Dear pelican,

You said; "While you have both found this sense of community through your faith, I believe that wherever people group together good can come whether it is an environmental group, a hobby club or the local P&C."

Lexi and I were speaking about two entirely different things. Lexi found comfort and strength through her personal prayer regime and as stated it can be quite effective.

I was addressing the very real material benefits of belonging to a large community group. Where a church, especially a fundamentalist one, has it over the other organizations you mentioned is it's confessional nature. While we might hear about a bowls club member's struggle with alcohol or gambling or cancer through the grape vine in a church everybody hears about it and there is a coming together to help or comfort.

In my experience the mainstream churches do it a little differently for instance there might be a prayer vigil for the Haitian earthquake victims or the Japanese tsunami. In a fundi church it is far more about the daily lives of its members. Sure there is a sense of doing God's work in that setting and that is important but for this topic the rewards, both physical and mental, are very material.

There is also a sense of being protected if trouble comes. We might think of universal health cover an extension of this to the rest of the community. I am happy conceding the instigators of many of our social services legislation would have been Church going folk, wanting to take the benefits they experienced within the flock to the greater community.

Hi csteele

"There is also a sense of being protected if trouble comes. We might think of universal health cover an extension of this to the rest of the community. I am happy conceding the instigators of many of our social services legislation would have been Church going folk, wanting to take the benefits they experienced within the flock to the greater community.'

I can certainly see the benefits of this wider community but only if it remains true and like any organisation is not corrupted. I cannot comment about social services legislation or it's origins, particularly as so many fundamentalist Christians in the US seem dogmatically opposed to any form of welfare or distribution of wealth via health care while the rich continue to receive tax breaks.

Certainly some Christians and some atheists, some buddhists, some Muslims, etc all aspire to this sense of community.

Human variation means we cannot label Christianity or any other group as being wholly good or wholly bad. I would see it as whatever works for the greater good and as long as power structures are not exploited in using religious authority for ill purpose.

Praying for a community after disaster may not be as helpful as on-the-ground practical support and care, but that is a natural reaction from an atheist I suppose. However, I can see that prayer is important for some and I would not seek to deny or diminish it's effect.

In light of Graham's post, wellbeing comes from within and I concede this 'englightenment' can come from many sources that inherently do no harm.

I once toyed with the idea of Christianity, more in the style of a Stephen Crabbe perhaps than say of a Peter Sellick or a Cardinal Pell but could not get past the incredulity of a supernatural 'idol' in my own appraisal. It felt dishonest, despite the wonderful richness of ideas such as 'do unto others'.

The Bible was disappointing. I was surprised at some of the passages, taken literally many were disconcerting, rather than finding love there was fear, hate, revenge particularly for the unbeliever; and women did not fare well. The emphasis was on obedience and forgiveness for sins rather than doing right. I found it to be too negative as regards the human spirit even though I acknowledge the majority of Christians do not possess this negativity.

Perhaps Buddhism is more my style, although there is also a supernatural element in reincarnation. I like the positive aspects in striving for enlightenment through a generosity to others, self improvement and overcoming worldly desires (consumerism etc).

I recently enjoyed a program about Quakers. I liked the quiet way they went about their business and their interest in protecting 'God's' environment and being true to the principles of a simple life. The Quakers also started Greenpeace initially against nuclear testing in the US which caused cancers in innocent particpants and citizens before GP branche out into other areas.

The argument that today's atheists benefit from a Christian heritage may be true to some extent, it is difficult to categorically dismiss outright other than to argue the human propensity for good is inherent. Maybe the process is an evolutionary one so to speak, religion being a human construct to facilitate this 'community process' and natural goodness - the Bible was written in more barbaric times.

I don't claim to have answers, only questions but am generally content in my 'spiritual skin' while always seeking to do better.

Excuse me for a little diversion.
My first post here admitted my view belief can be a benefit.
Some charge me,wrongly in my view, with posting in heat.
About politics and this subject.
I have no Axe to grind against belief.
But against some who twist that belief.
My dream of a better world in Christ did not leave me biter.
I even understand the slow death of our belief is a negative for our every day behavior.
I am once again full of deep gloom this morning.
Every day it seems news papers tell of pedophilia in Church or Church boarding schools.
This morning the head of a Catholic Church district, who over looked charges against his fellow Priests, was found with thousands of teen age male porn photos.
Those teens wearing Holly things in the photos.
And, while reading those papers online ABC news 24, 6 hours of repeatedly repeated news, 4 victims spoke of the hell they suffered here.
Some suffer because of belief, and its sometimes the parents belief that will not let them believe their child.
Are Church subject to infection from such? are some not even believers who join for other reasons.
And are questioners like me right or wrong to do so.
Some pain exists by my actions , but is inaction an answer?

holy texts are guide books...must be read as such
not rule books..[they have a mix of materialist heaven and materialistic hell]..to learn of god [good]..read the good bits

if your in hell..you quote the bad bits
revealing to all your in hell[especially to your kids]

bellicose quote..""Some suffer..because of belief,""

diss-belief...is the sufferance
many suffer..via the beliefs they diss..believe
[rejecting love,...hope/grace mercy/light love life
thus chosing sufferance]

""sometimes the parents belief
that will not let them believe..their child.""

often children reject their parents 'belief'..
especially when they see their DISSBELIEF..or their belief..is causing them..to suffer.

""Are Church[ies?]..subject to infection from such?""

their own kids..*judge them
as much as..the parents taught them..'to judge'

""are some not even believers..who join for other reasons.""

we all do the wrong/right things
for the wrong or right reasons

the good thing is
god dont judge..either way
[more shall be a given]

""And are questioners..like me
right or wrong to do so."''

there is no truelly right
or truelly wrong

your questioning..your honesty..
your being the real you..helps the kids to be real too

""Some pain exists..by my actions
but is inaction..an answer?""

never mate
it all depends..on what we intended to do
if good intent..its all good

if its nanny state oppressing
in ignorance or not..its oppression
but why oppression...when there are other ways?

those who mandated sulfer..to make tobacco burn..
then mandated an-other poisen..to stop it burning..

[well they]..support the chemical medical/law/govtern mental
and other oppresive colluding vile...

[by their works..will we know them]
but never judge them...

cause it joins their vile
into..our own soul..

forgive
forget

questioners question
forgivers forgive
judges judge

u be you
ok?

Dear Pelican,

You wrote; "In light of Graham's post, wellbeing comes from within and I concede this 'englightenment' can come from many sources that inherently do no harm."

I'm not sure how you arrived at that from Graham's post since I saw it as directed at the health aspects of the consequences of a religious life. I'm just describing a mechanism by which these gains are realized.

I recall an interview Phillip Adams did with an Australian longtime aid worker in Africa. Though not sympathetic to their views she conceded that the fundi lot were the most effective on the ground. They would ask her what was required and compared to other groups offering help they quickly and efficiently got on with the job. The same record stands after Hurricane Katrina where church groups shouldered and enormous part of the burden. There are still victims being housed in fundi homes.

"Human variation means we cannot label Christianity or any other group as being wholly good or wholly bad."

Of course we can't. My brother-in-law who ran a small fundi church for a while had one of his more troubled flock arrange to have his place burgled three times and that of his brother twice. All on a Sunday morning of course.

But just like collectivism gave us everything from the trade union movement which provided a mechanism to ford the fast flowing waters of the industrial revolution to kibbutzs which helped forge a new state and communism to tear down centuries of serfdom, fundi churches are just another mechanism of their time and place.

Certain degrees of personal freedom, including freedom of thought, are given up whenever we join any group. Indeed while very much not a joiner I did become a member for a while of the Australian Democrats, a party that was possibly the most accommodating of different views, but even there the temptation to buy into the whole package was strong.

Cont...