Do we understand this issue.
Too many will say they are over paid, but ignore wages paid in private industry.
Some will pointlessly point across the floor at them.
The others, and say why pay them more.
Think we should consider the power and hard task we place in the hands of our politicians.
And that we should reward them for both with better wages.
And less reason to use that power to increase their incomes in other ways.

if it was performance based the Government would be lining up for handouts. How Peter Costello must wonder how a Government could be so incompetent.

Too many will say they are over paid, but ignore wages paid in private industry.

In private enterprise you have to produce enough profits to get paid a lot or be corrupt. In Government you just show up every now & then & if you stuff up you blame the opposition.
It does appear that no qualification other than a thick hide & plenty unquestioning supporters are required to go into Government.

Well not unexpected answers so far,and not of much substance.
Each of us, even those with some understanding, could draw up a list of those we think are over paid.
My list would be long and include members of both sides.
Best not poke some, do not mind the odd jab at the odd, but my thoughts should remain on topic.
I think our politics has not been this bad from the period 1972 to 1975.
Like then my mob Labor both contributed to its fall, and was victim to power and influence.
No different than today.
And like then government on winning office dropped its pants in public and left even its own unhappy, we will see that too again soon.
We see the informed will know, people getting multi million dollar salary's, doing less than some of our ministers.
We if we have the courage! to look, know increasingly graft and corruption is invading every thing in our life.
Why would some want power if it is not rewarded.
Do we want to employ our best then demand their best or wallow in the silliness that all politicians are unworthy.

Dear Belly,

Josh Fear, deputy director of research body
The Australian Institute, says, "Senior executives
move in the company of people like themselves,
all of whom furiously agree with each other
that their enormous salaries are entirely justified.
Although they see meida reports about the disproportinality
of executive pay, it is likely that many of them don't
really understand what all the fuss is about. After all,
they deliver 'shareholder value,' so aren't
they entitled to it?"

As it happens, the pay of Norris and company has run
far ahead of even shareholder values, as measured by
bank profits.

I suspect that politicians are also the same. They feel
that they are "entitled to it."

Peter Coleman points out in, "The Costello Memoirs,"
"Whatever they may say, most politicians do not go
into Parliament to bring about particular reforms;
they go in because they find the life irresistible.
They want to be in it all their lives. They enjoy its
exhilarating highs and take in its miserable (and
tedious) lows in their stride. They face long
years in the wilderness with equanimity. They take for
granted the slander of fools. They also believe that
the voters will get it right in the end. Their day
will come. They are politicians in the way others
are poets. They can't help themselves."

Coleman may be right.

However we can only hope that who we
vote these pollies will pick ones
of a different parliamentary tradition.

Not - the seat-warmers, the hacks, the
careerists, the adventurers. We can only hope
that we'll get it right
and pick pollies who go
into parliament to make a difference. Pollies who will
work in our best interests and deserve the salaries they
get.

At present however, the pickings are looking mighty slim

Belly:>>Well not unexpected answers so far,and not of much substance.<<

The sentiment is clear, we do not want to reward failures. I don't give a tinkers cuss if a politician spends 16 hours a day and fails or they spend 8 hours a day and fail, they still fail. If they think they are spending more time on the job than they are being recompensed for, let them work 4 hours a day, the result would be the same, FAILURE, that is all we have received.

BELLY>>
We see the informed will know, people getting multi million dollar salary's, doing less than some of our ministers.<<

But unlike our ministers if they fail continually they are out. Bludging failures want more, just like Gillards "give the pensioners nothing, they don't do anything for us" give these failing bludgers nothing because if they get this obscene pay rise it will be FIRST thing they have achieved, and it aint for us.

It had to happen I knew at the start it would.
Partisan Politics rules and our baseless dislike of and feeling that politicians are useless.
Free Market forces play a roll, so very many who put the boot in to high workers wages are unaware of the theory.
The best, in any endeavor, follow the best wages and conditions.
Let us not over look the truth, Rudd imposed a wage freeze at the emergence of the GFC.
A rise is over due.
If we, some from a deep hole of not understanding, wish our politicians to be paid unskilled workers wages,that is what we will get.

you cant compare a life time pension
compared with multi million wages

lest we forget the jobs for the boys
ensure bigger pay after they go

that and a contacts list..that makes them highly valued for big business seking an in....with govt or public service

the scum takes plenty with them when they go
they instal a new dept..then loot and plunderf it for a long long time

lest we forget the great deal labratters
cut with leasing buldings to govt

or others subdividing land ..or bying back logging/water rights
somewhere in there is scum serving scum...then getting a life time pension plus many board seats and other options.

bah
i feel dirty just thinking about the ignorance
with politics its about power

taxing the meek
while bending over..when the money doth speak

Dear Belly,

Why should politicians be rewarded even further
for simply doing their jobs? They have quite a
lot of perks as it is don't they? I mean look
at the size of their Super - when they leave
politics - and look at other benefits that they
reap along the way. For example - writing books,
speaking engagements, TV interviews, et cetera, and
then they manage to get all sorts of lucrative
offers once they leave politics.
My Goodness do you have any
idea how much we continue to pay and support
our ex- Prime Minsters?

Still I suppose other professions are in the same
boat. A typical teller at a big bank earns less
than 1 per cent of what their boss does.

The people who deliver services to customers, the
people who process important documents, the people
who make sure customers get their loans on time
before a property they want is bought by someone
else, are not being rewarded for the success they
are also contributing to. Or what about nurses
or policemen - do they deserve so much less than
our pollies?

I have said for years that we should be paying higher wages to attract better people.

What we need is for higher wages, bonus opportunities and most importantly, private indemnity insurance.

At least then we may attract high profile pollies.

It is not that politician's wages need to be raised to compete with the private sector, but that private sector salaries are too high. It is that old wage disparity thing again.

Politician's wages are paid out of taxes not out of profits of the sale of goods and that there is some expectation of representation of the citizenry ie. a public 'service'. Many political careers lead to greater career advantages post retirement from political life.

That said, however I do believe that politicians should be paid fairly to compensate for the long hours. For example I cannot see how the Governor of the Reserve Bank should be on more than the PM.

On top of wages members of parliament and their family members are also receive other allowances to cover costs of servicing electorates and attending parliament each week.

The calibre of many CEOs is already proof enough that higher pay does not necessarily mean high standards. In fact many who believe in service based work are equally if not more possessed of a strong work ethic and results based culture.

I under stand much of what I say is unwelcome.
That I farm dislike and miss under standings.
But this post touches on a truly held belief.
One that I have always held.
Australians are fickle in matters of politics.
And not those who take the trouble to be informed we do but most do not know much about the subject.
On little substance [remember I talk of EVERY SIDE] we love dislike or blame them for every thing.
Enough of us fell in love with Howard's strengths to keep him in power till he died,if not for work choices.
The rest of us hated him.
The flying peanut Joe,the same, but the rest of us regarded him as a silly old fool! front man for others!
Bob, Hawky, well he settled fights in the industrial arena just as both sides ran out of puff!
We loved him!
Kevin!
We love or hate our leaders, put the blame for every thing on them.
Its true,some blame them for daylight saving fading the curtains, I think that one posts here.
We see both party's elect local members who are like film stars, if we want to we can see them every place.
My party has to have certain numbers of women,the other side has some great scon cooking future CWA leaders.
But we should look into a mirror.
It is us who put them there.
Us who insist they cut tax's raise allowances spend big cut costs .
Why do we not care the bloke running the footy show foot in mouth mostly is getting twice our Polly's pay.
How can we ask a skilled and bright person to take his/her future and say I will forget my financial I want to go broke while serving.

The whole system stinks.

Ho on earth our treasurer can receive the award for the worlds best defies logic, as he has resided over what has to be our worst four years in history and, had they taken away the injection from our mining, boy how different things would have been.

It's a joke to think he is the worlds best.

Another problemm is how they chop and change portfolios.

Nobody in the corporate world is that experienced, as these people can go from finance, to health, to education and then arts, all in just one term.

Rechtub I do not dislike you.
Still have that beer with you.
But hear me man please?
Your understanding of most issues needs repair.
You are talking rubbish, as a mate please consider my words.
Few do not agree.
You seem deep in a hole that you dug, fearing a storm on a sunny day that will not come.
Like it or not your understanding of this subject is nil!
I old mate, have no choice, you are on a list of just a few it is too painful to talk to.
My regards true regards but see you bloke.

Belly, with all due respect, I have a better handle on things than you, as, unlike you, I create jobs, take risks and provide for the masses.

It is very difficult to understand how the wheels turn when someone else turns them for you.

Just remember that mate.

The reason why so much of our money has been wasted and so many projects have failed is simply because these ministers are out of their depth.

History is a wonderful tool and will always show how good Howard was and how bad labor have been since they chopped the legs out from under their best leader in my time, bob.

Take the school halls. Builders would pit in a tender, without a quote and, simply because they were registered they got he job.

OUR PM was in charge of this debacle.

Insulation. Again, no checks and balances and, despite advise from experts, which they ignored, many lives have been ruined and some even lost.

Sme family business that were very successful have been sent to the wall due to incompitent government.

Now start taking some risks and I might listen to you and your labor puppets.

You lot have no idear how to cope other than to increase wages and drive jobs off shore.

Take a bow!

Belly, you say I am I'll informed.

Cast your mind back a few year, I told you the following would happen.

1. The insulation would fail.
2. Julia Gillard would become PM.
3. Fuel watch would be a flop.
4.Copenhagen would be a waste of time.
5. Labor would loose many seats at the election.
6. IR changes would cause mass job losses.

I don't think I need to go any further, as I was right on all of these, yet you call me I'll informed.

Care to defend that.

No not really.
It defends its self.
I leave the thread content to be different.
And if needed wrong.
I See our politicians being charged with?
Being Representative!
Just like us both good and bad, Bright and mad.
Handy as it turns out we can put the blame on every thing on them.
Things we do not understand.
Any thing at all, great to know our fears our dark thoughts right or wrong can be parceled up and blamed on them.
A truism, about wages, any job , any time any group.
If every one of us.
Every job or task.
Got the same wage.
No penalty rates, no over time, no shift allowances.
Soon , some jobs would not find workers, like Capitalism, self interest drives us all.
Soon after bosses would, with out unions, they would not exist, offer better pay, only in some jobs.
Soon that would become practice.
Wages would sky pocket, but some jobs unfilled
My local member is no mate of mine,but if he is as unaware of the theory's behind every action having an impact [He is not] as some lets cut his pay.
Answers exist for every problem, some spend far too much time inventing problems that do not exist to find answers.

few interesting points leaking out
back benchers pay is set to go from 140,000
to 250,000...not bad eh?

how about the average joe mug wage tax payers
begging for 2 %

also noted the beurocrats..in charge of flooding[in qld]
get million dolar bonus...great stuff mr x public servants
supposedly for your experteaze...lol you sleeze

anyhow its all at arms length...lol
thats a grerat joke..no doudt the consultants rates
relate to the pay rates they set

plus then of course the pubic servants..wage rates
relate to the govt members..wahe rates

we got to return to the set rate
SET IN THE CONSTITUTION

with no generous pension
and exclusion from other service for years after service
say one full electrorial cycle..

[heck why get angry]
most posters here are public service
ya getting a wage pension increase floks
great eh

all that and flexie time too
30 hours a week?

bah
and i cant even get a limited net acces
reliably on line...curses on the lot of ya

OUG I am unsure about some of those figures.
Could throw true information about Blue collar workers [working long hours as Polly's do] earning near $200.000
Done those hours 17 a day, then after sleeping on roadside started again.
We work to live.
To earn a wages , have a life.
Rewards [wages]bring extra effort and extra pay.
How many of us would take on the job,long hours unfocused and unwarranted abuse, for what if not fair wages?
Do we then insult every high income earner,are Butchers efforts better than say Abbott or Swans?
Is his chain of shops paying him too much.

belly/quote..""OUG I am unsure about some of those figures.""

yep they are insane mate
heard it on abc news radio

thing is if your happy as a pig in muck
the less light shone on ya the happier they be

if the press even mentions the detail
then the poor mugs simply say..we dont set the rate mate
[its clever stuff all round,..to clever by half as those who set the rate must get an increase for service linked to any pay rate they set]

""Blue collar workers
[working long hours as Polly's do]""

mate long hours
you clearly havnt sat in the galleries in canberra
the only mugs in the parlement is usually the speaker and the one speaking..unless someother opposition spokesperson calls quorum..and they briefly march back in..[to wander out again later]

polies turn up at the kids fete
say a few word..take a picture for the press

and run off to the next meeting..do the same..
then run and hide..[to call it work takes a thick hide]..but then again ya got them shoval leaners..in local govt too

then there is that perk..going overseas..lol..to study how others do the big bludge[you hear of that lot often in question time...when the speaker says..we have in the gallery today..some mug..on his travels on public tic

on his/her way to his next fre lunch
or bribe offer..lol study

""earning near $200.000""

mate who knows
who cares..i wish i didnt hear the details either
all i know is the shovel leaners rate is pegged to his boss pay rate
thats linked into poly pay rates..[than links back into super/pension]

""How many of us would take on the job,""
mate we got fools willing to put up $1000 for it every election

unless your party pays it for you

""long hours
unfocused and unwarranted abuse""

mate half the bloggers here are public servants
why ya think saterday is so quite around here
[the other half call it sabbath]

just like your here for unions
we all got adgendas.,.or why bother

""are Butchers efforts better than say Abbott or Swans?"'
at least they feed us
all the other mugs do is take our cash
and think of nmew ways to get our money for nuthin

like that smokers tax..or that thin air tax..
or gst..or wage tax..or them other over 100 taxes..

each one of them them mugs thunk of
while working for their party machine men

bah

The latest proposed pay rise for Parliamentarians is about the sickest that has come out of late.
I would love to see the conservatives live up to their name on this one & reject the rise. Even more of a show of integrity would be if they could propose a Parliamentarians & Public Servants" pay freeze for the next five years. The money that these people cost the rest of us borders on the criminal.
Wayne Swan as best treasurer can flex his prowess & show how good a manager he is by knocking back this insane proposal. Same goes for Tony Abbott & Bob Brown & Bob Katter.

What we are seeing here is the standard approach of the monopolist.

Our politicians occupy a position for which there is no competition. I don't mean the parliamentary seat itself, of course, which is up for grabs every four years, but the job "member of parliament".

We can't put their services out to the market, and accept the lowest conforming bidder. We can't outsource them to an office in Bangalore, staffed 24/7. We have no option but to live with the fact that they can award themselves any amount of money, at any time, without requiring any form of approval from those who must stick their hands in their pockets to pay them.

Furthermore, we - their employers - have no means to exert any form of quality control over the candidates. We have to select from the slab of trough-swillers that we are presented with at the ballot box, while being patronized with the "you are fulfilling your community responsibilities" line, together with the "it is a privilege to be able to vote" cobblers. How can it be a "privilege" to choose from a bunch of candidates whose only ambition is to collect as much money as possible, for as long as possible, and forever after wallow in obscene pensions and golden airline tickets?

The biggest insult of all, though, is that we are unable to hold any single one of them accountable for the promises they make, prior to their acquiring all that feather-bedding. I personally would have no objection to lifting their pay, in exchange for one, simple agreement.

That they honour the contract that they enter into when they make commitments to us, in exchange for our vote.

Pericles, plus indemnity insurance so, if they stuff up, we are not the ones who loose out. After all, the majority of voters at any election don't usually vote for the sitting government, yet, we pay for their mistakes, point in case the past four years.

Doctors have it, lawyers and consultants as well, why not pollies.

why not pollies.
rehctub,
Name just one pollie that you can say is worth more than a standard wage. If he/she is worth more than state their achievements please.
I simply can't think of a single one.

Last two posts add amusement to the thread.
I understand we like to dislike Polly's,yet few of us ask why the million dollar wages for business managers.
Trouble is, plainly, honestly, for some, understanding has nothing to do with posts.

understanding has nothing to do with posts.
Belly,
I appreciate your honesty.
Anyhow, what exactly is it that makes pollies deserve the pay they get ? I find it a bit rich to see these people perpetually ruining lives with impunity & at the end of their crusade they get huge super payouts for which they didn't even have to contribute a fraction of what we have to. No wonder they love unions fighting to get these rorts while ordinary workers tear out their hair trying to make ends meet.

Indi, the wages we pay pollies is not what costs us so much as the incopitence they display, which leads to the list of stuff ups that is the problem.

Now as for your questions.

I have many mates in business and I can tell you they all hate it now as it is just to hard.

Labor and the unions have put this wall between staff and bosses, so much so that many staff that were highly respected are now treated the same as th masses.

The end result is that your high achievers generally cut their performance to that of the lowest acceptable denominator, and who can blame them.

As for investing, we, in the corporate world invest for several reasons.

For financial independence, the wellbeing of our families and above all, to make money.

We also have to consider our retirement, because, despite the fact that we cretate jobs and pay more tax than most, we are left to fend for ourselves and continually judged by the tall poppy brigade.

Now as for governments, well, simply stop wasting money and they can build and hold assetts, rather than selling them off simply to repay debt.

They ar looking at tax reform simply because they have little left to sell and they have wasted so much that they need to find more money, so they tax the risk takers.

And you lot sit there and wonder why we look at ways to minimize tax.

Stop welfare waste an stop the boats would be a good place to start.

Having fed on humble pie ten times.
To try to do what I never wanted to.
Talk to a poster who gets under my finger nails with long bamboo.
Thinking each time why bother.
But with an in built understanding, true,
Not every one understands every issue, including myself.
I plead guilty.
I can not do it.
That post , its very substance, every word, proves my point.
It is pointless, we just can not converse, your lack of understanding is acceptable.
But your often seen bitter responses to others thoughts can not.
I admit, the thread failed, Politicians are so disliked and understood, we can not get past that, to talk about wages.
I did try.

Don't be so hard on yourself Belly.

>>I admit, the thread failed, Politicians are so disliked and understood, we can not get past that, to talk about wages. I did try.<<

It is a topic that deserves airing every so often. And it is not realistic to blame the audience for the poor acting on the stage. Politicians in general, by their behaviours and actions, have done the damage, not the electorate. Used-car salesmen have traditionally been the benchmark for "least-trusted" profession, but politicians are rapidly catching up...

http://www.readersdigest.com.au/most-trusted-professions-2010-press/

In the UK, they actually reached the bottom of the list five years ago...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-420401/Politicians-estate-agents-trusted-professions.html

Most people do feel equally disgusted with some of the obscene salaries paid to our "captains of industry". But they are at least held accountable for their actions, which is categorically not the case with politicians. Also, the road to the top in public companies is substantially different to the process of becoming a politician - the issue of accountability is built into their every step. Unlike the sleaze and schmooze, faction-fighting and horse-trading that are part and parcel of pre-selection.

They bring it upon themselves. And then have the gall to appeal to our patriotism and the importance of "democracy" when it comes to soliciting our vote.

A plague o' both your houses! I am sped.

Unfortunately as far as Australia is concerned, if we were to increase our pay rates for politicians, it would only encourage corrupt people motivated by pay.
And I should point out that the existing bunch of clowns we currently have aren't exactly going to be motivated to leave once they recieve a pay rise are they?

5 good reasons they all deserve a paycut
have you read this from sortos
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3332326.htm

this is also worth reading
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3332317.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3332316.htm

this too
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3332322.htm

the last one is huge
each topic is worth its own thread

lateline has done some good stuff lately
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/

if you didnt watch
read the transcripts and weep

Belly, you make me laugh at times, especially in the way you cry foul all the time and take things so personally.

We care witnessing a huge change in how our country operates.

20 years ago it was many peoples dream to own their own business.

Ten good years set you up for life, then came the labor government and thier revamped IR laws, the most damaging being UFD.

You see 20 years ago, if you were useless you lost your job.

Also, if you had limited or no skills you either went without, or, you worked lots of hours in order to afford what the jones had.

Not any more!

These days workers in low skilled areas want to support their life styles on minimal hours and that's where the problem lies.

Don't believe me, watch this space as there re very few budding small business people coming up through the ranks.

Now there as some reprieve while the howard gov was in power and, while I accept the WC may have gone to far, life for the majority was great.

So labor was either voted in in 07 by the low skilled or, those on easy street decided it was time for a change. I bet they wished they had not done that now.

History will so that Howard moved mountains and labor has been a dud.

Stay with me a purpose exists to stray but it will take us back on subject.
I have started a few threads about corruption in Australia and the construction industry.
Here is one of them,an ex union secretary, left extremist, owns a Labour hire firm.
He wins contracts including government ones with a bag filled with gifts and cash, and under pays his workers.
He tried getting me sacked for banning him, often,
In fact blue collar workers to company heads get cash and kind kick backs,some 30 years old started with nothing own clear 5 houses.
2 years ago state rail was uncovered here in NSW for millions of dollars in fraud.
Family members got contracts and paid, for work never done, millions of dollars.
Reserve bank is currently being white washed,that is always the outcome for some of its top folk bribing millions again involved.
NSW ICAC is now uncovering multi millions of dollars lost from over 100 government and local government instrumentality's.
IF ONLY! if only my true honest claims again the NSW RTA had not been white washed!
That group time and again sold its workforce out TO CONTRACTORS.
Those contractors, are the very heart of OFarrell current problems with the public sector.
Cutting those jobs,giving the work to contractors was public servants way to cut costs.
How much was paid to who, including former union spokesmen now employed by them?
Cost cutting ? price rose 21%!
Poor politics is a separate subject to poor pay, how do they stack up to other country's?

Dear rehctub,

History has actually shown the opposite to be true.

Do some research on the subject.

History has actually shown the opposite to be true.
Lexi,
how so ? any examples ?

Another thread, lampooning the value of our politicians has started.
If I may be excused for being forthright.
Some of the comments clearly question the understanding of the posters not Polly's.
Brains? remember the quiz master? statesmen Menzies .
List is long not sure as long as the duds but sure some knocking them are no match.

Belly, many companies have moved to contractors for several reasons.

There are the hoops one has to jump through to become an employer.

The blow out of workers comp.

There is unfair dismissal.

There is low productivity rates.

Then there is accountability and duty of care regulations.

Put simply, it is often better to outsource your workforce and let someone else have the hassles.

Now that's a crying shame.

What's worse, is there are those of us who warned this would happen but as usual, governments and unions knew best.

Lexi, how on earth can you think these incompitent fools are doing a better job.

Rechtub it is pointless, time and again I have talked to you about your anti worker.wages/rantings.
You have locked your mind to thinking every thing in your view is the ALPs fault.
This thread proves my point.
You DEMAND better wages for your self.
Wallow in the self praise of being a risk taker.
Then demand a form of socialism for your class and starvation for workers.
While not alone,your idea that politicians are already over paid? bloke kids stuff!
If the thread was about growing crimson sun flowers!
You would insist Gillard was involved in a plot to starve farmers.
UNDERSTANDING! todays new word.
regards

Belly, I have never said pollies are over paid.

Also, I don't dislike workers at all, what I do dislike is the way that labor has protected the weak and unskilled in such a way that they have allowed productivity to be dragged down by removing the incentives for high grade workers to highly achieve.

Now nobody can deny that.

The bar in most workplaces has been lowered by the low performance workers, workers who feel they should be able to live a comfortable lifestyle, sweeping floors for 38hr a week.

30 years ag one without skills had to work two jobs to support thier lifestyle, not any more and this is why we are going backwards.

On a possative note, a bit off track, I must com end the unions for thier objection to the pay role tax.

Good on them as this is the worst tax ever.

I hope they succeed.

Sir Robert Menzies, Ming the merciless, or Pig iron Bob.
As a kid never had any time for him.
Right now, the party he formed, Liberal, has moved right.
My mob too, we both stand in ground he would never agree with.
He was more ALP then than my team today.
Now I think the move had to take place.
This country may well be an Island but is just a state in world trade.
Manufacturings loss is a result, a symptom, of our success, in other areas.
Menzies said, quite rightly, a worker had every right to be in a union.
And to reserve,a fair wage.
Protecting the weak? is there another way?
Are we for prosperity's sake to leave them?
Rechtub, you will not understand, that is true not sniping, but it was Labor who bought in workplace agreements.
Based on the principle of productivity INCREASES returning better wages.
Turn on working poor, tell them they do not matter,and the whole will suffer.
Look at what you present here you will know why I think you are indeed anti worker/poor.

Turn on working poor, tell them they do not matter,and the whole will suffer.
Belly,
that's precisely what Gillard & Co are perpetuating. If your mob was as good as you're trying to convince yourself of then can you please explain why we have poor in the first place ?
You know what the weirdest part of it all is ? We now earn more than we ever did yet we have less money to spend than ever. Maybe that's why they propose a pay rise for themselves in the big house. Something doesn't add up here.

The pay rise if any is managed by outside interests. So it is a bit off to blame politicians. The working poor ,if the far right get a go everybody will working poor.
Any one that works 38 hours is entitled to a livable wage. Only radical right supporters think not.

I will not respond to such remarks.
I will take to any one who has any opinion as long as it is one backed by understanding.
Truth, a host of things most have.
Pointless talking to closed minds uninformed ones and lost ones.
I remain convinced, the anti politician comments are basically from the uniformed.

I will not respond to such remarks.
Belly,
Is it because you can't answer my question?

Any one that works 38 hours is entitled to a livable wage.
579,
Yeah, anyone who works but what about the Bureaucrats ?

579, please:define liveable wage.

Belly, job losses tell the story, as we now have the highest basic wage and conditions going.

Of cause there is a trade of, it's called, outsoursing our labor.

Qantas staff are a classic example, most on more than the average wage of 60K per year, but still not happy.

You pushed for these conditions, now you have them, are you satisfied with your efforts?

The thread now has visitors who want only to insult politicians.
Thoughtful posters will be aware, every country has some dud politicians.
Australia, no more than any other.
And on every side of politics.
We,all of us, those capable of thinking, know in part we are to blame.
We put them there,often two three, or even more times.
In the back ground, hear it, claims only Labor has duds raises its head.
My idea is pay more get more.
Few of us have not bought the cheaper brand, on occasions, and wished we had not.
Now for some time, I have rolled a work place reform/IR/Productivity increases thread around in my head.
Understanding some contributions will be driven by a total inability to understand the economic structure of our society.
Without a wages safety net in place, free market driven wages, we like America would have many more living on our streets true working poor.
I am afraid, truth DEMANDS, in my view remarks made by some about wages are, lets reverse it, lets have wage control, for every thing,and flat tax paid on every asset no exceptions, and price control on every thing, every sale taxed every price set .
Now I have entered the twilight world of failure to understand myself!

Belly, you and I do think alongnthe same lines at times.

I to think we need to pay more for better pollies, after all, if a lawyer/barrister turned pollie earns say, $300K and a practicing one earns $1M in a year, who is likely to be the smarter one.

Wages.
There should be a safety net, yes, but enough to support a living, not a lifestyle. Then, if one is good at their job and earns bonuses, then the lifestyle kicks in.

The problem we have is the way IR is structured, enthusiastic workers often go unrewarded because the bosses hands are tied. Pay a bonus to a good worker, and the poorer one crys foul, and wins!

579.
There is a basic standard of living and a lifestyle.

Now take away the foxtel, the new couch, plasma, then there's the pokies, cigs and grog ( if applicable) the car or two, the average rental house or share acc and you are somewhere near a basic living.

Now I have no problem with a basic wage supporting this, but not a lifestyle.

Hope this clarifies my position.

Floor sweepers.
Now if one is willing and able to clean twice as much area as another, then they deserve to be paid accordingly.

As I say, good wages should be as a result of either skills and or hard work.

Hourly rates create a situation whereby one gets paid for the time it takes to do the job, not for the amoun of work they do.

Tallies are a great idear, but try to introduce them and see how many hoops an employer has to jump through.

Union members and thier reps have a field day with hi type of arrangement, however I must commend belly for his thoughts on productivity.

Belly & rehctub,
I"m afraid I don't subscribe to pay more get more when it comes to people. My experience showed me that what is so desperately needed is integrity & integrity can't be bought period !
It's been the scenario in communityes (Qld) ever since Goss dismantled the Dept. of Community Services. Way more money is handed to way more incompetent bureaucrats to make way more mindless decisions which way more stifle progress & building better communities. Since we have higher paid bureaucrats we have gone from a slight upward gradient to a greased downslide. We'll really need to take a serious closer look at ourselves if we are silly enough to believe that more money will provide more integrity. This is about as much as people can be having themselves on.

This thread had other directions, I will try to start one to talk about this issue now.
I only ask one thing, understanding.
An understanding of the hard yards a union official must put in IF HE/SHE believes in that job.
And that apart from the bitter rubbish, uninformed bigotry we live with.
Some unions some officials, won as many mates on the other side of the table!
Not by selling out members
But by truly understanding both sides of the debate.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/investors-feel-the-pain-while-bosses-enjoy-the-gains-20111007-1ldjg.html
This link should do it.
For those who bother to read it.
It should prove forever we indeed are a weird mob!
It highlights wages of those we employ.
Yes we do! to run our superannuation our very future the money we want to live on.
One single CEO, is paid as much, as the full Cabernet! and including the shadow Cabinet!
And some, rule over losses that are awful.
So tell me, show me the outrage/distrust/defamation we reserve for our politicians here on these fat cats.