of those Toyota workers are taking
sickies. IMHO, some of these guys are in for a rude shock one day.

In my experience, some workplaces are great, everyone pulls their
weight. In others, workers have a sense of entitlement like I've
seldom seen anywhere in the world. IMHO they need to lose their
jobs, to cop a dose of reality.

We need win -win solutions, where everyone benefits. We don't seem
to have so many of those, more the extremes in either direction.
That invariably ends in tears eventually.

579, you are typical of a labor puppet, Julia and Swan are simply pulling your strings.

Anyone who thinks the jobs market is healthy, is either retired, or, has a secure job, as the REAL WORLD out there aint as pretty as you and your leaders make out.

Something 'full employment' doesn't recognize is 'under employment'.

You see the changes to IR have sent shock waves through many industries, yet left others virtually untouched.

Hospitally has been hard hit, to the point that many restaurants no longer open on Sundays or public holidays, unless they are run by owners or families.

Now while you may well say that's their choice, it is not the choice of many of the staff who just want to work, and were very happy with the past arrangements, but now suffer from either a career change, or, under employment.

The ironic part about it, is that the law makes (labor) don't work in the industry, yet can't help but interfere.

What happened to, no worker will be worse off!

Now as for unskilled, sorry but you have got me wrong.
I don't have a problem with them, nor do I disrespect them, it's just that they are the highest paid in the world, and that is literally killing our industries.

As I have said many times, it is not businesses roll to top up living expenses of the low skilled.

If you want to earn more money, either obtain skills, or work longer hours, if you can find them.

18,000 unfilled jobs, the govt; is bringing in foreign labour. You employ supposed unskilled workers because you need them, but do not want to pay them. I don't know about a labor puppet. it would be the same under any govt; Those stop go people you talk about, are risking their lives standing on the road, but somehow you don't recognize it as a necessary job worth relevant pay. To the ones working in the road construction ,they are very necessary. Your complaint is medieval, wether you like it or not that is how the system works, and is taken into account when in business. Battering unskilled workers, and assuming they can live under a bridge, and eat scraps, may be good for you because for some reason you are superior.

In America, with the legacy of George W Bush's 8 yrs profligate spending on war, unnemployment is at least twice that of Australia.

And our usual bag of whingers still complain.

At least in the US, they try and pull together.

Here in Oz, led by the master whinger, we are spiralling to the bottom.

bonmot,

As I mentioned, the "working poor" have long been a feature of American society...although their presence hasn't been an enhancement to the U.S. economy which continues on a downward spiral.

579, you can continuento hide behind the stats as long as you like, the fact is, we are a down hill spiral and who knows where we will Finnish up.

And never have I mentioned living under a bridge, or surviving on scrap, as that is what welfare is about.

Trouble is, that to has to many claiming assistance, something you seem to think is their given right.

One has to question whether or not this to can be better allocated, perhaps into job creation as I have said before.

And I would suggest the reason for the 1800 unfilled jobs, is because they choose not to take those jobs and, with a welfare system like we have, they don't really have to do they.

rehctub,this can be all solved by having a proper constitution which says,only our Govt has the right to create the new money from nothing to equal our increases in productivity + inflation.Problem solved.But none have the guts to stand up to the counterfeiters.

oui mon amie, Poirot.

Saw rehctub's comments and saw red, butchers engender that visual.

Skipped to the end, still great minds think alike : )

away awhile

Here is an example of how grim the situation is becoming.
A few months back we took a curtain to be modified to a curtain place
in Hornsby. When we went in there was a woman there who turned out to
be the owner. There were six sewing machine places and a couple of
cutting tables. Only the owner was there.
I asked have things been quiet lately.

"Oh yes she said. We used to have 10 employees"
They were all local ladies most who came after they dropped the kids at
school and knocked off in time to pick them up.

It worked out well for them and for us. My husband now has another job
and it is just me. We will probably close because the rent is too much
for just the work I do.
She was obviously unhappy at what she was telling me.

Just recently I rang about another curtain but the phone rang out.

That was a business that had been there at least twenty years, maybe more.

Bass, this is a common problem.

You see there are people everywhere who are happy to work hours that suit them best, just for a few extra bucks to help make ends meet.

Some of these types of workers would be sitting at home, then, the phone rings, and it's a job that just came in, will only take about two hours, so WOULD YOU LIKE TO DO IT, and the workers says yes, that's fine, the extra $35 will be handy right now.

Ok, says the curtain shop lady, BUT WAIT, I can't take that job on now because I have to pay you a minimum of four hours, but the job only takes two.

So the curtain shop owner looses, the WILLING WORKER looses, and of cause, the customer looses.

But, no worker will be worse off!

Another example is the after school kids, many who have lost their jobs now.

This case is about a donut shop, actual case.

They arrive for work at 3.15, the shop closes at 5, so by the time they cllean up and close, that's their two hour shift.

Again, ever ones happy.

But wait, the Minimum shift is now three hours, so guess what, no more job.

So there goes their pocket money, much to the anguish of mum and dad.

Make no mistake, IR laws have caused a lot of irreparable damage to industries, small business owners, kids and workers alike.

But as usual, they don't listen to the people who know, they being they bosses and the workers, as they (labor and the unions) know best.

The looming problem we face, is a decline in risk takers, something that is already well and truly gaining momentum.

Watch this space if you don't believe me.

*The looming problem we face, is a decline in risk takers,*

You are actually correct on that one, Rehctub. Last Wednesday's
AFR carried a story entitled "Pool of new entrepreneurs shrinks"
with data to back it up. In 2010-2011, very low numbers of
new businesses were created, but 286'000 shut their doors,
according to the article.

While we have low consumer confidence, the going will be tough for some businesses. You are expecting business to carry on as normal in a global downturn. There wouldn,t be a downturn if that was the case. Don't worry about getting curtains repaired, bye a new one at half the cost. Just like shoe repairers, thin on the ground. Times will change, no matter what business you are in. If there has been 185,000 businesses close down the they must have found jobs, because they are not in the jobless figures. A good industry to be in is food, people will still eat, even without confidence.

579, What downturn ? I just saw Wayne Swann on the TV telling us how
great things are and that we are the envy of the world !
Low unemployment, everything going marvelously.

Then a little later, there was Bill the IR minister telling us things are tough. Hmmm

No wonder they can't make up their mind who should be boss.

579, you have just idenderfied the main problem, as in your own words, you admit businesses are going to do it tough for a while.

So why not workers as well?

During these tough times, businesses need flexibility, with things like, you work Sundays, get paid normal rates and receive time off mid week in lue.

For casuals, time and a half on Sundays and double time on PH and a legal surcharge, something that is currently illegal in QLD.

You see Sundays and PH are generally the best days for rests and caffees, yet, due to IR laws, many today are closing as there is simply nothing left after the extra wages.

Now while I don't know anyone who was effected by work choices, it must have been bad policy to have drawn so much bad publicity, the trouble is, the new IR laws have gone a full 180 in the other direction.

The ironic part about it all is that we had a system (in hospitality) where staff were happy, bosses were happy, but labor and the unions can't leave well enough alone.

There is a very simp,y rule in business, and that is, if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

Labor needs to learn this.

What is needed is some middle ground, and fast, otherwise it will simply be a case of to little, to late.

Now while you may not believe me, just keep watching and you will see.

The writing is well and truly on the wall.

You see in the retail meat award you can do just that.

Yet in hospitality, you can't. WHY!

I see that the US is creating jobs, whilst Australia is shedding them.

Labor claims to have helped create 750 000 new jobs, but with the unemployment rate higher than when it took office, how many jobs has labor destroyed?

Hopefully the US is in come-back mode, figures are good considering the time of year.
Butch you are going around in circles, you have a conspiracy theory, and some of what you are saying is the responsibility of the state. Why don't you campaign for bye Australian. Isn't that where any shortfalls are.

It was a stated belief of the founder of the Liberal Party ‘Pig Iron’ Bob Menzies that Australia needed a permanent pool of unemployed; he thought 10% was a desirable level. Of course any politician today who openly canvassed such would swiftly find him or herself out of office. The only difference between Menzies and today’s conservatives is, Menzies was willing to say it, and today’s conservatives only think it. What they believe is, create this pool of unemployed to use to keep a lid on wages, particularly the unskilled, while at the same time berating them for not having a job, cutting dole payments to below the accepted poverty level to ‘force’ the unemployed into a nonexistent job. To reinforce their argument the conservatives will point to the malingerers within the system. No matter what, within the unemployed we are always going to have the unemployable and the downright lazy can’t be avoided.
p/s I personally have been gainfully employed for the past 40 years.

Paul,

I have looked hard for any reference by Menzies for a need for 10% unemployment, and would like to see some reference to this.

However, In macro economics it is generally accepted that within most economies that 100% employment is not possible, and that due to various factors such as skills mismatch, breaks between jobs etc, there is a "frictional” level of unemployment at which point increased demand for workers leads not to employment, but to wage driven inflation. 4% is considered normal, and when employment hit 4% under Howard, was when inflation began to be a problem with the economy starting to overheat.

Paul 1405, you must think the conservatives are very smart.

It would appear from your post that they must manage to arrange who will lead the labor party, to make sure they are a twit. Then intentionally loose an election, just so the Labor lot can increase unemployment for them. Obviously they are not too good at increasing unemployment themselves, but that is one of the few skill that Labor have perfected.

Surely it is easier, with their ability to run a prosperous economy profiting all, for them to just do that. In fact I believe they would do that, if it weren't so easy for the populous to forget how bad the last lot of socialists were, & elect them again. They have the help of a lot of young idealists, who have never seen a Labor government, & have to experience one to believe how bad they are.

Don't put much faith in an employment pick up in the US.
Recent information shows that those Credit Default Swaps are about to
hit the wall.
They are in effect an insurance policy against various investment
instruments defaulting. There is an organisation called
International Swaps and Derivatives Association.

A number of large US banks cannot meet calls on their swaps for bonds
etc in Europe and when the Greeks made an agreement for the 50% haircut
(as they call it), we would call it a loss, this organisation said it
was not a default so no payout.
This week they may have to decide that 70% loss is not a default, but
that is likely to generate massive court cases.
If they decide it is a default three major US banks will go down the gurgler.

Have fun !

Hasbeen, and what would you change to do better.

Job adds at a 2 year high. Investment money kicking in.

579, what you won't accept is that wages, along with every other expense, are paid from profits and, when profits are suffering, as they are with many businesses, large and small, wages take a larger chunk than was allocated.

Flexibility is a must if we are to survive.

Now you can believe what you wish as far as how strong our job market is, after all, it's a free world.

What will most likely be required is another round of stimulus, but I can't see this happening as labor is committed to a surplus.

Aother issue will be interest rate cuts, tipped by most to be around 25 points. Great news for many.

However, the banks are most likely to not pass this on, so what good will that be.

Where to from here.

Let's just hope the mining boom continues for many years to come hey.

Butch $37 / kg for lamb loin chops with bone in. No one is buying that sort of stuff. Over priced foods, will stay where they are. I can only believe the latest figures which says job adds at a 2 year high.
It also says this may delay a further interest rate cut. Balance of trade is within reason, and i don't see any collapse of trade with China.

579 Don't know what kind of silvertail Liberal voting butcher runs that shop there where lamb loins sell for $37 a keg. Down here in the working class Labor butchers lamb loins are $14.99/kg this morning. Lamb grilling chops on special at $8.99 a keg with a bone in. Your bloke must be a Liberal can't get it right, got a bone in his loin chops! Picked up a nice bit of corned beef for $4.99/kg with a cabbage potatoes, beans and white sauce that's dinner tonight. My bloke is trying to feed the masses, unlike silvertail who is saying "meat is only for the privileged few!"

Paul,you've inspired me. Corned beef for dinner tonight here as well.

Well 579, my best guess is that you have looked far and wide to find an over the top priced item, just for points scoring.

Now tell us the rest, organic perhaps!

Now you say food is over priced, well, I don't agree, uless of cause you are referring to the abundance of value added items that now take precedence in the supermarket shelves.

Now on the other hand, if you do think food is over priced, just wait till the worlds largest carbon tax kicks in.

Good old clever labor.

They really have no idea.

Meanwhile, jobs are now being shed in the thousands.

And they try to convince us they are sound economic managers.

You see their fundamental error is that they draw their numbers from what did happen, not from what may happen moving forward, whereas business work in exact opposite, as they make their dicissions on projected forecasts and that's the real difference.

They are shedding jobs knowing what is coming, not what has been.

Butch leave the conspiracy's for Arjay. Retail has had a down graded christmas, and the shift is on to online retail. Thousands will leave a premise and thousands will take up a premise. When consumer confidence is down retail is in trouble. The thing is Australians are not bying the cheap throw away items any more, they are keeping money in the bank.
Retail doesn't predict the future, if they did they would have got out before christmas. Scare mongering will do nothing, some go into business to be their own boss, until they find out it takes real ability to sustain the business, and not just collecting money. Cheer up Butch AU is in good hands.

Cheer up Butch AU is in good hands.

Well 579, if the past four odd years is your motivation for that comment, what do we have to look forward to in the upcoming years if nothing changes.

Our economy grew 180 billion last year, up 22% we are now on 1.2 trillion.
China's economy has slowed by internal manipulation, to offset overheating. now on 8.9% growth down from 9.1%. There is nothing in the figures that suggests AU will be any worse off than last year. Subject to world economics. But you can not factor in something that has not happened yet or may never. I can only go on day by day figures to make predictions. There are currently 5,000 job vacancies in mining. and 11,000 in retail. Good figures.

579

Australia's economy grew by 22%? The Australian Bureau of Statistics will be mortified that they got it so wrong at about 3%.

Any other fantasies you would like to share with us?

SM I suggest you read it properly. That is something Abbott would say. Automakers are not going to be helped by abbott's team. It seems they have made a 70 billion dollar mistake. Tony now says his bigger surplus, has now blown out to 5 years, before any surplus could be achieved.

579, you live in lar lar land while you support a d praise these incompitent fools.

An example of fudged figures by this government is that they continue telling us they have created some 700,000 jobs, since being in office.

So, considering the unemployment rate has increased since 2007, how many jobs have been lost in this same period.

Of cause they don't tell us this, do they.

I also suggest you have your wires crossed with regards to our growth.

22%, you have to be kidding, even China has single digit growth.

Rehctub

Why is it only the wages of the low paid that need to drop? Shounldn't the sacrifice be shared evenly?

Benk, it is.

When I refer to business, I don't mean BHP, I mean the small guy, you know, the one who has tied up his/her family home just to be in business, many of whom have been gutted, by many factors, IR being a major one.

In fact, there are many small businesses who's owners are only there because if they walk, they loose their house.

Many have been pouring money in to keep it afloat, money they have either had stashed from the good times, or borrowed against equity they have accumulated.

The end result is going to be, NO JOBS!

Just imagine 1000 job losses from a large company.

How many smaller businesses feed off this type of business.

Delivery drivers, couriers, snack bars, the list goes on.

So the business owner is taking a pay cut, so why not the employees?

Now if you don't believe me, then that's fine, I respect your opinion, but I also suggest that you watch this space.

Butch wants the wages of the underclass to drop, as he says his future depends on it. He has a vested interest. There is no such thing as unskilled, some are more trained than others. Butch thinks that people in business have the god given right to get rich. No matter of their own ability to run a business.

579 I'll have you know Jamie Packer and Lochlan Murdoch both worked very hard to become billionaires. They took night jobs at Pizza Hut just to earn extra cash so they wouldn't be run of the mill millionaires, like the rest of us. Then you have the billionaire Tiger Woods, who made his money hitting a little white ball around a big green paddock, the majority of us are in the wrong game, we should give up our day jobs and start hitting balls around paddocks. We would then become so over productive that everyone would become a billionaire. The Queen of England had to sit on the throne for 60 years (please someone give the poor woman a laxative) before she become a billionaire. Do you know how skilled throne sitting is? Whats more Liz had to beat hundreds of applicants just to get the job in the first place. If none of these methods result in making you a billionaire then there is always Monopoly, get hotels on Mayfair and Park Lane and presto instant billionaire. The Monopoly game makes billionaires, just ask the Parker brothers.

When my father died I thought I would become a billionaire through inheritance, after all the old man had worked hard in a factory for 48 years, yes 48 years with the one employer, I thought his job must have been some kind of tax dodge and the billions were stashed in the biscuit tin he kept under the bed. Alas, to my surprise when he died and I opened the tin all what was in it was a picture of Phar Lap, an old newspaper clipping about Don Bradman and a few family pics, shock horror no billions. I think if ball hitting and throne sitting makes you a billionaire, surely working hard, day in day out, for 48 years would achieve the same result, well if not billions maybe millions, something better that a couple of old pics and a newspaper clipping, it seems not.

579, you can be in denial as long as you like, but the reality is, we have the highest low skilled wages in the world and, combined with interest rates some four fold, plus the high dollar, the future is bleak.

It stands to reason that if a cleaner can earn up to $40 per hour, then why both with a trade.

Meanwhile, the government goes around in circles wondering why we have no skills, this is why.

Also, the likes of cleaning has to be done, 24/7, yet, if one chooses a trade, they often don't get to work out of hours, so in essense, they net less than the weekend cleaner.

Now one point you either choose to ignore, or, you just won't accept, is that if we continue to burden business with welfare responsibilities, then businesses will fail.

Now as for a business making money, why shouldn't it.

Now I Agee that if the owner has no expertise or experience, then sure, they don't have a given right to succeed, however, if they are experienced, then of cause they should make more than the workers, because they are taking all the risks.

Finally, just on professional sport.

One factor mist don't recognize is the amount of effort that goes in to practice.

If you are a golfer, try hitting up to 1000 balls a day, then, try playing in up to 35 deg + heat.

While it may look cruisy, it ain't.

Are you still in denial 579.

Thousands of jobs on the line, the banks and qantas are just two.

Now if this is as you say ' in good shape', I shutter to think what your definition of bad shape would be.

We still have the carbon tax to come yet, then there is the threat of the NBN making outsourcing of IT work to the likes of India that much easier.

Wake up and smell the roses.

This government stinks!

Butch it's persons like you that continually talk down the economy of AU that do harm.
The latest job figures an extra 46,000 in employment.
Quit ya belly aching, and leave the economy to the govt;

Well The jobs slide has hit a really steep slope,How long before it stops and how will our polies explain it away?.

Keep dreaming 579, also, keep an eye on the papers,news etc.

Remember, we don't have the worlds largest carbon tax yet.

But of cause, there are those who have been brain washed to believe this won't have any negative effect.

Dream on, it's the one thing they can't tax, YET!

Well 50 it quite possibly is permanent !
As for the pollies, they will not explain it, just blame each other.
They simply don't understand what is going on.

I have met several pollies and when explained they just look vacant and
say something will turn up.
Of course something might turn up but it is not on the horizon yet.