We see the term used here often.
Threads about controlling almost anything see it used.
I watched a debate on ABC TV this morning.
Only part of it,came in at the middle and had to leave.
A young girl, full of the certainty youth brings, took to government,all of them, for intruding on our freedoms.
I have never in my lifetime, seen our views of politics and those who practice it, so low.
And admit part of it is the fault of POLITICIANS, those who sit on both sides of the fence.
Are we however ready for anarchy?
Is it time to take away the power of politicians to make rules?
Do we remove controls on drugs alcohol smoking? Then do we remove pedestrian crossing and make crossing the road a sport.
Remove speed limits on all roads.
Some of us, yes believe it, need rules and fences just to get from A to B maybe a Nanny State is not needed for some but should tax payers pick up the wreckage.

mate you allways take this thing too far
had you heard the full debate..you would realise
its not about getting rid of all the law...we got
but about limiting the influx of ever more 'law'

im fine for them putting smokers pictures on your booze
and on ya kids lollies..and photoes of diabetus on your pastry..etc

im fine with them taxing your booze
and forcing you to cover your compost bin

just wait mate
soon you all will be criminals
just like i have been made a criminal

then you too can pay tax
can live with horrible names
call you a boozer looser and fattie

im fione mate
make all the laws for yourself you like

just stop trying to tell me im killing you
that im taking your hospital bed

ya think your anti sweat smell
dont stink worse that your garlic breath?

or your mate's perfume
that reeks of cheap stink

or the belch from ya diesal
[or your darn chooks...and kids may drown in ya poond]

your not allowed to cook a meal for your mates
without following the same rules and regulations kfc has to follow

i wish you could have watched the whole thing mate
think of rules to stop your social activities..not mine

god said here i give you EVERY SEED BEARING PLANT
i been to jail 6 times for letting a seed grow

your law..not gods?
god didnt know what he was doing when he gave me the plant?

sure lock up fatties..and drunks..
and crinminals thieves and frauds

but stop trying to moralise away danger
you cant protect fools

if there is an injured party
go to court..no injured party go away

"Is it time to take away the power of politicians to make rules?"

Might be, seems that they have made enough already and need to start reducing the number of them. That does not mean taking it to the extreme but it does mean a decent look at the alternatives.

It would mean a look to ensure that the rules don't do more harm than good. It would mean a look to ensure that the rules don't take one persons freedom away to protect someone else from responsibility for their own choices.

It would mean a look to ensure that the laws don't destroy one persons freedom or rights for the sake of the taste of preferences of others.

R0bert

Yeah !

End poverty NOW !

End evil NOW !

End wars NOW !

End corporate greed NOW !

End government corruption NOW !

Or at least, by next Monday.

Yeah, that should do it. Thank you, young person !

Joe

Belly rather than take away the right to make new laws maybe we could ban them from making a new law unless two existing laws/regulations were rescinded at the same time.

That should stop the rot pretty quickly.

R0bert

Hey! bellies...just take a quote from Chopper reed....and harden the f..k up!...lol

CACTUS

Best quote of all!

"""
if there is an injured party
go to court..no injured party go away
"""

Thankyou, UOG. All that needs to be said :)

A prime example of bureaucratic nanny state is the bit of road Gold Coast side of the Canungra army base.

The road through the little range & for the next 12Km used to be all 100Km/Hour. Occasionally a tourist not looking where he was going, or a local trying to be the next Fangio, doing 140KM/H, would run off the road into the scenery.

Some bureaucrat reduced the speed limit through the little range to 80Km/H. Guess what, just as many tourists or local twits would run off into the scenery just as before.

Another, or perhaps the same bureaucrat reduced the limit through the range to 70Km/H, & the next few kilometers to 90Km/h.

You wont believe it, but they still run off into the scenery, & a local cop told me, that even more do it now, since the change in limits.

This could be because locals are annoyed, & particularly now that the 10 stretches of broken line overtaking places on the whole 12Km trip have now been over painted with double lines.

It must be safer you know, if no one can pass an overloaded turf farm truck, trundling along at 45Km/H. Well it may be if annoyed locals had not decided to ignore all damn fool road rules, & with that, some that aren't so silly as well.

Nanny state, what's that. Probably some inner city living bureaucrat, who probably doesn't drive stuffing up the lives of real people.

Well it depends on what you mean by the Nanny State. There is a case for too much interference by the State including a personal beef of recently installed Point-to-Poing or 'averaging' speed cameras which smacks too much of big brother.

However some right wing extremists view universal health care as 'nanny state'. The long queues of working poor in America unable to afford basic health care would suggest some government services are beneficial for the greater collective good.

It is about defining what should come under the umbrella of government and what can be left to the individual - I would advocate an increase in direct democracy where practicable in this regard. Many opponents of the nanny state seem quite willing to hold their hands out when grants, rebates, stimulus packages or bail outs are offered.

OUG really lets it rip, doesn't he:) That's the Australian spirt..lol...go get'em boy:)

Poor belly, he's like that boxer that wont stay down.

What a champ:)

Hasbeens interesting play with words caught my attention with the slagging of city people once again. Your right Hasbeen, let the country folk run the country......well they couldn't do any worst:)

Iam worried about that strip of road he mentioned:) are we Australians all that thick? or just the idiots that live near there:)

You be the judge:)

CACTUS

Thanks!
Most posts prove we need a nanny state.
Abbott, last night, named poker machine laws as a nanny state issue.
Now NSW the home of them, is a cesspool.
Remember publicans are not clubs.
And rake in millions.
In areas that see gamblers go to the salvation army for food.
Please do not focus on Political Correctness, it is a separate issue.
Sydney has a PC Mayoress,who could turn milk in to concrete,separate issue.
Not too many laws RObert, too many silly ones.
Cactus 2 far too much self confidence! target me, but know, you earn your reputation by your own actions.
I am not trying to change the world in this thread.
But I would like to highlight this.
A total end to protectionism , nanny state? will leave some far behind us all
Are our freedoms worth that?

"Not too many laws RObert, too many silly ones."

Belly I think it's too many laws rather than too many silly ones. Most of them can be justified in some way but the cumulative effect on lives is not taken into account. There is normally a good reason for every new law, every new regulation, every new government intervention. They are there to protect or help someone and generally at a cost to someone.

We need a better balance in how much of that intervention the government does.

I think your attempts to portray this as an all or nothing scenario are a straw man argument, there are not many true anarchists around, wanting some moderation is government excess is not an extreme position.

R0bert

Poker machines are revenue raisers, and people need to be protected against themselves. Speed cameras are to stop the carnage on our roads. You don't have to contribute to any of these devices, but some people can-not help themselves. So we need laws to protect the people against those who think they are above the laws.

579, it must be all the younger people who need protection from yourselves, that & those city people Cactus reckons I sling off at.

50 years ago it was legal to drive at 100 MPH on country roads., & main highways, even dirt back roads, & you know, we didn't kill as many on the roads as we do today.

So I guess it's all down to the education system.

"Speed cameras are to stop the carnage on our roads."

There are a fair number of people with a different view of that and seemingly little evidence that they have made any kind of real reduction in the carnage on the roads.

Unfortunately too many factors are changing to make it clear cut
- cars are being built with a lot more protection in them (air bags, smart braking systems, better padding etc)
- there are more drivers and cars on the road
- better roads in many places
- there seems to be little evidence that minor speeding play's a significant role in road carnage, most of the horror smashes seem to revolve around some combination of massive speed, alcohol, fatigue, trucks etc.

I try to stay under the speed limit and not contribute to the revenue streams of speed camera's but I'm less than convinced that most are there to reduce road carnage.

Some people do have problems controlling their gambling, that does not mean that the particular plans for poker machines will do less harm than good. I don't use poker machines (once in Vegas) and the clubs I get involved in don't have premises or poker machines, generally a non-issue other than another point where to partially protect some others are required to deal submit to yet more government intervention.

R0bert

in re reading my post it might have sounded
like i was attacking mr bell...[belly knows i use you genericly..never specificly]

i guess im more against the revenue raising aspect
where the new law is clearly to get money
or get compliance via threat

for egsample my local council has half a million fine plus a demolition order..[threat]..it used to get an extra 250 dollars from me..[to get another final egsamination..[10 years after the fact]..for a bit of the house i built..

this next lot is the abc putting backon a repeat
[i watched/heard the same words..sometime previously
so program must be a repeat]

that matches the poker machine tax adgenda
[noting toney is saying he 'might' repeal it
after he takes it to lib council policy meeting

[when he does]..that will be taking the 'no'..too far
we got gambling problems...the cure is of course to take away all that extra line form of gambling..[ie simply delete that multiple option that alows 20 'win' options]..that sucks away the line credits

ITS THE REVENUE RAISING
and the beurorockrat's created
plus..these extra INCOME streams these nanny laws raise

[and those who want more 'powers'
over use of extreem statements..[that if they cant get any new ones..we are canceling..all those govts at all levels allready got]

thats just bull

we had alp say..no new laws
without loosing other laws

lol
yeah right
it should be
NO NEW BEUROCRACIES for revenue raising

Well Belly I would definitely remove school zones on major roads and simply demand they be barred off from pedestrians (who shouldn't be there anyway), and I would definitely support Citizen Initiated Referenda taking a higher position in our governance than the actual government (like Switzerland does and clearly to a superior result).
But I would not support anarchism from governance and reduction of laws. We are clearly a society that needs a lot of both.

belly,
Yes we do have a nanny state, but the question is 'Where to draw the line'

The latest thing that will impinge on me is an about to be introduced law for farmers to wear helmets when riding quad bikes. What stupidity! The sun is my biggest enemy and danger when riding. Do they not realise that spending hours crawling along behind a mob of sheep or spot spraying weeds all day in a helmet will cook your head. A straw hat is more appropriate. So a few people get killed(12)a year riding quad bikes, but that is personal responsibility mainly. Like single vehicle road accidents.

One baby gets caught in a cot and regulations are brought in, or cords on a blind. Where does it end? A fool breaks his neck diving into shallow water and sues the council for not having a sign. A kid fell ove Nth Head in Sydney, because parents let him get too close and now the whole area is fenced. A pool has to be safety fenced even if there is a dam or creek nearby. Where does personal and parental responsibility come in? Fools swim outside the flags at all beaches.

A look at the gun laws will demonstrate how stupid the regulations are. I have to show my licence to buy 22 bullets, as if bullets go off outside a gun. I have to 'do a course' to purchasse weed poison at a huge cost and that has to be renewed at times. These are only a few examples! My septic tankl has to be inspected regularly by council, at my cost.

Far too much regulation and not enough common sense applied. The carefull and responsible people are continually penalised for the sake of the stupid and the criminals.

It is getting worse all the time.

A leading American Traffic expert surveyed our transport system [roads, vehicles, infrastructure etc ] his conclusion. we have conflicting road rules because they are not tailored to the 4 rules. The road surface, the weather, the vehicle, the driver. Our speed limits are far too low on all roads. EG: The Bruce highway and Gold-coast highway, AND the new bypass into NSW can suport an OPEN speed limit in some places or at least 140KPH in perfect safety; provided the car is up to scratch [ driver responsibility ]. the driver is up to scratch [ Training before license granting ] the weather is perfect. All these things are mandatory requirments in Europe and the USA. As an example of some authorities totally disregarding their OWN laws; it's federal transport regulation that if there are road work signs erected to slow traffic down, these signs must be covered up or removed if 1. Armco is in place to prevent vehicles intruding into works area by accident 2. There is no evidence of ACTIVE road works on the site [ NO personel present or machinery movement 3. The road does not prevent a danger due to curves, new surface construction or other obsticles in the path of traffic. How many times have you travelled at 60KPH in 100KPH zone when there is absolutly nothing to indicate changes in these conditions but some idiot worker has put up signs because he might be working there next month to dig a hole in a field 30 meters from the road in a field.[ extreme example].
Lastly to prevent this post from turning into a novel. USA average wage is 1/2 ours. Our dollar is near enough to paraty. Packet of PallMall 20 cigs in USA = $4:60, in Ozz = $13:50
Carton PallMall cigs in USA [200] = $40:60
DUTY FREE IN OZZ = $70:00
USA cig is 1/3 longer than Ozz cig
Whose getting ripped off ?
I got a million of'em

Hasbeen stated:
50 years ago it was legal to drive at 100 MPH on country roads., & main highways, even dirt back roads, & you know, we didn't kill as many on the roads as we do today.

This is not so.

Speed Limits:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_Australia
Historically, Australia operated a simple speed limit system of urban and rural default limits, denoted in mph. The urban default, which prior to the 1930s was 30 miles per hour (48 km/h), applied to any "built up area" ...defined by the presence of street lighting. This limit was progressively increased to 35 miles per hour (56 km/h) over the next 30 years by each of the states and territories, with NSW being the last to change in May 1964. Outside of built up areas, a prima facie speed limit applied. In NSW and Victoria, this was 50 miles per hour (80 km/h). In the 1970s, most state prima facie speed limits were gradually replaced by absolute limits.

Road Fatalities:
(1961=50 years ago; 2008 - latest figures in report.)

1961: 8.6 fatalities per 10,000 registered vehicles; 24.1 fatalities per 100,000 population.
2008: 1.0 per 10,000; 6.9 per 100,000.
(Highest ever per reg veh. 1926: 23.1. Highest per 100,000 pop. 1970: 30.4)

http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/49/Files/IS38_RoadDeathsB.pdf?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=1301.0&issue=2005&num=&view=

I have lost 10 friends from car accidents, but only one since 1985.

Thank you, Nanny State!

PS The facts are easy to find. I don't post much because I get tired of inaccurate and repetitious argument.

Before speed cameras vic road toll was 1,040 for the year. Now 240 for the year. It is stupid to say speed cameras don't work. All cars should have black boxes installed, and be read by police officers at will.

RE my last post. In case someone debates and says 'you were younger then and your friends who died were probably in the accident prone teenage demographic', I did a quick calculation: only one was under 24 and she was a 15 yr old school girl in a car with an adult driver. Several were alcohol related (before blood alcohol limits), two were single car accidents in the country (falling asleep?) including the most recent, 2007. One was definitely due to not wearing a safety belt when a car rolled (others in the car wearing belts were unhurt)

Why are cars manufactured to work at speeds far greater than the speed limit (barring specialist vehicles - racing and police pursuits etc.)

Why not manufacture cars with a maximum capability of say (plucking a figure out of thin air) 140km/hr to allow for those situations where speed may help avoid an accident. Someone more expert than myself may suggest a more relevant speed limitation.

But this is only one issue in reference to the nanny state. Speed limits and cameras in accident hot spots do save lives as shown by a reduction in road deaths. Point to point is more dubious because it seems more like revenue raising activity than accident prevention.

No offense my mate OUG you are however biased in the extreme about your tobacco.
Hasbeen, can we talk? you are aware I once worked on the DMR later to be come RTA.
A fellow poster I recently found out worked with me there, he continues to.
He like me saw death carnage tragic events, not as many as me, he did not do late night return to works, call outs.
Good men Police Ambos Rescuers, Firemen and road workers saw far too much.
Never ,not once, was speed not a factor, unless it was a truck driver falling to sleep.
A Nun, remember her well, climbing out of her wrecked car on its roof, looking at the 60 k speed limit and first words? wish I had taken notice.
2 of her Sisters, Convent not far away, Died with the two in the other car they head oned with.
Can you imagine the awful dreadful night? for all those above all of us?
And at another 4 in two cars dead same week.
2 young girls racing brothers in other car dead, brothers watched.
I saw 70 before stopping the count, so it was more.
Wish Hasbeen I could forget .
Nanny state?
Not for wanting to protect some one dieing
I am a petrol head, once I get behind the wheel it becomes my duty to not hurt others my right to speed is restricted to driving only me and only when safe.

Abbott has said that word rescind again. Poker machine reforms will be rolled away. He is making a mockery of himself and his party. No offshore processing, what is he trying to achieve. He will not see another election.

579,
You are only wishfull thinking.

More regulation of pokies will cost this government, if they implement, as it will cost the clubs dearly and members will pay. More nanny state regulations!

As for offshore processing of illegals, I think the Libs will do whatever it takes to stop the boats from coming. Nauru, TPVs, no permanent residence, make them wait 10 years like Africa. Whatever to ensure the illegals get no advantage by coming. It will save lives also.

Only a few support the illegal entries, most people recognise they are con artists, gate crashers who take advantage of our naiveity and goodwill.

Could say I am sorry for this comment, but it would be a lie.
We, well most of us find little wrong with Howard/Labors taking control of Aboriginals spending in the NT.
We conveniently for get this is not a tax,no way is it, and not on clubs or football, very much a minority in the poker machines race.
We over look over night in NSW,at the hands of MY PARTY, Hotel owners, two off them ex Labor Ministers, became millionaires.
Because at the back of every machine you set the house percentage, last time I heard 17% of all intake stayed with machines.
Hotels, some worse than dives, live on the very poor.
Nanny state?
So we tax by assuring idiots get a chance to bet less.
TAX indeed, show me the tax, how much, who gets it, show me why football.
When MORE HOTELS HAVE THEM than football clubs.
Are my figures right? do other clubs out number football clubs 10 to one.
Is truth of value in debate about politics?

"Is truth of value in debate about politics?"

Belly that particular tactic is getting pretty tiring. Truth is of great value, the sort of truth that would have you accept that it's about a lot more than claims of a "pokies tax", for some it's yet another poorly thought out out law unlikely to help problem gamblers and restricting the freedoms of the rest.

R0bert

Yes, damned if they do and damned if they don't...rather a rock and hard place.....mmmmmm I believe the answer is to point out and find the problem gamblers and ban them/no entry ( 6 to 12 months bans depending ). Clubs can have photos of members/non-members and guests, clubs can have cards with micro-chips pinpointing problem gamblers, or if you have a problem gambling problem, you should take Chopper reeds good advice, and harden up:)

If your putting your families cash flow into to poker-machines, go and seek the appropriate help. That's what Ive said to some, trust me....I gave a piece of my mind to one lady, who I watched put $1000 dollars with-in 20 Min's, but it made no difference, on she went to empty all she had........Mind you, she had a small fortune she said, and she wasn't kidding.

Australians are quite well aware of the fact, that they are responsible for what they/you do. I can also dump all my cash into these machines, but I don't.....Its that simple.

( Of course I have a life, but some do not )( lonely people are in our community )

One of the real reason for the machines is, when your in your retirement years, clubs/governments know your sitting on huge amounts of cash and you know the Australian Governments, they look at you from the cradle to the grave.


Have problem gamblers micro chipped like your cat:) as soon as they go anywhere near a machine, it just switches of, and No play for you. Of course this is just a wild thought, however identifying using technologies to high-light people with these problems might be the answer.
Maybe just a evil, we just have to live with.

CACTUS

Never mind people. This is the new age of politics, as pioneered by the honourable Mr Tony Abbott MP.

Laws and reforms only last until the next election, and then all is rescinded!

I wonder, will Labor follow Abbott into this new paradigm? Will Abbott's reforms (after all the rescinding) be pledged in blood to be rescinded by a Labor opposition? Will Abbott even have any reforms, or just continue to rescind (as appears to be his political stance on everything). Will we see the dollar unfloated, a return to the White Australia Policy perhaps? Is this just how we should differentiate the two parties from now on? Labor's slogan is "moving forward", the Coalition's must be "moving backward".

NO! RObert with respect I charge YOU with the crime you charge me with.
A special ability to ignore the truth.
To take a side in an issue,BASED ON POLITICS!
1 Show me, prove to me it is a tax, you can not do so.
2 show me it is aimed at football clubs,they represent 10% of those targeted.
Show me , tell me please, WHY clubs Australia say it WILL NOT WORK.
Yet too, claim it will lead to 40%!? drop in profits, it can not do both.
What, tell me please! do we think this man Wilkie, a man who SHOULD NOT be in Parliament,he ran third but got elected?
Why is he acting like the product of unwed parents? OR IS HE?
Other states may have a problem,NSW has slum Hotels open now! bleeding the true down and outs .
Any attempt to control rich clubs becoming richer on the food dads and mums take from kids.
Any agreement with a Labor policy, get slandered.
And the license! how will that hurt any one? in a place to drink and Gamble even those of us who do not have a problem would have been better for a limit we imposed when not drunk.
I make my claim again stand by it, lies are used to political advantage,and the facts here speak for them selves.
TAX? will/will not work? football? nanny state?
Tony Abbott in power will need to find a closer relationship to truth.

My caps are not a sign of anger, oh I may be at the time, but it is emphasis not anger.
Frustration too, my thread here,yes was to rebut and some times join the anti or pro nanny state discussion.
In the back ground ABCs the drum, bit out there at times, was on, just before?
Laurie Oaks replay of his address to Honor a now dead great reporter.
Christmas!
Some times sleeplessness rewards.
I can not walk away from a fear, first I trust youth,any one under 40 in my view is youth.
And trust them, to rebuild the broken pipe that public comment/news reporting/twisting/making has become.
But as said on the drum, some of us are not up to sorting the wheat from the chaff.
Is our dislike of Julia Gillard/Tony Abbott?, My FEAR total distrust for Bob Brown,TAINTING our every view.
Are we subservient to the party of our choice?
Do we, any of us,actually let our side do the thinking for us.
I think very few, some but few.
Our problem is we FAIL totally, to think at all about some issues.
Wilkie is no mate of mine, in my view no Friend to any of us.
But his bill is worth at least honest debate.
Tell me, without him,who from what mainstream party,would have put it up.
Mainstream politicians are Spineless.
Are we brave enought to look at this issue?

Belly I'm assuming that you not are being deliberately dishonest here but just so emotive about the issue that you are not actually reading what others are writing.

I'm not defending the tax claims, they are spin. I am taking a stand against more of government intervention in the lives of those who can otherwise control themselves for the sake of those who chose not to do so.

You don't do yourself any credit when you take that approach. You are so bound up in the politics that you are missing some fundamentals. I really could not give a rats for the politics of this other than the part where it's yet another place where government regulates the majority for the sake of a minority who won't regulate themselves.

R0bert

Robert said: I am taking a stand against more of government intervention in the lives of those who can otherwise control themselves for the sake of those who chose not to do so.

WRT the poker machine proposal, as far as I can see, it won't affect those who can control themselves at all. If you can control yourself by either not playing, or by limiting how much you spend, no probs, you're not affected at all. But it will help problem gamblers to set limits before they are 'under the influence' of the flashing lights etc.

I am astonished by the clubs' campaign. Effectively they are saying, we depend on problem gamblers for our income. They are using a blackmail line: if problem gamblers are limited in their spending, footie teams, community groups will collapse. They may as well say, unless we can serve alcohol to totally intoxicated people then we'll go broke (well, maybe they are saying this, with the demand to keep nightclubs open all night). They may as well say, we want to sell heroin, it would make a good return to support the local footie team, why should the government intervene because some people can't control themselves and get addicted?

Logically, Robert should support the legalisation of marijuana, heroin and all drugs. The laws against these intervene in the lives of those that can control themselves.

Belly,
I agree with Robert. I know you feel strongly about this issue and i know of the family situations of many problem gamblers. However it is another nanny state regulation.

Worse still, there is no garrantee it will work and there are no details. Gamblers are canny and will find ways around it. How will a person be assessed as a problem gambler and by whom? Personal details will be required. If a linit is reached why can he not go to another pub/club and continue? Will all pubs/clubs and pokies be connected via internet and who will run the website? This will mean EVERY person will have to be registered, and identified, to even put a coin in as they pass the machine. Even I can see great holes in the implementation of the proposal and I am not as cunning as some gamblers.

Am told the cost of conversion of machines will be high and clubs/pubs will have to recoup that cost. This means an increase in all prices or less return to punters from the machines.

Pub and club patrons will not be happy at all about this and will vote accordingly against those to blame for inflicting this on them. The political cost will be high, not a good move by government.

But, what the hell, the present government is gone anyway. what are the odds?

govt bailing out capitalists

govt lending at intrerst [ursury]..from bankers
to lol bailout bankers..[mate thats a nanny state]

they get bailout
we get their debt[then pay intrest on it

lol
then give it all to the bankers
then bailout the bankers and start again
but lets take thast here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4798&page=0

seems the 'stock exchange is having a 'teqnical glich'

lol

the virtual economy meltdown?

they only trade in promises for share
not actual shares

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1285/006/Banks_Have_Put_Americans_On_The_Hook_For_Trillions:_Restore_Glass-Steagall.html
http://vidrebel.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/a-fractional-reserve-gold-standard-the-next-big-fraud/

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship
with the unfruitful works of darkness,..but rather reprove them.
http://dailybail.com/home/video-fist-fight-in-italian-parliament-as-dysfunctional-gove.html

http://www.truth-out.org/occupy-wall-streets-battle-against-american-style-authoritarianism/1319570241

12/for it is a shame..to even speak of those things..done in secret..

http://theintelhub.com/2011/10/26/feds-order-you-tube-to-remove-video-for-containing-%E2%80%9Cgovernment-criticism%E2%80%9D/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-20125720/mexican-drug-suspect-u.s-gave-me-immunity/
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=16455
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/ARCHIVE/CRIMES_OF_MENA.html
http://dailybail.com/home/disgraced-hedge-fund-manager-john-paulson-sends-bankster-shi.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM23k_LXWlc&feature=player_embedded
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/10/wall-street-banks-getting-nsa-intel-on-foreign-hackers/1?csp=34news&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UsatodaycomNation-TopStories+%28News+-+Nation+-+Top+Stories%29

13/but all things that are reproved..are made manifest..by the light..
for what ever doth..*manifest..is of the light
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/10/hillary-clinton-knew-of-qaddafi-white.html

ie
only the real economy egsists
http://news.antiwar.com/2011/10/25/billions-lost-in-secret-federal-reserve-funding-of-iraq-war/

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/european-debt-crisis-creditors-are.html
http://dailybail.com/home/behind-europes-debt-crisis-lurks-another-giant-bailout-of-wa.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/owss-beef-wall-street-isnt-winning-its-cheating-20111025?link=mostpopular2

bankers stealing houses
rebuked
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27282
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkUKW8NtJdE

whats the real issue
http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/152811/the_shocking%2C_graphic_data_that_shows_exactly_what_motivates_the_occupy_movement_/
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/slavevtaxpayer.jpg

heck get your own info
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

Cossomby, Banjo has covered many of the key practical issues.
For it to be of use it has to limit require some kind of registration, proof of identity etc by all users.
From the clubs perspective there is an assumption that a lot of casual users won't bother.
It's not going to cover all means of actual gambling so there are plenty of alternatives available for problem gamblers when the urge takes them and they've reached a limit on the pokies.

I would support changes to laws around use of substances by adults to take most of the underworld aspects out of the transaction as well as reduce the risks associated with contaminated products. I'm quite in favor of heavy penalties for bad choices involving the use of substances (if you drive under the influence you put the lives of others at risk).

Prohibition rarely works, it's a tool for creating opportunities for criminals and fosters an environment of lack of personal responsibility for choices.

R0bert

Labor is showing how to lead, I would-not take any notice of abbotts ramblings. He wants us all to go to church and live in the 50's. I do-not know how he is going to justify his denyalism with a straight face.
Naru, and turn the boats back, is a mineshaft. Before any of us know what this consists of, it is condemned by a person that thinks he is god. Labor must push forward with reforms.

Labor must push forward with reforms.
579,
why wait 4 years to do that ?

Malaysia is still being negotiated around the world.

579,

If Malaysia, then why not Nauru ? Its government has signed the necessary conventions.

Of course, on-shore processing is preferable, and release into the general community of all of those refugees whose claims have been found to be legitimate, if only to avoid situations like that of the poor guy who just took his own life in Villawood.

But with forty million refugees around the world, and perhaps (?) a hundred thousand who have applied on all the right forms to come to Australia while the annual intake is (?) 14,000, it's clear that there is a queue, of at least seven years at current processing rates. It's a hell of a problem for whichever party forms government.

Joe

What do you do when naru is full. Turn back sinking boats. Good idea, but not moral.
When Malasia does the processing they will stand in line as was meant to be.

RObert, Banjo I respect you both, but AGAIN charge you both with a special blindness here.
I [show me yours] have started thread after thread CONDEMNING THE ACTIONS OF MY PARTY]
In this thread, mention two MAGGOTS from with in NSW Labor! and my faction of it!
Who helped put the crimson things in Pubs, some they own.
Have you dropped in to one? once nice clean after work pub?
Now brothels! you can buy a big screen or sex a list will be taken and you can pick it up after.
Seen the widows, alone and desperate, putting note after note in.
Been out with the boys, like me, got drink and put a thousand in you never would have?
GEE! sorry!so awful having to say up front I want to spend 20 bucks.
How dare they!
We go to pubs to get full and be milked, or do we.
Be fair dinkum fellas, how the crimson hell can you not see I am not defending a party but FIERCELY defending idiots children,it is them who suffer.
I shudder true, that you seem to buy the cow dung its a tax its going to work/ then not and its government intervention for the sake of anything other than concern about some thing that in truth should have remained in Casinos.

Sorry Loudmouth, onshore processing does not lead to releasing into the community of those who's claims have been found to be legitimate, it leads to letting into the community, & subsidising to the tune of half a million each in housing & welfare, of all those who's claims could not be proven to be illegitimate.

This is quite a different thing.

A simple law that deports all who can not prove the legitimacy of their identity & claim would take all the heat out of the argument, & reduce to a minor trickle the flow of boats carrying illegals hiding in the system.

And i suppose the liberal lot would be all for it too.

579,

Here's a crazy idea:

* Nauru

* First eight hundred to arrive by boat go to Nauru, and to the back of the seven-year queue

* Australia takes four thousand Burmese refugees, fully processed, from Malaysia

* Boats stop. We take more refugees than arrive by boat. Nauruans are happy, Malaysians are happy, Burmese refugees are happy. People-smugglers are not happy. Greens are not happy.

Sounds a fair deal all-round :)

Joe

You would have to put it through the court, Australia has already taken charge of these people. Why not get them to drive their boats to Naru, that way we wouldn't have to worry about them. It would be Naru's problem.

Belly,
I have never offered any opinion about whether I support wilkies proposal on pokies or not. But the person who claimed it was a 'footy tax' was wrong. It is not a tax but it is a cost that will effect the club/pub patrons and I can see many problems in its implementation and have doubts if it will work.

What I have given is what I see as the political reality of trying to bring it in. Few votes for the government and many against,

If you are upset about the tax claim, well steel yourself as I think you will have far worse to contend with. There are powerfull interests opposing and a lot of club members who will also vote against it.

If I were the government I would be talking hard to Wilkie, trying to get him to soften his stance.

Banjo, fair dinkum I have conceded the next election.
Labor has too, it refuses to confront Gillard could not win a raffle.
Now it must be some deal, done but not told about, we know some, maybe greens, say they go if Gillard does.
Wilkie will not change.
Judge me not on my Labor party membership.
Think with me, why these lies
1 Its a TAX
2 It is Labors idea
3 It will not stop the problem/gamblers?
It will reduce clubs in take by 40% what of those two is the lie?
Football tax yet 90% are not in football clubs

Stay with me.
I have always known the cheaper beer fine facility's ARE IN PART paid for by addicts.
And believe totally some are only addicted to poker machines.
NSW sold our poor, to hotels for election contributions ,MOSTLY TO MY PARTY.
And cash rewards went to maggots in my party.
Why did we let machines[ numbers once tightly controlled] in to pubs.
Is it ok to build palaces called clubs,see Panthers NSW wide, pack them full of machines, and not bar some known to have problems.
History will stare back at us today, and see we play the party not the problem.
One day, IF BRAVE ENOUGH! some party will confront a social evil poker machines, it may well be conservatives.
Public interest not politicized should lead.
Loudmouth, Joe, you are on to some thing.
Gillard should TOMORROW! test the high court ruling,send boats to Nehru, if they are stopped by that court both party's must behave like adults .

While we are, all of us political in our comments if the thread continues can we return to its intended path.
Nanny states yes political in practice but should any form of government defend /not defend us from our selves.
Smoking/drinking Drugs/ we see detractors of measures to control or limit.
How do we feel about laws to stop under age drinking.
Driving too fast/too young.
And do we want all restrictions on drug use removed, kids too?
Society in my view builds fences to protect the many, some times from the few.
No fence , no safety net , I firmly would rather some freedom go than some damage to our ability to live together.

I wonder if anyone has pointed out to our PM & her assembly of inadequate individuals that the word is reform not deform ?

Belly you are still building straw man arguments.

As I said earlier in the thread there are very few true anarchists around, most who have concerns about excessive intrusion of government into peoples lives accept that government has a place.

You don't help the thread by arguing that it's all or nothing nor by assuming that those with opposing views have the same attachment to the liberal party that you have to labor nor by assuming that we support every claim made by the clubs.

There's an email going around falsy attributed to Bill Cosby. Called I'm tired it's as far as I can tell based on this blog http://tartanmarine.blogspot.com/2009/02/robert.html

Some parts don't resonate for me, still thinking about other parts but it's an interesting read in terms of PC issues which travel with the nanny state.

I'm well and truly tired of some of those things as well. I'm really tired of governments which take from me to give to those who could won't work for it themselves. Of governments who limit my freedoms and choices because others who could take responsibility for their own choices are told that they don't need to do so.

I'm tired of a mentality that says that if the fence was not good enough to stop you climbing it it's the fault of the fence builder not your fault for ignoring the obvious risk right in front of you.

If the path is dangerous to walk on a hand rail is a good thing, if the view is stunning it does not need a 10ft barbed wire topped fence because some people might try and stand right on the edge without it or climb a lesser fence.

R0bert

Robert:

...I hope this will allay your fears of Government encroachment into OH&S issues, to know that in my area is a beautiful view from atop a 100 foot cliff, and totally unfenced, with a well maintained path sponsored by the local council. A great place to commit suicide (many try), where a helicopter may land in complete safety to pick up the remains of idiots that fell or jumped! Just like the old days

RObert we drift apart here.
The link is simplistic and has been around in one form or another for 50 years.
We should not believe everything we read, EG the baseless child like one liner not related to the subject of INDIVIDUAL, it, sadly is the best he/she can do.
You seem intent on talking lately about other issues, Senator Hansen Young thread,I left rather than feed a troll, WAS NOT ME DEFENDING LABOR.
This is not our system of social security, taxes.
My intention was one single thought.
Is making rules, any rule,reducing some freedoms to protect some nanny state at work.
Is personal freedom a reason to over ride common sense .
Drugs, IF police/politicians/rich business men stopped profiting from them we could wipe them out.
About minimum 2500 lives a year need not be lost.
Thousands destroyed.
Was the idea of taxing the drinks the Young abuse a good/bad one.
Is it our right to say we must try to stop them killing them selves,straw men?
Have we the right/duty to save some from them selves.
Social welfare is a different issue.
I am sad that any spotlight on change or reform is darkened by the views political ones,of some.
History will require answers to how we got so lost in this time that bad leadership poor media,stopped open debate .

Hi Belly,

You ask: "Is personal freedom a reason to over ride common sense ?"

Well, yes, surely up to a point. Should kids be able to play on see-saws and swings and slippery dips, at the risk of getting hurt ? Of course. Is there anything whatsoever that kids enjoy doing which is not, in some way, a bit risky ? Climbing trees ? Jumping off jetties ? Playing on a lawn near where bees might lurk ? Cracking their skulls on skateboard ramps ? You can kill someone with a sharp pencil, you know.

Public authorities want to reduce risk, mainly the risk to themselves of having to either pay exhorbitant insurance fees or compensate people (parents) whose kids might get hurt. So why not just put a sign up, saying "This equipment [or whatever] poses some danger to small children. Parents are advised that users use this equipment [ ] at their own risk."

When I was a kid in Bankstown, we used to chase slow-moving lorries and hang off the backs. Our knees were always skinned and some of us lost teeth. State school kids and Catholic kids used to pelt each other with rocks. Not much common sense there but great fun !

I guess it's called 'life'. Maybe people should grow a pair.

Joe

Safety signage are there as a guide, it doesn't stop litigation. The only way is for whatever is causing the concern, not to be there. People will not take fault for anything, society has bought it on it self.

Loudmouth Joe, I agree every word.
It is not my intention to reward the silly or to put silly laws in place.
I have seen those words nanny state, rolled up and hurled as a weapon against drug control Grog campaigns late night closing ext.
A part of our way of life is Socialism.
We need to see the part of Education/Health/Public transport that is free or subsidized is so.
Infrastructure and such is in part paid for, like EVERY *FREE*
thing via tax by some one, I respect but disagree with RObert.
And fact is I have started several threads here in my history asking for welfare reform.
I am a true trade unionist,and believe in change and constant improvement, while proud of the past it is the future the movement must concentrate on.
Social welfare government enterprises are bleeding cash.
We can/must do better, excellence in management is the only future.
Not bleeding public jobs top sometimes criminals for more money.
But RObert that is another thread.
A community must have rules or we will have no community .

society has bought it on it self.
579,
hold your horses right there. Not society as a whole. It's the academic left-winged section only in society that's the cause of the whole stupidity.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/nannys-wisdom-has-paid-off-before-20111028-1mo27.html
The link is informative.
And any one who is interested in the issue will be informed by reading it.
I truly think its description of poker machines UNDERSTATES the impacts on some.
Not all not every venue,but at the lower end, trashy pubs, small clubs,little concern is shown for the victims.
I wish I knew how to find the figures of those who killed them selves, as a result of these evil machines.
And too how many victims would never Gamble on other things, are addicted to the lights bells and wheels.
[long trip to market has me up early, ]

Finally, after some 40 years the social engineering failures are really starting to bite us in the butt. We're waffling on about a lack of self-discipline yet when we apply discipline we get dragged over the hot coals. Those academic "experts" who forced their idiotic ideas onto us over the years are keeping stumm now that it's all falling into a heap. Sad thing is mums & dads will still be persecuted for slapping little Jonny when he doesn't get what he wants. And so the wheel of decline goes on turning & the academic do-gooders are greasing the bearings & neglecting the brakes.

the nanny state..is about govt bailing out bankers
govt picking winners..[like that half trillion iusa gifted to the solaris tube scam..like getting free solar cells on ya roof..like govt supporting german industry..to build wind turbones]

the nanny state is what im addressing at
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4798&page=0

and if you aint read it catch up
it could stop you from going broke

to quote and expand
the gist is this

""but thats small comfort..as all that cash
seeks a place..to hold its 'value'

well here is the clue..

cash notes are a share..!
proof of debt owed by the bank

IN COIN..!""

the constitutionally.."ONLY Legal tender''
that is the base for governance

[read the con-situation]
constitution chapter v
115

read it and think


""bank notes are bank bills
we all know what a bill is [right]?

they are a claim on our banking system's base
[on the fed what issued them]..

[ie a promise to pay 'in gold or silver'
or value]..[..''in payment of debts'']

just like coins are..
only cash..is a voting share
due on the fed reserve..

till the fed tries to dilute the vote

untill the fed goes.for money-tory..'quantitive easing'
and tries to give everyone holding cash,..
their fair share of the spoils

HARVEST*

reaped on the fed fraud
[ie everything..that money bought]

but even then..a fool and his money..are soon partied

bring back the coin-age
or face globbal..[no place to hide]
tell-i-phony rage..

and re the other solution
[web 3]

[please note disappearing the web...
will only see the crime of not having the origonal books]
in-itself clear proof of a dear fraud]

and re the plan to make us sick
gods not going to let that happern again

in the end..a debt is a bet
and ursury a bigger crime than fail-lure to repay..[in full]

so credit where credit is jew
if you paid more than was due

anyhow ridicules..
plenty to ridicule there ol pal

common guys

dare to complain for someone
the please explain

Belly,
As I said in the first post, the Question is 'Where do you draw the linw'?

Where you would draw the line and where I would could be well apart.

For example, I don't particularly care if some idiot breaks his neck riding a bull or surfs in 20 mtr waves. I have seen young blokes jump into the blow hole at Kiama. Timing is everything appartently. How do you stop idiots from surfing on tops of trains or cars. Natural selection takes care of some.

Individual said about self disipline, and my parents taught me that as well as to look after my money. So the pokies have never interested me. Can't remember the last time I put a few bob in, but am happy enough to partake in club facilities.

You can't wrap kids up in cotton wool, there is a risk in most everything we do. Most of us assess the risk and if the odds are not good we walk away.

So where do you draw the line? If an older driver has a bad accident, the call goes out for all over x age to be denied, but ignore the young and reckless and young binge drinkers.

Maybe teaching self disipline early is the best way?

it's those kids who were wrapped in cotton wool in the past 40 years who have become the incompetent morons making our lives a misery today.
For cryin' out loud isn't there any sense left out there ? The kids who robbed me are running around taunting me & I'm expected to forgive them. I'll think of some forgiveness when the moron judges who were appointed by moron Govt voted in by two morons make their parents pay me back

You will get nowhere calling those that make and execute the law morons.
Laws are there to protect the guilty from over persecution, as in your case you would settle for no less than a lynching. Robbers have been around since time began, and all any of us can do is be vigilant, and wear heavy boots.

579,
I don't subscribe to pussy-footing on the grounds that it gets us to exactly where we are at now.

579,
You are a bigger moron that those Individual spoke of.

People have rights but also should have responsibilities. If some kids robbed him then the parents have a responsibility to pay him back, as they are responsibile for the kids. If my kids broke a neighbours window, i would pay for the repairs, thats fair.

Belly,
Here is a good example of nanny state.

You recall the young sailor, Jessica Watson! There was a lot of controversy about her attempting a round the world solo voyage. Basicly because of her age. Some were even advocating court action to stop her and her parents were labeled as irresponsibile.

I had my doubts to begin with, but I read all I could about her and her attempt and ended up supporting her and following her voyage with interest. My reading revealed the enormous training and preparation that was being done. Her boat was a proven vessel and was strengthened to make it safer. Her own training was extensive, including sea survival. Her ocean sailing experience was good and she had skippered a yacht to NZ and return. Years of planning went into it. It was obvious to me this was not some whim by a bored little rich girl, but someone dedicated in achieving a goal.

The rest is history. But there were still risks, and big ones.

Did you think she should have been stopped from going at the time and what are your thoughts now.

I am glad I did the research and changed my mind.

There was a risk, and it was all hers. There was little chance of fault as it was international water. She carried the total blame, internal safety is a different bucket of worms.

As a farther of daughters, I hate the idea of Oz becoming a Muslim ruled country, but I believe it will become so. They are going to out breed & out con us because of our bleeding hearts.

At least it would have the result of putting thinking, like 579s, in the box with all the stupid bleeding heart garbage, & back in the rubbish bin of history. The "underprivileged they love will not return the compliment once they hold the strength.

Criminality is a state of mind. All the psychiatrists on earth never managed to reform even one. All that happens is that they go from bashing the innocent for a few bucks, to robbing them of thousands by identity theft & such smart crime.

As long as we have idiots bleeding for them, they will multiply.

Have you ever thought about the motive of these crim lovers. It always seems to me that they are the ones who have criminal tendencies themselves, just not the guts to try it, so feel a deep affinity with them

Lots of pretty restaurants have filthy kitchens, & lots of bleeding hearts have very dark minds.

Banjo, how? tell me? was that about a nanny state.
No action took place from state local or federal government.
No new law no compulsion.
Now had she died? come if she died governments, all of them, would be convicted for?
Not stopping her.
I feared for her, did not want to stop her did not want her to go.
Individual in this case,and many others, is not deserving of your support.
He claimed all born in the last 40 years are trouble making morons.
He is fixed on what I see as nearly a Hitler youth movement!
Compulsory training to straighten youth up!
RUBBISH!
I ask that every post from my last be re read, that an honest look at just what some claim is nanny state.
Half wits surfing car or train roofs, the foolish person grabbing an over head wire, and being electrocuted in todays press.
All should have if possible been stopped, not for them but those they may have killed.
Darwin awards to all and ten years in Individuals concentration camp for any one younger than him!

belly/quote..""Banjo, how..was that about a nanny state.""

apparently mr bell..now
no kids can do it under a certain age
[they diont care how much experioence or parental support
by law..[or by consensus agreement..BECAUSE OF AGE..no more can go

hopefully others will provide the proof

""No action..state local or federal government.
No new law no compulsion.""

mate try it
if your under a certain age its no go
and thats that..!

""Now had she died?""

we are spirits having a life experience
the life may stop but experiences continue[in the spirit realm]

""if she died governments, all of them,
would be convicted for?""

nothing
they might try to convict 'pair-rents'

for.."Not stopping her.""

""Individual..claimed all born
in the last 40 years are trouble making morons."'

he was generalising...of course there are good and bad
just like in every race generation/sex/govt police union party

""He is fixed on what I see as nearly a Hitler youth movement!"'

mate that was like the boyscouts
till that one nany step too far

[heck ol son..hitler was a greenie..!]
time magazine made him[person of the year
till hge went all nanny state on his people

""Compulsory training to straighten youth up!
RUBBISH!""

nio mate..kids should be stuck in school
til they can fill in the paperwork themselves[to leave]
kleaving only after they done all the other 'paperwork'..[like licences..job aplication..learnt to read write..listen and speak up

""All should have if possible been stopped,"'

yeah unions are a huge problem
ohh well..maybe next time ol nany toney..will 'stop them'

MATE WHO IS JUDGING..who?
should tony judge?

should wikie..or browneye?

STOPTHEM..""not for them
but those they may have killed.""

yeah george bush and dick cheeky
stop em...[with what dear belly?]

with a bullit dear henry dear henry dear henry
with a bullit dear henry..a bullit dear henry

next who can we stop dear belly dear belly dearbelly?
next who do we stop dear belly dear mr bell?

""Darwin awards to all and ten years
in Individuals concentration camp
for any one younger than him!"'

yeah but i so hate unions and political parties and lawyers and greenies and commies..[lawyers/bankers/bloggers..

[give a dog a bad name..
we judge the dog..by the worst dog]

under one god,
you mention old Adi being a greenie. I wonder which one of the world's influential leaders in the past century deserves to be credited with the most foresight in hindsight of course. Which one was closest to the mark in predicting today's dilemma ?

OUG I have no evidence any government has passed such a law here, link please.
I do think we ask governments to both agree and disagree with us,, then blame them if we fall over.
As most states are, or soon will be, Conservative are/will they be, nanny states?
I tended not to blame God in my days beleiving as you do.
And do not credit any of the great numbers of them we have now.
This much is true, that girl had as many not wanting her to go, as supporting her.
In hindsight she knew best.
Those fearful before she left, not wanting her to go, was that a crime?
We are, as usual, bogged, in a mud that seems to want our views first and no chance we may well be wrong.
In my view nanny state is erring 0n the side of caution.

Belly,
Hope you had a good day at the markets, my wife buys most veges, etc there, all locally grown.

I was refering to what Individual said in last post, page 10. Its about self disipline.

In relation to Jessica Watson, there were many who were advocating that Qld gov take court action to prevent her going. That is nanny state thinking. The gov did not, but the Premier strongly opposed her going, but lined up to welcome her home.

I would like to know how you felt about it. Do you know that the young Dutch girl, sailing RTW was in Darwin recently and has left to head west across the Indian Ocean, the most dangerous part of her journey. Not the same as Jessica though, this girl has stop overs and so on while Jess did it not stop.

As I said where do you, or we, draw the line?

What gets me with such cases is that in the end we, the taxpayers again & again fork out for rescues costing quite a lot. Just go back to the billionaire yachtsman who had an australian Navy vessel sent to the southern ocean to rescue him after having been rescued previously by australian taxpayer funded organisations. He then apparently wanted to make a movie about the rescue & cash in on it. Australia is obliged by international maritime law to assist at sea. No problem there from me thus far. However, try going down the road & slip & break your ankle.. Call the Ambulance & if you're not a subscriber you pay several hundred Dollars for a ride in the Ambulance. Now think back to the billionaire adventurer who's rescue cost millions & yet he didn't have to pay & he wasn't even Australian. Had Jessica required rescue how many of her supporters would have volunteered to pay ? Who paid for her to be brought in after her first night at sea & how much ? I'm sure a family in need is more deserving of assistance than adventurers who don't seem to be short of a Dollar but does the family get help ? Let's prioritise please.

Welcome to Australia, the land of unobtanium with a severe case of banatitis!

Individual,
You are right that Australia has obligations covering a vast area of the oceans surrounding us, including the vast Southern ocean.

First a quick correction. After the bulk carrier ran her down, Jessica made her own way to port. The Water police attended and helped her ready the boat and escorted her in.

Jessica also had 'rescue insurance' for her RTW voyage. But after, when she visited Canberra she called at the Rescue HQ to see their operations set up and thank them for keeping an eye out for her.

The US girl Abby Sutherland was demasted almost halfway across the Indian ocean. Our marintine rescue organised an Airbus and located her. I think an RAAF Orion attended next day when she was picked up by a French fishing vessel which took he to Madagascar.

Sure we bear the cost of all the aircraft in this, but I view it as a training exercise as next time it may well be a large passenger liner in trouble when hundreds need to be rescued. The more we do the better we get at it.

However, this thread is about nanny state and I do not wish to deviate from that.

Banjo, had a good morning thanks.
Never would have thought it would have replaced my punters hat.
But its been 12 months from my last bet.
Buying not selling and not intending to, I am working on my garden.
6 new day Lilly's and 8 Irises to brighten up a corner.
Off to another soon.

Now, let me clearly say this some laws some acts need fighting, I will fight and appose them.
But look, lets think about Individuals concerns.
This country is party to international sea law, is money a reason to dump that?
I use the following to show a thought pattern not insult believers.
Christianity has rules, take the ten commandments.
I think they prove the brilliance of mankind's mind.
laws to live by.
IN the interests of keeping the load on the truck, keeping our ability to live together a live.
Aborigines had laws too, based on the same rules, rules even about intermarriage.
American Indians did.
RULES why do others think we make them.

I wasn't objecting to rescuing people. I thought that came through clear enough.
I'm querying the fact that a millionaire adventurer gets help to the tune of a million or more but a normal citizen has to fork out for a ride in an Ambulance if not a subscriber. it's a matter of constant imbalance not a wish to deny anyone. Why do I fork out thousands to send my kid to school whilst others literally get it all free because they're deemed different somehow even though they have better paid jobs than I. Why does one non-indigenous kid's parents have to pay for a school excursion whilst the other 50 indigenous kids don't ? Why does a non-indigenous husband/father have to pay school fees yet an indigenous one doesn't ? Why do genuine applicants to come to Australia get put through the grinder whilst the illegals get literally pampered. Aren't Australians running Australia anymore ?

Australians never ran this country.
Border control, policy of both sides.
Is a secondary to both leaders, both are failures.
Gillard should go to Nehru, Abbott should bend.
Air Sea rescue costs, no civilized country thinks cash first.
nanny state example.
Great trees in Newcastle City, in real danger of falling.
Council wants to remove them and replant.
Such trees can weight big time, and do kill on falling and fall often.
Both sides of the debate defame the other trees still stand if one falls on a school bus?
Council will, what ever the out come, be blamed.
Nanny state or doing its duty?

If we all worked towards EVERYONE having a very good Education ,with everyone knowing what makes the planet and ourselves tick I think the Nanny State would not be required .
For some People help is required to get them up to speed - to deny the poor ,uneducated, a chance to do as well as us is simply evil and destructive of that group's future - Tony Abbott and his well heeled snooters seem to hate giving the dissadvantaged a helping hand .
I think it ads to their insecurity - the sooner wealth is spread about in a fairer way the better .

Belly, I hope you are breeding your own daylily new colours. It is easy.

I have trouble with native bees pinching all the pollen at first light, so have to bag what looks like tomorrows bloom to get any.

Just dab a bit of pollen on the other flowers, & most set seeds. Put the seeds in the fridge for about 6 weeks to "finish" them, & plant.

Each seed pod will have a dozen or more seeds, & each seed will produce a plant with a different coloured bloom.

Only one in a hundred will be a bit special, but those few make it really interesting.

Back on topic, Jim, we may have an education system dumbing down continually, making the production of engineers rather hard, but anyone who did not get a good helping of the "3Rs" has no one but themselves to blame.

Even a teacher/academic basher like me, finds our basic schooling perfectly adequate, for everyone to prosper, if they want to work at it a little. For ordinary average kids to come out of our system with no 3Rs takes some effort on the kids part to fail.

Hasbeen , I did not explain my point enough.
Children do well from day 1 with the right motivation ;you expect too much of kids whose parents may be struggling with a myriad of problems or where money ,drive and Education has not been a feature of their family's previous generations .
These kids and a lot of their parents ,who do have potential need A LOT of help and Motivation .
If we don't help them we should stop wingeing about them .
Eventually as the numbers increase - one way or another we will pay .

Jim,

You're right - the great majority of the twenty six thousand Indigenous university graduates don't need any particular help from any government agency, they're doing fine on their own: they've seized the opportunities available, which the state legitimately provides, and have reached the point where they don't need its services any more than anyone else.

Another four thousand Indigenous people commenced award-level university studies in 2010. That makes a total of more than sixty thousand since 1990. Opportunities are there, people only have to have the courage and determination - the self-determination - to seize them. The role of the state is to enable such people to progress through their studies to graduation, by funding active student support services adequately.

By 2020, there could easily be fifty thousand Indigenous university graduates and another fifteen thousand students. The people themselves are doing away with the need for a nanny state by doing what they can to become self-determining. Self-determination and dependence contradict each other, you can't have one with the other. So the quicker people take up opportunities, in work or in study (TAFE or university) and then work, the sooner the nanny state becomes an unnecessary involvement in their lives.

Joe

Individual , stop moaning about Aboriginals and face up to facts that we have excluded them from the best we enjoy on purpose, for a couple of hundred years .
Major Mitchell thought the smartest man in his large Southern Exploration Party was Piper - it's been to our Detriment we haven't used their talent - we have content sucking the Riches out of their Land and housing them up near the Tip.
Some very Selfish Attitudes about .

But, Jim, they don't have to stop up there. As it happens, my wife was raised in a tin hut in a small SA country town, up between the tip and the cemetery. No water, no electricity, no sewerage. But she never, never let it get to here, to think of herself as a victim (even in her school photos, there was always this bright beaming smile), and from an unpaid servant on a sheep station, she finished her career as a senior lecturer, and head of SA's Indigenous Education Consultative Group.

The state has responsibilities to ENABLE people, particularly those in hard circumstances, but not primarily to PROTECT them. If people actually are in hard circumstances, then the obligation of the state is to provide pathways for them to get the hell out of their situation and join the rest of the world. Nobody has to be a victim, and nobody is as long as there are pathways out.

Joe

Jim, I can't see that it is our responsibility to put too much effort into trying to get those who just don't want to learn, to start learning.

I saw some of the young boys my son was friends with to whom it was a badge of honor to do badly in school. It did worry me for a while, that it might rub off onto him. You would be wasting your time trying to change their attitude. The only thing that would achieve is a pay cheque for some humanities graduate, & no result.

What I do see is a mistaken way in doing things after school. I could not believe what I saw in New Guinea. To use a back hoe to dig a deep trench past a squatters village, with a hundred able bodied men, who would have been happy to do it was stupid.

It is just as bad to use a $400,000 street sweeping machine to do a bad job, when 4 illiterate men could do it better & cheaper. Would not this be better than paying them dole to do nothing?

I knew a bloke in Bundaberg who had been a wharfy. In his youth he had been in a gang of over 75 loading sugar in bags onto freighters down at the port. Now they have a you-beaut $100 million conveyor system that does it quicker, but perhaps not more cheaply, & lots of kids on the dole.

There may not be high tech jobs for those kids, but they could probably lump a bag of sugar.

Thanks Hasbeen did not know and am grateful mate, keep you informed.
Loudmouth Joe and Jim.
Both you know about this my view may be different.
See I know of the achievements, in 1960 sat on a bus in Blacktown every morning[brief stay in Sydney] with a father son daughter on their way to uni, they became mentors to me, they Aboriginals,went very far.
My life has me looking after the failures, and often thinking they fail because we, while maybe not wanting it, help them fail.
It is them I want to see nanny state help.
Shyness,fear, isolation, all stop some progressing.
Sorry but at the very least I want us to do what ever it takes, for ALL KIDS to get an education and opportunity to work.
I see as separate silly nanny state laws , but value ones that prop up and guide those who need it.
For this reason I firmly think we should have fences both safety and guides.

Got to get To them Early Hasbeen.
Lumping Bull forquarters was a bit of fun for a while !!
Agree with you Belly - Some definitely need help - getting them and their Parents to Accept it ,change the mindset can be Hard , cheers Jimmy .

Nan or nanny, not used as much in my day as Granny.
But I think a nanny is some one we trust to watch our kids.
Remember the feeling?
Our much loved Gran's keeping us with the smaller kids and wanting to bust loose?
Well just maybe nothing has changed.
If you needed a hug and band aid Nan was the one we went to, if she hugged you in front of the little kids?
I think we always need a granny/nanny just in case.
And I think like those trees, should they fall or not fall, we will always blame nanny.
But most of all if she is not their we will hold our breath stamp our feet .
We change little.

Belly as we grow up the role of those nanny's should change unless we are severely impaired.

There are those who need their nanny to do those things but for adults it's not healthy. Nanny's should (and generally do) know better and it's not surprising that most adults would be less than enthused by a nanny still trying to treat them as a child.

R0bert

face up to facts that we have excluded them.
kartiya jim,
If you were to observe the situation more soberly then you'd find that most indigenous are actually excluding themselves deliberately. As for my moaning well, at least there's a truth to my facts unlike much the guilt industry's discrimination catch crying.

Individual,

You make a very good point about self-exclusion - ten years ago, a high proportion of Indigenous university students were studying externally, very often in Indigenous-focussed courses, and were living in country towns, at least here in SA. Over the past decade, those numbers have plummeted, mainly but not only, as lower-level (2-year) Indigenous-focussed diploma courses were wound down, but I suspect more because the pool of willing (and often desperate) students had been tapped.

Rural and remote populations don't seem to be making use of the opportunities which, I'm sure, they have known about for decades. CDEP/welfare seems to be the preferred option: home duties, mowing their own lawns, Toyota rangers, those sorts of onerous workloads.

When my wife Maria tried to set up a Study Centre in her home community, the question was, "Can we still get CDEP?" She didn't get a single person interested over six months of trying, and was quite devastated. Many people there were enrolled in the same TAFE course, year after year, one essay (all essays word-for-word identical with the word-for-word identical essay from the previous year) per semester. One young couple was on close to $ 800 per week, both were on both CDEP and Study Grant, for effectively two days work a year. Sometimes welfare provides a good, easy life, don't you think ?

Meanwhile, a record number of Indigenous people decided in 2010 to stand up on their hind legs like actual human beings and commence university study, more than five thousand. Time will tell soon enough who are the heroes, Jim.

Joe

Joe while I understand your view mine is a bit different.
Look nobody knows more than me, big statement but prepared to back it up.
Some just will not have a go.
I tend to blame us all, yes them too, but what is the wanted out come?
I want every kid educated, every person who can work, any color to work not get the dole.
Work not be carried, and those jobs should be ones we have put out to private enterprise.
AND those jobs must be done very well and at a price.
So we need to nanny even father some.
I am truly sorry, Individual we clash almost every post, but your post come back to me as uncaring.
RObert, mate, do you concede we have the right to try to stop smoking? if no are we to pay the costs of smoking?
Do we have the right to control drinking age, road speeds, are some more in need of Nanny's than others.
What nanny state issue IRKS you.
Those trees back up the thread, one, very very big one, fell in a park near me.
Half the community insulted the local council for removing it.
The other half KNEW it had blown down in a gale.
Knew also the council had called in experts to try to save it.
So they? complained the council should have removed it before the gale.
Every event can be blamed on nanny state.

Jo , A few Questions if you don't mind ?
Did your wife get support from men and women Elders to get her Courses going ?
Also what were the Courses?
At what stage of Westernisation were the bulk of the Community Members and was the Community a cohesive balanced Group without severe Social Problems ?
Lastly ,Did she get enough support from the Governments Federal and State to get everyone on board ?

We [as the colonising Occupiers] seem to be determined to make the Indigenous locals avaricious, all consuming Westerners - the ones that Big Business love .
We are imposing our dubious Standards .
As they look at the facts of their previous wealth being acquired for nothing and being distributed all over the world ,their Culture Disrespected ,I cannot possibly see why they wouldn't go out and bust their guts to give whites a nice profit on their labour !
The answer is a re insertion of the Values that they respect into their everyday lives and Education ,without whites looking down their noses at their every mistake and difference .
A Comphrensive Treaty encompassing Land , Resources and a Political Accomodation of their Difference is required - such as the Maoris received in 1865 .
No wonder the Whites in New Zealand do the Haka and no wonder the Maoris sing their National Anthem in English [as well as Maori ] with gusto !
"Their" Teamwork in Rugby Union dammit ,is worth noting also .

Belly we have the right to stop people smoking where others are going to be exposed to the smoke. We have the right to stop people smoking around children. We have the right to fine the pants off the idiots who drop their butt's all over the place but I don't think we have the right to stop people who want a slow and painful suicide from taking it. There is an argument that the reduced life span actually saves the taxpayer money, not sure how true that is.

If I've got the right to stop someone doing one thing that's unhealthy should I also have the right to stop other things that are unhealthy - big gut's on men, lack of regular exercise (or maybe too much exercise), too much exposure to the sun, not enough exposure too the sun, living with a difficult partner, drinking more than the recommended maximum daily quantities of alcohol. That list could go on and on. Found an online test http://gosset.wharton.upenn.edu/mortality/perl/CalcForm.html maybe a whole bunch of things in there that we should stop people doing as well because they contribute to an early demise or ill health.

The nanny state mentality does not do well with stopping at boundaries that respect the rights of others to make choices, it goes beyond helping those who lack the capacity to make good choices and finds excuses to impose it's "help" or restrictions on others.

As a society we are damaged by the move away from personal responsibility, individuals are damaged by imposed reduction in choice.

Feel free to facilitate problem gamblers being able to wear an ankle bracelet that sets their limits, or let them be micro-chipped if that works.

R0bert

Jim,

Thanks for your questions, although they are mostly quite inappropriate. Answers:

a) Not relevant. She was an elder herself actually.

b) All undergraduate courses available externally through all SA universities.

c) (i) The people in the community - at least their ancestors - had been embedded in the Australian economy since the 1830s. Most men in the late 1800s were fully employed all their lives in 'Western' occupations, shearers, bakers, bootmakers, farmers, millers. English is everybody's first and only language: the last person to speak the full language died fifty years ago. The last man initiated went through an abbreviated form of the rituals in about 1880.

c) (ii) Of course not, no southern communities are. Blame history for that.

d) Yes, to the extent that this is relevant.

I look forward to the day when people on the conservative Left raise even a small cheer for the efforts of tens of thousands of Indigenous people to escape from welfare and join the working world, as workers, as tradespeople and as professionals. But I'm not holding my breath.

Back in the twenties and thirties, Jim, the conservative Right wanted to push 'tribal' people, 'myalls' as they called them, back out into the desert (so claimed by Mrs M.M. Bennett, a genuine member of an honorable Left). Where would you have stood then ?

Joe

RObert will address your issues in another post.
Jim and Joe.
I was bought up around westernized first Aussies,they wanted it that way.
A brother wed one such two nephews too.
My union days bought me fellow workers wed to such, and mates in the job who traced part of their ancestry back to Aboriginal and lived as such.
My history of assisting these folk went way back to work places and help out side work.
Then I got the work place responsibility too.
Took 300 such under my wing, they took me under theirs.
Much of that was hard stuff, shy/fearful/failed folk from the bottom end of life , along side the very best.
I got on very well, because I needed to understand, why?
Why could some not read or write.
Why two or three could not even count their wages.
Some, far more than you think could not fill in a time sheet.
Why
Some, East coast, not outback, had been raped male on male from age 6.
Some had been bashed by drunks all their childhoods.
One had twice, seen siblings murdered in front of them.
WHY
We know why, but we fail every one us too by not understanding we just must stop this.
Until we do we are no better than Apartheid was.

Robert ,We don't want a Nanny State, we do want people to be equipped with ALL the relevant information to make what to most people would be a line of action .
Our DNA ,past experiences ,good and bad, could cloud our decision making - the " old Tapes" playing in the background are not always going to take us to the decision that seems logical .
If someone has had a bad experience that affects their daily life ,we should help to lessen it's imact on decision making if that's what is wanted by the individual.
Jo ,thanks for the answers - just trying to get an idea of the Community .
"I look forward to the day when people on the conservative Left raise even a small cheer for the efforts of tens of thousands of Indigenous people to escape from welfare and join the working world, as workers, as tradespeople and as professionals. But I'm not holding my breath."
Don't know why you would think the above of the Left - I've no complaints about Aboriginal People joining your "working world " .
It should not be White Government Imposed at the Expense of their Culture and Language.
I used to learn French at school - was handy overseas,Indigenous People who want to get Educated in their own working languages for some parts of their Education should be able to do it .
How would I have thought in the 20's and 30's on pushing Aboriginals back to the bush ??
I would have had a typical Settler Attitude is my guess - with a few more calls to get the Dr out to the Station if needed.
Like the choices available for Remote Communities today - do they go to town, lose better health [as reports indicate] language, for the sake of higher Education and big money or do they stay in the bush ?
If they are doing better in the bush [with some help from us] and prefer to stay,then they can stay there forever as far as I'm concerned .

kartiya jim,
Are you placing the Aboriginal of 1865 on the same level as the Maori ? If you do than you really are not being realistic. Culures/Civilisations did not evolve in pace with others. Just look at the europeans in comparison to the Inca or the egyptian. Then you had several highly developed Asian civilisations. They all came & went before the european caught up. The time just hadn't come for the Aborigine as yet. This varying cycle of evolution is nobody's fault it's simply evolution. The do-gooder brigade wants to que-jump evolution & the Greens want to halt it. If only people could be like nature & have the patience to just let it happen, what a beautiful world it could be.

Thank you, Jim, I think you reveal a great deal of where the conservative Left stands in relation to the majority of Indigenous people and their rights, in your answer.

Joe

hate responding to generalities
but we miss that we arnt maories
but abn/origonie..[we have no 'chief']

we dont rule
we lived to survive
lived by concensus...with different 'leaders'..based on experience

we are the people..driven into the wilderness
left in the wilderness..when our children went into the ';promised lands'

we are those to whom the plough refused to yield
[gen 3;17-19]

we have no leaders
only the old ones

we have no prisons
your with us..or explelled
then whitfella come..and named the expelled ones chief

we know no one but biami owns cuntry
land cant be bought or sold..[cause biami aint selling it]
we are a part of the land..just like your hand is a part of your body

then came the nanny state
saying..we got laws..and you broke them
now you go to jail..and your kids go hungry...now they got no culture

now they dont know the law..now they dont even know their skin name..nor know their skin mate...so much has changed..yet nothing has changed..you give us the holy book..and the law books..

and..[you still cant take away the land]

the land is the dust of our ancestors
respect the dead..or we come back to haunt you

Bloke the jobs I speak of are such as national parks and forestry.
And for the most part those working in jobs put a side for them mentored me.
But too, they loudly and clearly want an end to failures from their relations.
It always came down to education and failures at home.
Whites often put the wrong people with the wrong plans in place to fix, and then add to the failure.

Belly , I reckon you are Right.
Jo , for some reason you seem to think, from your reply, that for Aboriginal People to simply Survive in the Bush has real problems .
What are the Problems that seem to annoy you so much ?

Hi Jim,

People can live where they like, and live with the consequences. I'm not so sure that many people are 'surviving' in the Bush, not without standard welfare payments and other financial transfers, nor that there is any long-term answer in dispersing the population across vast areas in tiny pockets: I don't believe a 'remoter the better' policy would be any improvement over the bad old days of the twenties.

But I guess we have to give the conservative Left time to catch up with, and learn from the mistakes and disasters of, the conservative Right which dominated policy for so long.

Three quarters of the Aboriginal population live in urban areas. Most are working. That's been their choice. What are the problems about that that seem to annoy you so much ?

Cheers,

Joe

Joe Jim here we are, three who without doubt want better for some Aboriginals.
And in part we take different paths.
I think I am conservative left,but with ideas not of that faction.
Look my ability has always been to sit with the true down and out,and listen.
It is so hard to try to tell a 30 year old, lost his wife and kids his job his life never got started, he must both except help and help himself.
I HAVE LIED a hundred times,to kick start again such a life, made promises to bosses and knew it was impossible to be sure he/she would not first let them selves down, the boss down and me down.
Those National parks jobs Forrest ones are good jobs, some get a kick start and rocket away uni the lot, come back and mentor others.
But, gee if only, if only reward for success replaced reward for failure.
IF only we cared enought to set this target.
One generation, just one,every kid leaving school having an education a job and a clean roof over their heads.
If we have to take the safety net,spiders web that it is away, Social welfare to succeed so be it.

No problems with Aboriginal People Being Pm Joe .
Have a plumber and a Carpenter ,smart girls ,etc in my family - they play guitar and travel the World .
I have however asked that new borns get additional Traditional Names .
I think that People living on their Traditional Land , who have managed to basically dodge the White man in all his guises need support in Health and Education in THEIR Environment, at the same time accomodating their Culture .
I can remember the language Group in the Kimberleys that I spent a few years with working side by side did not like at at all another language Group predominant in their nearest town .
In their wisdom the Govt.of the Day said "equal wages for you" [for equal work] with the tragic result that is well known, as Station owners drove them to town on the backs of trucks and rang up the nearest Helicopter Company to do their mustering .A huge tragedy .
Lost a lot of good mates to grog and violence and too many cigarettes .
Perhaps Joe, I'm just an old white Blackfella who likes the bush and preservation of aspects of Ancient Law as I'm disenchanted with the latest offering [from both Parties ]! cheers, jim .

So, Jim, let's get it straight:

* you oppose equal wages for Indigenous people, at least in the Kimberley;

* you don't support any form of 'Western' education, or mainstream education, for Indigenous people;

* you are okay with Indigenous groups being hostile and suspicious of each other and remaining disunited into the future;

* you are comfortable with people living short lives due to 'grog and violence and too many cigarettes .' In your view, these are the 'real' Blackfellas, not those city fellas;

If you have time, I would be grateful if you could answer my question:

"Three quarters of the Aboriginal population live in urban areas. Most are working. That's been their choice. What are the problems about that that seem to annoy you so much ?"

Cheers,

Joe