In recent news we see the ethics body of accountancy in Australia, penalising two of its own, for failing to declare publicly, that the figures they supplied the LNP in support of their economic policy platform, "did not" represent an audit.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/lib-policy-costings-exposed-by-ruling-20111130-1o773.html

At the same time the LNP has pounced upon a productivity commission report, claiming that the Gov'ts NBN modelling is anti-competitive.

As if a piece of infrastructure, (such as the NBN actually is), is instead a facility to be carved up amongst their constituents in business, in the future. They (the LNP), have it sold before it's even built.

Modern Australian economic history has basically been a case of taxpayers and the Labor Party creating infrastructure and the LNP later selling it off, (and not unlike Tom Thumb), saying "what a good boy am I".

The NBN like any public road, will belong to all Australians. It will restore communications sovereignty and bring the future of communications forward for all Australians.

The manic ideology of the LNP supported by dodgy figures and suppositions and false claims of former economic credibility, is not enough alone, to allow them anywhere near Gov't in the current future.

Hands off the NBN and an end to the privatisation of essential infrastructure and services please, enough is enough.

What a compliant memory you have Thinker.

The worst ever bit of privatisation from the public's point of view, was the Commonwealth Bank, closely followed by water in southern states.

That must have been the LNP then must it, thinker?

Thinker 2 you sin! you start a thread based on one of many truths.
Some Blinkered find that unacceptable.
The NBN is an achievement, not yet completed but subject already, to the for sale signs.
Likely enough former Liberal members will be on the board of those who purchase it.
And even share holders.
Be aware thinker 2 only Labor sins, in some closed eyes minds and some just never yet been seen open.
70 Billion black hole? do not be concerned , non core promises will fix that.

I recall that (the sale of the CBA) being done with bi-partisan support of the LNP, Hasbeen.

When it comes too the sale of valuable, profitable infrastructure, Telstra was the doosie.

Banks don't really produce infrastructure (except for teller machines), necessitated by their own procedures Hasbeen. But I do concede that both sides have proceeded down the path of privatisation at some point to the detriment of services and quality of service for us, the end users.

The LNP continue down this path, never learning the lessons of the past and most probably with plans to screw working people again with their ideological industrial agenda always lurking around somewhere.

As soon as a LNP Gov't arrives in Victoria we see the economy contracting, we see a connection/liason exists between the Premier and the Alpine cattle lobby, the new Police Minister appears to have participated in the undermining of a Police Chief and they authorised the beating of the stuffing out of Occupy protesters.

Not a good start I fear in Victoria for our new state LNP Gov't, Hasbeen.

Indeed the NBN should not be privatized - it should be smashed, torn down, and locked away with the key thrown in the deepest part of the arctic ocean.

There is nothing essential about it - it's but another step in the government drugging people with digital entertainment and ever more silly electronic devices diverting us further and further away from what life is really about.

I do recall it was not the LNP in power, & I don't recall any mandate being sort for the CBA.

It is no use blaming others for Labor mistakes.

I'm not sure about Telecom, it was just so inefficient that perhaps it had to be sold to become efficient. It was still overstaffed after a 70% reduction. It really doesn't matter much today, the market is so changed.

Selling the bank lost control of the sector, & enabled the profiteering we see today. It couldn't have happened with the CBA in government hands.

I also think water was a huge mistake, forced by State Labor governments profligate spending.

Of course it's hard to know who is worst, public servants, who fail at every hurdle, [Wivenhoe management or Vic bush fires], or profiteering private companies, particularly those fleeing the collapsing EU.

Perhaps Hanrahan was right, & we'll all be rooned.

over 190 country's, yesterday took the stick to Sir NO on climate change.
History has already made comments seen here living Satire.
I get the feeling the same will be seen in this issue.
I too, feel no self examination will take place.
No how did I let myself fall for that thoughts.
Such is life for those who place a blindfold over their minds on any issue and buy/sell a party line with little concern for truth.

T2, the whole problem stems from labor's inability to run the economy, without blowing out the credit card.

Now if they (labor) could just run things in the black, there would be no need to sell anything, as things are usually only sold to repay debts.

In fact, the main agenda behind the mining tax is to repay debt, as there is simply nothing left to sell.

So instead of accusing the LNP of selling us out, you and your supporters would be better off finding a way for labor to stop wasting money.

We will always have changes in government, as people simply can't leave well enough alone and need a change, it's just a pity that not all governments are capable of keeping the bank balance in credit.

Durban was a Bust. The Much heralded conference with the aim to produce an agreement to supersede the Kyoto protocol produced no emissions reduction agreement, only an "agreement" to begin negotiations, with a target date for completion in 4 years with no inherent targets and a start date not before 2020.

This is at best face saving window dressing, and worth as much as Neville Chamberlain's peace deal with Hitler.

We have 4 years of bureaucrats and greenies living off the hog, with still no guarantee of any results.

Juliar Gillard and Labor are isolated, and have taken Australia on a solo crusade with the world's highest carbon price.

What happened to your $40 / ton prediction. You are scratching around in the bottom of a barrel. Trying to find some grit.

579,

I never made any prediction of $40/t. I was referring to the productivity report which indicated that a $40/t price on Carbon dioxide was required before it became economical to shift from coal generation to gas. For those with an IQ this means that there will be no significant reduction in emissions with the carbon tax as it stands. All the "reductions" come from buying shonky carbon credits from overseas.

The topic of the thread was the NBN whose updates to the corporate plan is the best kept secret of the labor party and makes a complete mockery of Juliar's promise of transparency.

The estimates from industry professionals and the NBN's own consultants are that the NBN is not going to be completed anywhere south of $50bn, with running costs exceeding that of the corporate plan by billions, and several years after the announced date. The NBN is a black hole into which Labor is pouring taxpayers' money, and hiding the waste by posting the company at book value.

The NBN is no longer looking like a white elephant, but more like a Ponzi scheme of the type that got Madoff locked up for life.

I think a special award should have gone to Liberal ex-Premier Fahey who had the wonderful idea of selling off the NSW Bank for the equivalent of 14 months worth of profits.

Some may suggest this was criminal but I thinks it's more a matter of looking after one's political mates and sponsors.

Beyong the partisan hysteria and misinfomation - -

The ‘funds” being used to build the NBN can’t be redirected elsewhere, because unlike other spending, the NBN produces a return.

The money spent on it will come back as revenue from the network. This means the NBN is off-budget, and has no impact on the ability to fund other projects.

But, even if NONE of it came back and the spending was on budget, let’s put it into perspective.

Over the 10-year construction of the NBN, Australian Governments will spend:

over $1,200 billion ($1.2 Trillion) on social security/welfare
over $1,000 billion ($1 Trillion) on public healthcare
over $500 billion on public education
over $500 billion on welfare/pensions etc
over $220 billion on defence
about $40 billion on the NBN

The Government contribution to the NBN represents about 0.2% of GDP per annum, and less than 1% of total taxation revenue per annum.

This is about the same as it was for the Snowy Mountains Scheme - which Menzies bitterly opposed at the time, but later took credit for.

This is just another political stick for Abbott to use against the government just for the sake of doing it.

Rache,

That the $50bn is a small part of the annual spend does not give the government the license to waste it.

The NBN is not going to provide a return. The projected blown out construction and operating costs are going to ensure that it requires tax payer bail out for generations. On top of this the planned massive roll out of 4G networks by Telstra and Optus are going to strip the NBN of customers.

If this is such a wonderful scheme, why not open the books, and allow a productivity study as other more minor projects have done? the answer is that this entire scheme is a Ponzi style Labor pork barrel.

Actually, SM, Rache is correct on one point - the NBN would provide a return if it is allowed to proceed (but of course it will be scrapped immediately after the next elections!). There would be no need for much explicit tax-payer money because the NBN is a tax in itself, cutting off people's essential communication lines and then forcing them to "purchase" something expensive that they don't want or need just to keep what they had before.

Whatever excuses they make, it really has three purposes:

1) to drug people with entertainment.
2) to enable government surveillance of our homes.
3) to provide good jobs for the bureaucrats' relatives and friends.

Those who can not see are blind and for that I am sorry.
Those who refuse to see however are far different.
Conservatives have a history of refusing to see.
Or is it deceiving them selves?
Read what they said in relation to Kackadu National Park.
The implementation of a National Superannuation scheme.
Hear Howard's words there will be no GST then there will be.
Abbott said no to extra Superannuation then yes.
And for a country that needs communications more than most, we step in to the 21st century with most of the developed world.
Surrounded by the black crows of Conservative LUDDITES

Belly,

The technologically inept NBN is relying on one size fits all technology when FTTN can deliver the same speeds for less than half the price, and wireless will probably take 1/3rd of the market by 2020.

The NBN will deliver the most expensive partially obsolete network by 2020 in the world. Another example of Labor waste.

@Shadow Minister

Hey Shadow, I see you are still in the business of making predictions. Not too long ago you were saying no one will need the speed can ADSL delivers now, let alone the speeds the NBN could deliver.

Well here is a graph for you: http://i.imgur.com/Rb3mq.png

No, I don't know where they got the figures from, so take them with a grain of salt. And no, I don't have a clue what they are using all that bandwidth for either. But if this pattern continues your "the NBN is not going to provide a return" will end up looking one your better miss fires.

Oh, and all claim that the NBN will raise prices qot squashed - the NBN has now committed to not raise prices by more than 1/2 the CPI for the next decade. And your hugely felt concern over Telstra not being able to advertise wireless as a fixed line alternative - well that provision has gone too.

The NBN is to be built from the outside in ensuring that electors in the nether regions will see the benefit first. Presumably most of these people (who's lives will be transformed first by fast internet) normally vote LNP. It is for this reason that I sense your concern SM

Your allegation that the NBN is a Labor ponzie scheme is laughable and doesn't even constitute misinformation. Sorry SM but your view is nothing more than a Neo LNP toss.

It's like saying that the building of hospitals is a Labor ponzie scheme. I for one am not fond of the current Telstra monopoly created by the Howard Gov't when they sold our telecommunications network for a song to same people whom have attempted to stall and sabotage the Gov'ts attempts to provide world class telecommunications infrastructure ever since, in the NBN.

"The last thing anyone would want to do is sell an essential services monopoly". John Howard did it.

It would have been a lot cheaper to implement the NBN had we not sold Telstra in the first place, on that you can rely SM.

rstuart and thinker 2 have your measure SM.
I struggle along behind shaking my head trying to understand how you come up with this.
And how Australia will handle the coming fall.
The formula appears to be this.
Labor is wrong, always
Abbott's NO alition is right , always
ANY examination, any at all, will see the impending change of government.
[ Labor haveing no intention of getting Gillard out/contending the election]
We are to install a party not even closely related to Truth, honesty, or good governance.

The constant whining about so-called “cost-benefit analysis” misses the point.

The NBN is not a Shopping Centre – it’s national infrastructure.
What’s the cost-benefit analysis of a local Hospital or a National Highway?

More to the point, what is the economic cost of NOT having a particular highway? Nobody knows or cares cares until the highway is blocked.

Demanding that the NBN turns a profit is like demanding that every highway, road and track in Australia becomes a profitable tollway.

Most people don't "need" an all-weather asphalt road capable of supporting vehicle speeds of 100 kilometres an hour by a 50-tonne B-double semi-trailer - or, for that matter, by an SUV the size of Venezuela laden with an eight-year-old child, 10kg of shopping and a soccer ball.

Nevertheless we provide such roads at taxpayers' expense for those who do need them, such as freight companies, or those who imagine they do. Any analysis that looks solely at individual home usage is just wrong.

In any case The OECD report Network Developments in Support of Innovation and User Needs from December 2009 shows that a fibre-to-the-home network like the NBN could pay for itself in 10 years, even if fully government-funded.

Nor is the NBN about providing what individuals need today. It's about building for the future.

The piecemeal alternative of some mongrelised network made up of 4G phone, Wireless Hotspots and bits and pieces is as future-proof as was the now-defunct Howard/Fisher CDMA phone network - provided at enormous public expense just to soothe rural voters when the CDMA was switched off.

Rstuart,

You are selectively misquoting me. I said that the existing ASDL speeds meet all the functionality requirements that Juliar used to justify the NBN. People buy Porsches that can do 300kmph, I have yet to find anyone that needs that speed.

Your little graph is of the distribution of the first few technophiles that took up the service and is highly unlikely to represent the general population.

My predictions on wireless take up as we have discussed before are based on other OECD countries take ups, and given the rapid advance in wireless 30% take up by 2020 is simple to predict.

The reason I called the NBN a ponzi scheme is that its finances are starting to resemble a ponzi scheme in that the company is sticking to its predictions of a 7% return based on its business case in spite of warnings from the NBN's own consultants that:
1 - Costs of construction are blowing out
2 - operational costs in the business case are unrealistic
3 - The project is already far behind schedule
4 - There are now no further restrictions on Telstra and others from rolling out parallel wireless 4G networks.

The request by the NBN to increase costs by inflation +5% p.a. for a decade was simply to meet its increased costs. Labor made a political decision to limit its increases to 1/2 inflation, yet still insists it is going to make a profit. Really! how stupid do they think we are? The fact that NBN co's finances are state secrets should indicate that all is not well in NBN never never land.

Labor is using Enron type accounting, NBN co does not appear as an expense on the government's books as the money poured into the company is marked as an asset at book value. The crunch comes when the books are opened and the real value is a fraction of the book value and the pyramid collapses and the difference needs to be marked as a government deficit. Juliar intends to happily hand this can of worms to the next government.

Perhaps you can get some liars, spivs or dodgy accountancy firms to verify that for for you SM

Sorry,

They are all working for Labor.

Thinker 2 I have admiration for your posting style.
Think you may well be a green but understand you have understanding and insight, SM has not.
You pointed out others too, the accountants who did the scandalous numbers for the last election on behalf of conservatives lied.
They as you know, got fined by their own professional body.
SM knows that too.
Look Labor has made mistakes, not worse than the way Rudd went, only some one Else's self interest could have not seen him reigned in.
But I do truly, honestly think, Negative man, his front bench in part.
Lie with intent.
That history will shame them.
A cardinal way, used daily, is to accuse Labor of the sins they know they do.
No Opposition in my life ever had such poor financial plans understanding than this team.
What other would be PM ever told us on national TV he lies often.

I too appreciate and take in your posts Belly.

SM seems to have forgotten that my original post links to reports of the dodgy economic claims made by the current LNP leadership and team. So I guess this particular accountancy firm from Perth were not working for the Labor Party, at least SM.

The underlying historical facts in modern Australia economic history and (even before that) is that the big important economic decisions have been made by Labor Gov'ts. Menzies was opposed to the Snowy Mountains Scheme, then later claimed credit for it, if you wan't to go back that far.

The A$ wasn't floated by a LNP Gov't. Howard received a golden economy and proceeded to re-distribute the wealth and power of that golden economy to the wealthy.

I go back to my original assertion, "the LNP can make no claim of economic credibility", particularly when suppressing the truth of their economic platform, by instead deliberately misleading the Australian public, with knowingly false claims of audit. The responses from Messrs Hockey Abbott and Robb have been disgraceful, attempting to deflect in a truly shameless display of arrogance.

This is our lives they,(the LNP) are playing with here, this is much worse on the scale of deception than being stuck in a bind and having to change your policy, as we see with Gillard and the Carbon Tax.

If they are deliberately lying from the opposition benches now, imagine if they actually won. You would have no idea what they (Abbott and Co) may actually do if elected, until it happens, and then it would be too late.

I don't recall an Australia Gov't that was ever elected or became popular because it was professional at deception when in opposition Belly, and I don't think we are about too see one in the near future either. Let's hope so for our sakes.

cheers T2

I seem to recall that it is labor that has 2 ex ministers and one sitting MP presently being investigated for graft and corruption. Let alone the convictions for paedophilia etc.

Good on ya SM! the low blow is descriptive.
Like a king hit ,always comes from those without the ability to stand toe to toe.
Note you share my dislike, well no, in my case it is a much stronger word starters with H for our grubs.
Yours seem deeper in the wood not as likely to be found guilty or even uncovered.
One recently walked away Scot free.
Just a tip, hate/blindness/ are not some thing you can use to bring support, turns most off.
Well tried, but if you need it I can put a short list of insults together as a Christmas gift.

"That the NBN has never been subject to a rigorous and thorough cost-benefit analysis is a source of shame for the minister and should alarm taxpayers. Conroy's criticism of the PC is both inappropriate and ill-advised.

Judith Sloan was a commissioner of the Productivity Commission between 1998 and 2010."

T2 if Labor is all about transparency as they espouse, then why when it is standard practise to vet government projects through the productivity commission, does Labor refuse to do so, and keep their costing a state secret. This is corruption at Juliar's level.

Belly I am not talking about the myriad of past investigations, just the 3 presently under way on 2 ex NSW ministers and Thomson from which none have walked away.

Wobbles you make a good point with you say.

I think a large part of problem is the people's faith in labor's ability to administer the NBN without getting it wrong. Let's face it, thier track record of getting things right is far from admirable.

The other piece that has always puzzled me is the future, or more so, the future useres of the NBN, today's youth.

I find it hard to believe that they will forgo the flexibility of thier mobile network in favor of a fixed line.

Finally, I fear it will make outsourcing of IT work that much more attractive, something that I fear may cost jobs.

The biggest problem is people like yourself attempting to talk down or belittle anything and everything the Gov't attempts.

The reality is that the Gov't really has had a very successful year of delivery as promised by the PM.

If your referring to pink bats and schools halls,during the Rudd tenure, the crooks who set up businesses to take advantage of the taxpayers, during the pink bats grants are now being prosecuted for the breaches in workplace safety regulations and their shoddy workmanship and otherwise destroying what was otherwise a very good idea.

Of course you won't find any info about these prosecutions on the pages of the Australian newspaper, even though they have been going on ever since.

And as for people working from home, even right wing sycophants like yourself understand the benefits of people being able to work from home. Even air pollution would be reduced by such trends and even this ever essential flexibility in the workforce touted by the business community might be possible. And as you well know Rehctub more jobs may be created not lost by the NBN.

And as for final attempt as misinformation, the young won't accept anything but the best when it comes to technology and therefore will be the first to accept the superior speeds of super fast broadband over the slow and inferior wireless alternative.

I don't know why you persistently bob up from the stone age with your constantly and deliberately misleading rubbish.

When it come's to you and Shadow Minister. It is time a spade was called a spade. But then again your own political parties of choice constantly lie and mislead on purpose. Got you all doing it haven't they ?.

I can hardly wait till the next election in 2 yrs time to see the looks on their faces when they get smashed for all their deliberate deceptions, and untruths, because no one dislikes lying whingers more than an Aussie.

"And as you well know Rehctub more jobs may be created not lost by the NBN."

Is creating jobs ever a problem?

If so, the solution is simple: take more taxes, then hire thugs to go about the streets and break peoples' legs, then hire doctors to fix those legs and wholla - you have full employment!

T2

"Successful year of delivery"

1 - Greens carbon tax that Juliar promised "not under the government I lead" Great own goal! Solo in the world and not even revenue neutral.
2 = Mining tax - yet another Labor tax. I fail to see the achievement.
3 - East Timor / Malaysian solution - OOPs! Epic fail.
4 - Reduce deficit to $12 for 2011/2 - OOPs! now $37bn.

+ a record of 3 Labor MPs being investigated for corruption.

God help us from any further deliveries.

I agree SM that they haven't done enough yet. At least the Carbon Tax got up. I am in favour of that.

The Malaysia Solution actually worked a treat for the few weeks it existed, until rejected by the Senate. I see the people coming in on planes and overstaying their visa's a much bigger problem anyway SM.

As for the Mining Tax, it should go further to include gold. And the achievement is, "that money is collected from the big end of town and used to fund infrastructure for Australia's future". "This should have been a basic aim or tenet, underpinning any contract made by our Gov't that allows overseas companies to dig up and sell our resources on open markets".

Just like the Snowy mountains project once was, the NBN (that you omit to mention amongst the Govt's achievements),even though it is a plank in my original post, is an essential piece of infrastructure with the future in mind SM.

And as for the deficit we all know that the world economy is about to turn to dung for a while, this does effect the bottom line for our country too.

T2

I didn't include the NBN, as almost nothing has been delivered yet. I don't know even remotely of anyone connected to the NBN, and only about 12% of those that can are taking it up.

All I see is the Ponzi like book keeping.

The new Victorian Baillieu Govt has managed break practically every promise it has made since being elected.

It now proposes to whack up stamp duty on cars, shed thousands of jobs from the public service, steal $471.5 bn from the states Workcover pool by acting as underwiter so it can pretend that it actually has something to do with its projected budget surplus.

Economic management prowess my rear end. Combine this with the obviously entirely corrupt political activities of people like Deputy Premier Peter Ryan, that includes (a) the disbanding of the OPI in support of people like Mullet, Ashby and Co and replacing it with a toothless corruption body answerable too politicians,(b) having cattle tramp over Alpine National Parks belonging too all Victorians and (c) Granting Timber Companies leases that will spell the end of habitat for wildlife in Victoria, I doubt that you will see a worse pack of liars and ideological sycophants than the Ballieu Gov't in action.

It's like the state has become one big real estate development that only those whom are buddies of the Gov't can take part in.

All this as they run the state's economy to halt economically because because there is no in this Gov't with any capacities whatsoever other than abusing privilege and power from the get go.

I just doesn't get any worse than this, and it is only their first year.

T2,

Stripping down a bloated bureaucratic system left from labor (through attrition) and working to reduce the typical labor debt was precisely the good economic management required.

Far better than the NBN ponzi scheme.

To get back on subject SM, the standard and type of debate in politics in Australia today has degenerated to new lows in times of late.

An opposition using slanted figures supplied by cherry picked private accountancy firms, and touting them as being equivalent to a treasury audited figures during elections and doing so deliberately with an intention being to mislead the voting public, goes beyond the pail. How low can you go.

In the case of Victoria, the Gov't seems to be being led by Deputy Premier Peter Ryan, (whom should already have been sacked as Police Minister for the mere possibility of his complicity), in the undermining of former Police Commissioner Simon Overland.

Federally, the NBN is an essential piece of infrastructure that must get up. A deceitful Federal opposition operating on behalf of vested interests is the last thing Australia's economy needs right now.

Newly elected LNP State Gov'ts have adopted a tactic of throwing spanners in the works of federal programs like the National Health Agreement and the Mining Tax by the WA Gov't, and let's not forget the shooting of the endangered sharks proclamation.

In NSW it was upsetting the public service down to the firefighters with wage freezes in a Workchoices a la O'Farrell upon the Gov't own employee's. Same now in Victoria with 10% cuts to the public service, increases in stamp duty on cars and "transferring funds from the public nest egg in money from Workcare to consign manageable debt is insane".

It's like going from owning your own home, too selling it to someone and renting it back of them, "and accept liability if the house falls down as well". This is exactly what the Vic Gov't has done by under writing the risk in exchange for the taxpayers money, in order that it's budget surplus be admired.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/money-shuffle-is-no-substitute-for-creating-real-wealth-20111215-1oww9.html

The politics of economic sabotage and the talking down of Australia's prospects, I hope will dissipate somewhat in 2012, with the Gov't on the floor of the house in a stronger position, no matter whom leads the Labor Party next year.

T2,

What a dummy spit! having posted 8 paragraphs of vitriolic drivel that bears no resemblance to the truth.

The truth is that Labor has stuffed up every project it has touched from pink batts to school halls, and now to the NBN. The coalition has a far better record, and the public recognise this.

The coalition also does not have 3 present and former MPs on corruption charges.