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The Forum > General Discussion > Legitimate Self Defence and the Catholic Church

Legitimate Self Defence and the Catholic Church

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TRTL... I doubt Jesus wants us to own handguns, but I think he would be ok with the representatives of the State owning/using them. (Police/Military) refer Romans 13:1-5

Is Mise.. when Jesus said to get a sword, it was (If I remember correctly) specifically to fulfill a prophecy "He (the messiah) was numbered among sinners".. there are a number of such incidents, and the cleansing of the temple was another. "Zeal for thy house will consume me"

Jesus refused Peter the opportunity to vent his spleen on those coming to Arrest Jesus, and healed the man who was wounded by Peters first blow.

Personally, I struggle with exactly how to interpret Jesus words "do not resist one who is evil, but if he strikes you on the left cheek, offer also to him the right" (well I kind of did that at Kickboxing last night, when I allowed a girl to take a few pokes at me in our sparring turn :) she is like 40kg and I'm 105kg) but I don't think that is what our Lord meant.

I am currently of the view that he wants us to avoid conflict at all costs, and even within it, to seek for the well being of our enemy/attacker.

But there is a deeper aspect to the idea of turning the other cheek. It is to point to a spiritual dimension and to underline that we are governed not by our own carnal passions, but by our relationship with God in whom we have supreme confidence that He is the master of our fate.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 7:43:23 AM
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Peter having a go at the servant of the High Priest etc., was to fulfill prophesy "...do you not think that I could pray to the Father and he would send...legions of angels..." however "...But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a sack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one" (Luke 22:36,). is different.
This is not in fulfillment of prophesy but a clear cut instruction.

Were Christ on earth today he would probably tell Peter and the others to buy Israeli 'Desert Eagle' pistols although I suspect that Peter, as a practical man, would get a Colt 1911 Model in .45 ACP.

The Catholic Church's instructions to its own members is clear cut.
Defence of the self and others is a religious obligation even if it becomes necessary to kill when unlawfully attacked, for not to do so is tantamount to suicide and allowing murder.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 10:03:26 AM
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"Were Christ on earth today he would probably tell Peter and the others to buy Israeli 'Desert Eagle' pistols although I suspect that Peter, as a practical man, would get a Colt 1911 Model in .45 ACP"

And they would be promptly rounded up and shipped off to Guantanamo.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:06:06 AM
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For all the faults of a much flawed organisation the Catholic church at least defends the lives of the unborn. These little ones are unable to defend themselves.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:52:52 PM
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Dear Is Mise
lets look at the full version of that quote to gain a context.

...if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

38The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.

Lets break it down.

1/ Get Swords.
2/ For it is written....(he was numbered with the transgressors)
3/ This must be fulfilled in me.
4/ Is reaching it's fulfillment.
5/ A couple of swords were enough to fulfill the prophecy.

A look at Luke 24:44-49 will reveal these words.

44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Not much more I can or need to say.
Cheers
BD
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 24 March 2007 8:42:54 AM
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BD,
That is certainly one way of looking at it.
However there are others, I prefer the one that fits my personal preferences and it goes like this:
According to Catholic and therefore majority Christian theological thought, Jesus as the Second Person of the Trinity was God and therefore knew all things: past, present and to come.

Therefore in His duality as God and man he knew that the Apostles already had two swords, which ,as you rightly point out, were more than enough to fulfill the prophecy.
So it was unnecessary, in this context, to tell those who didn't have a sword to go and buy one and there was no necessity to tell those who didn't have the 'ready' to sell their gear to raise some money.

For those that accept the majority Christian teaching on the Divinity of the Christ, I think that the only interpretation which can be placed upon this part of the episode in the New Testament is that He was telling them to have personal protection..
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 March 2007 2:07:26 PM
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