An interesting article on a study into children and male role models. The study finds that delinquency in boys is less when they have a male role model, but that the presence of a male role model for girls makes little difference. http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/11/26/a-fathers-mere-presence-lowers-risky-behavior-in-teen-boys/31915.html

It doesn't appear to matter whether the male role model is a father, or whether they actually live in the family home.

How does this fit with other's experience. It intuitively makes sense to me, which is why I've gone to extreme lengths to be involved in all of my kids lives even though none of them lives with me.

Dear Graham,

I'm not sure that I agree with the statement that
boys need a father, but girls not so much. I think
that both boys and girls need parents who love
and care for them and are involved in their lives.
I Congratulate you for having the wisdom to be
involved in your children's lives. From my own
experience - I am grateful that our children
flourished under our nurturing. My husband's
honesty, devotion, and unconditional love bound all
of us together in an inseparable state of familial
bliss that has been unshaken to this day. We've had
our ups and downs like any family but we've stuck
to the promise we made - to be there fully for each
other for (as long as we are there).

Its probably got some merit, although, positive role models from both sexes for male and female children can only be a good thing. There is a PLETHORA of nuances in a family dynamics which can end in positive outcomes for kids. I don't think there is a 'rule' for what is best as many single parents of either sex can raise a well rounded and grounded kid.

I think I probably tend to agree, although both my kids are really no trouble at all, despite their mother's best efforts to pretend otherwise.

That may be cultural conditioning, of course.

I have found my daughter is the one that always favored me even now that she is 32 years of age. My son was always more independent as a teenager, and now even more so, he has had the same job since leaving school, and now looking at long service.

I agree Graham.
I have seen boys with no man in their life struggle.
Girls do love their dads but its mum who has the biggest influence.

I can't see the good in this type of research, all kids need two good parents.
Both my wife of 22 years and the girl I was with before her have almost identical backgrounds, their fathers were both in the Air Force and they both walked out on their families when the kids were infants. My wife saw her Dad once when she was 8, the other girl met hers for the first time at age 20 and it was a disaster, he broke her heart all over again.
I'd say from experience that girls definitely do need a Father around, the absence of a Father does have a serious negative effect on their development and well being.
I'd question the motivation of the people doing this research, it seems to be a fairly nefarious, or at best unhelpful project.

Ah, so I was right,
"Erdal Tekin is an Associate Professor of Economics in the Andrew Young School of Policy Studies at Georgia State University. He is also a Research Associate at the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) and a Research Fellow at the Institute for the Study of Labor (IZA). His primary areas of research are labor economics, health economics, and applied microeconomics. Within these fields, he has worked on projects related to the economics of risky behavior and the economics of child care and welfare program participation. He has conducted extensive research on the determinants of criminal behavior among youths and adults, the effects of child care subsidies and prices on employment and welfare decisions of parents as well as the children's development, the effect of food stamp benefits on labor market outcomes, the link between child maltreatment and future criminality, the effect of mental health problems on labor market outcomes, and the causes and the economic consequences of obesity. His research has been funded by various organizations, including the National Institutes of Health, the Administration for Children and Families, Association for Public Policy Analysis and Management, and the Upjohn Institute for Employment Research"

...I believe the worst outcome for a boy is to inflict him with a single mother during his developmental years, and is guaranteed to "saddle" him with a lifetime of humiliation: Daughters will always gravitate to their Mothers eventually. The adage, like Father like son, and like Mother like daughter, refers to the imperative of gender alignment.

What I find discouraging about this article is that it will either be ignored, or it will be used to try to justify further erosion of the bonds between daughters and fathers in disputed custody matters.

There was a recent decision of the Family Court in an appeal that a father is to have no contact at all with his daughter, now 5, until she is 18. This is not because the father has abused the child, or because he has a mental disorder or substance abuse problem, or because he is an unfir father in any way, but is simply because the mother has said she will obstruct any such contact in any way possible.

Think about that for a second: this child is being kept from a loving father purely because the mother has such hatred for him that she will disobey court orders to the contrary and has already done so several times.

If I was to appear before any Australian Court on any other matter, would I receive a favourable judgement if I indicated to His Honour my intention to wilfully disregard the orders he might make?

For example, if I was a persistent speeding offender, would his honour make my license free of any penalty for speeding, on the grounds that I would simply do it anyway?

Both parents are important to a child's happiness and emotional stability, with children often naturally gravitating to the parent of the same gender as themselves, but learning important lessons about interpersonal relationships by interacting with the other parent. In some cases, of course, the parent of the opposite gender is the most important to the child. Every case is, after all, unique.

Dear Anti,

Bless You - and well said!

What children need is quality people in their environment, and sometimes having no relationship with the biological parents would be best.

*AntiSeptic* when you put up the legal citation for your case and let us read what the judge said then maybe I will be able to take you a bit more seriously.

In my case, the Family Court wisely took away all custodial rights from my biological father when I was about 8 years old as he is indeed a psychologically abusive individual in my experience.

If there is also an environmental basis to my pathology, then my biological father is it.

Regrettably, my biological mother is a half wit who took "advice" from religious muggles and, through the mechanations of Wigus Parasitus, contact was reinstated.

During and after the divorce proceedings, when I refused to believe and testify that my Step Father (who I care about unlike my biological parents) was a faerie, every second weekend in my youth I was subjected to cruel and unusual treatment.

Some of you people, particularly the religious half wits who strut about in a fanciful bubble of bloated moronic belief are a menace, and some of you, especially the HomoPhobes and the Rock Spider Child Abusers and Stealers well deserve capital or corporeal punishment i.m.o.

Oh, I have a couple of very fond memories of my Step Father beating the Sh!t out of my biological father.

mmmm ..

In this case, like Step Father like Son.

..

And now I am also a Step Father who considers it an honour and a privilege to keep a child safe from the horrors of a neglectful biological father or other filth that well meaning or otherwise, would indirectly or otherwise do her harm.

DreamOn,

you write

'Some of you people, particularly the religious half wits who strut about in a fanciful bubble of bloated moronic belief are a menace, and some of you, especially the HomoPhobes and the Rock Spider Child Abusers and Stealers well deserve capital or corporeal punishment i.m.o.'

it shows taking your father away did not take away the bitterness displayed in such a vile rant

Why don't you tell us about the "Benevolent Society" of child stealers *Runner* amongst others?

Child abusers deserve no mercy *Runner* whether they believe that they were doing it for *Jesus* or otherwise i.m.o.

In fact, the ones that say *Jesus* possibly deserve to be flogged more. Amazing, you think to abuse and steal children for *Jesus* and get away with it because it was culturally acceptable to do so.

It was also culturally acceptable to slaughter and rape the Original Australians but in my mind your desire to pardon those involved goes to aid and albeit the original crimes.

..

No, I do not forgive you and intend to do my bit to see the filth that infests the church and guvment brought to justice.

DreamOn:

...One lesson learned from child abuse over time, and by observation, child abuse is a double-edged sword. Be wary! The secondary edge of the same sword stalks the victim into adulthood, with a vicious determination

Dream On, I'm afraid I don't have a "case" to "put up" and I wouldn't if I did, since to do so would be in breach of the non-identification provisions of the Family Law Act and the Child Support Acts.

I'm sorry you resent your father so much and I do hope you can get over whatever it is that drives what is obviously some considerable hatred.

However, if you're interfering between a child and their father, I have nothing but contempt for you. The fact that you had a disturbed upbringing is no reason to inflict the same thing on some other person's child.

Grow up.

In thinking about his question I tried to imagine what it would have been like growing up with either just mum or just dad.

Either choice was unthinkable, as my parents together added their own positives and negatives to the task of raising children. One complemented or counteracted the other.

It is important to acknowledge the importance of both parents in childrens' lives even if those parents are no longer together. However, having one good parent is better than having two parents (biological or otherwise) if the presence of the other means abuse or violence. In this case a single parent is always the better option until the male/female figure can be replaced with a better role model.

Boys benefit from a father figure, ideally the biological father but where that is not possible, an uncle, stepfather, teacher, priest, grandfather or family friend. I also think girls benefit from a father figure and boys from a maternal influence.

Raising children with the cooperation of both parents in the case of marriage breakdown is of course the ideal, but unfortunately all too often human failings and personal resentments may impede this goal. It never ceases to amaze me how feelings of personal revenge override the love and wellbeing of a child and this scenario is not limited to one gender.

*Pelican*

" .. "

Yes, some well considered comments i.m.o. *Peli* though I hope you make room for alternative couples. In one of my darkest hours, it was the plutonic Luv of HomoSexuals and BiSexuals who nurtured me, not my biological parents.

..

*Diver Dan*

" ... Be wary! The secondary edge of the same sword stalks the victim into adulthood, with a vicious determination ... "

Yes thank you *Diver* it is very true. As a child I used to pray that I would never become like my biological father. However, to my horror, I discovered that whilst not in exactly the same way, that I too was afflicted with an abnormal pathology.

However, I have never hurt anyone (or myself for that matter) except at school where I would fight if antagonised.

..

Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 29 November 2011 4:56:16 AM

" ... However, if you're interfering between a child and their father, I have nothing but contempt for you. The fact that you had a disturbed upbringing is no reason to inflict the same thing on some other person's child. ... "

What are you talking about you moron? Do you even know? My wife and step daughter are free and in Love able to leave me anytime. They stay because they want to and we are very happy, even at times of trial. If I were to betray their Luv and trust then again, my wife is free to exercise who right to leave and shut me out. As indeed, I am not legally responsible. However, that which I give is UnConditional, and I will not Yin Yang from Luv to Hate if spurned.

No, some biological parents are filth, and do not deserve any rights. So, by all means you be contemptuous of me. I like that. HaHaHa

I'll tell you what I did to the maggot:

1. My wife divorced the biological father
2. She took sole custody of her child on grounds of abuse and neglect.
3. She created a birth certificate as sole parent post divorce.
4. We moved to Australia.

DreamOn.

…Post-child abuse residual, exhibits as resentment, and is inevitably self-destructive. The “afflicted” need to action self-analysis, to identify any hidden motives during the planning stages of revenge, lest the wrong target be attacked, and “you” become the victim of the double-edged sword of child abuse.

…Once, awhile back, I worked with a Polish Jew (John). John (as the youngest) was picked-out from the line of his family, and forced to witness the shooting death of his family, machine gunned by a German patrol during the German occupation of Poland. He was around ten year old, by his account.

...John was a mental catastrophe: During the days work, we were as careful as possible not to pass-by any location advertising a German theme, such as the “Germania” club, in our local area.
It was incomprehensible to John, how Germans were accepted into Australia after performing such acts of brutality. John was not open to any debate that exempted many Germans who were not party to that brutality at all, and that these were crimes of the “State”; or any other argument which may condescend his total “hatred” of all Germans, and anything German. His hatred was pathological. John did not have a “life”, he was completely consumed by a hatred which he self-justified, but was actually the secondary strike of the double-edged sword of abuse.

…All abuse comes “gift wrapped” in revenge. It is the effect of the “constellating complexes” referred to by Karl Yung. Funny thing the human mind, it demands justice! Read Karl Yung, you will find his theories helpful I am sure. Oh, and I advise you not to “drink”; drinking is not helpful when complexes are unwinding, it is a sure way to end in unexpected trouble. I am not “Dorothy Dix”, but maybe the above will help the focus.

Dream on, it's obvious you're "afflicted with an abnormal pathology". What a shame you've managed to find a victim to inflict it on. That poor child - not a decent adult in her life.

Diver dan, wise words.

DremOn:

...Carl Jung, is the correct spelling ( I am sure you would be aware of the man, but his reputation for practical psychoanalysis is legendry) : Fortunately I am not alone, and amongst the many great men that could not (and cannot) spell. It’s too late now (sniff), the secret art has taken wings into eternity, and I am left in hope that, if I score that “cream” job as scribe for St Peter at the “Golden Gate”, he fits me out with a computer with spellcheck...otherwise...we may allow access to heaven of those who lost control of their "constelating complexes"!

...Google-up Carl Jung, for a selection of live interviews. I particularly relish the “We (humans) are the evil”!

Antiseptic:

I am waffling-on here hoping not to be observed!

...Here is a “case in point” highlighting the illogical nature of English spelling; the verb to “hop”. We can’t be “hoping” along, but we may be hop(p)ing along: What a difference a “P” makes! (ho, ho), a "pee" is very practical, but a "pea" is not.

...Those with spelling difficulties soon learn to identify "Them what is born to rule" amongst us who, in addition, often project themselves as perfect spellers as well, I have noticed!

*Diver Dan*

1. As I am fond to "play hard ball" on more than one issue and in reference to more than one individual I think that it is only fair and reasonable that I subject myself to a high level of scrutiny also. I note further in that regard that my life in more ways than one is subjected to an "on going process of review" and for me now that has been welcomed into 2nd nature.

2. For my detractors also, well may you say something like, " ... Well regarding *DreamOn* - clearly a case of delusions of grandeur & a general lack of refrain. ... "

(Incidentally, that doesn't extend to those matters of patriotism that go beyond the written law)

I concede that there is some truth in that but perhaps at times:

" ... Better the delusions that exalt. ... "
Marcus, Ranger, Babylon5

3. Re:Yung, yes, I studied something of him in my religious youth, and saw more than once the long feature film on his life. I also seem to recall from one forum that *Yung* also had to confron his "inner demons" during bouts of descent into the pit of psychosis, though I know not the truth of it.

4. *Saint Peter* you say .. mmmm .. indeed there are times in my musing that I imagine some of you drawing close to me, in my aspirations to see those about me go beyond the outer garment in outreach to those things that unite us all, as opposed to those things which divide us.

5. Booze? I have never been a drinker, though I do like a bit. 3 beers and I'm baked,4 and I feel sick. Curiously, a favourite scotch on the rocks actually turns off my angry hot spot which is invariably a welcome relief, though seriously, no need for concerns about comorbidity on that one, as my system simply does not tolerate excess alcohol leaving me unable to be an alcoholic even if I wanted to.

*AntiSeptic*

I thought that may get a rise from you. HaHaHa but, clearly, your incoherent and baseless babble appears to be in part because of the grief of loss. At least, I suspect that having previously invested the time in the past to read some of your writings on matters pertaining to parental rights and responsibilities. However, please do feel free to correct me on that one as I concede that I do not know for certain.

Re: The Family Court, I wasn't certain re: your last comments so I ducked over to the Family Court W.A. and sure enough, there are plenty of judgments available for reading, though admittedly they have been stripped of personal particulars.

Why not point us to a case which illicits your point?

..

No, I was very happy with my Step Father thank you very much and it was a mistake to let my biological father back into my life.

..

As for my BeLoved, well, she was a *Child Bride* and then dumped and deserted by an unfaithful and neglectful man. He was off the scene for more than a decade before my arrival. I merely stitched up the formalities of the law as best I could (baring in mind the additional complexities which comes with of a foreign jurisdiction and also without resorting to "Thank You Money" which made the whole process much longer than it could have otherwise have been.)

Actually, she has a very fiery independent Soul i.m.o. and her friends and family were most surprised when she partnered again, as for many years after woulds she had little interest ..

And, for nigh on 8 months or more we lived "Luv in the Dark," as the Indos say and there were many comings and going before all was made clear and I was invited to also participate in the life of my Step Daughter.

I'm glad you got a laugh, Dream On. I thought that the idea of others' misfortunes might tickle your funny bone.
Sociopaths often respond that way.

I am of the view that you will have to do better than that if you expect people to take you seriously *AntiSeptic*

..

Yes, I was going to mention *Hercules* but then didn't. However, it popped up in my mind after a quick BING search landed me on a dictionary site with a Greek Codex graphic on the page.

Then, thinking about you, I am wondering what you did wrong to lose your family, if that is what occurred?

..

No, whilst I am of my own awareness but a flawed and imperfect Human Being, and whilst ever cautious, short of a lobotomy or something similar I will not lose my insight and thus in part of my own making, the *Herculean Curse* to harm ones *BeLuveds* will not be my portion.

Actually, Dream on, my children enjoy a shared care arrangement in which they choose which home they want to be in on any given occasion.

Of course, they don't have a sociopathic "mum's boyfriend" to worry about, so they're quite happy.

DreamOn:

...On the subject of drink; its an interesting one. I believe drinking has a correlation with release of primordial instincts. Instincts will always override personal cognition. Personal cognition equates into social cognition, but it’s the personal cognition I refer to. I believe that “hate” is the most exquisite of human emotions, and is deeply underlying; a primordial instinct of great danger when uncontrolled.

...As in my story of John above, he was “possessed” by an overt hatred. One couldn’t take John anywhere without a problem going with him. (What are friends for)?

...Another feature of hate, is its crudeness, and because of the primordial inheritance, is blind, immature and childish. It shows little care for targets and will just as happily redirect the energy back into itself (the owner).

...Once released or untethered, it must go somewhere; thus the “complex”. So, just as a balloon takes on more and more air until the inevitable rupture, so do the complexes. Drinking is more a personal issue of safety, in this regard, and not entirely a moral issue, as many suppose. Once the fortification of morality around the complex is dissolved though, by the effects of the alcohol, all hell breaks loose in the individual, and what is left is the correlation between crime and alcohol: The two black horses drawing the cart of disaster.

...It becomes important for the individual to acknowledge the complex make-up of the results of child abuse, (or any other abuse, it has all the same markings). It could be likened to living with a chronic disease, and from observation, are generally similarly incurable. The best doctors advice is, don’t drink at all, that’s as “Good” as life gets! Chemical happiness is strictly for the self-deluded.

I think this is correct because I got a boy and a girl. My girl isn't really that defiant but my baby boy is. I went to the principals office twice this week because of misbehavior and disrespecting his teachers. Their school counselor suggested to send him to a military school
[ http://www.militaryschools411.com/ ] because it would greatly help him with his issues and discipline will be reinforced on him. I think boys really need a father figure and girls needs their mother. Because mothers are more loving and caring while fathers are more of the disciplinarian. Agree?

Dear ShayMitch,

I think you can't really make sweeping statements like -
"Mothers are more loving and fathers are disciplinarians,
et cetera." Those statements don't allow for individual
differences. I've known some horrid mothers and loving
fathers and vice versa. As far as your young son is
concerned - I'd get a second opinion and investigate
his school situation more closely - before sending him
anywhere.

There could be a variety of reasons
for his behaviour. It may not be entirely his
fault. I remember when my son got badly beaten
at the private school he was attending and we simply
asked for an explanation from the Principal as to what had
happened. The Principal's attitude was - "How dare we presume
to question the authority of the school?"
We weren't aware that was what we had done.
All we asked for was an explanation -
which as parents, I thought was quite a reasonable
request. Anyway, we ended up removing our son from that
particular school. He ended up thriving at his new
school. And, since then, the private school has acquired a
bad reputation for the amount of bullying and loutish
behaviour - that goes on
there. I wish you success in getting to the bottom of
your child's difficulties. But as I said - look into the
matter a bit further. There's reasons for his behaviour
that you may not be aware of.

Yes *ShayMitch* I think *Lexie* makes a number of valid points, though I would add that it sounds like the particular principal in question was deserving of a beating too.

I mySelf was awarded a place at a prominent private methodist church school based upon my entrance exam scores and suffice to say that I would never send any child under my care to any form of church based school, especially a single sex one, in the absence of other seriously compelling reasons.

*Diver Dan* to suggest that primordial instincts will always over ride personal cognition is in my experience grossly incorrect. For example, my primordial instincts in the past, and verily my personal desire nature, would have led me to savagely assault my biological father, however, I stayed my hand on more than one occasion out of regard for the potential consequences of the law.

Re alcohol, whilst I acknowledge recent medical testimony visa vi the connection between alcohol and cancer, I favor the occasional tipple as part of my stress management routine.

Whilst you appear to have some awareness of psychology, you do not appear to fully appreciate psychiatric principals and I assure you, for my kind, we require substance to engineer so to speak a relatively stable and functional state of consciousness. Without substance (chemically induced happiness) I would suffer on an ongoing and continual basis, the likes of which I had no real conception of in advance of the experience.

And I did suffer, for some 3.5 years or so, until I managed to find my way back to the people and services that could assist in the process of my healing, as no one came to my aid in that regard.

Still, that does not make me a *Sociopath* as *AntiSpetic* would have you believe, and I consider that he may be simply projecting his hatred of his wife's new partner onto me and something of what *Diver Dan* has expressed appears to be relevant in his particular case.

*AntiSeptic* based upon your half witted basesless characterisations, it becomes increasingly clear as to possible underlying reasons for your previous relationship breaking down. You may care to look at yourself for the fault in that regard instead of trying to blame others for your misfortune.

From my point of view, if you Luv someone, then you must allow them to be totally free, which includes them withdrawing their Luv for you and choosing to Luv someone else. If you are unable to do that, then I suggest that you never truly Luved your former partner. Likewise with your children, as they may prefer your wife's new partner, if she has one.

My biological father I suspect does not believe that he has ever done anything wrong, and he retains a great hatred for my Step Father, whom he blames for my biological mother leaving him. For some reason, his drunken, drugged, abusive, neglectful womanising does not seem to figure into his thinking. As a child in my experience, one is inclined to forgive and forget, but as I have matured, more and more that which he inflicted upon us becomes fouler in my mind and now, I simply have nothing to do with him. In fact, unless I am going to visit someone else, I don't think that I will even bother to stop to p!ss on his grave if I live to see that day.

Further, I am not a boyfriend, but rather lawful spouse of nearly 6 years and my Step Daughter calls me Dad. She was too young to remember her biological father, but in time and subject to her mother's approval, she will be informed. I am a strong advocate of transparency and accountability and seek to lift people up with knowledge, not to hide things and take advantage of them as people familiar with me ought be aware, and by co-incidence if nothing else, I too was born under the Aquarian star.

Well DreamOn:

…I remain impressed with your honesty and willingness to discuss a personal (and painful) past. This discussion adequately exposes the irreparable harm of child abuse (whatever form it may take), your own frankness included. Like you say, whatever works for you is the way to go. I am personally not a believer in “debatable benefits” of alcohol: And retain that belief by day to day reinforcement from those trapped in the “Benefit-Fallacy” of self-medication. I believe it to be a nonsense sales gimmick promoted by distributors of alcohol, of which there are way too many in our communities.

…And true to say it is, I do not dwell inside the academic square of thought; and strive to remain a free thinker. To be human gives me the right and privilege to analyse human psychology from my angle. Not many would read my books, but I remain convinced by personal logic, the true way to happiness is to “Know Thineself”

Aaah, now we appear to be seeing more my kind of *Christ Mass* presents:

1. Positive movements towards liberating Gay people from the oppression of 2nd class status and a reinvigoration and renewal of the "Right to Love"

2. My daughter received some great SIEMENS products from the guvna recently, a fact about which she is most thrilled.

3. She also received a specialist teacher who visits once a week.

4. Additional specialist reports to assist both us and the school with advanced tailored teaching recommendations have also been made available.

5. Out of here and off to Indo for 5 - 6 week's rest and recuperation soon and some decent international news from the internationals' perspective.

6. The beginnings of desisting from persecuting minors and some great work in there from Legal Aid W.A. to the members in the following article to others I know not - well done, great work:

http://www.iinet.net.au/customers/news/article.php?section=latest&articleid=3707326

..

Still, I wish to see the bar held high on the guvment as following seeing a bit of Immigration Nation, I was left feeling that despite some positive developments, that we're still a bit behind the ball so to speak.

Simply, there is no reason for us to harm people unnecessarily, be it by neglect or otherwise visa vi Asylum seekers, kids locked up, the mentally ill, BlakFellas, or many others who I should perhaps be aware of but am not.

..

re: this thread, I note further that I had a number of addittional father figures, all of who made a contribution, and also some very capable female figures. Re:Kids, I think its also important to have a good range of "good people" in varying orbits. Some qualities after all transcend gender do they not?

..

I enjoyed something of *Mr Falkner's* speech today at the A.L.P. conference. I am reminded as physically speaking he looks like he came out of a related mould to my Step Father - square features, lots of shaving required ;-)

I hate sweeping statements. I come from a single parent family, and my siblings and I are all fairly high achievers, in long-term relationships and mostly have families of our own. I can also rattle off many names of delinquent boys and girls from dual parent families. IMO it is entirely dependant on the mix of care and discipline that is provided by parents. In my case my husband chooses to have little involvement with our children (despite living in the same house), so I tend to provide both (as did my parent obviously).

I'd like to see some research on whether tendencies to misbehave are more affected by the behaviour of the parents (note that I say behaviour and not genetics). Where a father is completely absent, it has got to be highly likely that either the father is a complete no-good, or the mother is (and hence father wants nothing to do with her). Either situation is likely to have a negative impact on the children, who are likely to emulate the behaviours they observe later in life.