Just recently a soft core proposition surfaced that W.A. should become independent from the rest of Australia. This is not the first time that this proposition has been mooted. W.A. is a wealthy State, because of Exploration and Mining booms and, of course the Royalties which come as rewards for the State. A larger proportion of W.A.'s GST is given over to the the Federal Government,which in my opinion is "fair enough".
However W.A. residents pay more for domestic gas than do the people extracting it (overseas companies no doubt). But by the by. Many people on a few occasions have moved for State Independence, one such notable was of course, Prince Leonard of Hutt River Province, who actually broke away from W.A.with his farm, which then became Independent from W.A. Government. Of course he was regarded as a joke, but the joker made heaps of money, literally, he had his own currency printed, was able to KNIGHT people if they visited him, in fact it turned into a lucrative tourist attraction. I would like to think what people in other States think about this. Our Premier said that "I am Australian First, and Western Australian Second". I too am a Western Australian. Would like some comment, personally I think of Australia as a one population.
NSB

Hi Noisy. As a Queenslander I can well understand the desire of many in the west to divorce Oz.

For the hundred years or more, when Qld & WA were agrarian societies both states were ripped off mightily by the import duty system. It supported NSW & Vic in their inefficient industries so that we paid too much for not only our imported inputs, but for the locally produced inputs as well.

Of course country NSW & Vic ware also disadvantaged, if to a lesser extent. It is fair to say that the prosperity of all Oz was to a greater or lesser extent, compromised to support the two Gross cities of Sydney & Melbourne.

We may no longer have those import duties strangling us, but we now have the huge albatross of Canberra, & it's burgeoning bureaucracy to bleed us to the bone.

Perhaps we, WA & Qld should include the Northern Territory & form a new country, letting the south east try to survive on it's own initiatives. It would be much less expensive supporting the territory rather than the whole country.

Once a separate country we could decide how much foreign aid we were prepared to give to our poor southern neighbours, rather than have Canberra decide how much of our wealth they are prepared to let us keep.

Did you notice a thought balloon floated recently, suggesting that mining royalties should accrue to the Commonwealth, rather than the states. They never stop trying to get anything of value into their grasp. I think the Canberra bureaucracy actually live in fear that the two resource states may just decide to get out from under some time. Without our income, half of them would have to go.

Hasbeen

Personally, I could not care less one way or the other but often these romantic ideas can backfire long term

Hospitals, Schools, Animal Welfare etc etc. Whom are the answerable to in 50 years 10 years time?

Apart from which it wont happen because it would be blocked imop

cheers

Noisy, I say a big fat NO to the secession of WA.

WA Premier Barnett was right to raise mining taxes recently, as there should definitely be a better return from OUR resources to US, and less to the mining companies.

And Treasurer Swan was also right to then reduce the amount of GST that WA would receive and hence increase it for the other states. This effectively meant that the whole country benefitted from an increase in mining royalties in WA, as it should have.

As you say, because of the wealth generated in WA, the federally controlled GST was already less for WA than for other states. But it should be this way, as the returns from our resources should be approximately evenly distributed across the country.

There is pressure from some people to get WA to secede so that it can hold on to the wealth generated here in the west and not share any of it with the rest of the old country.

Phoowey to that! That would only create conflict.

And it would then put pressure on Queensland to secede and for north Queensland to become a separate state, and for different regions with different types of industry to become more autonomous, etc, etc.

One country with a better distribution of wealth, that’s what we need. Not two or more countries on this continent with significant wealth differentials.

Queensland and WA may now provide more income to the Commonwealth than they receive from the Commonwealth . A proper independent accounting would be necessary to verify that , and not merely an assertion such as is contained in the opening post .

However , before the recent mining boom , those states were net debtors to the Commonwealth and that should be brought into account . Once the non - renewable resources have been exhausted , those states may again become dependent on the Commonwealth . They may become massive versions of Nauru .

Apart from the economic considerations , states with smaller populations may require assistance from the Commonwealth in case of war , where a larger national defence force will provide greater protection than smaller mini - country defence forces . Australia commands greater respect internationally as a country of 23 million than smaller components of the present Australian continent would command .

Secession is a fantasy which periodically is raised whenever a small number of disaffected residents in the relevant states feel aggrieved about not receiving what they believe is their entitlement to share more generously in national wealth . Like all fantasies , it makes people feel good for a while , but the fantasies never become reality . Neither will secession .

I am all for secession of WA and the use of the continual threat
of secession, to get a fair deal for WA. At the moment the place
is treated like a cash cow and little else. Only the best for
Canberra and surrounds, WA gets a few scraps and all the costs
of infrastructure to bankroll the rest of the country. Phooey to
that!

Ludwig

I suppose you have a point. After all the minerals belong to all Australians. Its Australia. Another thing its pretty wild and woolly in NT & WA. I dont mind it myself but my point is we can have two states not becoming civilized. One of our daily problems Ludwig is coordinating the different states with the different so called codes of practices. Its a nightmare already. I think they are basing their strategy on greed tbo. What I mean by that is- they feel the minerals are theirs and not the Australian public's.
The fact is these resources belong to the whole of Australia - not just western Australians.
My other concern would be WA have a bad habit's of putting all their eggs in one basket.
We have seen this with live exports because they have not bothered to have alternative markets. Therefor its quite unsustainable.

As soon as something goes wrong the entire industry stops.

Now they want to do likewise with minerals. If it were up to me I might allow it - because when the minerals run out in 50?

Thats when they will want to return to the fold.

A very dangerous idea for peoples grandkids-- but no skin off my nose

Cheers

I think perhaps it should be kept in mind that all our existing state and territorial borders are purely political constructs; they have no geographic, ethnic or cultural significance.
Why not go back to the original 500 odd aboriginal nations? At least they are/were culturally and linguistically significant. Of course, then you would have the nation enclosing such places as the Hammerslys asking why it should subsidise other nations which just happen to share the same island/continent...

Hi Ludwig,
My sentiments exactly, I am evenhanded about the whole thing, I just wanted to throw my hat into the ring so see what other's thoughts were.
Perhaps some things should change at the behest of the Feds, for example, a uniform Hospital system, same with Police and other Major Government agencies, but often times, the Feds, hand down policies (although, I cannot name one yet ((I am full of a bad cold right now)),
which have no bearing on the different ways of life applicable to the larger States/Territories of this wonderful vast Country. Unfortunately there is an endemic problem with our City pollies, whereby some of them have no idea about the folk who live remotely in W.A., I would imagine it is the same with Qld.
Good to hear from you Ludwig.
NSB

Hi Ludwig,
I agree that Barnett was totally right to increase/impose mining tax. I become a little antsy when I see the millions disappearing into the ether of faraway countries. My main beef is with the massive spending proposed to re-design the Perth fore shore and such like.
Ah Me! the vagaries of life. Will go out and do some grocery shopping and then rest my weary body and nurse my dreadful cold., and dream of warmer climes.
NSB

Yabby, you wrote:

<< At the moment the place is treated like a cash cow and little else. .. WA gets a few scraps and all the costs of infrastructure to bankroll the rest of the country >>

I can’t see it. I can see a quality of life, including infrastructure and services, which is just the same as for the rest of the country. There are no significant differences.

This indicates a pretty fair wealth distribution mechanism, I would think.

So, in what ways do you think WA is not getting a fair deal?

Ludwig, you are wrong about services mate.

But to start with I have mentioned that my son is the 4Th generation of this family serving in our defence force, so I guess we must approve of Oz.

However the lack of resources, particularly where the money that pays for them comes from is disgusting.

Drive from Broken Hill to Moranbah, & compare the road to those around Brisbane, or particularly that total waste of space Canberra, & you will get an idea.

Again think just where you would like to have a heart attack. Much better to be a city based public servant, than one of the miners, or stock men who pay that bureaucrats salary.

If the infrastructure & services were a bit better distributed, there would not be so many complaints. If there is to be an imbalance, the large teaching hospitals, & universities in Qld should be some where up Rockhampton/Mackay way, definitely not in Brisbane.

While you are relatively well treated in the Townsville/Cairns region, the rest of the state is basically a mine for money to be wasted in George st Brisbane.

This is not sour grapes either, I'm in chopper range of PA hospital, where my heart attacks have had great treatment.

*So, in what ways do you think WA is not getting a fair deal?*

Firstly Ludwig, minerals do in fact belong to the States, as was
agreed at Federation. People can't just make up rules as they
go along.

WA has huge infrastructure costs right now, to deal with the growth
that is taking place. Its a huge State, covering a third of the
country. Its a young State. So it faces all these huge costs which
other states don't face. There is no good reason why royalties
should not fund those developments.In fact is was country West Australians who rebelled at the last elections, sick of being
treated as backward citizens and voted for royalties for regions,
so that some of this wealth goes back to where it is created, in
the regions. They kicked out the last State Govt and now at least
funding comes out to the country. If we don't yell and scream,
we get shafted and forgotten, it is that simple.

WA is an export state. Now you might not like these developments but
the fact is that Australia has to pay its bills, mining and agriculture are the only things that are going, without them
Australia would be a banana republic.

If you have ever tried to do business in this State, you realise
what you are up against, when everything has to go through Canberra.
When our meatworks were screaming for workers and could not find them
locally, they tried to get 457 workers. But alot of the time they
could not even do that, Canberra red tape. The latest saga over
cattle is another one. Ludwig did not have a clue as to what is
happening in the North of our State. He was to busy listening to
hysterical Eastern States city housewives to consider our pastoralists, who now wear the cost of his foolishness. Terry
Redmund is local, at least he understood our industry.

We are simply so far from the East, that alot of the time we are
simply forgotten.

Hi Jaylex
One of our best friends, whilst living in Kalgoorlie, was one of the World's renowned consulting geologists.
I asked him in the early 90's, "when will the precious minerals run out in W.A.?"
His answer?, " we haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg yet....and that is just in W.A.," so I don't think that there is much danger in the distant future of mining W.A. until all we have left will be big holes in the ground.
Thank for you comments,
NSB

Hi Noisy

Wishing you a quick recovery from the winter sniffles.

Hasbeen, I was suggesting that services in WA are comparable to those in the rest of the country. I wasn’t saying anything about the difference in services between city and country areas or different regions within one state.

I agree with you – services and infrastructure are very different in different places in Queensland, and indeed in different areas within WA. But on a whole-of-state basis, I can’t see that WA is doing any worse than any other state.

Dear Noisy,

Europe's got the European Union, the US is a unification of over 50 states. Each of these areas have a population well over 300 million and we in Australia with 21 million are arguing about splitting up the country? Allright WA has the mining boom but it's a huge land area
with a small population. That's why they have the capability of mining. The Eaastern states are more densely populated - the land is used for food production and nobody wants to dig up the agricultural lands. Recently the Chinese bought up large areas of agricultural land
near Tamworth NSW - because there's deposits of coal under the farmland. The local farmers are protesting this take-over. I'm sure if
WA broke away - the rest of the states will manage to replace the mining if it became a necessity - but it would be sad to break up
the Australian nation as we know it. The Australian continent is one of the oldest land masses on this planet and extensive resources are buried under its weather-beaten surface.

<< Firstly Ludwig, minerals do in fact belong to the States, as was agreed at Federation >>

Yabby, I think this is rather unfortunate. I would have thought that our founding fathers would have seen the merit in having resources like this owned by the commonwealth. Surely they would have realised that different states were going to have different mineral wealths and that this wealth differential could create real problems.

But I guess it was very different times back then prior to 1901 when gold was the biggest mineral wealth generator I guess, and it was presumably largely mined by individuals or small enterprises.

So the Federal Government has a very important job to even out the differences in wealth generation in the different states and make it translate into a more or less uniform quality of life for all citizens across the country, thus effectively cancelling out the state ownership of minerals, or of mineral taxes, royalties and other regulations, and in effect rendering them federally owned and regulated.

<< WA has huge infrastructure costs right now, to deal with the growth that is taking place. >>

Very interesting Yabby.

Firstly, isn’t growth supposed to generate wealth well over and above the costs? Isn’t that what we are always being told by our illustrious pollies and economists (or pseudoeconomists, or false economists more like it!)

Secondly, you agree with me that continuous population growth is bad news. You presumably see this applying in WA as much as anywhere else. And not just population growth but growth per se.

So, do we want all this growth? Should the commonwealth be funding it to a greater extent in WA? Or should they be trying to temper it by reducing funding somewhat?

I think that too much commonwealth expenditure is going into it and that it really should be wound back.

<< …sick of being treated as backward citizens and voted for royalties for regions, so that some of this wealth goes back to where it is created, in the regions >>

But, don’t you think the regions where big wealth is being generated are doing pretty damn well?

What about the towns of the Pilbara, or the region as a whole? How does it compare with many other sparsely populated parts of the country that don’t have this sort of wealth generation? It would come out miles ahead, wouldn’t it?

<< Ludwig did not have a clue as to what is happening in the North of our State >>

For the benefit of other readers, you are referring to Senator Joe Ludwig, Federal Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, and not to me…. I hope!!

*Firstly, isn’t growth supposed to generate wealth well over and above the costs?*

Well it does, Ludwig. The miners are the highest paid workers in
the country. Their income tax goes to Canberra. Company tax goes
to Canberra. Offshore oil and gas royalties go to Canberra.
WA is left with the extra infrastructure costs, for more power,
water, roads, etc, in what is a largely undeveloped part of the
country. Services and infrastructure in the NW are actually pretty
poor. Just recently we had a traveller on OLO, bitching about them.
The money has to come from somewhere. Other States don't have all
these extra costs and I don't think that WA should have to bring
in the pokies to fund it either. I am glad they do not exist here.

*Secondly, you agree with me that continuous population growth is bad news*

Yes Ludwig, but within reason. If you look up the figures you will
find that WA popoulation per sq km is around 3 people, its one of
the least inhabited places on earth. Australia needs the money to
pay its bills, the Eastern States have proven incapable of generating
the exports to do it. Its either WA keeps moving or Australia = a
banana republic. Keating understood all that.

*I think that too much commonwealth expenditure is going into it and that it really should be wound back.*

So give us back our GST, the onshore royalties are ours anyhow.
We'll do it ourselves, like we do most things. We really don't
need that wall of officialdom from Canberra to function. They are
largely out of touch with this part of the world anyhow and most
of our trading is with overseas.

*you are referring to Senator Joe Ludwig*

Oops, sorry, I should have made that clear :)

Yabby,

I am willing to consider yes WA is big and new with special needs for roads. However, had your government - both now and past had the foresight to get some infrastructure into country regional this might be better.

*When our meatworks were screaming for workers and could not find them
locally, they tried to get 457 workers. But alot of the time they
could not even do that, Canberra red tape.*

True and you know who put that tape in place too.

** Ludwig did not have a clue as to what ishappening in the North of our State. He was to busy listening to hysterical Eastern States city housewives to consider our pastoralists, who now wear the cost of his foolishness. Terry **

Ludwig, no problem to tell you wants going on. These people who send knowingly millions of our Australian live stock to be tortured to death AND put the poorest of Indonesian farmers into bankruptcy
have been told for years to build some abattoirs and do value adding.

They didnt- so when you look at just that- perhaps we ought not allow them their own state.

At least until they can prove they can run their own affairs.

Dont you just love the way they blame Joe Ludwig- get my pint.

We dont get to blame anybody bar ourselves if our business flop ah

Canberra is a city not an entity. The taxes paid into general revenue come from all taxpayers (not just WA residents) and go to pay for infrastructure all over Australia.

Red tape is rife in local, State and Federal Government. Getting rid of one layer does not necessarily improve the situation, it just moves it around.

WA is part of Australia. If the criterion for separtism was dissatisfaction with the Federal Government, wouldn't we all be raising the separatis flag evertime a policy was implemented to our disatisfaction. State Governments are pretty woeful at times too.

Certainly more money should be ploughed back into developing those mining towns which are characterised by overpriced housing (detrimental to the non-mining workers who do not benefit directly from the high wages in WA's two-speed economy). This is despite the instability of fly-in-fly-out type arrangements for the most part.

Queensland mining towns have the same problems. Many local councils have had to provide free housing just to get people not involved directly in mining to move there to support the huge influx of mining workers.

West Australians do seem to feel a bit separated by virtue of a large desert space inbetween. Maybe if the Commonwealth Government was located in the middle, it would quell this sentiment. Adelaide maybe?
:)

Yabby, while there might be merit in some of your arguments, secession is surely not the way to deal with them.

I think that there are real and imagined disparities at all levels across Australia and that the Federal Government deserves to get a lot of flack over it, as do State Governments. I really don’t think that WA is getting worse treatment than other states in this regard.

Sure, we should be pushing hard for our fair share of the national handout here in the west, but the threat of secession should not be a part of it.

As Pelican says:

<< Red tape is rife in local, State and Federal Government. Getting rid of one layer does not necessarily improve the situation >>

State governments are really just as bad as the Feds when it comes to fair and equitable funding. So if WA was to secede, it would still have the same sorts of problems, or perceived problems, and you would still have to push hard for funding in areas that you feel it is inadequate.

continued

Presumably a referendum would be required for secession to succeed. And the history of referenda suggests that the no vote would win out, unless there are compelling reasons for secession, in the minds of the people.

What compelling reason could there be?

There is only one that I could think of and that is if the wealth being generated in the Pilbara, Northwest Shelf, etc, really is promised to translate into big gains at the personal level for WA citizens, once it is kept entirely within the state and not shared with the rest of the country.

Now, if this was to be the case and a big wealth differential did result, there would be a huge exodus from ‘Eastralia’ into ‘Westralia’.

While that might delight the pants off of Colin Barnett and his big bizzo buddies, it would work to progressively dilute the financial benefits on a per-capita basis and it would heap more pressure on seriously stressed water supplies and on other resources, infrastructure and services.

In short, a wealthier west would no doubt increase population growth considerably, with all the negative factors that go with it. Either that or disincentives for people to move to WA would have to be implemented. But that won’t happen in a fit with the current government or anything like it.

There would also be an ongoing big lot of resentment from Eastralia about the sudden loss of a huge source of income.

So, do the perceived benefits of secession outweigh the negatives? Not by a long way, I would think.

What compelling reason could there be?

There is one very good one. WA are pretty much dependent on exports- me so than many others accept NT.

Now IF funds were used to fix roads and put some value adding in- bring in migrants and new comers to regional towns that would be a good thing.

So long as they were not just going to sit back and make coal their only industry with all the eggs in one basket it might have Merritt.

Kerryanne,
Some good points for sure, but tell me where do we house any migrants in the State, water is an issue for a start, small towns are becoming defunct, we cannot get Doctors to come to the smaller regional areas, and where the hell would they, the migrants, find jobs? Yes, the miners earn good money, but then they have to pay out up to $2000 per week to rent a house, and to buy a one in the North/northwest of this State is almost financially impossible.
Even in the S.E. of W.A., the freight charges added for ordinary everyday things such as food etc can be quite high, worse in the North West areas.
The City of Perth is becoming crowded, some folk are living in their cars because they cannot get a house to either rent or buy (they are, to be fair,a minority), and we still have people living on the streets.
Maybe you have the solutions, because I cannot think of one.
As it is we are building and commissioning Desalination plants on the coast just to find some water that is potable.
Cheers,
NSB
PS Maybe some small defunct headed towns can be re-built, but where would there be jobs for any migrants, or medical services?

Kerryanne,
Re: your comment on your last post - "so long as they don't sit back and make their coal industry the only one", are you referring to W.A. or what?, coal mining in W.A. is relatively small compared with their other mining industries, ergo Nickel, Iron Ore, Oil, Talc, silver, and the list goes on.
NSB

Ludwig, your docile approach is all very well, but I assure you that
the meek don't inherit the earth, the squeaky wheel gets the oil :)

You are not in WA most of the time, I have been watching this stuff
for 30 years now. What improvements we have in the bush, were hard
fought for, not by pleading, but by threats and political action.

The Brookton Highway was once so bad, that they had to slow traffic
to stop accidents. Meantime the Burke Labor Govt was shovelling money
into the hands of Connell and Bondy. It was only when we got a farmer
into making decisions, that we got a great road. The list goes on.

Wealth is not just created in the NW, but right through the State.
Those road trains heading to Perth, loaded with grains and livestock,
are making the country better off. There are mines all over the place
and there is no reason why WA rural residents should be treated
as second class citizens. If its good enough for Canberrra, its
good enough for the rest of us.

Yes, red tape is everywhere, but smaller democracies invariably
function better then large ones. Residents are closer to the policy
makers. Try doing anything in the US or EU, you have buckleys.
Try a smaller country like Switzerland, it all changes. I can get
action from the local people in WA. Once decision making resides in
Canberra, WA gets lost in the political fog of us over here not
mattering too much, apart from as a cash cow. The minister is too
busy worrying about the numbers game of NSW and Victoria.

Given that we generate half the country's exports and Australia needs
us far more then we need them, I think it would be foolish not
to use the threat of secession as a bargaining tool, to make sure
that we get a fair deal

Pelican, Adelaide as the Oz capital is without doubt the worst idea you have ever had.

What we should be doing is closing South Oz down. It really is just too expensive for the eastern states, & WA of course, to keep. It's something like a bad dog, that eats your shoes, & attacks the neighbours, more trouble than it's worth, even after allowing for the wine.

For every time someone in Adelaide flushes the toilet, five acres of productive land has to go dry in Qld, NSW or VIC, it is just not worth perpetuating.

Just imagine if it was the capital, & full of bureaucrats, we'd have to close the east down to supply their needs. I have been trying to think of someone we could give the place to, but there's no one I dislike enough.

So sorry mate, Canberra is bad enough, but Adelaide! How could you?

Just a reminder to our WA bretheren that fifty years ago WA was a commercial non entity compared to the eastern states. Then the Commonwealth gave you 7 million pounds to build the Ord, swiftly followed by 30 million pounds to do the up strean and irrigation stuff. Then minerals were discovered, and now you think your too good for the rest. That is akin to a footy supporter believing they scoed the points. WA IS A HOLE IN THE GROUND.

*Just a reminder to our WA bretheren that fifty years ago WA was a commercial non entity compared to the eastern states.*

Hang on, Sonofgloin. 50 years ago WA was a very young state already
then focussed on exports, but the export of iron ore was banned
by the Commonwealth. West Australians were forced to buy crappy,
overpriced Eastern States products for their daily needs. The
removal of tariffs has finally leveled the playing field a bit.

Now that you don't have us as your slave customers anymore, how
well are you doing on global markets? We are still exporting btw.

Haaa hahaha

Love your humour Hasbeen ( :>)

Ooow...... I hope it was humour, and not a serious critique of poor old South Oz!? ( :>|

Noisy Scrub Bird

Hello NSB

Yes I meant minerals and my point was WA and NT have the average mentality of a 10 year old child collectively. Its a pity because it could be something special. They rely on one market and one market is never sustainable .
First lesson you learn in the business world. Many think by threatening and bullying they will get their way. The last good example was their Minister went to Indonesia. He just went:
Tried to bully his way in and no thought given to their culture or policy. So there he sat i his hotel room because NOBODY would take him anywhere- and sat and sat. He did us no favors representing Australia. Nobody likes bullies especially them. Its just their way and they think the ruder they are the more attention they should get.


I am sure there are some lovely people but I refer to their business dealings.
Have a nice evening NSB

<< What improvements we have in the bush, were hard fought for, not by pleading, but by threats and political action. >>

Yabby, do you think this is really any different in WA to the rest of the country?

The same sort of thing happens everywhere. Crikey, back home in north Queensland there has always been a loud voice of discontent about the north being disadvantaged while the southeast corner of Queensland gets looked after to a much better extent.

After nearly thirty years of experiencing this, I’ve come to the conclusion that it is unfounded, or at least not significantly disparate in the north.

<< The Brookton Highway was once so bad, that they had to slow traffic to stop accidents >>

Maybe so but it is great now. Roads are pretty damn good in WA. I’ve just done a trip through the central wheatbelt. There are top quality sealed roads everywhere, with such light traffic use that you might not see a dozen cars in a day. Lots of minor roads are sealed and the unsealed ones appear to all be well maintained. And I remember it being the same in the late seventies when I was botanising throughout the wheatbelt and southwest corner.

I can remember the terrible state of the Bruce and Flinders Highways in north Queensland, not so long ago.

<< there is no reason why WA rural residents should be treated as second class citizens >>

I wonder if they are, or whether it just a matter of some peoples’ perception?

Again, I’ve heard just the same thing in Queensland, about graziers in the Brigalow Belt being second class citizens compared to those in the southeast corner or anywhere on the coast.

There might be some truth to it, but I doubt very much that it is worse in WA. And anyway, in WA, Qld and elsewhere, any differences between rural and urban quality of life are state government issues, or at least to a large extent.

continued

<< smaller democracies invariably function better then large ones >>

This sounds logical, but there are too many factors involved to say that it would be the case for WA. Afterall, the new country, Westralia as I have dubbed it, would still be very large, much larger than New Zealand….and does that country have significantly better democracy than Australia?

As far as state governments go, do the smaller states have better democracies or governments than the larger ones? I don’t think so.

<< Once decision making resides in Canberra, WA gets lost in the political fog >>

The same thing happens at state level. There must be plenty of complaints from all over WA once you get out of the southwest corner, or once you get away from the Joondalup to Dunsborough growth strip, or once you get behind the Darling Range and into the wheatbelt, let alone once you get into the Pilbara and Kimberleys… about decision-makers in Perth forgetting those in the bush.

The secession of WA will do nothing to relieve this. Cutting Canberra out of the picture won't help much. A lot of people in country areas will probably just refocus their anger on decision-makers in distant Perth.

Once again, I’ve heard plenty of this sort of thing in north Queensland.

<< …it would be foolish not to use the threat of secession as a bargaining tool, to make sure
that we get a fair deal >>

Well… perhaps all is fair in the rough world of politics and economics. But if it came to the crunch Yabby, would you really vote for secession, or if you could make the decision unilaterally, would you really go for it?

Ludwig, you can't really judge road traffic in the wheatbelt right now.
Everything has stopped, due to last years drought. Now its
raining again, farmers will reopen their cheque books when they know
that they will get a crop and banks let them spend again. Right
now you simply don't have all those trucks and freight on the road,
the place is like in hybernation.

The road to Hyden, a major tourist attraction, used to be an utter
disgrace. I'm not sure if they have finally done it up now. One
car width bitumin, with high shoulders. When Japanese tourists met
with 50 tonne road trains, oh what a mess. No Ludwig, we don't
have facilities as good as elsewhere.

I would vote for a system where WA gets to make its own economic
decisions, without input from Canberra. So yup, I would vote for
secession tomorrow, if given a chance. I'm sick of Brown, Xenephon,
Wilkie and Co trying to interfere with what we do here. They don't
know what is best for us, so why should they have a say.

Much of the ES economy is now a ponzi scheme of trading houses and
administering one another. Never mind the real world. Even
our PM seemingly is not sure as to what we do here, given her
carbon tax claims.

There are no wise men from the East, just politicians feathering
their own political nests. At least if their nest is in WA,
they will put the State's interests first, not last in the queue.

Yabby:>> Now that you don't have us as your slave customers anymore, how well are you doing on global markets? We are still exporting btw.<<

Yabby the lines from the "good old WA boys" dirge:

Way over west we gave water for cotton
Where corporate greed is not forgotten
Dig away, dig away, dig away Sandgroper land.

Cmon Yabby you have the rationality of a Boer farmer from the old veldt, “I’m all right Johannes” stuff the kaffa. Further that ridiculous statement of praise for the free trade agreements that have seen most manufacturing leave the first world for the second and third is treasonous given it further enpowers the rich over us and the poor sod who went from agri slave to factory slave in the the second and third worlds. As I have said before Yabby, all your statements have a big dose of “no bread, let them eat cake” about them.

Good to talk to you Yabby, it’s been a while.

Yabby:>> I'm sick of Brown, Xenephon, Wilkie and Co trying to interfere with what we do here. They don't know what is best for us, so why should they have a say.

There are no wise men from the East, just politicians feathering their own political nests.<<

Yabby WA's succession is out of the question, but I would support a WA takeover of Australia and overthrow of the treasonous swine who now decide Australia’s future, now that is a plan. Is Barnett ready for the top job if we can get the ball rolling? See Yabby, you can have your cake and eat it too.

Ludwig, it started out as a tongue in cheek bit, but half way through I started to see that quite a bit was getting very close to the truth. So, like you, I'm not quite sure any more.

I used to like going to South Oz for the F1 race at Mallala each year. The worst part was cleaning the bitumen off the car, when you got home. The track would start to melt at least one day of the meeting, & the stuff stuck everywhere.

The best thing about visiting Adelaide, realising how lucky you are that you don't have to live there, as you fly out.

Gee Gloin, you are worse than me, poor Ludwig won't know who is serious & who isn't.

Just in passing, have you noticed any funny noises on your mobile recently. They tell me you do get them when your phone is being taped.

Ludwig,
Of course your right and not only has QLD had floods but many. Crops have been washed out over and over- roads that are not roads anymore and people have died. There are others who are still living in tents- some still without power water etc.
Roads- what roads in many places. The mount Lindsey highway leading to my farm was closed for months. Bridges are still washed away . In Brisbane city itself complete roads collapsed.

What Senators Xenephon wants ( who would be my choice for PM) is value adding for Australia. What Senator Wilkie and Bob Brown want also is jobs for Australia. They as I are very concerned that we rely more and more on imports. WA is a part of Australia. Yes QLD have mines too. The Australian minerals belong to all Australians.

Our roads and people are i a far worse state than wa and when QLD was pulling more than others QLD people did not say- oh this is just ours. Australia as I said is Australia. We all share the minerals and whatever else.
This is a childish mindset that ought to be taken care of when these people were children. This is why mothers teach children to share their lollies.

KA:>> What Senators Xenephon wants ( who would be my choice for PM) is value adding for Australia.<<

Kerryanne I have no issue with Nick on the whole, a principled man who states the obvious, my only negative regarding Nick is that he has a bit of the "nanny" about him, in some things the individual should be left to make the decision rather than legislature.

The south-west corner of WA, where most of the population reside, is hardly any different to similar places in other parts of Australia. Services and roads are good. The north-west, however, is radically different and from my experience is almost like another country - it has it's own flavour.

(We don't have pokies in this state which is a great thing. People then don't have to make the decision whether or not to get sucked into the black hole. I'm constantly amazed that there is such a debate over pokie control. It's a social blight, but people keep aligning it with some sort of freedom to choose... humans are weird)

*I’m all right Johannes” stuff the kaffa*

Actually Sonofgloin, it was more like "time for you lazy wharfy types
to finally get off your arses and stop bludging on us"

Note our largest imports. Cars- German, French, Korean, Japanese,
hardly slave labour.
Pharmaceuticals- American, Swiss, German, French, British etc.
Aircraft- European, American.
Petroleum- whoever has oil wells, which is not China.

You are going to have to import a great many 7.99$ toasters from
China, to even matter, when a single bottle of a new cancer treatment
can cost 20 Grand.

Yabby:>> Note our largest imports. Cars- German, French, Korean, Japanese, hardly slave labour. Pharmaceuticals- American, Swiss, German, French, British etc. Aircraft- European, American.
Petroleum- whoever has oil wells, which is not China.<<

I'll give you the heads up Yabby. Walk into a supermarket, a clothing store, in fact most retailers of anything, pick ten items at random and see how many are produced in Australia. Pick up the discarded packaging that is strewn around the family Christmas tree and count how many times China appears on the packaging as opposed to any other country of origin, straw man responses are not pertinent Yabby to the holistic scenario.

*Pick up the discarded packaging that is strewn around the family Christmas tree and count how many times China appears on the packaging*

LOL Sonofgloin, so you judge the economy by your Christmas tree :)

Take a look at the import figures to see what we import and from
where in $ terms. You might get a shock, rather then your Xmas
tree method.

If you only buy Chinee products for your family, you are clearly
a cheapskate, Sonofgloin :)

But one of the interesting things which the Japanese Tsunami
showed was how interconnected the world is. Alot of those
production lines, which assemble goods in China, use parts from
all over the world. Some of the most expensive come from high
tech countries like Japan, Germany, Korea, etc, all countries which
train a great many engineers as part of their education systems.
The Americans make huge money out of IP. Perhaps Australians are
simply too lazy and stupid to compete in the real world, because
they had it too good for too long.

First they rode on the sheeps back, now on the miners back as well.

LOL Sonofgloin,

if its ok for our Government to judge the economy by Christmas tree , its ok for you.

We all know that’s one of the biggest ways economy is tallied up.

Don’t worry about Mr misery talking about riding on a sheep back for the rest of us while he still peddles sending sheep alive to have their throats cut to ME.

Hes riding on the back of the sheep all right and directly responsible together with the others for millions of suffering animals

Mr misery then has the Gaul to preach to us about riding on the sheep back.

http://www.stoptac.org/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,print,0&cntnt01articleid=178&cntnt01showtemplate=false&cntnt01returnid=83

Footage and photographs obtained in Kuwait and Bahrain show terrified Australian sheep being manhandled, trussed, thrown, shoved into car boots and lying across the bodies of other bloodied dying sheep on roadsides, before having their throats cut whilst fully conscious. In one incident in Kuwait three Australian sheep were forced into a boot whilst another terrified animal purchased for sacrifice was transported to a private premises chained by his neck to the winch of a tow truck.
Here is our person that we had – I have footage here of kids being taught to pull these animals eyes out laughing and all the animals screaming being tortured to death in front of each other.
http://www.livexports.com/eyewitness.html

Nothing has changed since then & in fact got *worse.

This! Is what I call riding on the sheep’s back . These people who send them their or support this cruelty are truly evil and sadistic.

LOL Hasbeen.

Well Adelaide is in the middle and I thought it might make the WA residents feel a bit less left out. (wink)

And it might help boost the SA economy rather than shut it down.

Adelaide does always seem to struggle a bit.

Gawd Gertrude, next you'll be expecting farmers to come to your
house and cook your food for you. If you are unable to buy livestock
and slaughter them efficiently here, then it just has to be
done offshore I am afraid. Which goes to prove me point that
city slickers like yourself really don't have much talent at all.

Its just all wah wah.

Under what circumstances would you support WA secession?

Good question Ludwig. Thanks for asking.

Well Luddie old mate, a sustainable society would have to be central to the plan. If we in the west were to suddenly acquire a very green government, that was totally oriented towards achieving sustainability quickly, with a stable population as a fundamental part of it…. and if the other states and the federal govt refused to do the same and insisted that rapid population growth continued in WA, then I’d be pushing very hard for secession.

Wow, good stuff. I agree completely Lud, you old ratbag greenie!

Then, after Westralia has demonstrated that it can indeed have a sustainable society with a high level of affluence and a steady state of repair of our damaged natural environment… and after Eastralia has agreed that it is the way to go, we should unsecede!

We could also then recommence population growth, at a low rate, if it can be accommodated within the sustainability paradigm.

Very good Luddie. But um, you might want to seek a bit of help about this talking-to-yourself business. It’s really creepy!

Yabby,
Thankyou Yes , I am busy working on that right now thanks for your interest.Got rid of the last one he burnt the toast. Yup will be plenty available too in the next few years after that little stunt they tried to pull. Cat got your tongue has it.
If they thought they would get away black mailing the Prime Minister with shooting cattle they were mistaken.
Then they say they want to run their own states ``priceless``.
What’s the food like in goal btw
I should at least return the same interest.

Ludwig, as a botanist you would have a copy of Darwin's Origin
of Species on your shelf somewhere. Go back and read it again :)

Humans will keep breeding and stretching things to the limit,
until calamity happens on a mass scale, the whole lot crashes
with a thud from ecosystems totally out of balance etc.

I have long ago accepted that fact and nothing that I have
seen from human history convinces me that humans evolved to be
above nature. So be it, its not worth having sleepless nights
over, best you just enjoy the moment and your holiday!

Hwaaaaw!

How depressing.

( :>(

Yabby:>> LOL Sonofgloin, so you judge the economy by your Christmas tree :)Take a look at the import figures to see what we import and from where in $ terms. You might get a shock, rather then your Xmas
tree method.<<

Yabby I did not have to look, I have the 2010 Import figures rolling in my head, in $ terms as you say, in millions. Top 5 importers:

China
39,781
United States
19,278
Japan
16,689
Singapore
11,178
Thailand
11,627

China top import by segment:
1.Food
2.Eletrical
3.Textile
4.Footwear

USA top import by segment:
1.Materials handling equipment
2.Medicinal equipment
3.Excavating equipment
4.Telecommunications equipment

I the past seven years, exports to China have more than doubled, while imports have risen by 90%. We are not getting richer from what we grow and dig because we import everything we need to survive daily, and that is because of the FREE TRADE agreements that have torn down our protection tariffs. I know you do not see that Yabby, but I know you do not see many things, I forgive your ignorance knowing that it is fostered by the short term monetary gain that this one sided trade arrangement has brought to a few, such as yourself.

Yabby let me tell you what a two speed economy really is in practical terms. When the largest returning segment of the economy employs substantially less people than the smaller returning portion of the economy you have disproportionate wealth distribution and a two speed economy.

Merry Xmas in July Yabby.

On the front page of the Weekend West I see an article titled ‘$190 000 forklift drivers’.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/news/9942034/pilbara-workers-reject-190-000-pay-offer/

< Forklift drivers, crane operators and other waterside workers in the North West have gone on strike, rejecting proposed salary packages of more than $190 000 a year.>

<They claim the pay offer does not adequately cover the cost of living in Karratha.>

Wow! I’d kill for a package like that, as I’m sure most people outside of the mining industry and associated businesses would.

Now, THAT is a two-speed economy if ever there was one!

http://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/fs/aust.pdf

There ya go Sonofgloin, all nicely classified for you by Dfat.

China was responsible for a mere 18.7% of our imports.

Your claim of 9 out of 10 is clearly ridiculous.

Our main imports, petroleum, passenger cars, medicines, telecoms
parts etc.

We exported 20 billion more then we imported.

You as a consumer got bargain after bargain from those
competitive manufacturers around the globe. If that stuff
was all made here, your cost would triple, your quality would
be crap. What a lucky chap you are to live in a free trade
economy! Just see how most Australians agree with me,as they
vote every day with their wallets. Your high standard of living,
one of the highest in the world, is in fact due to free trade.

Give it up Ludwig, for every forky on $4K a week I can give you a 1000 young Aussie in the service industry on $400 per week. Using exceptions to the norm as a counter is a dishonest response, because other than a manifestation of human greed it is not a marker to a trend that has any impact on the whole. next time put some thought behind it Luddy.

Just on the subject of relativity what of the top layers of management who's contracts equate to hourly rates of $5K and more, no mention of them. Or are they not AS obscene as the forkies are for grabbing a bit of the not well shared out pie.

Yabby:> China was responsible for a mere 18.7% of our imports. <<

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLO

Ludwig, Sonogloin has no idea what is going on in the West. He
can't think beyond his little patch of Sydney.

Sonofgloin, clearly you think that the Department of Foreign
Affairs and Trade don't have a clue as to what Australia imports.
Or you simply did not bother to read their data, which I posted
the link to.

Well stick to your Xmas tree economics. As I always say, whatever
gets you through the night, old son :)

Dfat:>> Australian merchandise trade with China, 2010:
Exports to China (A$m):
58,340
25.3%
Imports from China (A$m):
39,249
18.7% <<

http://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/fs/chin.pdf

Yabby the percentage you trotted out is a percentage against an aspect of GDP, not the percentage of imports that China has in our market against all imports. The link you provided is pertinent to exports just a portion of the 2010 GDP that in total ran into 1-2 Trillion.

Follow me on this Yabby:
Our total exports to everywhere was $211 Billion for 2010.
Our exports to China were $58 Billion, 25% of that $211 Billion for 2010.
Our imports from China were $39 Billion, which is 18% of the $211 Billion for 2010.

Yabby, you can’t use that figure in regard to your application, which is, out of all we import what percentage comes From China. Our retail sales run at about $18 Billion a month, but this figure is deceptive because it includes all gambling, lotteries, and a host of domestic services. So the figure of product sales per month is mentionable percentage below the $18 Billion. Given that our export numbers and domestic sales numbers are just about in tangent this means that for two and a half months of the year we are exclusively buying imported Chinese product given we import $40 Billion worth of stuff.

I toned down the tech terms as I am a slick citier and you are but a man of the earth as you said.

*Yabby the percentage you trotted out is a percentage against an aspect of GDP, not the percentage of imports that China has in our market against all imports.*

Not so, Sonofgloin, please sharpen your calculator :)

Total GDP was 1.45 trillion, which includes everything.

Exports 231 billion, China was 25.3% = 58 billion
Imports total was 210 billion, China 18.7% of that = 39 billion.

I rounded the numbers up or down for simplicity.
Import and export figures are usually calculated as FOB,
ie price on the wharf.

Any money earned on any imports, between the wharf and the customer,
which is often most of the profits, stays right here in Australia.

The thing is, production of any goods is becoming more and more
mechanised. Robots are becoming the norm. I saw a a report some
time ago in a business publication, where a company in America had
the production of fridges down to 1 human hour of labour per unit,
the rest is automated. So we have larger capital investment in
much larger factories, working 24/7, producing cheaper and better
products. Consumers benefit. But you cannot justify that kind of
capital investment, for a tiny market like Australia. You would
be back to making things by hand, which would make them unaffordable
to consumers, who are the main beneficiaries of globalisation

<< next time put some thought behind it Luddy. >>

Sheesh Soggy, you’re a piece of work aren’t you!

I simply read something in the newspaper and mentioned it here. And gee, guess what? It appeared to be supporting what you were saying.

<< …for every forky on $4K a week I can give you a 1000 young Aussie in the service industry on $400 per week. >>

Yes, exactly!

Those in the likes of Karratha and the mining towns are making the big bucks. Most people doing the same sort of jobs outside of the mines and associated ports are making far less.

So I say again - THAT is a two-speed economy if ever there was one!

You wrote:

<< ...let me tell you what a two speed economy really is in practical terms. When the largest returning segment of the economy employs substantially less people than the smaller returning portion of the economy you have disproportionate wealth distribution and a two speed economy >>

Yes, basically!

So why’d you go and jump down me blimmin throat then matey??

Sorry Luddy, I must have been dreaming at the time, I misunderstood your premise.

Alright Soggy. No worries. Thanks.

I may have missed it but I haven't read any reference to:

"Whereas the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and under the Constitution hereby established:"

The word 'indissoluble' must have some meaning.