WHAT a sweet thing it must be while it lasts, to be employed by NBN Co. It is by far the most lucrative federal agency to work for, with an average wage cost per employee of $166,000 a year.

Treasury staff average $112,500, those in Minister for Broadband Stephen Conroy's own department $109,000, and in finance a trifling $87,000.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/costly-nbn-just-another-fiasco/story-e6frg7ko-1226238498787

With only a few thousand houses connected, the costs and time schedule blowing out, and the meter continually running, it is only a matter of time before the NBN off balance sheet spending passes the point where pretence of financial viability can no longer be maintained. But as long as it survives past 2013 Labor is happy to keep up the façade.

Some do any thing to avoid it, trample on it, even stuff under their jumper.
But truth can not be hidden, not changed.
Increasing desperation and avoidance of it by our Shadow Minister may be a symptom of something else.
A growing rumble from deep within Conservative ranks.
NEGATIVITY is driving that fear and concern.
Along with a simple truth, but harsh one.
The promises/commitments targeted things Abbott's Circus has set out to do, are not deliverable in government.
NBN is here to stay, in 2 years those crafting such as this thread will pretend they always knew it.

Belly,

You don't add anything to the threads except to attack me. It looks as though your desperation is showing.

The greatest piece of infrastructure since the Snowy Mountains Scheme.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I think it might be time to cease quoting pieces from News Limited to make your point. A recent Press Council Ruling in December condemned the organization for a series of three articles published about the NBN over just one month. It used words such as "misleading and unfair" and "clearly and seriously inaccurate" in describing the pieces. It also talked of serious omissions.
http://www.presscouncil.org.au/document-search/adj1515-benaud-daily-telegraph-dec-2011/?LocatorGroupID=662&LocatorFormID=677&FromSearch=1

Surely this is a blatant case of agenda seriously compromising the delivery of facts.

This is what the SM thrives on, if it's sensationalistic it's good. Specify crap and someone will take notice.

Csteele,

Considering that newspapers work to a deadline, and do not submit thoroughly researched and peer reviewed articles, the many articles on the NBN, and the constant stream of complaints from labor and Green supporters, the few trifling inaccuracies and sentences that "might be misleading" are hardly an indictment.

Also from your link:

"These errors may well have been considered minor in themselves"

"The Council considered the newspaper should have made greater efforts to get up-to-date customer figures, although the error did not substantially affect the point being made."

Your nitpicking of a few inaccuracies does not undo the fact that vast majority of the information they report is factually correct, and that the NBN is a disaster slowly unravelling.

Oh dear Shadow Minister to accuse me of nitpicking after that post is shameless.

Lol.

You are like the mother of a pair of bank robbers only telling the neighbour about the traffic infringement at the head of the charge sheet. You just should not have done it.

As to Jamie Benaud, the person who lodged the complaint I have no evidence he is a member of either the Greens or Labour. He is however a contributor to Whirlpool;
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1835806

His website can be found here;
http://www.australianimages.com.au/jamie.php

I am no longer going to feed your paranoia Shadow Minister.
Far more than I have remarked about your apparent fixed and blind opinions.
I am afraid thoughts and opinions are best served with a side dressing of interest in both sides of issues.
Insult away, your posts leave me with no need to return service, you do it for me.

Csteele,

Quite the contrary, you are the person looking at the parking ticket and then claiming they are bank robbers.

None of the errors were significant or detracted from the points being made.

"The Council considered the newspaper should have made greater efforts to get up-to-date customer figures, although the error did not substantially affect the point being made".

The Government had set targets for the initial take up in trial sites and failed. This was the point of the article which was unaffected by the error.

"The Council also considered that describing the ISP connection fee as “up to $140” was unfair and misleading when the range was as wide as $30-$140".

This is just plain petty and given what we're seeing reduced competition in the market through consolidation, requests from NBNCo for increases 5% above inflation for a decade, and cost and time blow out that costs are likely to be higher.

By the time the NBN comes on line, it will be far less technically relevant than it would be if available today.

PS. This is another example of labor government incompetence, and why these upgrades should be left to the private sectors that actually know what they are doing.

http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/free-skype-much-better-than-labors-72m-telehealth-grant-20120107-1pphh.html

An excellent post Shadow Minister.Our most pressing infrastructure need is good efficient transport but that will not be a good gravy train for Labor or their voracious beaucracies.Labor continues with their criminal waste of our money.

The NBN is a Rolls Royce project. Certainly it will probably be the
ultimate solution and I can't see it ever being obsolete.
Radio solutions are very good but they take up spectrum that is too
valuable to use for other than mobile applications.
It would be criminal to waste it on someone in their bedroom playing
games or watching films or even doctors in their surgery examining
xray files.

However the NBN & the internet is not survival infrastructure.
The money could have been much better spent on duplicating and
electrifying the interstate rail lines.
Projects such as public transport and major water projects are
survival projects and will support our country well into the far
future no matter what gets thrown at us in the future.
How much more important would a campaign to increase the number of
farmers. Until we do something about that we are condemned to live
off other countries left overs.

Not even the very high speed trains are survival infrastructure.
They are a luxury that now cannot be afforded. Much more productive
to put NBN size funds into rebuilding the important infrastructure
such as railways and interstate shipping & ports.

So wake up and realise that the internet is a toy for the boys and girls.

The NBN is an expensive and complex undertaking and so it is not surprising if the average salary per employee is high. While I disagree with some of the details (I think the NBN could use more wireless and the USO aspects need more thought), the NBN Co. has done a difficult job well, so far. Even if the NBN is an over-investment in infrastructure, it would be better that it actually works, than then money is completely wasted.

Arguments about how many homes have been passed by the cable so far and how many households have taken up the offer miss the point of the NBN. The idea is to spend about a decade replacing the copper phone network, as well as the hybrid pay TV networks. It is early days yet for numbers of subscribers. In the long term there will be a large take-up rate, as there will be no alternative if you want a land-line phone or Internet access. Just as you don't run several electricity cables down each street, the idea is to have one monopoly fiber optic cable (with wireless as a limited alternative).

The former Liberal-National Party government started implementing a system with ADSL2+ on copper cable in city areas and wireless in regional areas. The ALP had proposed using Fiber to the Node (FTTN), providing a more advance (and expensive) service and much as the opposition now proposes: http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/broadband/

There were problems with the wireless part of the Liberal-National Party proposal: http://blog.tomw.net.au/2007/10/wireless-broadband-for-regional.html

After forming government, the ALP abandoned the previous government's system and decided to go for the fiber to the home option (FTTH). That allows for more growth in the future, but is more expensive to install. The wireless part of the NBN is much the same as the opposition proposed, but using licensed frequencies, making it more reliable.

Tomw,

Tom, if you are in the IT it is no wonder you support the network, seeing tons of taxpayer largess flowing your way.

Juliar's BER also saw extravagance and vastly over priced infrastructure.

Ah me, why is it that both sides of the political spetrum treat the public expertise as morons when it comes to large projects. I hardly call bum sitting couch potatoes expertise when it comes to things like NBN or all the failed projects [ aka, insulation program ].
Having been in communications for 44 years and a former south pacific regonal manager for ITT Belgium [ coms frame construcion ]I can tell you absolutly that ripping out all the present infrastructure to go FO is stupidity personified. The reasons run for pages but top of the list is not delivery to end user but SERVER CAPACITY!.While we have been sensibly running co-ax for all services [Cap 100MBS] and promising 10MBS min. the servers upgrade has been totally ignored. Anyone getting 10MBS on co-ax must be sitting inside the exchange and on a 100 port server with no-one else. We need more servers for the existing cable not cable upgrade. You can run all the FO you like but unless you upgrade the servers, you aint gunna get faster data. I have co-ax and lucky to get 200KBS at best. Rather than upgrade a 100 port server for one extra connection, the PTB proxy ports until it becomes ecconomical to whack in another 100port rack. Been there, done that. So mister shadow minister, how about you do your home work and present REAL answeres as to why the NBN project as it stands is doomed to failier and what can be done at a fraction of the cost to fix it up. 80% of ozz doesent NEED more then 10MBS [ if they can ever get it ]and the present cable [ well most of it ] can support it now.
As a final dig at the old insulation scheme. 40c and 4 minutes work could have prevented all deaths by live foil. Its called an earth wire and 2 press studs.

Pepper, some sound thoughts. Sadly, there was never a business case made out for the NBN, as it was always seen as a political imperative rather than addressing a specific need.Let's face it, as soon as Mike Kaiser's name appeared anywhere near it that should have started all sorts of alarm bells ringing.

Even more sadly, some of those who should know better are doing all they can to confuse the issue for their own benefit. As a rsult nobody will be properly served and the people in the bush who can't get a reliable telephony service will still have to wait months for any form of fault-rectfication, but there'll be lots of jobs for the ALP boys (and girls) when they lose their gig in Canberra.

Pepper is right, the problem with the internet is the servers.
I get 10 Mbit on adsl2 to & from the exchange, but never get that when
downloading files, more like 100 kbit to 1 mbit.
So giving me fibre at 100 mbit is a total waste of time and money.
It will not make the slightest difference.

Shadow Minister, Monday, 9 January 2012 10:29:32 AM:

>Tom, if you are in the IT it is no wonder you support the network ...

I support the NBN, although I would like to see a scaled down, lower cost version, but not as scaled down as the Opposition is proposing.

> seeing tons of taxpayer largess flowing your way. ...

I am not working on any NBN projects. I guess I don't charge enough. ;-)

> Juliar's BER also saw extravagance and vastly over priced infrastructure. ...

The Building the Education Revolution (BER) did some good things. One of the more impressive projects funded was St Monica’s Primary, North Parramatta (NSW) multi-purpose learning centre: http://blog.tomw.net.au/2011/03/open-plan-learning-centres-for-primary.html

But I would like to see more spent on teacher training and course development, rather than buildings and computer hardware.

>>579-The greatest piece of infrastructure since the Snowy Mountains Scheme.<<

Hey 579 what an ill informed statement, on a thousand levels.

Snce the Hydro scheme completion the Ord River scheme delivered water and clean power to our west. The scheme generatates ongoing income to thousands of Aussies in small and large buisinesses who grow and sell, not to mention the extended economy that flows from servicing that segment.

What will we get for the 60 billion the government have borrowed to pay for the NBN, more fooking taxes.

>>tomw-The Building the Education Revolution (BER) did some good things. One of the more impressive projects funded was St Monica’s Primary, North Parramatta (NSW) multi-purpose learning centre:<<

Tom that statement is just plain ignorant given the scope of the BER.
even the drovers dog knows that the private school segment were the only ones to get value for money because they were allowed to self manage their allocated funds. The public school system in every Labor run state was robbed blind by state governments that were broke before the BER, but just after a year of managing it had surpluses to report in their budgets. Get real, we are not all stupid.

sonofgloin wrote 9 January 2012 4:04:27 PM:

>>>tomw ... BER ... more impressive projects funded was St Monica’s
> Primary, North Parramatta (NSW) multi-purpose learning centre:<<
>
>Tom that statement is just plain ignorant given the scope of the BER.
>even the drovers dog knows that the private school segment were
>the only ones to get value for money ...

St Monica’s Primary is a private school. So we seem to be in agreement.

tomw, special subject: the bleeding obvious.

Tom fact or not, in the context that you used the example, the example is erroneous, given your use of it to intimate the success of a failed program. It’s acolyte rhetoric.

Sonofgloin,

Isn't it interesting that the Snowy Scheme was strongly opposed by Menzies at the time as being unnecessary, expensive and not needed and that it cost the same as the NBN as a percentage of GDP.

The Sydney Harbour Bridge met similar opposition at the time.

(Much of the added cost of the Snowy Scheme was due to it having a dual purpose as incorporating an intended underground research centre for a proposed nuclear industry that never happened).

Also the BER was intended to keep the contruction industry going throughout the GFC - which it did successfully - despite misleading media hysteria to the contrary and for which the government received international recognition and acclaim.

Wobbles my old china, the Snowy scheme delivered green power, irrigation and water storage facilities. The bridge delivered infrastructure that allowed effective domestic and commercial carriage compared to the ferry service and the existing land route to our north shore.

Re the BER:>> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/ber-waste-tops-15b/story-fn59niix-1226090622303<<

>>The third and final report into the BER, conducted by former investment banker Brad Orgill, has found Victorian and NSW, have not delivered value for money for public schools under the program with public schools charged an average of up to 60 per cent more for school buildings, despite no differences in quality.

The taskforce has found the Victorian and NSW Governments - who delivered more than a third of the BER program - did not provide value for money in delivering projects and had in many cases delivered buildings of poor quality.<<

Wobbles I don't care who was in power or who whined about the vaunted outcomes of the Snowy and the Bridge, they were wrong. But the NBN is delivering a similar outcome to the technology in place at present and given the delivered speed to download the information relies on the servers capacity to accommodate rather than the end users capacity to download it is akin to owning a Ferrari and operating it in an environment with a top legal speed limit of 110 klm/h, there is no gain, no point to the exercise other than expenditure.

Finally regarding the GFC, have a look at our balance of trade during that period, nothing changed. Our lending institution had bugger all prime loan exposure, the Feds guaranteed savings but were not called on to pitch in money, domestic mortgage defaults remained constant and the employment rate did not alter. The GFC was a northern hemisphere phenomenon and to say otherwise shows a simplistic acolyte mindset. Wobbles if I say the right things will you lie for me too? I have no followers at present, but I an recruiting, will you be my boy wobbles, or like Christina Kineally will you be Sussex Streets girl.

SonofGloin,

I believe there were also arguments about providing electrical power when gas was perfectly acceptable at the time and when it was gradually installed it was intended primarily for street lighting.

Microwave ovens, TV and everything else we now take for granted was not even imaginable at the time and it was only a matter of years ago when the blistering speeds of 52K MODEMS were thought to be enough (along with 64Meg of RAM).

There's much more to the internet than simple private downloading and email and businesses for example will be able to provide and configure their own internal Virtual Private Networks at minimal cost.

While it's true that maximum speed is only as good as the slowest link, server speeds should likewise increase as technology advances and it would be a shame if infrastructure became the final bottleneck rather than provide an open-ended solution for a long time to come.
I am able to say from personal experience that Telstra are frantically (but successfully) trying to keep pace with burgeoning data capacity demands previously unimaginable only a couple of years ago.

Like all technologies, such as colour TV and Mobile Phones - when a critical mass level is reached, demand will skyrocket and costs will fall.

I also don't agree that the GFC was just a Northern Hemisphere phenomenon when we felt it's effects so directly. All seem to agree that without a stimulus at the bottom level a loss of business confidence at that time would likely have started an unemployment spiral. The political argument has been over how much it should have been, not it's effectiveness.

Finally, "I'm nobody's boy", nor am I an acolyte but put up some more detail and we'll see where it goes. These Forums are becoming nothing but a magnet for the disaffected and those with political agendas to promote. I'm only here for some cheap entertainment.

Wobbles;
You seem to think that Moore's Law is open ended.
Processor speeds are nudging the ultimate limit now.
The type of increases you seem to be hinting at are in fact unreachable.
If businesses want their own virtual networks, let them pay for it.
Applying that capability to all premises is nothing more than an
expensive toy. We have all seen a salesman oversell hardware to an
unknowing customer and this is what has happened with the NBN.
I am tired of hearing stories about how business will not be able to
survive without 100Mbit plus the day after tomorrow.
It is as big a load of BS as the same organisations handed out about
broadband over power lines (BPL) some years back.

We have been sold a mining tip truck instead of a wheelbarrow.

wobbles">>Finally, "I'm nobody's boy", nor am I an acolyte: I'm only here for some cheap entertainment.<<

Good to hear wobbles, so am I china.

PS wobbs:
Our cheap entertainment is going to cost 60 BILLION.

ON top of this we will be paying $60bn for a system that when it nears completion is partially obsolete.

No Shadow Minister it will not become obsolete.
It can be upgraded by just hanging better equipment on each end of the cable.
So, in fact, it is a Rolls Royce that can be updated cheaply to the
next requirement.
However that does not mean that it is not a waste of money.
It has been vastly oversold and you can get to the shops just as
effectively on a bicycle as a Rolls Royce.
If you want to be faster than a bicycle buy a Holden.
It will have the same speed limitations as your Rolls Royce.

That is the crux of the argument.

If the servers cannot dish it out fast enough, the fibre cable will
make zero difference. The delays are not in the copper wire that is
your personal dedicated connection to the internet.

One of the big pushers of ftth did not understand the technology all
that well when he was pushing broadband over power line.
They just would not listen to those that knew better what the
problem was and how unsuitable the system was.
It was an argument between technical people and computer people.
The lesson was they are not the same.

As I said earlier, wireless, ie radio, is not the answer either as we
cannot afford to waste more spectrum than is absolutely necessary on
the internet.

SM does not see outside capital city's.

Go for a drive around this country and you will see why broadband is needed. 90% of AU is living in the dark ages, with no communication. Mining sites roll out their own system, bugger anyone else. The greatest infrastructure job since the Snowy Mountains scheme.

579

90% live in the cities. Why should the needs of 10% dictate that 90% should pay much more than they need?

Infrastructure costs money, and does not need to have a majority rule to come about. City dwellers would not know the needs of the 10% that do not have communication. Broadband will open the vast interior up, to something more use-full than growing skinny cattle. Your disregard for the 10% is very narrow minded, and inward looking.

579 said;
Broadband will open the vast interior up, to something more use-full
than growing skinny cattle.

Such as ?

Too many people think that to get broadband you MUST have fibre
everywhere and it MUST be 100Mbit + to be of any use at all.
It simply is not true.

It is like demanding a four lane motorway from Sydney to Broken Hill.
You don't need it and cannot pay for it.
Asking the whole population to pay for it would not make it feasible.

I will at some time have 100 Mbits available but I do not need it
and will not pay for it.
A very few companies in the country areas will need 100Mbits and if so
let them pay for it. The other 9% will be very happy with 10 Mbits as
I am and many others are also.
All that needs to be done is get fibre, or equivalent microwave links
to every exchange in the country. To say that is going back to two
cans and string just shows the ignorance of those promoting that mind set.

As someone else said & I repeated, to make an improvement the remote
servers will need to be improved. However that would need big money
to be spent and there is no case for the public to contribute to that cost.

579

Your disregard for the 90% of Australians who will have to pay inflated prices to subsidise a small portion of our population is breath taking, especially since the take up for this new NBN is so low.

I have just had an example of what my last post said.
I just downloaded a 9 Mbyte file from Yahoo.
The download speed was between 16k bytes and 25Kb per sec.
That was 200 kbits per second peak on a 10 Megabit per second line.

Can anyone explain to me how fibre would have increased that speed ?
It looks like Yahoo will have to spend big money on some very big bits
of very expensive hardware to justify the NBN.
Other US sites seem to be about twice as fast.

Anyway how will fibre to my home fix that ?

90% of AU is living in the dark ages,
579,
please explain how the NBN will change a mentality ?

I'm on an 8 Gb monthly plan for $62.-. My friend in Holland (an Australian) can't understand why we still have download limits in Australia. Isn't this an indication that although a movie will download 2 seconds faster with the NBN, the technology will be compromised by the greed limits of our service providers. Removing the Gb limits would be way more beneficial.

You best hang on a while before you worry about take up numbers, NBN is no different than roads around the country. Bazz is not going to use the NBN, what other options will there be. If you want a telephone you will have NBN. Quit ya whyning about infastructure, The Ord River has got the potential of being a gigantic irrigation system, being held back by skinny cattle farmers. All the internal AU needs is water, it will grow.

No one has yet explained how the NBN will speed up my service.
Cat got your tongue ?

579, I might well use the 4G phone service, or the existing 3G service.
It will depend on what is cheapest.
It might well be some time or the government may run out of money
before the NBN gets to me.
There is a distinct risk of the government being unable to pay more
important bills than the NBN over the next three or four years.

download speed 1 gb / second

The speed limit on the M5 is 100km, but often it is only moving at less than 10kmph.

579 said;

download speed 1 gb / second

Was that a reply to me ?
What does that mean ? Is it Giga bytes or Giga bits ?

What do you mean ? Will that speed up my service ?

How ?

If it was a reply to me my question is do you understand these data
systems ?

The NBN moves at the speed of light, so you will just have to stand in line.

Huh !
Well, 579, sorry, I thought you had some knowledge of the subject.
Hope I did not unnecessarily embarrass you.

I suspect a random idiot comment generator.