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The Forum > General Discussion > Muslims and Christians both feel god will break drought

Muslims and Christians both feel god will break drought

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I was totally bemused this week by the media. It treated the Mufti, who said that the drought was due to the Australian people not praying to god enough, like a moron. Then it treated the great gob of Christians in Canberra who were trying to break the drought by praying to god more, like sane individuals.

Is it against the law for anybody in the media put 2 and 2 together now – either they are all morons or none of them are – you will have to guess what I think.
Posted by Rob513264, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 2:05:44 AM
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Pretty similar to those who interpret every weather event to climate change. You can be sure that every cyclone, storm, rainfall, drought, sunny days will fit into the doomsday GW prophets theology. Saw a laugable example of this again last night on 4 Corners. Heaven help anyone who questions such water tight theology!
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 2:41:12 PM
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How does the Mufti explain the tsunami in Islamic Indonesia and Southern Thailand or the famine and genocide in Sudan. I don't think God has a hand in this drought most of the blame can be directed at global warming and the denuding of our continent by land clearing, and grazing by sheep, cattle and goats. I feel a bare landscape must cause more updraught of hot air and draw in more dry cold air with the prevailing winds from the southern ocean. I am no climatologist but at least it is a more likely scenario than the Mufti's.
Posted by SILLE, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 3:03:55 PM
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There are updrafts of hot air and within the area encompassed by the borders of NSW the main upward movements are above Macquarrie Street and Canberra.
The doomsayers seem to have given up 'Global Warming' in favour of 'Climate Change', this way they can have a dollar each way.

Bring on the Sizzling Ice Age.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 6:07:38 PM
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IS MISE, its a bit like saying it will rain, but not predicting when. Anyone can do that! :)
Posted by Country Gal, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 9:55:13 AM
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It is a pity people did not read the Biblical text. Jesus said rain falls on the just and the unjust alike, it has very little connection to ones belief in or prayers to God. Prayers to God merely expresses our human concerns - drought, fire, famine, earthquake and storm are natural events that test the stuff of the character of man to manage his environment and survive resillient. Real prayers of concern help us to act wisely and make provision for our needs in time of testing. Prayer or lack of it has no direct connection to the weather, how we react because of the adverse environment does affect our actions and attitudes.
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 1:11:16 PM
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Do these religions accept that their God created the drought in the first place? Surely if such an invisible and almighty deity can stop the drought they must have started it.

Why do these various Gods create miseries? Why is Indonesia subject to so much of the deity's wrath? Must have something to do with.... Weather. Gods? What rubbish. Made up friends for supposed adults.
Posted by Betty, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 1:33:18 PM
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But when it does rain both will claim credit that it was because of prayer.
Will the inevitable floods that surely follow be blamed on to much prayer or on praying to hard?

Around this neck of the woods the grass is green, the town's water supply is just about full. Truly then we may say that we are holier than...
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 5:48:38 PM
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Last I heard Socialism was a form of state structure and did not deny religion intrinsically at all – in fact in France there is a Christian Socialist Party.

While I appreciate the argument about god raining on people’s parades or not, my concern was really about how the Muslim and the Christians were differently treated by the media over what boiled down to the same belief, ie that ‘praying to a god’ makes a difference to the weather.

The comment about god being given credit when and if the drought breaks struck home. It shows that the traditional image of god is like the archetypal bad boss, ie she takes credit for everything that goes right and blames you for everything that goes wrong – hey, that describes my ex-wife perfectly – maybe she was god after all – she certainly expected me to behave as if she was. All I can say is thank god for superstition – otherwise we wouldn’t have anything to believe in at all.

I have to go away for a week so please excuse any delayed responses and enjoy.
Posted by Rob513264, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 8:24:02 PM
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MEDIA RELEASE
THE


AUSTRALIAN



FEDERATION

OF ISLAMIC

COUNCILS Inc.


Reverend Nile’s comments an
MEMBER STATE COUNCILS

The Muslim Council of New insult to all Religions
South Wales Inc


Islamic Council of Victoria Inc

The President of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Mr
Islamic Council of Australian
Ikebal Patel said that the comments made by Christian Democrat
Capital Territory Inc

MP, Reverend Fred Nile’s are in no way befitting someone who
Islamic Council of Queensland
Inc claims to be representative of one of the great religions of the world,

Islamic Council of Northern or in fact of a Reverend.
Territory Inc


Islamic Council of Reverend Nile has a history of bringing up such issues before
Western Australia Inc
elections but one expects that the average Australian and New
Islamic Council of South
South Wales voter is much more astute than to fall for this ploy.
Australia Inc


Islamic Council of Tasmania

Instead of looking at some of the very positive contributions that the
Islamic Council of
Australian Muslims have made over some 150 years in Australia,
Christmas Islands Inc


Reverend Nile still wants to impose his bigoted and divisive values
ADDRESS
on others, without adding any value to the lives of ordinary
932 Bourke Street
Australians.
Zetland (Sydney)

P O Box 7185, SSBH
Alexandria NSW 2015 He further said that Australia is a modern democratic country which

Tel has been built and prospered as a result of diverse migration from

Fax [02] 9319 0159 different parts of the world.

Email: admin@afic.com.au

Web: www.afic.com.au As the newly elected President of the Australian Federation of

Islamic Councils, Mr Patel will be inviting Mr Fred Nile and other
AUSTRALIA-WIDE
similar misguided politicians to meet with Muslim leaders in the
HALAL CERTIFICATION
immediate near future over a cup of coffee to discuss various
SERVICES
DOMESTIC & EXPORT subjects. This is the only way to move forward in an enlightened

manner, rather than keep throwing insults at certain groups.
ACCREDITED BY

IMPORTING COUNTRIES

& AUSTRALIAN AUTHORITIES





THE AUSTRALIAN
For further information, please contact::
MUSLIM TIMES



Mr Ikebal Patel (President) Tel -
AUSTRALIA’S NATIONAL
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 11:54:01 PM
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Philo, even though we haven't agreed on many issues in other posts, I think some thoughts you are expressing here are worthy of repetition:

"It is a pity people did not read the Biblical text. Jesus said rain falls on the just and the unjust alike, it has very little connection to ones belief in or prayers to God."

and
"Prayer or lack of it has no direct connection to the weather..."

I'm not sure which religion/denomination you follow but you are sounding less deluded than those religions which are organising drought prayers.
The idea that hordes of people actually believe that praying can actually change the weather is just absurd.

and:
"...how we react because of the adverse environment does affect our actions and attitudes."
Very well said.

I wonder what is in the Bible that convinces other religions/denominations that prayer has an effect on the weather?
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 15 March 2007 7:31:19 AM
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celivia
I think Rob513264 Holds the key to this one.
Indeed why dont they all pray together and why should one be treated as sain and the other a moran
Good Question Rob513264.
Maybe its because the so called sain ones share the views of the fellowing media R. I am not saying hes right OR wrong as we certainly seems to have problems with mixing as one sain country.
I guess you cant have two leaders challanging one another all the time.
Print Email
Last Update: Monday, March 12, 2007. 7:11am (AEDT)

Fred Nile has called for a temporary ban on Muslim immigration. (File photo) (Reuters)

Islamic group scorns Nile's anti-immigration comments
Islamic groups have described a call by the Christian Democrats to suspend Muslim immigration to Australia as divisive and inflammatory.

The Christian Democrats leader, Fred Nile, says Australia should implement a 10-year halt on Muslim arrivals.

Reverend Nile says suspending Muslim immigration is the only way to test the impact it is had on Australian society.

That has angered Nada Roude from the New South Wales Islamic Council, who says it reinforces a misunderstanding in the community.

"There is an assumption that immigration policy is designed just to support Muslim immigration," she said.

Ms Roude says she is not surprised the comments came from Reverend Nile and she hopes the wider community will ignore them.

"There are bigger issues that I think communities are worried about and certainly it's not as though we have a huge level of Muslim migration," she said.

The president of the Anti-Discrimination Board, Stepan Kerkyasharian, says the idea flies in the face of Australia's democratic values.

"It is a very dangerous path to take," he said.

He says a policy that discriminates against a particular faith would be appalling.

"Absolutely unacceptable in a just and democratic society," he said.

Mr Kerkyasharian says Muslim integration into mainstream society is a challenge for Australia, but says that is because Muslims have only been arriving in high numbers since the end of the white Australia policy in 1966.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 15 March 2007 8:02:47 AM
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The truth of the matter is Muslim belief is not based in spirituality but in theocratic laws. It is essentially a political and social system that sees Australian laws as anathma to Allah. They use our freedoms until their community is strong enough to introduce their political idiology abusing our equality and democratic rights. Islam is not a spiritual religion it is based in ancient intolerable laws. People are not free but under bondage to the laws of Allah. Why do you think wars were fought for freedom of our Western values - they despise our society and laws and wish to enforce shari'ah. They are political system opposed to our values. Their beliefs are the enemy of Australian ways and freedoms.
Posted by Philo, Thursday, 15 March 2007 1:01:26 PM
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philo
Are you saying that all muslims coming to Australia are a threat?
Are you saying none of them simply want a better life for their families?
Or/ Are you saying that there are many Islamic Councils and Centers and the Government should appoint - one and One only to be seen as the Muslim leaders and work closely with that Council to ensure good working terms.

FYI Australia has several Islamic muslim Councils.
They compete for power between themselves.
I guess there is nothing really much different about that as so do we.
Are you saying we need to know that there is one leader and anybody arriving in Australia will be expected to look towards that group for religious purpose and the police laws councils and governments for everything else.
Are you saying you think they should have to sign something to the effect that In Australia we dont inter twine our religous with our laws.?
Mind you the Government certainly inta twine Church with politics- but still I guess thats our right because it is our country and our Church.

Or are you simply saying\
Nah No More P them Off somewhere else?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 16 March 2007 7:12:35 AM
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The fact is Western values and the laws Muslims believe came from Allah are in conflict. Those that adhere to and long for a state where shari'ah rule are at enmity with our culture and values. They see death to their opponents as legitimate. The Rev Fred Nile and several of his supporters have received death threats since his calling for a morotorium indicates Islam poses a threat to Australian family values. Laws are the servant of man and not man the servant of laws. We make laws to service our protection and values.

Look at Western societies where Islam is emerging there are real dangers to those of different or no faith. Islam is taking over, says Dutch politician

The Telegraph, Bruno Waterfield, 2 March 2007

“An anti-immigrant politician is making a meteoric rise with his call on the Dutch - once one of the most tolerant nations in the world - to stop Islam taking over Europe. Geert Wilders, the 43-year-old leader of the Freedom Party, is convinced that governments are being forced to accommodate a 'tsunami of Islamisation' that is fundamentally incompatible with European social values. "Islam itself is the problem. Islam is a violent religion," he told The Daily Telegraph. "The Prophet Mohammed was a violent man. The Koran is mostly a violent book. We should invest in Muslim people but they have to first get rid of half the Koran and half of their beliefs," he said….”

At: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/01/wdutch01.xm

They do not believe in intergration, they believe in segreation and laws to accomodate them.
Posted by Philo, Friday, 16 March 2007 12:08:36 PM
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PHILO'S LINK... you need to add an l after the xm at the end to get the link to work.....

An interesting story and confirms exactly what his is saying "Islam is a violent religion" and that there are enough "violent Muslims" out their to bring 600 death threats his way.

To my mind, the whole religion should be removed, because clearly, if you criticize it the moron element will hunt you down. So..it is based on intellectual 'extortion' and physical intimidation.

What IS it about this faith which causes some in every country to react to criticism with violence ? Could it be.. maybe.. the core violence in the religion itself ? and could it be the idea of Insulting the prophet being a very serious 'CRIMINAL' offense in an Islamic state ?

This further underlines the need to remove Islam by proclaiming Christ and barring further immigration. Undeniably, where ever Islam exists, it has sufficient followers who believe in the violent protection of it from criticism. This is totally unnaceptable to our Western values, and if the Muslim community cannot stop it, we must find other ways.

Christians believe God will 'heal the land' when people humble themselves. Muslims appear to believe that Allah will turn the rain back on when all are living in willing or unwilling SUBMISSION to Allah.. under Sharia law.

As far as the East is fromt the West, are these 2 understandings of mans relationship with God.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 16 March 2007 1:10:07 PM
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Can I ask a question? in a debate like this the right of religious freedom is given unquestioned by most is that true?
Then do I have the right not to believe in any God?
If not then religion truly is the greatest danger mankind faces.
In my days as a born again Christian a true church , true middle of the road no cult church asked God to heal a child's broken arm for hours before taking the poor kid to hospital.
It will rain again ,drought is not a punishment and rain will not be a reward.
I am no threat to any religion and hope my rights are as as important as theirs.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 16 March 2007 3:02:27 PM
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Last Update: Monday, March 12, 2007. 7:11am (AEDT)

A COPY OF MEDIA R
Fred Nile has called for a temporary ban on Muslim immigration. (File photo) (Reuters)

Islamic group scorns Nile's anti-immigration comments
Islamic groups have described a call by the Christian Democrats to suspend Muslim immigration to Australia as divisive and inflammatory.

The Christian Democrats leader, Fred Nile, says Australia should implement a 10-year halt on Muslim arrivals.

Reverend Nile says suspending Muslim immigration is the only way to test the impact it is had on Australian society.

That has angered Nada Roude from the New South Wales Islamic Council, who says it reinforces a misunderstanding in the community.

"There is an assumption that immigration policy is designed just to support Muslim immigration," she said.

Ms Roude says she is not surprised the comments came from Reverend Nile and she hopes the wider community will ignore them.

"There are bigger issues that I think communities are worried about and certainly it's not as though we have a huge level of Muslim migration," she said.

The president of the Anti-Discrimination Board, Stepan Kerkyasharian, says the idea flies in the face of Australia's democratic values.

"It is a very dangerous path to take," he said.

He says a policy that discriminates against a particular faith would be appalling.

"Absolutely unacceptable in a just and democratic society," he said.

Mr Kerkyasharian says Muslim integration into mainstream society is a challenge for Australia, but says that is because Muslims have only been arriving in high numbers since the end of the white Australia policy in 1966
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 16 March 2007 4:33:50 PM
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Ah Rob, I thought God in Christianity used a capital "G". This is so in the Oxford and Macquarie dictionaries. Just a point of order.

Some trivia: the Rev. Pat Robinson in the US deep south also said that Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans was God's punnishment on a hedonistic city.

I felt sad to hear that from a Christian Reverend, New Orleans has many dedicated Christians, and it is my favourite city for gospel, heart and soul and jazz music.

They seem to have nutters on both sides, don't they!

I don't wish to offend either side, this is not my debate really. End of commercial break.
Posted by saintfletcher, Saturday, 17 March 2007 12:15:12 AM
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Even in a debate such as this we end up in a Muslim vs us debate.
I still maintain my view the best answer to our fears, yes most of us fear the issues.
Is one day going to come from within the Muslim community not all want devision and while that will be our savior like him or not Nile has put an idea forward many would support.
Why Dennie many are concerned at policy's by both sides of Australian politics that bring such concern and even fear?
The drought will break within three months the other issues will take 100 years to resolve and maybe many lives.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 17 March 2007 6:32:54 AM
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The religious mind views everything through the context of the self and superstition. Cat pee on a footpath will look like Christ a miracle. A comet millions of kilometers away spells doom or a virgin conception. Saying "I hope I die in my sleep tonight" will turn off the bio-organism. The religious mind exists in a perpetual game of dungeons and dragons. Its not just Muslims , its Christians and anybody else who has gods or guru's.

Occult magic is central to religion. Prayer is occult magic to evoke the gods or god to cast a magic spell and create a miracle.

The religious mind has no understanding of reality and so cannot comprehend the physics as to why there is a drought.

Something like those who still deny anthropogenically driven climate change over the past 25 years.
Posted by West, Saturday, 17 March 2007 10:36:23 AM
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Well there are certainly nutters among atheists and appears no shortage. They interpret the gospel by the nutters, rather than the facts.
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 17 March 2007 4:57:56 PM
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I agree with Fred Nile and I don't believe in Yahweh.Just look at
Muslim track records in their own countries.It is bad news for us all.
It is a facist belief system dressed up in religious respectability.

Should we willingly bring Nazis into Australia under the banner of being anti-discrimitatory.Not if you want harmony in your society.

Islam and democracy are poison to each other.The Imams have seen the demise of the Christian faith with freedom of democratic thought and no way will they relinquish their power to a bunch of skippy infidels flaunting their uncovered meat on our streets.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 17 March 2007 8:26:06 PM
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Good one guys.

If the above posts are anything to go by we `are` in trouble.


We have the good Christian picking on Rob about his slip of a fingure in a [g G]
I will just say how ungentlemanly or unlady like of them.' ooh aar he missed a capital Forgive me lord for I have Sinned!

I am also wondering if the good old Rev Nile actually really understands the problems

Rev Nile suggest halting imagration for ten years by Muslims but offers no follow up plan.

Does anybody understand why they fight in other countries amoung themselves? Same as anywhere else- for power - for control.

What the Government need to do and SHOULD HAVE DONE is to only allow ONE Islamic council within Australia instead of `thirty two.`

Has it ever Occured to anybody that the good Islamic leaders need our support too along with the Governments?
Well they do so heres news.
As for Rev niles idea I should think we should stop ALL imagration to Australia for ten years except for skilled! workers which we are desperatly short of for others reasons.> WE HAVE NO WATER

Also until we fix our aboriginals peoples housing and employment.

We need a single desk when dealing with Halal Products so we known darn well who we are funding.
There is a fortune in Halal Meats for eg and products world wide.
Its a billion dollars and growing Biz. So the question IS why are AQIS and certain departments of trade doing electronic export licences and Halal Accreditations with 'god' knows who? Or Should I say Whom 'saintfletcher'?
Havent we all seen enough with the way they handle trade through the AWB enquiry.?
They were funding the devil himself but sure its ok now because we hung him.
Even if we stopped all muslim coming to Australia Rev nile it wont stop the funding until we have a one desk office of all Halal Accredited products and one only Islamic Council instead of thirty two in Australia.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 18 March 2007 3:08:20 AM
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Old Fred can get it right too! hard to believe but he has had an idea that most Australians share.And that a few who deny it is a view those Australians have or are entitled to say is evil or wrong.
Education can be a savior, but if it is to hate? to never become part of our culture?
Accountability is a worthwhile standard for all our actions all of us, but what if lies are used as often as we drink water to cover a growing undermining of Australian culture?
Some within both major religions are a threat to world peace, more in my view thought needs to be given to increasing the devisions in our country, Fred just once you got it right.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 18 March 2007 7:19:33 AM
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Well, here we see some teddy (god) talk concerning the drought and then teddy playpens fighting each other defending their king teddy. When will people ever grow up to the fact that there are no teddies and no one is ever likely to find one no matter how hard they grovel.

On matters of mind ......

Just seems for the teddy believers it is mind before matter which is impossible, therefore there can be no teddy.

Mind over/under matter comes from this teddy belief, therefore simply sees humanity more like a parasite living on a host with classic alpha and omega insecurity. Now that is belief in belief or religion which generally builds down from some anthropic principle using deduction ...... never to find anything of course but gives us the entirely maladaptive.

Mine is mind out of matter which matters a great deal with unparalleled richness. This is where there is an inseparable quantum inter-connectedness as reality that requires assumptions like infinity, relativism, causality, uncertainty and complementarity.

AND ...
Isn't it the inductive mindset that perceives everything coherently and harmoniously in an overall whole, that is undivided, unbroken and without border, which flows to orderly action and along with it to the creation of an overall environment that is neither physically nor "mentally" unhealthy.
Posted by Keiran, Monday, 19 March 2007 9:40:27 AM
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'Way out west where the rain dont go' its raining today and there is rain forecast for most of the week. There are no Christians to pray for rain here of the two churches one is a couple of walls and a pile of stone , the other rebuilt into a house. There are no Muslims to pray for rain. There are no custodians left here , the indigenous people long forced out but as I watch the moist black clouds fuse grey haze with the earth as they follow the creeks to the hills I gather the origional custodians saw this all very differently. Despite the drought there are still rock pools and mud springs along the creeks. Wildlife still gather at these places. This year has seen bumper crops in quandongs, native peach and acacia seeds. Starchy bulbs like old mans beard dont look like they have suffered a drought at all. European bees have all but gone except near the creeks and native bees appear to be enjoying a population revival.
It is not hard to imagine when biodiversity was higher a drought would have little significance here.

The problem we are facing is not drought , it is reoccuring drought which is climate change to a climate where rain falls infrequently. Prayer is a waste of breath , it is occult magic which is useless except for entertainment purposes. If the superstitious really want to bring the rains back then they should work at arresting climate change and stop polluting the atmosphere.

Those who use prayer as a brainwashing crutch should pray for strength to use less resources and the ability to buy environmentally friendly, convincing yourself a drought will break is doing nothing.
Posted by West, Monday, 19 March 2007 11:36:12 AM
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West I assume you drive a modern air conditioned car, live in a house using electricity (obviously your on the internet). Could I suggest you change your use of energy and transport. Horses also discharge methane gas into the atmosphere. You are just as responsible as your neighbour for polluting the atmosphere affecting climate change. I suggest you begin by putting into practise your notion that man is responsible for the drought. After all that is what the religious are claiming - though I dissagree.
Posted by Philo, Monday, 19 March 2007 4:33:46 PM
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Philo when we built our house we solar orientated it to capture the breeze and winter warmth. The north side is shaded by deciduous trees in summer and is exposed to the sun in winter. I plant between 50 to 500 trees a year depending on need carbon capturing any emissions I have created out of electricity or car use. I am fortunate there is little obstacle to my driving routes , a slow moving vehicle produces more pollution. We do have a private woodlot. We do have airconditioning but we only need use it on the hottest days, yes the worst time to use electricity. We heat the home with a filtered combustion heater , we use between two and three 10 year old trees a winter. We have enough wood for 1000 years in the wood lot alone. We only keep enough live stock on and off for private consumption. The waste product ends up as compost to fertilise our vegetables. We had considered using our sewerage for methane power generation, alas I am either too busy or too lazy to follow it up. I could do a lot more like anybody.I do do a lot more besides. I have minimised my footprint mostly accidently as I hate clutter but my footprint over the past decade and a half would be much lower than the average suburbanite.

Philo I am surprised that you a chemical engineer does not believe pollution has effect and affect. Religion is not addressing polution and its climate change it is simple saying god is punishing us, which of course is nonesense.
Posted by West, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 11:36:47 AM
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BOAZ: ‘…there are enough "violent Muslims" out their to bring 600 death threats his way.

To my mind, the whole religion should be removed,’

What exactly do you mean by ‘removed’? That is beginning to sound a little euphemistically sinister.

Posted by saintfletcher, Saturday, 17 March 2007 12:15:12 AM:
‘Ah Rob, I thought God in Christianity used a capital "G". This is so in the Oxford and Macquarie dictionaries. Just a point of order.’

What an excellent observation.

The ‘God’ usage only imparts ‘defining characteristics’ within monotheistic religions. In Hinduism for example there are hundreds of gods – to use the single name ‘God’ for a myriad of radically different entities would be stupid. And even within monotheistic religions defining characteristics are only consistent among members of that particular religion, eg even though Christianity and Islam are both monotheistic it seems, from casual observation, that they don’t regard the entity they each call ‘God’ as the same thing.

Apart from that, the ‘god’ usage has been the common convention among academics and anthropologists for many decades for exactly the reasons stated above. This means that the fault lies in the dictionaries themselves and it adds fuel to my assertion that the MacDic was only ever an Australian edition of the OxDic with a little fresh pepper on top. I don’t know who is in charge at MacDic anymore but if I stumble across an example to cite (and I can be bothered) I will send them a citation and use an extract from your post, covering the consistency between the 2Dics, in support – I know it isn't necessary but we do like to add a twist if we can, do we not? It should be especially ‘twisting’ considering Macquarie’s trumpet blowing about the superiority of ‘descriptive’ theory’ over ‘prescriptive theory’ and their application of it.
Posted by Rob513264, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 4:35:19 PM
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Good grief. If this is true, I think all religious people should throw away all the technology and lifestyle they have and see how far their primitive beliefs in a magical sugardaddy gets them. I will predict the answer. NOTHING. They will all starve and die off.
Posted by Steel, Thursday, 22 March 2007 3:21:43 PM
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