The western world can’t keep living on credit and buying from china otherwise it will go into receivership.

Trade must be balance and western cities must be restructured to be environmentally compatible with the planet.

Nations that try to create a 100 kilometre suburban sprawl should face trade embargos tourism boycotts the new growth engine should, l say recreate growth through a green strategy with local industries plus the development pace of globalisation.

Decentralized nations that live with the future in mind advancing at a rapid pace.

Our oceans face great danger from pollution to decimation of fish species our oceans are a living biosphere once a species vanish they may never return.

So the planet must have a plan of curbed population growth in one of sustainability; it shouldn’t be where every tree is stripped bare by encroaching masses; every river is poisoned with dead animals; sewerage and consumer oriented pollution it is a road to destruction

Hillbilly, I think you have the wrong decade.

If you were referring to 20 years ago, many today would have agreed with you.

I like the Quip:

"Jesus Saves!

The Devil buys on Credit!"

Only one teensy little problem with your conclusion, hillbilly.

>>So the planet must have a plan...<<

The planet doesn't have much of a say in the matter.

It is the seven billion people on the planet who need the plan. Unfortunately, each of them has their own agenda, their own ambitions, their own goals and desires.

How do you suggest we set about changing that reality? Because until you find the means, all you actually have is just a bunch of empty words.

Hell is the place the greens, Bob Brown & the UN, & their obedient servant, Julia are trying to lead, or force us into.

Let these prospective dictators get even more control than they all ready have, over our lives, & we'll find stoking the fires in that old picture of hell would be a holiday camp, prepared to life under them.

while i would prefer to reply the headline

i will restrict myself to the comment
see we have near destroyed this world[building it]

now as we pull all that working stuff down
and pay govt subsidy..to build IT AGAIN FROM SCATCH
we dont have a spare earth to build it[NOR PAY FOR IT]

thus govts taxing us to death to pay for it
forcing us to pay double or tripple to acces the services

in short some think this place to be hell
work/pay taxes levies follow the extra rules
be nannied..into hellish controlers clutches

fed lies
kept in the dark
censored and deleted

heck im over thinking for free

i just want to explain hell
were rebuilding it

then when we go bust
the demons who did that

go to the real hell[abouve us[surrounded by its ring of fire]
as well as within..for those without...in the lower animal lusts below us

to explain more is to.........

Pericles,
I agree. A reasonable standard of living for a population half what it is now might be sustainable.
There will not be a second green revolution, and Norman Borlaug author of the first said so as covered below. Yet, people of little understanding persist in converting food to fuel, a process that is not above 20% efficient and in many situations is negative.
We do need to develop a narrative aimed at establish goals and even regulations that will give the human race a chance.
Hasbeen has not thought through the issues. Humans will co-operate to attain sensible well set out goals. Tony Judt's book, "Ill fares the land" is an effort to start movement in a better direction.
NORMAN BORLAUG: THE DEATH OF THE GREATEST AMONG US.(from What's New)
Writing in the Wall Street Journal, Gregg Easterbrook described Borlaug as "the very personification of human goodness." He was that, but he was also a brilliant scientist and tireless teacher of poor farmers in distant lands. His own education began in a one- room schoolhouse in Iowa. His work in agronomy led to the Green Revolution and saved perhaps 1 billion lives. In accepting the 1970 Nobel Peace Prize, however, Borlaug warned against complacency: "we are dealing with two opposing forces, the scientific power of food production and the biologic power of human reproduction. . . Man also has acquired the means to reduce the rate of human reproduction, effectively and humanely . . . but has not yet used this potential adequately. There can be no permanent progress in the battle against hunger until food production and population control unite in a common effort."

Had some difficulty at first working out why so many concerns in one thread.
In the end it proves a point, not hasbeens all evil comes from ALP.
But that we are not one people one earth.
And unlikely ever to be unless it is forced on us.
If improving the world is our target first outlaw every religion.
Totally and convict practitioners.
Invent a brand new one, they are all inventions after all.
Include all races as equal.
Write a new modern day 10, 40, if you like, commandments to live by.
Let those needing the straw have it but let others not believe if they want to.
But unite humanity first.

Human populations will continue to expand, develop and even provide solutions for many of our problems, but when we are all constrained by space and resources and food and pollution, Nature will have her way and population will be reduced by war and starvation and necessity.

Unfortunately it is in our DNA to breed and for some reason we even subsidise it.... even to the extent of allowing the public purse to pay for IVF for those that left it too late to have children naturally.

Nothing much will change until it is changed for us. In the meantime we will grumble and bitch expecting everyone else to change except ourselves. That's human nature

Belly did you read my post?

I clearly remember talking about Bob Brown, & the UN. I did not mention Labor at all, just Bobs lap dog Julia. I'm not sure if she's leading us to hell, on Bobs orders, or if she actually is hell, personified. Same thing I suppose, you'd have to be mad to follow her.

Foyle you & your mates talk such a pile of utter rot, that if composted it could federalise the planet for 100 years.

The good folk of New Guinea cultivate less than 1% of the cultivatable land in their nation, but manage to feed a couple of million with little trouble.

In fact most of that cultivation is used to produce cash crops, copra, palm oil, coco, vanilla, & a few other odds & sods. If they tried they could easily feed all the people of Oz a couple of times over. The same goes for vast swathes of the earth.

While I agree with you that converting food to fuel is a crazy idea, I would remind you the idea was a product of the greenies, & similar scare mongering to your food running out, only about peak oil.

As we now know this was also rubbish, with more oil under north America alone than we have used to date. Add the newly developed gas harvesting methods, & fossil fuels will outlast our requirements for them. As a wise bloke said, the stone age did not end because we ran out of stones, & the same will apply to fossil fuel. New energy supplies will be developed & used to replace fossil stuff, long before we exhaust the supply.

Just like fracking, this new energy will come out of left field, & nothing worthwhile will come out of the billions of our taxes wasted by government on "research".

I even agree with you about population, I'd love to see ours coming down, but I don't need some fabricated excuse to say so. I reckon that if they don't talk good like me & me mates, we should keep em out.

Abbott is going to do his share of depopulating if he gets a chance, he is going to shoot them by the boat load, and then the navy will turn on him.

Hasbeen this much is true, I dislike Gillard.
Not as much as Bob Brown, and am disappointed by the Greens.
They in my opinion, have long ago stopped being a conservation party, are radicals .
And also, sadly many who follow them are quite unaware of that.
I think, as many ALP Parliamentarians, and members, are thinking as I do.
Like or loath Gillard , I think she thinks like that too.
Labor, to stay in power had to deal with them,and the end staying in power will cost us the next election.
Unless this country bury the Greens along with Labor, I will not see another federal Labor Government in my lifetime.
One OUTSTANDING truth, if lead by Abbott the next Conservative Government will be the best thing the ALP has going for it.
Both Conservatives, more so, and Labor must re take the word CONSERVATIONIST from radicals wash it down think out good movements and act, too important to leave in the hands of the Morris Dancers Nude or not, I do not wish to see that under my trees.
Day Lilly's looking great.

Nobody denies that the planet has a finite amount
of resources or that it can tolerate only a
limited amount of pollution.

If world population
continues to grow rapidly, if industrialism spreads
around the world, and if pollution and resources
depletion continues at an increasing rate - and all
these things happen - where is human society headed?
As I've written in the past - the most optimistic
answer to this question would be that, one way or
another - sweeping social changes await us.

Cheers.

cont'd ...

Some food for thought:

"I think that I shall never see
A billboard lovely as a tree.
Perhaps unless the billboards fall,
I'll never see a tree at all."
(Ogden Nash).

But then:

"Why did the Lord give us agility
If not to evade responsibility?"
(Ogden Nash).

He never could get anything really right could he Lexi.

That gift of agility was of course, to avoid falling billboards.

great sayings of course lexie
[but im noting a set and forget
re this topic the hilly billy set and forgot]

im now thinking of the adgenda
that needed an eye grabbing headline
that then fux wit our hed

""The western world cannott keep living on credit""

nior can it kep on printing money[as debt]..out of thin air
the reserve bankers...can deliver every note..[even if by the time it has been collected..its been deflated into nothingness..

thanks to quantive easing
haven stolen its value[bying worth]
by flooding the marklets with eurio/dollar/carbon credits

""and buying""ever more product..""from china""
at ever increasing price?

""otherwise it will go into receivership""

china can print all the quantity
of its own currency it likes....lol
plus govt controls its exchange rate[thus keeps devaluing its price]
as the values..of other us/euro currencies drops]

it's a wholesale fraud
as the rich get bailed out
and we get the shaft...[pay ever more taxes levies[bailouts]

that error[cannot]..at the begining
indicate tio me its a china troll
so could be an important topic

""Trade must be balance""

what individual trade
must balance..what other individual trade
[you mean no cash no trade?]

see collectrive trade
is like collectrive debt
its not equally paid back by all of us
depending on who the state...loves/hates

""western cities must be restructured..to be environmentally compatible with the planet.""

or some warmist
wanting their special needs project funded

note the absolutism
[of a close mind]

""Nations..that try to create..a 100 kilometre suburban sprawl
should face..trade embargos/tourism boycotts""

wtf...
que warrento?..[by what right?}

enough of absolute state control..by THEIR exclusive order
and via their exclusionary burden and laws

""the new growth engine"""

please explain?
which bauilout scam?

this time

""growth engine should,..l say recreate growth
through a green strategy with local industries..plus the development pace of globalisation.""

who is served by globalisation of debt?
you bailed out bankers..went bust
so we bailout you[and go bust]..

its about making us
pay off..your debt

""Decentralized nations..that live with the future""

lol...[got a bailout]..and now have to repay the debt
or have repaiod the debt[by taxing their people to death]

or got a bailout
[noting this greece thing

they need to borow more
to repay back the past debt]

all the new cash..[credit]..goes to the same persona
bank cartel's..lending the new

knowing now..they can get ursurous rates of intrest
that will in time be 'paid'..by haircut[default]
or other credit card..into further debt

its a cuircle
bnest to default the lesser debt NOW!
foolish lenders will send us broker bailing out fools

penny wise POUND FOOLLISH
go broke..let the real capitalists do their capitalisms

""in mind..advancing at a rapid pace.""

slow down hilly billy
take a deep breath..ol china plate

""Our oceans face great danger from pollution
to decimation of fish species""

and now underwater minning
[china's capitalists...will soon be going to do..in papua]

[i say china..but heck who is china?...

its a capitalist partnership
and we all know capitalists are globalists..
multinationalists]..runing this planet by corperations/family trusts...

statist corperate intrests..are looting the world
but they arnt nessisarilly chinese..nor jap..nor us..nor natzies

they are just exploiters
subverting the state..instruments
to loot plunder control and endebit the govts of the world,,,

,into instant blind obediance..
to saving the dead corperation intrests..
sukking the life blood..out of its living peons

""our oceans..are..a living bio-sphere""

hate these buzz_words
biosphere..isnt that EVER-YTHING..[in its earthy/bubble?]

whats,..a batho-sphere
or an atmo-phere..or..a sphere of in-fluence

""once..a species vanish
they..may..never return.""

species..[variations within genus]..cant vanish
but genus..*once thats gone..the species..*is gone too

""So the planet..must have/a plan""

lol..the planet..is the plan

killing it..is the scam..bit by bit,...two/thirds died
before we woke-up..and saw the dead/corpuss..lording it..over the living

planets dont plan..
thats..a thing/of man

lol man.."" plan..of curbed population/growth
in one..of sustainability;""

no it isnt
suss-taint-ability..is spin/word

a buzz/word..to confuse the ingnorant
who think species..lol..is genus

delude word..as fact

""it shouldn’t""

no..it shouldnt beware.....""..be where..every tree
is stripped bare..by encroaching masses;""

no..the encroaching/masses
are just poor mugs..[wage_slaves]
paid to kill it all...before the market saturates
and its real values short-fall..

its only..the masses killing a tree
to burn a fire..to keeop their families warm/fed

because the corperate corpses..[corpe-rate_trusts]..
ie defacto capitalists..destroyed everything else..[stole their wealth/minerals..bio_life forms...

and left the living
to slowly die

capitalists did this..""every river..is poisoned
with dead/animals;..sewerage..and consumer..oriented pollution""

A-greed

how much,..is enough
for these CRIMINALS!

""it's a road..to destruction""

dont sweat on it
they are so rich..they can eat/live on credit..[pro-mise]

till
the credit dries up...GLOBALY..*
cause their multinationalist/capitalist/mate..
stole the rest...hid it in trust...

and then..even their trust_fund
went bust

see
the trouble is traditional cash value..devalued
and the assets they think they got entrusted..in trust
wernt ever really real

lol

its so funny
they sold the earth..for a promise
that in the end..lol..even they couldnt collect

ha/ha_ha-ha

you too..will soon see
the joke is on you few..[lol]..[1%]

the poor
will in time eat you..just like you
tried to con-sume..[sub-sume]..presume..upon them

we..allways were poor
you plunderd wealth..we*..never new egsisted

but heck
all the real/wealth left..
[that belongs to us the many
never again..you..*the colluding few]

do ya worst
we the poor..will allways be here
long after you elite/middle wealthy lite..find out

*there is
a true hell

much more hellish..
than man/kind..can create mate

greed/glutony/averace
peer version..etc...
bind/..blind *you

not us

hilly billy....[sounds more like a luddite SUBURBON-ITE
wanting us to live in highrises

while he the silly billy
lives on..on the hillh the silly billy lives in

im still wanting to ex-plain
the heading..but we should more be looking at
where this topic comes from..[one in the hilly widerness..living his greedy needy delusion..[by perverting our dream][peace love plenty]

into his nightmareish reality of too many of us

[trying to climb on his hill..ya dill]

note how many are willing to kill
only to looose it all..in the end

now my mind has its reasoning exposed
but dont me a muggins

dont follow whatever quick fix is proposed
stop playing their game with their rules

what is credit
but a thing earned..not stolen

by those...more into diss-credit...saying its you
not us..[you the many..not us the few]...thats the perversion

we are all
the mortal heirs..
of the immortal good

if its not all good..[good for all]
its not..*of god..

[nor good..
*for ALL his creation]
hell is where you go...when everything isnt enough

anyhow..we think we know the problem
but if the solution is..to pick on the masses
thats deciete..

thats how genocides begin

its not the many
who do..the true vile
its the few..a deluded few
doing it via minions..never themselves

were all just drug mules
doing for pennies..that the master gets pounds
[dollars..euro's yen marks]

ie promises

[the m/ark of the beast]
valid only..*by your securitised mark[sig-nature]
[oath in writing][auto-graph][put ya mark here]..

sign ya life
assets recources freedom away

sign here

.......
[warning unilateral con-tracts
certify nuthin]

if you dont know
what unilateral is..dont sign]

lawfull contract's
require INFORMED concent

till then

DONT SIGN NUTHIN*

[or if you must sign..sign as trustee
*for the person{trust]..

[your in capitals name]
is patent right belongs to the state
a dead fiction..that allows the other dead fictions

to lord it over
you..the living

Hasbeen,

I have looked up Papua New Guinea on the Global Footprint Network (GFN) 2010 Atlas.

http://issuu.com/globalfootprintnetwork/docs/ecological-footprint-atlas-2010/1?mode=a_p

In environmental footprint analysis, production and consumption per capita or in total are converted to notional hectares of land. It is rough and has limitations, which are discussed, but allows comparisons to be made. GFN also calculates the biocapacity (how many resources, given current technology, could be used per person on a sustainable basis). The per capita figures for Papua New Guinea are 2.48 ha production footprint, 2.14 ha consumption footprint, and 3.75 ha biocapacity. For comparison, the respective figures for France are 4.27 ha, 5.08 ha, and 3.00 ha. So the Papua New Guineans are consuming within their means, one of the few countries that are (see Map 6 on p. 37). While their politicians could afford to make their people better off with competent management, you are wildly exaggerating the potential.

For the fly in the ointment, see the CIA World Factbook. Papua New Guinea is growing its population on 1.99% a year, a 35 year doubling time. Typically for the low-income group of countries, including Papua New Guinea, biocapacity has been increasing since 1961 (better crops, new technology), but population has been increasing even faster, and consumption has remained fairly constant (See Fig. 12 of the Atlas).

Dear Hasbeen,

Heee Heee Heee.

Divergence I'm sure those producing your figures for such an august greenie body have crawled all over PNG & know it well. I did mention that most of the area cultivated is cash crops, which have little or nothing to do with the majority of villagers, & certainly nothing to do with feeding them.

I never pay too much attention to these desk top evaluations. That is what has given the ridiculous global warming scam. I've never seen one that did anything but reflect its authors prejudices.

If you are interested I could show you how it works.

On the mainland & high islands a village of 2 or 300 using shifting agriculture, will clear a couple of hectares, for a garden. This, with bananas & paw paws around the village, will feed them all for a few years, until the potash has been exhausted & they move on a few yards.

In coastal areas they often garden on a small island. These are not very fertile, but are easily kept free of destructive pigs, so are worth the effort of feeding with seaweed to keep up the production.

Let me know when you want to see the real thing, rather than a computer projection, run by the biased.

Hasbeen,

The Global Footprint Network (GFN) is an international thinktank, not a bunch of ignorant greenies operating out of someone's garage. Apart from the usual administrative and IT people, most of the people who work for GFN are engineers, scientists, and economists.

http://www.footprintnetwork.org/en/index.php/GFN/page/our_team/

Here is what some very eminent people have to say about them and their methods:

http://www.footprintnetwork.org/en/index.php/GFN/page/testimonials/

GFN gets its data from organisations such as the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation and the International Energy Agency

http://www.footprintnetwork.org/en/index.php/GFN/page/methodology/

Of course, any calculations that they make are only as good as the statistics that they are based on. There probably aren't very good statistics for PNG, but it is hard to believe that really enormous untapped potential could have escaped notice.