Divergence,

First let me clarify that I do not propose any more rights for unwanted immigrants than the rights of birds (or kangaroos) or to treat them any better. I would not welcome them into the state of Australia, its welfare, infrastructure or education - just into the continent.

Just as I don't let strangers into my home, I wouldn't allow unwanted immigrants into Australian cities and towns - but stopping them from living out in the boundless planes of the outback, grabbing a whole continent to ourselves, is a gross imbalance and injustice.

This is where interests and morality clash, along with the two distinct meanings of the word "good".

What is "good" for our interests is clear - we don't want them. Period.

Yet deep in our hearts we know that it is not good to deny others access to our homes: not just humans - animals too.

Of course it's inconvenient, it hurts to allow others into our space, it may even kill us. We may not even be able to afford it in the sense that we will not survive, but all that is only from the point-of-view of the first meaning of "good", that which serves one's interests.

Now I don't claim to be a saint. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak, so I am susceptible as anybody else to following my interests even at the expense of others. But I do call spade a spade - and weakness a weakness.

SPQR, you can now understand my comments about Israel in this light. I don't consider national-borders as moral, but when it comes to my family I don't care and am willing to suspend morality to save their life. OTOH, I do not support expanding and grabbing other people's land, which I can afford because my family lives happily and comfortably within the 1967 borders.

A reasonable compromise between the two meanings of "good", is to protect the land and resources that we use, but not forcibly hold onto the parts of the continent that we don't actually use - that's piggery.

Belly,
You know and I know that this stupid government should have re-installed the previous programme as soon as it was realised the new softer approach was enticing illegals. It is still not too late, they could open Nauru and not give permanent residence EVER to those who arrive without papers. That means no family reunion and very limited social services.

The only thing stopping this government from doing this is pig headedness and spite. Because the illegals now believe our government is weak, it will take even tougher measures to stop the boats. I would ship those without papers to Nauru and make them wait 10 years for processing with no prospect of any family reunion.

I do not care who stops the illegals from coming as long as they are stopped. To simply give up and open the gates is utter stupidity.

You and I agree that we are being conned by these illegals, taken for a ride. We are held in contempt by them and the cost is enormous.

RObert that is really pretty easy, it just requires 2 simple laws, to go with your temporary protection visas.
The resistance to temporary visas is of course, no family reunion for people on those.

1/- No welfare until any any immigrant, on any visa has accumulated 5 years of tax returns.

2/- No family reunion until 10 years of tax returns.

I saw some figures recently showing over 60% of these people are still on welfare 5 years after arrival, that's the attraction. I doubt the con worker lady is unaware of this, & as we all know, she'll do anything to buy a vote.

Yuytusu,
You say."Just as I don't let strangers into my home, I wouldn't allow unwanted immigrants into Australian cities and towns - but stopping them from living out in the boundless planes of the outback, grabbing a whole continent to ourselves, is a gross imbalance and injustice."

So you are quite happy to let anyone who wants to, come to my place, on the boundless plains, and make me share my home with them. As long as you in the city don't have to share. Why not? Can't I come and camp in your backyard. I'll only use your back verandah when it is wet and maybe inside when cold. I'll just connect to your power and water that you pay for.

Your concepts are simply stupid, Australia IS our home. The same as Israel is Home for the Israelis. Have you no concept of the size of the countries these illegals come from, they have 'boundless space' to share.

Dear Banjo,

First the terminology: why would you call people "illegal" but not birds? Why would you put them in jail if they come and not, say, bears and monkeys (if we had a land-border)? These are people whom you don't want to have, so I simply called them "unwanted immigrants".

No, I am very unhappy to let anyone who wants to enter your place: whatever space you need for your family out there in the outback, you own it, that's yours, nobody is to take it or use it without your permission... But there is still so much more. Now what do you do if your property is infested with dingos for example? then do the same with those unwanted immigrants - it's your property!

The Australian government is obsessed with economics and only thinks of immigration in terms of profit and loss. That's wrong:

When I came to Australia I saw myself as refugee. Though I wouldn't pass any official UN criteria, I was escaping conscription among other things that I will not mention here. Many of our friends were desperate to migrate as well and believed at the time that they would die otherwise, but they were refused. They were "illegal" while I could come because I had the "right" profession etc. and received the maximum points of what the Australian government was interested in. Now who cared about profession or economics then? that was the last thing on my mind, but that was the deal. As far as I was concerned, I needed to find a safe place under my feet in another continent, I was not coming for the welfare, infrastructure, education or anything of the sort. I was quite happy to start my new life on my own, in the outback if necessary or in a rubbish tip. Things turned out differently, more civilized than I expected and I did (and continue to) contribute to Australia much more than it contributes to me, but I am happy, at least I am not in the army - and I never asked Australia for more.

Last post in a thread feeding the view this government is evil.
Sorry to intrude on the ranting.
Truth must be worth some thing.
Gillard Government has been informed by the same legal people as advised Howard/will advise Abbott.
Any attempt to send people to Nehru will be challenged as a result of recent hight court victory and will see it stopped.
To use Nehru we must first rebuild the place, time/dollars then get Abbott's signature on a document that says we are not wasting money.
I know, not think,Abbott knows too,he only has to give the ok and the boats will stop.
I know he will, be forced by his own party out of office soon.
Enjoy the slanders but remember, do please, you have been conned.