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The Forum > General Discussion > Under no circumstances do I want ever see anyone like John Howard as our prime-minister again

Under no circumstances do I want ever see anyone like John Howard as our prime-minister again

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Damage caused by John Howard in his late years as prime-minister overweights all his achievements. He was trying to spread fear and paranoia among Australians. Fear of terrorism, fear of refugees, fear of financial crisis, etc. ... Social management must not be based on fear, and human rights must never be sacrificed for any material benefits.
It is why, under no circumstances, I want ever see anyone like John Howard as our prime-minister.
Posted by Andreas Berg', Tuesday, 3 January 2012 6:51:52 AM
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Don't much want to see anyone like any of the PM's we've had during my lifetime as our prime-minister again.

They have all had their fault's and I don't see anything about Howard that marks him out as being worse than the others.

I suspect that we've got to the situation where having what it takes to get the job pretty much assures that you don't have what it takes to do the job.

If you have to lie to get the job, if you have to undermine others to get the job, if you have to spin issues regardless of the ethics to get the job then it's no wonder we end up with PM's who don't seem to stand for much in the way of real values.

No idea how we fix that either.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 8:05:08 AM
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Perhaps you prefer the professionalism of bawling at your aids for not bringing your hairdryer, abusing a hostie for not having the right din-dins, ignoring safety concerns because you want an initiative pushed through quickly and frying a few poor sods as a consequence etc etc.......?

Cant say I'm much of a Howard fan, but I'm not blind to the faults of the alternatives.
Posted by Fester, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 8:06:51 AM
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just dont ignore the real and present danger
the young innocent...who took over where he left off

[the ol former leftie
juliar guile-lard
howard marc 2
feemale mode

same backroom thugs serving the 2 party adgenda
who rules by sacking things a drovers dog could win
to install the evil twin..[when its looks like they might win]

hayden got the shaft..for the war hawke
burns got burned for the gloss tosser

alp is just anotrher business
they stopped serving their own members
to allow the masters members to install the shaft

bendover
here come the next howhard martha 2

nope im over it
my belly is sore from laughing
[now i know he dont read my 'poetry'..lol
i dont need to concern over upsetting..a good man..[decieved badly]

yes howard was a coward..
but he was better than the dewliar guile lard
who cant even commit to her mate..or motherhood
whats that lable put upon sexually active unwed..[or wed]....

who serve the monied elite
getting on with their big multinationalist corperate rape
of the lands and people..of this vast common wealth[what they do..that govt couldnt do better for its workers?]..[its people]

all its people..not just former public servants
cashing in on govt largess[subsidy]govt grant and coorperate licence

at least howard had finally paid off his masters
then comes jewliar..to pay off the same debts
to the same moneyed elite

age would have mellowed him

he knew..he went too far
thus might have gotten humble

remembers he is there
FOR the voter..not his master's
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 9:05:53 AM
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History will judge those who were good for the
nation or not - despite whatever personal "quirks"
they may have had. Personally I feel that we're a nation
that has had a fairly decent reputation overall for
fairness and integrity when compared with some others.
The voters usually have got it right in their choices
of leaders. I am optimistic about our future - and I
intend to vote as I have always done - for policies
rather than personalities.

As for Mr Howard's merit award from the Queen. I don't
think it's right or fair to begrudge that to him. He
was a staunch monarchist after all.
Sir Rober Menzies got a knighthood.
Mr Howard got this honour.

As for no wanting anyone like Mr Howard as PM again.
We could do a lot worse. Take a good look at the
world leadership currently on offer. Australia isn't
doing badly at all.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 9:21:34 AM
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Andreas, I'll bet you believe in the fear of global warming.

About the only things Howard did wrong was,

1. Take the guns of the population, who just may be called upon some day, to again defend the country.

2. Start to loose his "ticker", & start giving lip service to global warming.

3. Go too far, too fast with industrial policy.

Howard shows up the others we've had in my time, for the bunch of fools they were.

It must be tough for lefties, going through life with their eyes shut tight, to avoid seeing what is right in front of them.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 9:34:04 AM
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Howard might have been bad in some eyes but only someone totally blind or ignorant would not be able to see he was miles ahead of what we have now.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 9:40:38 AM
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A lot of the blame for poor politicians lie with the electorate. Most vote for the politician who is going to give them the most and you always have to remember that what goes into someone's pocket come out of someone else's. It is difficult for any member of parliament to think long term as they always have to consider their position/party at the next election. We are fast becoming a socialised country where everyone wants the government (paid for by the private sector) to provide them with everything from baby bonuses to deposits for first house purchases. Is it any wonder all Western governments are in such a financial mess. They can't make the hard decisions because they would then be kicked out of office...... One of the disadvantages of a democracy, Nevertheless it is way ahead of the alternative.
Posted by snake, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 11:10:11 AM
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Dear snake,

I think corporate greed played a big part in today's
global financial crisis. It's got to be about equity -
and a fair go for all. Not only tax cuts for the
rich - and cut backs for the rest.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 11:18:00 AM
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Andreas Berg;

What a load of rubbish !
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 1:14:31 PM
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You just can-not please some people, the AU govt; is the best in the world, we also have the worlds best treasurer. Julia is doing a marvelous job in the face of diversity. Has AU been better off.
Howard got off the beaten track, there too long. They get power drunk, and do not know when to quit. Some just do not see good in anyone.
Posted by 579, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 1:17:43 PM
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Greed is the problem along with concentration of power.

It is reflected in many ways from the smallest denominator and up, the voters, workers, business groups, lobby groups and governments.

It is the malaise of the new corporatism.

It is a rare leader that will go against the prevailing norms to achieve better democratic outcomes for people. Power is too concentrated away from the ordinary citizen. That is the problem that is the elephant in the room and the perception that it is too late to turn back.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 1:28:05 PM
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Under the Howard government the living standards of the lowest paid increased by more than it ever did under a Labor government.

If you grow the economy everyone prospers.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 3:38:05 PM
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Well you have stirred up the ants nest.
I have no time for Howard, not the one behind work choices.
Or the hen pecked one who let his wife have far too much say in running our country.
But ignore at your peril he won over voters who had never even considered voting conservative.
Our personal views , if not held by a majority are of no use.
John Winston Howard had twice the followers of our current leaders.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 3:55:32 PM
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Belly: "John Winston Howard had twice the followers of our current leaders".
And finally was not re-elected by his own electorate, which was considered as a very safe liberal for decades...
Posted by Andreas Berg', Tuesday, 3 January 2012 6:51:23 PM
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Lexi and history will judge is it likely Howard nickname could ever appear in history, namely Bonsai Howard in respect to then Opposition leader Latham defining Howard as a arse licking Bush and taking this country to an ongoing another American war.
Posted by dougbell, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 6:57:41 PM
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Dear dougbell,

I thought that Howard had the nickname "Bonsai," because
he was a "Little Bush." Or so the story goes.
He may have been responsible for our involvement in
the Iraq war - but our current PM also strongly supports
the American alliance and there are no signs of our pulling
out of any of our military involvements. Do you really
believe that our country would be able to defend itself
against any aggressors without the help of the US?
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 7:39:26 PM
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Yes I know, it's a terrible thing to have low interest rates, sky high confidence and money in the bank, that's after repaying labor's huge debt, at least it was back then, but they have now raised the bar yet again.

Don't believe me, just go and ask the trades out there. You will have to look pretty hard though as most of them have eithe gone broke, or are heading that way.

Unless of cause they are fixing one of the many of labor's stuff ups!
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 7:49:13 PM
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Andreas,
If you reckon Howard was a bad PM, what is your opinion of the last one and the present one. By the way, what is our national debt now and the rate of bank foreclosures on houses.

Be interesting to see how Belly replies to your last post.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 9:07:56 PM
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For those who have forgotten, or perhaps are trying hard not to remember, Howard's nick name was "Honest John". I found it rather amusing to watch a crushed Labor party, spend 10 years obviously trying to white ant that name, without much result.

Yes, he was wrong in his attempt to cut working conditions so drastically, so quickly. It cost him government, but any honest person would have to admire him staying with his electorate, which with boundary & demographic change had become nominally Labor, when he lost.

History will show him as a visionary, in his attempt to reduce the wage structure of Oz. We will have to match the cost structure of Asia at some time in the not too distant future. Who would have believed, 40 years ago, that Singapore wages would be higher than ours? Well in most of our lifetimes, it will be China with higher wages.

The sooner we stop paying ourselves more than we are worth, the gentler the effect on our lives it will be, as the decline really kicks in. But how do you tell a bunch of not too hard working Ozzies, that they don't earn their keep? Not easy, if you want to get elected, so I guess we're headed for a very hard landing.

If you've got any spare cash, start looking for a parachute to ease your fall. Gas shares, or perhaps mining shares, may be the best insurance I would think.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 9:47:11 PM
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Didn't the public service expand substantially under Howard?

Could governments since have cut budgets by just sacking all appointments under Howard? Could be a good start....

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 9:51:31 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

Indeed, when John Howard was about to become prime minister, some people believed he was "honest John".
After lies about Iraq's weapons of mass distraction, children overboard, Haneef's affair, agreement with Peter Costello, etc., violating human rights of Aboriginal people in Northern Territory, and so on and so forth, some people started to believe that John Howard never was 'honest' but hypocritical. Some people are considering him as a 'war criminal'.
So, dear Banjo, can we judge John Howard within the frames of 'bad' and 'good' prime minister categories, or we should apply something different?
Posted by Andreas Berg', Tuesday, 3 January 2012 10:35:26 PM
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Andreas,
I do not care how you make your judgement, but if you consider Howard to be bad, what is your opinion of the just past and present PM.

Oh, and why would you see it as bad to stop the physical and sexual abuse of aboriginal children and to improve their health and education? The present Government continues that program and many aboriginals applaud it. The actions in this regard should be expanded to all states and to non aboriginal kids as well.

You ignore the national debt and the bank foreclosures matter.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 4 January 2012 12:13:21 AM
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Some allege that living standards increased under Howard.
More like middle-class welfare payments increased - but for the few at the expense of the many.

WorkChoices also inflicted sufficient hardship on voters to sack both him and his government at the very next election.

There were notable statistical increases in some areas however - under-employment, workforce casualisation, homelessness, bankruptcies (both personal and corporate) plus youth suicide rates.

He deserves a medal. Oh that's right - he got one (but not from us).
Posted by wobbles, Wednesday, 4 January 2012 12:40:58 AM
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AB let us not get carried away.
I am as strongly left of center as you.
But trading in self deception is a form of self amusement.
Had JWH not let his bile against unions/workers run free he would still be PM.
It matters not what you or I think he gave the electorate what it wanted.
LATHAM! how can anyone quote the grubby person he was as evidence Howard was other than he was.
JWH killed his party and self by an action that bought about warfare in the workplace.
Labor/Unions must distance them selves from pointless propaganda.
Average Aussie, the people we must gather together or fail forever, will not buy other than truth.
I repeat I think his wife wore the trousers, but Labor can do well to understand he, unlike our current leader, worked on bringing others not his own to him.
It worked.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 4 January 2012 4:41:06 AM
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Dear Banjo,

In my first post of this discussion, I suggested that John Howard "was trying to spread fear and paranoia among Australians. Fear of terrorism, fear of refugees, fear of financial crisis, etc. ... Social management must not be based on fear, and human rights must never be sacrificed for any material benefits".
Therefore, it would be illogical for me to be involved in consideration of financial matters etc., which I believe are off topic concerning current discussion.
Also, off topic seems to be consideration of achievements and failures of current and former prime-ministers. Yet, it is relevant to notice that, unlike John Howard, neither Kevin Rudd nor Julia Gillard have ever been caught with any public lies such as about Iraq's weapons of mass distraction, children overboard, Haneef's affair, agreement with Peter Costello etc., and never decided to be involved in Iraq and Afghanistan wars. They inherited these problems from John Howard.
"To stop the physical and sexual abuse of aboriginal children and to improve their health and education" is very important, but this must be done only by democratic methods.
Attempts 'to improve democratic society by antidemocratic methods' can never be justified by their intentions and even achievements. Such a social management is unacceptable under any circumstances. This was a clear message to John Howard by his electorate when he was not re-elected.
Should not such a lesson be well learned?
Posted by Andreas Berg', Wednesday, 4 January 2012 6:31:59 AM
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Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 3 January 2012 9:05:53 AM

Dear Sir "under one god",

you must modify you habits first seriously cut back the amber fluid and the other..........your Mum told you it was bad for you and she was right!
Posted by Garum Masala, Wednesday, 4 January 2012 7:57:47 AM
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Andreas,
You are dreaming, Howard did not promote fear of terrorist, he simply made us aware of the possibility of terrorist acts here and put in place laws to stop such acts. The recent jailing of some for planning such shows it was a good move. No fear of refugees either, Howard stopped the illegals because we do not like being conned by gate crashers.

Then you have the hide to declare financial matters 'off topic'. No wonder with the present governments blunders and waste, you would fail miserably there. Nor do you want to compare Howard to the past or present PMs because you would lose that debate also.

WE supported our allies in Iraq and Afghanistan. What about East Timor? should we have not become involved there? Previous governments simply stood aside and let Indonesia do as it pleased.

Frankly, I do not care if my or your human rights are a bit compromised if it leads to the prevention of kids being abused and improves their health and education. What about the kids human rights?

You need to get your priorities right.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 4 January 2012 8:40:17 AM
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AB,

Compared to the slow motion train wreck that is the Rudd Gillard Labor government, the Howard government was a huge success.

Wobbles,

The middle class welfare was an incentive to encourage behaviour that benefited the state. Health insurance rebate meant that the government needed to spend less on public health. Private school subsidies, meant that less money was spent on education with better results.

And yes the lowest paid workers real income increased more under Howard than Hawke.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 4 January 2012 9:10:20 AM
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shadow..you have a mind..[so use it]
john howrd talked about average wages
not minimum wages

the averge wage went up all the time
funny how the millions..from middle classes [upper managment]
increase the average...even if the real wage..of the lower classes is ever chewed away by ever increased prices...

if only their wage
was linked to the true inflation rate

if only their wage..wasnt stolen by the lie of income tax
[see wage ISNT income..its wager..INCOME is proffit
derived from no value adding]

rent/shares..bank-intrest..
rates fines fees bonus..etc

tax only income
not wage

dont be fooled by howhards..'average earnings..
or average wage
they arnt the same thing's

you must surely know this
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 4 January 2012 9:27:13 AM
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It funny how so many of you are in full support of survival of the fittest when it comes to small business.

Fair enough I guess, after all, if you don't have what it takes to be that survivor, tish happens.

It's just a pity bosses of these small businesses can't apply the same standards to their workforce, isn't it!

We just don't have that level playing field.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 4 January 2012 10:22:54 AM
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I know that middle class income increased more under Howard because they were given the vast bulk of his tax cut largesse.
The poor were made to feel wealthy by flooding them with cheap credit.

I neglected to include our involvement in two unwinnable wars as well as the selling of public assets on his score card.

Economically he left us only $20 billion left out of a $300 billion resources boom plus a dud railway line as the only tangible public asset after his vote-buying spending.

Despite all these figures and opinions and without going into detail, I count myself as one of the victims of his term in office, with my own long-term career plans plus the ambitions of my immediate family trashed in the wake of his policies.
Posted by wobbles, Wednesday, 4 January 2012 2:02:49 PM
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I am with you Wobbles,
Honest John was a misnomer, he, like most pollies bent the truth, sometimes by omission of the facts.What we needed in his incumbency was a modern day Robin Hood, stealing from the rich, and giving it to the poor.
Cheers,
Noisy Scrub Bird.
Posted by Noisy Scrub Bird, Wednesday, 4 January 2012 3:23:53 PM
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Noisy, that robin hood thing already happens. Why else do you think the poor get handed all the freebies, it's because the rich don't.

Look out if the rich get a gut full of that system, then you will really know about the cost of living.

In this country one can have all the kids they want, cause someone else will foot the bill.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 4 January 2012 6:58:30 PM
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NSB good to see you active again have a great new year and stay please.
Rechtub is a mate of mine, no true, I am no believer in God any of them.
But from them great Wisdom comes, well from us, those Authors.
Rechtub you bring these words to my mind.
*forgive them they know not what they do*
I see increasing bitterness in your posts.
They have never been Labor/Union/Worker/Consumer friendly.
Are you having money problems, I hope not.
But many, great numbers,having walked too close to the cliff edge, blame every thing, even the sea Gulls, for the fall.
Social Welfare, from a trade unionist till death, Government enterprise, must be rebuilt.
Lean mean and for the needy not the greedy.
But your Robin Hood view?
Your words implies every one is a fraud.
Mate I am not rich, but would give you my last quid, any one who needs it, a human is not a lessor being because his/her life took paths other than yours.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 5 January 2012 4:14:36 AM
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Wobbles,

Wiggle as you might, the real income (not credit) of the working class increased by more under Howard than any other previous decade.

He inherited a $90bn debt from Labor, paid this back, left with a $20bn surplus and $70bn future fund. Krudd and Juliar have blown nearly $200bn in 4 years and left a legacy of bad policies and broken promises.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 5 January 2012 4:29:38 AM
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Belly I was simply pointing out that the robin hood situation already exists.

My wealth is not in money, but in the success of my family and that's something you can't buy.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 5 January 2012 5:34:31 AM
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<< Andreas Berg; What a load of rubbish ! >>

Agreed Bazz.

Howard’s primary fault was his promulgation and exaggeration of the continuous expansion mentality at a time when we so badly needed to start heading towards a stable population and a sustainable society. The most significant part of this was his increase to the immigration rate and then its maintenance at records levels for a decade.

Howards wasn’t too bad apart from that.

<< Don't much want to see anyone like any of the PM's we've had during my lifetime as our prime-minister again. >>

Got to agree with that, R0bert.

But the one I’d like to see PM again least of all is the only one that could possibly become PM a second time – KRdudd.

At least a hundred times worse than Howard!!

Rudd immediately boosted the immigration rate upon winning office, without giving us a clue that he would do such a thing in the election campaign.

And he did a heap of other deplorable things.
Posted by Ludwig, Thursday, 5 January 2012 10:37:20 AM
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I suppose working class income may have increased under Howard - until you take the GST into account. A Great Big New Tax on Everything!
Having more in your hand on payday doesn't matter if you're paying more than ever out before the next pay packet arrives.

The Health Insurance Rebate was more like a handout to private Health Funds in combination with cuts to Public Hospital Funding and was better suited to those who could have afforded it and at the expense of those that could not.

As for "blowing all that money", here we are post GFC near the top of the global economic heap with lower interest rates and unemployment than Howard ever managed to achieve. Some failure.
Posted by rache, Thursday, 5 January 2012 1:14:41 PM
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Rache,

I recall Howard got unemployment lower than 4%, and we are sitting at 5.3%, and the lower interest rates are only because the economy is struggling, and there is the largest deficit Australia has ever had, from the largest surplus in record time.

If the Labor government wasn't receiving the largest revenues from Mining in history, this country would be in trouble. Labor's economic credentials are torrid, and they haven't produced one successful policy.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 5 January 2012 2:38:02 PM
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We've seen over time on this forum that people
with different political inclinations may
interpret the same phenomenons in very different
ways.

In other words, people tend to see things
from a viewpoint of subjectivity. Some people looking
at the current government's key achievements
during their recent short time in office may see the
following positive achievments:

Things like - increased hospital funding
More help for pensioners,
Decisive action during the global financial crisis
Investing in new cancer research treatment centers,
1,000 new nurse training plus 1,300 new GP's.
Single National School Curriculum
Building Trades and Training Centers in our High Schools
Tax cuts in the last 3 budgets
Record investment in infrastructure such as - highways,
roads, and ports
Building a National Broadband Network
Creating 235,000 new training places
Investment in renewable energy
Abolishment of WorkChoices

And so on.

Others of course will only continue to see negativity
because their particular political party is not currently
in office. That's politics.
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 5 January 2012 3:31:35 PM
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record investment in infastucture
ports for exporting our resources
buuilding them gas lines in the desert
building them rail

when the miners shut down
it will all be ripped out and exported
[give or take 30 years]..yeah grwat stuff lexie

and we wasted our money paying double for services and utilities

lexie quote..""Building a National Broadband Network"""

yep billions so far
for 4000 users...!

noting that huge teliscope array..is connected to it
wil no doudt chew up all the bandwidth..cause its too expensive to store it...[in one minute apparently it fills hundreds of megga bits..

enough to fill all the digetal storage
man kind will ever produce]..its folly after folly
but that fibre will help move it on..[to someone]

""Creating 235,000 new training places""

wow i did 3 of them training thingies[under howard]
to gets the dole numbers down..

[while on the course your not unemployed]

plus redefining FULL employment..to 2 hours work?
well thats just too clever [and expensive]..by half

""Investment in renewable energy""

plyus a huge ten billion slush fund
govt still picking winners

[like solandra..who took billions in usa before going bust..or spain bankrupted by green jobs[now with 23% unemployment..now its done..]

""Abolishment of WorkChoices""

oh so your against choice are you
afraid to work are you

[see how clever names is all part of the game]

imagine your great grandkids]
hearing you say...we got rid of choices
so now you must work..where we tell you to work

paying income tax
lol..on wages

while corperate trusts get govt largess and bailout
and plenty of govt assistance

heck recall that 'spill'
they are allowed to spill that mch each two days
its just one day they released a little too much

ammonia..thats healthy right?

or how about..them salty chemical wells..
from them frakking frackers

when the floods wash
their poisened waters..into the inland-sea..[2013]

[plus their..free infastructre]

every excuse
is a further abuse

we trust govt..at our own peril
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 5 January 2012 3:55:31 PM
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Dear Johan (OUG),

Although I do respect your opinion - would
it be at all possible for you to try to
post in a more readable fashion - so that
it makes sense to us mere mortals.

Thanks.
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 5 January 2012 5:50:15 PM
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See Lexi, it gets to you, hey!

We have low unemployment for a few reasons.

As OUG says, if one is training they are off the dole list. Still unemplyed, but below the radar.

Our consultancy industry has boomed.

Compliance also, big brother, keeping a watchful eye on the tax payer, paid for by guess who, the tax payer. Talk about pissing into the fan.

Then we have the stuff ups that need fxing. Well, what can I say.

Yes Lexi, she is so so clever! hey!

But at least the numbers look great.

The wise people can read between the lines and the small print aint to pretty.

Dream on my dear!
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 6 January 2012 6:26:59 AM
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Shadow Minister,

If you care to check I think you'll see that national revenue from mining is somewhat overstated.

Some think that China is buying most of our coal for example, when they only but about 10% of what we produce.

Mining contributes about 10% of our total GDP and around 2% of jobs nationally.

While that's not insignificant in itself it keeps our dollar high and that is at the expense of the Manufacturing Sector, which employs even more people than mining.

Now guess whose policies were responsible for the decline of manufacturing in preference to an increase in service industries and which government is now trying to remedy that situation?
Posted by rache, Friday, 6 January 2012 10:39:13 AM
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Dear rehctub,

As an employer involved in a small business you should
know from experience that criticism and condemnation
does not achieve anything. Surely you've trained
staff not to waste time doing the easy thing - but if
they're unhappy about something - to try to come up with
a new idea, or a solution to the problem.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 6 January 2012 11:12:25 AM
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Rache,

The policies that are destroying manufacturing are the fair work act and now the carbon tax. Other idiot policies include the live cattle embargo on Indonesia, and the NBN.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 6 January 2012 1:05:08 PM
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Rache,

The federal tax revenues from mining have more than doubled compared to the Howard government, and have gone from about 10% of tax revenue then to nearly 30% now. And even with this bonanza, they still cannot balance their books. And before you start staying GFC, it has more to do with the public service ballooning by 6-10%.

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/scrutinynewtaxes_ctte/national_mining_taxes/report/c06_1.gif

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/scrutinynewtaxes_ctte/national_mining_taxes/report/c06_2.gif
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 6 January 2012 1:27:36 PM
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Lexi, sorry to say this but I am old school, which is, my way, or the highway, kind of sink or swim.

I will pick a worker by their body language and, if they have the old jellyfish hand shake, forget it.

I have had many apprentices and the only ones that have come out the other side are very good butchers, but, a I say to all of them, there are two things needed to succeed here, a good teacher and a good student. It is not possible without both.

Unfortunately we live in a protected society today, one that is often wrapped in cotton wool.

Banning the cane at schools has had far reaching consequences, beyond belief of the do-gooders of the day.

In my day, 70 hours a week was the norm, if one wanted to make their millions, these days this is frowned upon, and there in lies the problem.

Many of tomorrow's potential millionaires want the success, but without the hard work.

Good luck!
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 6 January 2012 2:17:01 PM
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Majority of posts here are related to economy. Naturally, this is extremely important part of societal functioning. Yet, can we claim that this is the most important part of societal functioning, and economic achievements should be gained by any humanitarian costs?
Adolf Hitler demonstrated his exceptional managerial skills in rapid building of Germany's industrial and military power.
Joseph Stalin's managerial genius converted Russia from mostly agricultural country with majority of illiterate population into world's political, industrial, military, scientific and cultural superpower.
By no means, I want to somehow compare John Howard with them. These examples are for the purpose of relevant consideration only.
Can John Howard's alleged managerial achievements in any area of societal life compensate public lies such as about Iraq's weapons of mass distraction, children overboard, Haneef's affair, agreement with Peter Costello etc., and our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan wars?
What are our most precious individual and social values then?
Posted by Andreas Berg', Friday, 6 January 2012 3:14:14 PM
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Yep OUG have to agree with Lexi.
Your word game post style is hard work, and no one gets the joy out of it you do, mate.
Every thread touching on politics ends up this way.
Abbott, if he survived and he will not, would be so much worse than Howard it is creepy.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 6 January 2012 4:08:53 PM
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Dear rehctub,

There's nothing wrong with being "old school," however
that should not equate with - it's "either my way or
the highway." That sort of attitude tends to put people
off and indicates a somewhat closed mind - a mind that will
be trapped in a time-warp, which could in certain
circumstances be unfortunate for all concerned.

There are many people who work long hours, raise families,
and contribute to society. That's nothing new.

As for "good luck?" Good luck is what almost always comes
to those who have a goal, and never, ever give up until
they achieve it. It's called persistence. The slogan -
"Press On," has solved and always will solve many of the
problems of the human race.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 6 January 2012 4:57:14 PM
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Abbott, if he survived and he will not, would be so much worse than Howard it is creepy.

Good call belly. Problem is, Julia is at a constant struggle to even come close to him.

It just goes to show how far we have slipped, don't you think?

Welcome to our race to the bottom we call politics.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 6 January 2012 6:42:36 PM
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After having read every post on this topic word for word, (and thanks Andreas Berg), for asking the question, Wobbles, supported by NSB have nailed it for mine, (if that matters to anyone anyway).

Can I say that the Howard tenure in Gov't to me, was a pall. It dragged down my happiness, my productivity,my creativity, (and that is my business), into an a world that perceived Australia internationally, as a hillbilly kingdom subservient to the US, and with that, my national pride, (a bit like losing interest in cricket because of betting). In the end there is nothing to believe in, and never there was.

Yes indeed Andreas, you are correct, Howard was the worst PM we ever had. Losing his own blue ribbon seat proved that categorically. The voters in his own electorate ignored their own natural tendency to vote LNP just to get rid of him. (lol)

They voted for "a tennis player" next time around (in the right guernsey) despite the high profile and influential nature of their local member Maxine McKew; affirming this beyond doubt.

And the fact that he couldn't even get a seat on an international cricket authority since then, confirms the fact in retrospect, "that his own constituents were correct in their judgement.
Posted by thinker 2, Friday, 6 January 2012 9:42:04 PM
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Rechtub for every action you can bet on it, another action takes place.
I think media has never been this lost and unfocused on truth.
That hung Parliament hurts us and helps the greens.
And that, like it or not both party's will improve because of current public perceptions.
And that a double Dissolution is to be crafted by one or the other side, this will return us to balance.
If you however see a return to Conservative rule as a savior, your disappointment will hurt.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 7 January 2012 5:39:38 AM
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Belly, I agree with you on this one.

I have predicted that the LNP will win government, then, after being blocked on any bill, they will call a DD election without hesitation.

This should have occurred with both Rudd and Gillard, they just knew they would get flogged.

Pollies need to be aware that they should do what's best for the people, not what's best for their own survival.

As for the post from T2'

How anyone can sit there and claim that Howard was worse than gillard mystifies me.

During what has to be the most wasteful four years in Australian government history, she was either sitting at number two, or number one on the hierarchy list.
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 7 January 2012 6:24:12 AM
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its funny...[in hindsight]
that during the howard years i resisted him every step
felt so upset about the things he was doing..i lived as an activist..with other activists..and not that sure pro-testing did any good..

but now left labour alone
after i realised i could do more activism..on my own
sleeping in my own bed..in comfort..live
on line and globally

so while being a loner on line
gets things more affectivly done
now im alone fighting the current beast
wheras before i was with friends..that distracted me

but man isnt meant to be alone
so the howard years i had real people as friends
now i just got vague names of posters and bits and pieces
but doing my work more affectivly[the easy way]...by lifting only one finger at a time

anyhow i put the thought where it was raised
im amased at how small those who lead us are

tiny dark spirits
in their two party mind
serving their mates the best of everything

putting their mates
abouve their duty

putting the core's greeds
before the peoples needs

[its ok when i was with real people
they said the same things]..at least now it got it in writing
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 7 January 2012 9:23:57 AM
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Thanks, Andreas, for having drawn our attention to what will be the most critical issue at stake in the next Federal election.

That even John Howard's own electorate of Bennelong voted him out in 2007 is confirmation that he the very worst Prime Minister in Australia's history, as thinker 2 pointed out.

Contrary to established wisdom by many who wear the label "left wing", there is a difference between the two major parties.

It is not the difference that they and the mainstream media would have us believe it is, but it is there and it is real.

The difference is that, for all its grave faults, the Labor Party is constrained by its formal ties to trade unions from carrying out attacks against workers in a way that the Liberal/National parties cannot be.

Whatever may be the wishes of some some Labor Party leaders, there is no way that they, in government, could be as nasty to its supporters as a Coalition government without there being a profound political crisis that would both threaten their rule over the Labor Party and the wealthy elites' rule of the entire country.

That is one reason why no Labor Government in history, even the appalling Hawke/Keating Government, has approached the nastiness of the Howard Government.

Our justified dismay at Julia Gillard, could so easily cause us to forget the far greater peril we would face if the alternative Government were to win office.

As terrible as the Howard years were, they could have even been worse. We only have to think of places like Chile in 1973 and Argentina in 1976 to see how Australia might have turned out if, for example, the maritime workers had not stood up to Howard's attempt to break their union with mercenary strikebreakers in 1998.

(ToBeContinued)
Posted by daggett, Sunday, 8 January 2012 5:48:25 AM
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(ContinuedFromAbove)

Much of the answer as to how Howard was able to get away with his appalling misrule for so long is to be found in the "Latham Diaries". Whatever can be said of Mark Latham since then, that book gives a most revealing and insightful understanding of what is wrong with the Australian Labor Party.

Howard only won the 2004 elections, amongst others, because state 'Labor' Governments of Bracks, Carr and Beattie and many, even within the Federal Labor Party actually preferred the continuance of Howard's misrule than to the election of a Federal Labor Government in 2004.

I recall a discussion I had with members of the Queensland Labor Party about John Howard in 1996. One had previously stood as a candidate for Wayne Goss when he was Premier. To my astonishment they were falling over themselves to praise John Howard, the same man who was savagely slashing Government services and who was to take Australia into the illegal war against Iraq in 2003. The praise was all because of because of Howard's stance against guns, which was supposedly driven by the Port Arthur Massacre. The subsequent years of support in practice for Howard by many in the Labor Party indicates to me that this was driven by more than just and emotive response to the carnage at Port Arthur.

In reality, we were ruled in those years by an even broader coalition which secretly consisted of the most corrupt elements in the Labor Party in addition to the Howard Liberal/National Federal Government.
Posted by daggett, Sunday, 8 January 2012 5:50:34 AM
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Dagger, like it or not, high wages are likely to bring this country down.

Now it may not happen in the next ten years, but I hope your kids are not planning to have kids, who intend to enjoy the lifestyle you have enjoyed, or at least could have.

Work choices did not effect skilled workers, as they simply went elsewhere as the economy was booming at the time.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 8 January 2012 6:11:34 AM
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high rents...excessive bonus...greed
will bring the nation down..a lot faster than high wage's

the more the workers got to spare
the better cut of meat they buy

the more they got to buy aussie..[made owned]
stop blaming them who served you..into your wealth

sure we hate paying what things are worth
but mate if its busibness..expense
govts allowing you a tax deduction

govts paying u..for your business expenses and depriciation
educating/training ya workers..[subsidising their rent]
paying their health costs

maintaining the footpath roads carparking..for you
your just too blind to noticve just how greedy you are

put some more water in ya mince
and cheer up.[get a new life]
at least your work/serfs

dont have to put up with you anymore
so stop worrying about what others are doing
and enjoy your retirement...soon you just might be critizising invesrtment fuind managers...because govt let business go tooo far

and no auditer checked their books
for the same price..as a cleaner cleans your mess up for you

i know kids cleaning up on cleaning up
for 6 bucks an hour..on a contract
or you could move to india
where a cleaner will clean you out for 2 bucks a day

no holydays no leave loading./..
retirement means you can stop your goading
that alone..might prevent your heart exploding
or the stress..[of it all]..causing a leak..in your brain
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 8 January 2012 8:42:43 AM
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Thank you dagget your right on the money. Combine this with the behaviour of corporations making decisions about what is right and wrong, and Govts of both persuasions ignoring their appallingly self interested decision making, doing so because if they (Govt's) try to do anything of behalf of the people/workers/consumers it will result in their demise.

Even Labors fundamental link to fairness via its union affiliations cannot save us or our country from this onslaught now, because of changes made in law of all kinds by Howard that at this point remain unchanged and have no prospect of change, no matter whom governs.

I have been trying to make this point on another current post about the loss of individual freedom.

Not only was Howard the worst PM we ever had, but the damage done by his dumb ideological tenure is self perpetuating and excelerating, destroying our living standards by institutionalising the power of the few, to the detriment of freedom of the all.

All one can do now is invoke discussion at the risk of having big brother watching you as was the subject of the front page of the Age Newspaper yesterday. Its not just forgetting how bad it could really be if we let the ideologues (LNP) back in power dagget, but the fact that freedom itself, is a concept not even understood by the young, as they have never really experienced it. This is how much damage the Howard Govt really did.
Posted by thinker 2, Sunday, 8 January 2012 10:36:42 AM
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Nice rant OUG, the little of it I could be bothered to read that is. Boy your posts are had work.

Mate, I always paid my staff what they were worth. At least in my industry, dead wood does not make the grade, usually taken up by the super markets. Very over paid.

As for the fund manager, mate, I have a tree farm that I invested in. No managers, no staff, life's great.

Nobody is in control,of my future, appart from myself.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 8 January 2012 7:46:48 PM
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Ok, so most of you hated Howard, so tell me, is Abbott better, or worse?
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 9 January 2012 5:28:49 AM
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Rechtub, do you truly think Abbott is one tenth of the person Howard was?
Look JWH lost his seat, we have gotten a heard mentality here, we forget why he lost it.
And too how he kept office, he was a politician.
Abbott is not.
He is like a prawn, they in the sea live on carrion.
Like it or not Gillard is his strength, he is hers.
And like it or not, Ostrich's may hide their head but Abbott and Gillard are third class leaders trying to do the impossible, for them, sell rotting raw fish outside the yellow arches
Posted by Belly, Monday, 9 January 2012 5:43:38 AM
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its ok tubbers..i read yours fully to comprehend you fully

ok ya got a tree farm
do you have the means to value add to it's 'product'
[and transport it to market]

and prune it and nurture it
[i recall the 60/70's scams...useless forrests of pine
no one tended...so the timber is worthless

heck man...at least a 1000$..cow
doubles its money every year[plus gives milk]
breeding chickens..means everyday you get a new chicken[possable new chicken]

i like to eat
so my investments are in seeds
one seed grows 5 pumpins..every season

you bought a forrest at the top of the market
in an oversaturated market...[how far you carry the trees to their market]..got a chainsaw..pruning hook..[carbon market?]

noting if sold for carbon
you can harvest

if not bying..for half the asking price
we pay too much[then there is forrest fires]
go figure forrests burn

the ones getting payed..govt funds to clearfell..then plant 'a billion trees'[greening australia]..great idea mate..[but most of them died...[of course the fencing sceme that was great too]

and water buy back..lol]
[ya gotta love that]

remember the main rule is diversification
and getting back the signed blue ink copy..of ya mortgauge..the bankers onsold to the securities industry...[cashed in]..long ago

now held..as a '..AAA+..bundled security'...
by some lord in china..[or london]
under written by ya super
Posted by one under god, Monday, 9 January 2012 6:00:18 AM
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OUG, my tree farm is just one of my assets mate, you see, i invested well in good times and have A grade investments from western downs, Brisbane city, bayside and north QLD.

My own home and NTh QLD have taken a hit, but Brisbane and my tree farm have boomed.

You see I research before I buy, so my TF was bought in what I saw as a further mining town, which turned out to be right.

It has increased about 8 to 10 fold in 8 years and, it has timber to the tune of a couple of million.

Now as for value adding, yes I do.

I dont have my own transport as it is not worth having a stale asset like a truck sitting around.

We also harvest in a way that ensures regrowth, so my sons son will benefit. He's not born yet.

So thanks for the heads up mate, but I am pretty good thanks.

Did I mention NO STAFF! Or land lords.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 11 January 2012 9:52:55 PM
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