I was drawn to a story in the press this morning

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/most-workplace-bullying-claims-fall-short-20110723-1hub7.html

"THE number of Victorians claiming to have been bullied at work has skyrocketed, with complaints to WorkSafe Victoria more than doubling to 6000 in the past year.

But no action was taken on the vast majority of complaints, as most fell well short of what constitutes workplace bullying"

and

"WorkSafe's executive director of health and safety, Ian Forsyth, believes the huge surge in complaints can largely be attributed to greater awareness about bullying"

and

"Of the 6000 bullying complaints made to WorkSafe, only 10 per cent were referred to the bullying response unit. Of those referrals, one in 10 resulted in an inspector visiting a workplace to conduct further inquiries."

and

"''I think what we are seeing is that the term bullying is being used quite loosely in the community now in many instances to describe something that has 'gone against me' or 'that I haven't liked' or something that 'I haven't wanted to do','' says Mr Forsyth."

I agree with Mr Forsyth and I think the problem is much wider than just the misuse of the "bullying" complaints process. A similar burgeoning of claims for protection under DVOs/AVOs has occurred, with few tested in court, since most are "accepted without admission". In my experience, there is enormous pressure on alleged perpetrators to do so, with little concern for the veracity or seriousness of claims and enormous support offered to "victims".

In schools, we see children being taught that if they don't like what someone says they should complain to a teacher and we have children being given detentions and suspensions for "bullying" that might be no more than a schoolyard shove. The number of suspensions is at an all-time high per capita.

It seems to me that we are creating a culture in which claiming victimisation is the first step for anyone wanting to cause trouble for someone else. How did the nation that proudly sent its sons to Gallipoli end up as such a bunch of pansies?

Remember repetitive strain injury?

That was one of the popular fads for trying to rip off the company, for a while.

Antiseptic:>> How did the nation that proudly sent its sons to Gallipoli end up as such a bunch of pansies?<<

The Fabians infiltrated our scholastic and community organisations that is how Antiseptic.

The most perceptive comment on bullying I have encountered comes from a Professor Groucho Marx:
"Hey you big bully, leave that little bully alone".

We could reduce the incidence of bullying if our law allowed us to reciprocate.

Hi Individual,
Good Point. There is a difference, for example, of the (moderate) apprentice initiation pranks, and those that turn into utmost humiliation. I reckon that if someone bullies, they should expect immediate retaliation. (Eye for an Eye etc.).Bullies, are usually made from the cowardly type, that run back to mummy after they have been bullied themselves.
NSB
PS, I don't condone violence of any sort, but usually the bullies hunt in groups, safety in numbers trick. What goes around etc.etc.

The fact is bullying does go on but it is perhaps not as pervasive as responses to awareness campaigns might indicated. However, if people don't complain these bullying behaviours continue to be rewarded.

The first port of call should ideally be internally and if there is no positive response by management sometimes approaches to external agencies are all that is left.

That is what the regulations are there for, if the complaints are bogus or stretching the definitions of bullying, then clearly the system is working if only one in 10 of these complaints are being formally investigated.

It is true that the bullying tag might be applied too liberally as with any allegation, but hopefully that is what people vested with the responsibility of sorting out the facts are qualified and trained to do.

Fact is though in many organisations, particularly government departments, complaints about bullying are often ignored, especially if the back story relates to issues that might embarrass a department or its senior managers. Much better just to whitewash the issues and diminish the claims of the complainants.

AFL & RL are full of bullying & this is actually promoted to no limit. Any contact sport is a form of bullying where the participant is too stupid to realise that he is being exploited by a much smarter although very cowardly businessman who rakes in the money..

I think the real take home message is that if you give people unrealistic expectations based on over-broad definitions, you end up with a stack of frivolous complaints. Less than 0.1% of the complaints received were even deemed worthy of serious investigation or any form of action at all! If you listen to the victimologists, however, you'd swear that the Australian workplace was crawling with abusive bosses and terrified employees.

It's this expansion of definitions that is the problem.

Beats the hell out of me why adults aren't capable of dealing with bullying themselves. And yeah, I agree that a percentage are for personal gain.

Antiseptic

Your correct but remember we have ALP unions - jobs for the boys.

Somebody of course has to investigate to bogus claim- speaking of wasting $

cheers

Dear Antiseptic,

As far as bogus claims of victimisation of bullying? I guess there will always be people who will abuse the system, the same
as there are people who will be genuine cases of bullying. Bullying does go on. And should be taken seriously. As Pelican pointed out - bogus claims will be found out by people trained and experienced in this area. I'm not talking about simple conflicts between people. Bullying as I understand it - is when people repeatedly and intentionally use words or actions against someone,
to cause distress or risk to their wellbeing. When a youngster commits suicide after being bullied at school - it's something that simply can't be ignored or brushed aside as bogus. The same goes for
an office worker - who doesn't know who to turn to - and the problem is ignored at work because no one wants to be known as a trouble-maker
or to "rock the boat." There are all sorts of people in this world -
and some unfortunately - are in positions of influence over others - who enjoy making others feel helpless. Serious problems do exist.
Not everyone is a bogus victim. But we should recognise the fact
that if a report is made - it should be investigated - until the truth
is know. Otherwise, we discourage genuine cases of abuse and bullying
not to be reported. And I'm sure that's something nobody would want to see happen.

Lexi, yes, bad things do happen, but legislating for the general populace based on extreme events only leads to bad outcomes. Let's face it, out of the 6000 people who were sufficiently vexed to complain, 5940 didn't meet the criterion to even be investigated. There seems to be no data in the story on whether any action was taken against any of the 60 or so accused who were investigated.

Nizkor calls the argument that you put forward an Appeal to Emotion
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html.

Given the efforts being made to broaden the definition of violence in the Family Law Act to include:
"4AB Definition of family violence etc.

15 (1) For the purposes of this Act, family violence means violent,
threatening or other behaviour by a person that coerces or controls
a member of the persons family (the family member), or causes
the family member to be fearful."

Apparently 99.9% of complainants to Worksafe thought they had cause to think they'd been bullied while an objective assessment showed otherwise. The FLA doesn't even bother with such fripperies as objectivity, relying entirely on the "victim's" claim to have been caused to be fearful. No guidance is provided as to what might be required to sustain this claim, although in line with State Legislation, I'm sure there will be none at all. IOW, it effectively presents reverse onus of proof to the accused and I have to say that I don't think that any such proof could be provided, since it's hard to prove you didn't say something when there are no witnesses. Certainly when I was faced with a DVO application from the ex I could not effectively refute the nebulous claims made and never tested, so after spending 7 months fighting it, I accepted without admission.

It is important to remember something that seems to have been forgotten by the victimologists and indeed the lawmakers - people tell lies for advantage sometimes, even the ones who claim to be victims.

pelican

Thats a whistle blower and yes they DO need a system and thee is none

We have more people crying discrimination- bullying . Its not our way but its creeping in. I agree with Anti 100% on this one.

$ waster

Dear Antiseptic,

I don't quite understand what your point is. Are you
suggesting that because of the ones that do abuse
the system - we don't have laws in place to protect
the genuine victims - or what are you offering that
we do about genuine victims? We all realise that people
do abuse all kinds of systems - that's human nature,
but what's your point then - what are you suggesting we
do about it - especially the genuine victims?

'Beats the hell out of me why adults aren't capable of dealing with bullying themselves'.

I was bullied in a workplace (public service) and boy, I tried to handle it myself. I approached the bully gently asking for reconciliation; I asked colleagues who witnessed it (and averted their eyes) for assistance - after all it was damaging the teamwork; I talked privately to more senior staff, and to the human resources people, and when all that failed, I documented the events in detail and finally made a formal complaint. I was attacked by management for having the temerity to put it in writing. The bully was supported by management and promoted. My contract was not extended and I was threatened with legal action if I said anything publicly. 'You just want to be a whistle-blower!' which was slightly contradicted by the efforts I had made to resolve it quietly.

I could see that if I took any more action, I would be the one whose name would be blackened, so I cut my losses and got on with my life. (Only one person actively helped me, a doctor who put it all into perspective and made me laugh about it; but my seeking help from him was actually held against me - proves you were the one with the 'problem'.)

I think bullying is pretty widespread and that many people just put up with it or get out. It's great that more people are taking action, it's a very brave thing to do (when you're bullied and no-one will help, it really knocks your self-confidence) especially when standing up and speaking out attracts accusations of grand-standing or being after money.

PS I am sure that my situation would have been assessed as a 'bogus claim' in an investigation: the management would have totally denied it, claimed I'd imagined it, or that it was my own fault, or I was mentally unbalanced etc etc. No-one would have validated my complaints, even though others witnessed the bullying.

Lexi, if there are less than 60 genuine bullying victims out of 6000 who made complaints then the problem is insignificant and at the risk of being accused of blaming the victim, I suspect that at least some of those were cases in which there was a personality clash and one of the parties should have simply found another job. It is impossible to legislate to make people like each other, nor is it possible to legislate to make people less sensitive to perceived slurs. It is certainly possible to legislate it a trivial matter to complain about such slurs though and that is what has happened here, with the results seen.

The next question is to do with what sort of bullying behaviour was determined to have occurred. If it was just a case of a boss being in a bad mood and saying something inappropriate then it's hardly especially serious and most bosses I've worked for would have done that any number of times.

I'd suggest that this constant growth of "zero tolerance" Nannyism has not lead to a reduction in anything, but has most certainly lead to an increase in the number of busybodies who earn a crust out of wagging their fingers.

In my view it's quite simply not in accordance with Australian values and not conducive to the creation of a society of mutual respect between its members. How can I respect you if I have to walk on eggshells around you for fear of being shopped to "The Authorities"? Do you reckon we could have a genuine discussion as peers about anything there's any controversy over?

Cossomby, see above. the fact that your co-workers took the other party's side would tend to indicate you simply weren't popular among that group, while your "bully" was. Ask yourself why that might be so.

Dear Lexi,
Bullying takes on many forms, the thing that I cannot come to terms with is that we hear Mothers of school kids who are bullied on facebook and mobile phones, and that 'something' should be done....the answer is both simple and obvious, turn the phone and the computer off, and/or change the phone number and get off facebook, do we really need to change peoples nappies for them?
But I acknowledge, as usual, yours and the rest of the posters thoughtful posts.
NSB

'at the risk of being accused of blaming the victim'

Oh please don't. I cant bear to look. There is no worse crime one could be accused of. Aside from a 'denier' I suppose.

The first initiative of the anti-bullying program was to convince people they were being bullied...

It's OK Houllebecq, my dog is trained to attack anybody carrying a clipboard on sight. I guess I'll have to lock him up around census time...

You may recall I related a story of my daughter a little while ago, who missed a heap of school last year due to her mother choosing to take her to attend "counselling". When I asked my daughter what she was having such a big problem with that she needed this extensive "counselling" her answer was "I didn't know I needed it until I went". Naturally, as a 14 year old girl, an adult prepared to listen uncritically and individually to one expressing pubescent angst for an hour or so made her feel pretty special.

Funnily enough, after I rang the counsellor and asked just why it was necesary for mu child to miss school and suggested that I should take her to properly qualified child psychologist if she was so seriously damaged the sessions stopped the next week. I can't imagine why...

Dear Antiseptic,

I can see that we're going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.
I don't view bullying as simply conflict between people (like having a fight) or disliking someone, even though people might bully each other because of conflict or dislike. Bullying to me as I've stated
previously is when someone repeatedly and intentionally uses words or actions against someone to deliberately cause harm and distress and risk to their wellbeing. These actions are usually done by people
who have more influence or power over someone else, or who want to make someone else feel helpless. It goes on - and the fact that so
few cases as you claim, were found to be genuine - shows that the system is working or that there could be a variety of other reasons for why this is the case. As you pointed out - the law is not perfect,
that's why the statue of justice wears a blindfold. However - I stand by the fact that reported cases need to be investigated and not simply brushed aside that people complaining of bullying are simply,
in your words - "pansies," (whatever that means).

Lexi, people who make fun of bullied people have never been bullied themselves, or are bullies themselves.

The fact we have laws for workplace bullying set in place, means we must have had a significant bullying problem in workplaces.

I don't really take any notice of people being negative about such laws, as long as the laws help bully victims get justice.

Why should it matter to anyone else, as long as they aren't bullies that is?

Hi Lexi,

Truth is both sides have valid points. Nobody likes to see anybody picked on or bullied. The best thing i saw a few months ago was the boy who was being bullied at soon finally had enough and dumped the kid bullying him on the ground.

Its also true one unions are involved they create jobs and often encourage people to complain about A B C.

If you meet a real there is only one thing to do- -the same as the young boy did ad walk out- go find another job.

Thats the only language they understand.

Kerryanne

>> The best thing i saw a few months ago was the boy who was being bullied at soon finally had enough and dumped the kid bullying him on the ground. <<

I took care of a bully in a similar fashion at school when I had had enough.

That type of retaliation (physical) does not work in the workplace irrespective of whether the bully is a colleague or one's boss. Reporting to human resources may work in a large corporation where there are sufficient resources, in a small business all the victim can do is leave before the behaviour intensifies. There was a reprehensible case in Melbourne about a year ago, where a young woman was bullied to the point where she suicided.

http://tinyurl.com/3k8amsu

This is a serious and fraught topic.

Antiseptic, as the author of this thread I did not understand the relevance in your last post about your teenage daughter. Did she complain of being bullied at school? The teen years are very difficult where young people are trying to be accepted by their peers and at the same time learning to be independent. She may not need a psychologist but just someone she can trust and talk to.

Ammonite, the relevance of the anecdote about my daughter was twofold: first, she "didn't realise she had a problem until she was told". Once she was told, however, she certainly did develop a problem; her school results plummeted as a result of her mother making her miss school to go to the bogus counselling sessions.

Second, once a serious investigation was proposed, the problem was suddenly no longer important enough to bother with. In other words, the problem didn't really exist at all, just like the 99.9% of complaints about bullying.

Lexi, a workplace exists to perform a function first and foremost. People are not at work to be friends, although it's nice when it happens. If a person is not happy at work they have the right to leave with no questions asked. They do not have the right, it seems to me, to impose their own wish for a particular style of interaction or to demand that their colleagues act in a particular way.

A workplace is not a place for children.

Suze, I went to a boarding school from age 11. I was small for my age and much smaller than the older boys in my grade. My introduction to the place, on the very first day I was there, was to be beaten up by a boy because I put my bag on a bed he considered he had reserved for himself. I didn't complain to a master, because I was terrifed of the repercussions from my peers. Instead, I sucked it up, told myself that this person was dangerous and irrational and resolved to have as little as possible to do with him, which I managed more or less successfully.

Whatever bullying you think you've seen, I can assure you I've experienced a great deal worse. It's precisely because of that experience that I have little tolerance for a broadening of definitions to allow irksomely sensitive little flowers to make trouble for everyone simply becasue they have a "right".

Dear Antiseptic,

A workplace is a place of work. I'm not suggesting anything else. However, every worker has the right to expect a safe environment - and
no one has the right to intentionally and repeatedly use words or actions against someone to continually cause distress. To spread rumours or lies, call names, or intentionally and repeatedly hurt someone. We come to work to work - not to have to put up with some heavy-handed creep who gets their jollies by intentionally and repeatedly trying to make a fellow worker feel helpless. That's just not acceptable behaviour - no matter who it comes from - and your attempts to whitewash it and excuse it doesn't make it acceptable.

Antiseptic

>> Whatever bullying you think you've seen, I can assure you I've experienced a great deal worse. <<

You have no idea what experiences people have had. Seems to me you're claiming to be the "only victim in the village".

I agree with Lexi, bullying is not a one off event it is sustained and continued harassment of a person, often using tactics like belittling or dismissing another person's problems as trivial. Calling people "irksomely sensitive little flowers", for example.

I also find your claim that 99.9% of bullying complaints to be imaginary difficult to believe - could you please provide some evidence, else it appears that you have only allowed for 0.01% as being for yourself and no-one else.

Everyone has a right to a safe working environment, bullies create a toxic workplace.

Is the reason you started this topic an attempt to justify your own behaviour? That is how it is reading. I would prefer to be wrong on this summation of your thread.

Lexi, the fact that less than 0.1% of claims were even seriously investigated shows that people's "feeling of helplessness" is not a good basis to make decisions. Ammonite brought up the case of Brodie Panlock, who was the inspiration for the victimologists in the formulation of this law. She chose to stay for months in a menial job that she could have easily found a replacement for. You'll note the phrase: "she CHOSE to stay". Her suicide was unnecessary and wasteful and tragic not because she was bullied, but because she chose to keep taking it. The results of the Worksafe experiment indicates that there are both very few workplaces as toxic as that one, possibly none and that there are few people who choose to stay if they do encounter one. The fact is that if a workplace is a truly unpleasant environment it will not be able to attract and retain staff and productivity will be poor.

It's interesting that the only people on this thread who've complained about such a toxic workplace culture are public servants, who work in an environment in which lack of productivity is not a fatal condition. In private enterprise it's largely a self-correcting problem - poorly-run business fails.

It also shows that if people are given inflated expectations they will act on those expectations. Who'd have thunk?

Ammonite:"I also find your claim that 99.9% of bullying complaints to be imaginary difficult to believe - could you please provide some evidence, "

From the original post:"Of the 6000 bullying complaints made to WorkSafe, only 10 per cent were referred to the bullying response unit. Of those referrals, one in 10 resulted in an inspector visiting a workplace to conduct further inquiries."

That means that only 1% were actually deemed worthy of being investigated. The Worksafe people didn't mention any convictions at all, which they presumably would proudly do, so it seems safe to assume that the 1 in 10 ratio holds, or possibly there were simply no cases at all that were actually bullying.

As the original post said:""I think what we are seeing is that the term bullying is being used quite loosely in the community now in many instances to describe something that has 'gone against me' or 'that I haven't liked' or something that 'I haven't wanted to do',''says Mr Forsyth.""

I know you're not real good at maths, but I shouldn't think you'd find that too hard to grasp. Perhaps you could ask someone when you're down at Centrelink putting in your form next time...

Antiseptic, Monday, 25 July 2011 11:46:04 AM commented: Cossomby, see above. the fact that your co-workers took the other party's side would tend to indicate you simply weren't popular among that group, while your "bully" was. Ask yourself why that might be so.

Antiseptic, management tried the exact same line as your comment above: that it must be my fault - or just a personality clash. The jobs we were doing were very stressful but if I have a fault it's being too balanced (typical Libra!).

It just wasn't that simple. My co-workers didn't take the bully's side, most avoided the issue, one possibility being they were afraid they'd cop it too. Some supported me privately, but wouldn't publicly. One actually tried to take some action. Other people left the organisation suddenly, and when I asked the Human resources staff if they had had similar problems they were quite defensive and harangued me: 'Who told you that!' (a bit of a giveaway?)

Ultimately it came down the management style of the place (strong favouritism) and the lack of any fair and reasonable process for handling complaints and indeed 'personality clashes'. So, my tendency is to take claims of bullying seriously, since I know how much is stacked against you when you try and handle / fix it.

A sideline: I've been marginally involved (interviewed in an investigation) in two cases involving other people, one before, one after my experience. For obvious reasons, I can't go into details (at least until my posthumous autobiography!) but in neither case did the people involved get justice personally (both careers suffered), although the perpetrators were later dispatched of by the organisations. Both were much worse situations than mine. I've thought that either would make a great novel, except that no-one would believe it

Antiseptic,

>> I know you're not real good at maths, but I shouldn't think you'd find that too hard to grasp. Perhaps you could ask someone when you're down at Centrelink putting in your form next time... <<

I was hoping you would prove me wrong, instead you have set up this thread as an opportunity to insult and bully others.

Won't waste any more of my time here.

Antiseptic wrote: If a person is not happy at work they have the right to leave with no questions asked. They do not have the right, it seems to me, to impose their own wish for a particular style of interaction or to demand that their colleagues act in a particular way.

I disagree. I think it is quite reasonable for workers to expect, indeed demand, that their colleagues act in a particular way: to treat all their co-workers with respect and courtesy, whether they like them or not.

Here are just a few examples:
1. Courteous, non-aggressive communication.
2. No public humiliation and put-downs.
3. No 'accidentally' forgetting to advise individuals of meetings, and then publicly attacking them for not attending.
4. No spreading false and malicious rumours.
5. No plagiarising colleagues' work.

"A workplace exists to perform a function first and foremost" and if the discourteous behaviour of one employee to another damages the efficiency of the team and hinders the work, then the function will not be performed!

I agree Ammonite. Antiseptic is effectively educating us all on the tactics of a true bully. If someone doesn't agree with them, then they should be belittled and ridiculed as being 'stupid'.

It is a common failing for those people who need to put others down to feel good about themselves.

Antiseptic, you have NO idea of my involvement in bullying at the workplace, so best you don't speculate.

Cossomby, thanks for your comprehensive response and I'm glad you didn't take my comments as a personal attack, as they weren't intended that way.

The problem you describe is one that a good boss needs to address one way or the other. If the boss is not a good one, it's all the more reason to find somewhere else, surely, especially if the rest of the staff seem to get along and you don't?

One person's "bullying" is another's "rough good humour" or perhaps just bad manners. There's also workplace cultural differences: what would be perfectly acceptable to thousands of building workers would not at all suit a group of bureaucrats or the ladies at the church opshop. I'm sure the converse also applies.

There are also some people who will take offence at the drop of a hat as a means of asserting control, or as an attempt to elicit a sympathetic response from onlookers.

You can see what I mean by the response of Ammonite. I'm fascinated to see that she also apparently agrees with me that the best thing to do is to leave a place you're unhappy.

Hi Antiseptic. There are certainly differences in work-place styles, but that's got nothing to do with bullying, which can be done by tough blokes or sweet-looking old ladies. I was working with a bunch of engineers, with whom I had no problems. The bully was a bureaucrat. In one of the other cases I mentioned, the victim was an engineer, and the way he was treated was beyond belief - and it had nothing to do with what might be assumed of a blokey workplace.

My experiences challenge the steretypes implied in some of the postings.

Dear Antiseptic,

I am not a public servant. And I certainly don't agree with your stance in this discussion. Any employee is entitled to a safe working environment. And they cannot be expected to perform well and do their job properly if they are not being allowed to do so by someone who's taken it upon themselves to do them repeated harm. It's very simplistic to say - leave the job, or put up with it, it comes with the territory. The fact remains, it is wrong and should not be part and parcel of any job situation. I've worked in both public and private sectors and have witnessed some inexcusable cases of bullying.
You will not be able to convince me - that its something we simply must put up with. That's just a lame and lazy excuse for inaction.

It also means that you're condoning behaviour that has no place in
any civilised society. I don't understand your logic. You started this thread presumably to have a discussion on this topic. I presume people have entered into this discussion in good faith, as I did. Therefore you must expect that not everyone is going to have the wisdom to agree with you.

The reason people may decide to leave - might just be due to the fact that few people like or support an illogical or weak debater. Sound reasoning will conquer unreasonable generalisations every time. If you sound too dogmatic, and you don't listen to the other person's opinion you will be deemed pig-headed and will subsequently be ignored.

Cossomby, I'm not challenging your experiences at all, I'm saying that if that occurred aand the boss did nothing about it, then that is a bad boss and you all had all the more reason to move on.

Can I ask what you expected to happen in response to your problem?

Lexi, see above.

I'm also amused by this:
"I certainly don't agree"
"The fact remains, it is wrong"
"You will not be able to convince me"

etc, etc etc, follwed by:
"If you sound too dogmatic, and you don't listen to the other person's opinion you will be deemed pig-headed and will subsequently be ignored."

Gold!

Dear Antiseptic,

Now you're simply stirring and baiting.

You need to re-read your own posts and the things
you've stated. Perhaps then you may begin to comprehend
how you are being perceived in this discussion.

You've stated things like the foloowing:

1) We are creating a culture in which claiming victimisation is
the first step for anybody wanting to cause trouble for someone
else.

2) How did a nation...end up with such a bunch of pansies?

You refer to -

3) Frivolous complaints.

4) People tell lies for advantage.

5) The problem is insignificant.

6) Zero tolerance - Nannyism.

7) Increae in the number of busybodies who earn a crust
wagging their fingers.

You state that victims of bullying are -

8) Quite simply not in accordance with Australian values
and not conducive to the creation of a society of mutual
respect (sic) between its members.

9) You Stated to Cossomby - "the fact that your co-workers
took the other party's side would tend to indicate you
weren't popular among the group, while your "bully"
was..." You have no way of knowing this.
Yet - it never occurred to you that perhaps the
co-workers were intimidated by the bully or that the bully
was the boss.

You claim that -

10) The problem didn't really exist at all - just like
99.9% of complaints about bullying.

11) If a person is not happy they have the right to leave.
That's your answer to the problem.

Then you go and put-down comments -

12) Telling Ammonite to go to Centerlink to put in a form.
That's un-called for.

And there's more but I shan't continue. To most people- it's simply not debating on a mature, intelligent level. I was merely being
polite by stating that you were being pig-headed - it was in response
to your comments which possibly you're not even aware of how they
come across. Which is sad.

Dear me, Lexi, that hit a nerve, didn't it? I shan't bother responding in detail to that...erm...

You haven't at any stage tried to refute my reasoned statement of the real prevalence of bullying in Victorian workplaces. Neither has Suze, neither has Ammonite and neither has Cossomby, who has at least engaged on something other than the level of a spoilt child.

I'll repeat the point: 6000 claims made - about 10% worth passing to the abuse response unit - of those about 10% worth investigating further - of those, some unknown portion, but presumably less than 100%, were shown to involve actual bullying.

Sadly you, Suze and Ammonite give us a good picture of why there were so many made and so few that were real.

Dear Antiseptic.

No that did not hit any sort of nerve with me. I was merely responding to your earlier post in an attempt to hold up a mirror to you of your pig-headed behaviour. As for your continued claims of
bullying reports not being "real," I suggest that you do a bit more
research and Google the subject further. You will find that the Australian Institute of Criminology has statistics and facts on covert and cyber bullying. There's further links on school bullying along with bullying statistics - and much, much more - all indicating just how serious the problem is in this country. The following website may also help to clarify things for you:

http://www.know-bull.com/factsnstats.html

Lexi, if you'd bothered to get down off your high chair and read that link you quoted, you'll find it supports my contention that the problem is self-limiting. If businesses with bullying bosses are really losing $6billion a year, how long do you reckon they'll stay open? But I don't actually believe the link since it's to a advocacy website

The Victorian figures, which are not "estimations" show that genuine bullying is rare, but problems with personnel are not. Most of the complaints received about bullying were to do with other issues. 99.9% of the claims, in fact. If bullying is genuinely so common, then it is being dealt with effectively internally, because few of the people complaining to Worksafe have anything genuine to complain about.

As the original post noted: ""WorkSafe's executive director of health and safety, Ian Forsyth, believes the huge surge in complaints can largely be attributed to greater awareness about bullying""

The "report" cited on that page you linked to says on it's title page

"Prepared 30th May 2010 by Know Bull! (Australia) To support ‘Workplace Bullying Awareness Month’
© 2010"

Great reference... Did you skip the lessons on research when you were learning to stack books?

BTW Lexi, the report was exceptionally authoritative for one of these advocacy things, since it was based on a survey of a whole 54 respondents. It also actually acknowledges "that the survey was conducted from among the visitors to the Know Bull! website and not a scientific survey administered by a professional survey company."

Yes, I was shocked too when I saw such candour, but I'm sure the staff member responsible has experienced some "bullying" and won't let it happen again...

Dear Antiseptic,

The art of reasoned, intelligent argument is a skill
not easily acquired. Arguments are something we all
confront at some time and it is beneficial to follow
a few steps to emerge the victor. No matter how petty
the gripe it is possilbe to give the impression of
being the superior debater.

The first point is always to argue in a logical manner.
Sound reasoning will conquer unreasonable generalisations
every time. For instance if arguing about bullying don't
say, " all victims are liars," or "the problem doesn't exist," or use derogatory terms like - "pansies," that makes you
appear to be arguing on an emotional level - not a mature
intelligent one. A more effective approach would be a
subtle hint that some victims may sometimes abuse the system. This
response has more chance of winning you points.

I won't go into all the details here but it is imperative to
always know your topic. Do your research from more than one
source and above all else do quote statistics (real or
imagined) this gives the element of authenticity to your
opinions.

The final point is to at all times remain calm. Don't stoop to
personal insults. Tempting as it may be. This makes you appear irrational. And appear as a heavy-handed creep - ending up on someone's - "to ignore list." No likes
or supports an abusive, illogical or weak debater. Argue to win.
Then you'll have better success in your future discussions and you will be taken more seriously.

Good Luck!

Lexi <"This makes you appear irrational. And appear as a heavy-handed creep - ending up on someone's - "to ignore list." "

Lol Lexi :)

I admire your tenacity when dealing with 'creeps'.
I doubt anyone ever effectively bullied you anywhere!

I, for one, will take note of your suggestions for rational discussions or arguments.

Cheers,
Suze.

There are two separate issues emerging here.

The first in the idea that awareness campaigns (and incidents highlighted in the media, some involving suicide) may lead to an over-reporting under the banner of bullying. If this is Antiseptic's concern I am not sure he need stress too much. Clearly the bodies that manage these complaints are making draw-the-line judgements based on those figures quoted above.

While there is an argument that some level of auto-suggestion may lead to over-reporting, it does not diminish the need for appropriate action for legitimate and serious complaints. There is not much one can do if the bully is the owner, best just to leave, however in larger organisations it is not satisfactory for the bullies just to continue to reap their havoc on others.

Up until recently bullying was largely ignored in the media. Prior to that, smarter organisations realised serious bullying as ultimately impacting on profits and efficiencies. Bullying is not conducive to good business on any level.

Bullying is not the boss just asking you to do something even if the request was a bit terse. Poor social skills does not necessarily a bully make. Most bullies suffer from an inferiority or inferiority/superiority complex and this can often be offset by approaching those sort of people in a non-threatening way or showing that their manner is not acceptable in your own responses depending on the situation. That is not the same as excusing woeful behaviour, but it is a self-help approach.

Certainly the time and money spent on these cases should be dedicated to the serious incidents.

There is much talk of resilience these days but not much evidence of it - maybe that is why there is so much talk about it - people also need to toughen up a bit and employ skills in dealing with more difficult people. They are everywhere. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't - that is life but bullying should not be tolerated. Let's face it most people, if they are honest, know exactly what bullying is and what it is not.

Speaking of bullying- this is a perfect example and I do not see any reason Antiseptic should be referred to in such manner.
Lol Lexi :)

*I admire your tenacity when dealing with 'creeps'.*suzeonline

However, I do expect him to leave the threat- if it upsets him, turn the TV off etc if there is something upsetting.

Dear Lexi,

6 billion is a lot & unions do encourage it. Jobs for the team.

May I ask you a question-

You own a law firm- and things are pretty quiet ok.

Your struggling to keep jobs for your staff because your really soft and dont want to put anybody off.

You have 3 girls sitting reading books- You ask them to from now on pls vac your own office and empty the waste basket.

They say NO! its not in our work description. Your angry and you dont like the attitude. You reply I am paying you $$ an hour and your not working anyyway-- so pls do as I ask

She says no- rushes off to complain about be bullied.

What do you feel about a position such as that ?
Cheers Lexi

Here is another one Lexi

Just as I was writing to you I heard the news-

A woman is suing her boss because she hurt herself on a business trip while having sex. The boss paid wages + accommodation for her to do her job. While she was away she met up with a male person and took him into the accommodation her boss paid for her. She was injured during the course of performing sex. Now shes suing her boss.

I fully agree a real bully should be got rid of but you see often its the staff bullying the boss as well.

Goodnight.

Pelican:"Clearly the bodies that manage these complaints are making draw-the-line judgements based on those figures quoted above."

Yes, they are, but at 6000 complaints annually they are dealing with120 such baseless complaints a week. How much wasted time and effort is going intopandering to spoilt brats who expect the boss to bend over backwards to be nice and don't want to take any responsibility for their own behaviour?

Pelican:"While there is an argument that some level of auto-suggestion may lead to over-reporting,"

6000 complaints made, only 60 worth even investigating. I think the case for over-reporting is about as rock-solid as it is possible to be.

All the rest is baseless assertions. How do you know what sort of personality a "bully" may have? I suggest to you that under the pressure of dealines and so on many people become stressed and lose the social niceties. Normal people, normal behaviour. sometimes it is actually important that something happens right now, as unimaginable as that is for some here (and no, I'm not referring to you Pelican, you've explained your own background extensively) and when that happens words get short sometimes.

The site that Lexi gave is an absolute classic of victimologist propaganda, the like of which I've rarely seen. I'll do a couple of extracts for the amusement of all over the next couple of posts.

Pelican:"There is much talk of resilience these days but not much evidence of it "

And you've nailed it. That was the point of my original post, but the thread has been sidetracked by those desperate to be victims, proving the point, I think.

As Kerryanne points out too, the "mobbing" behaviour that the "gang of three" so often indulge in is classic bullying and I reckon any workoplace any of them worked in would be toxic: full of snide remarks and backbiting and shifting alliances. Just like my daughter's grade 10 class really.

Kerryanne, your example is far too sensible, which measn it'll be ignored.

Lexi psoted a link to a site called "Know Bull", which she prefers to the Worksafe Vitoria data. On that site is a link to a survey they conducted among some 54 visitors to the site in 2009. That survey appears to form the basis for their claims about bullying. The site is an advocacy site set up to raise awareness about bullying. It acknowledges its survey "is not scientific" or "by a professional research organisation".

The worksafe data was based on all complaints to the Department last year, some 6000 or so, according to the Department, which is about double that of the previous year. Also according to the department, the major cause of such an increase was "increased awareness of bullying".

So let's examine the data Lexi likes. Firstly, let's have a look at what they consider to be "bullying".

Intimidating behaviour

Humiliating behaviour

‘Public’ displays of bullying behaviours

Decisions constantly undermined

Threatening behaviour

Verbal abuse

‘Mobbing’ i.e. the coercion of others into a bullying ‘gang up

Character assassination

Constant ‘nit-picking’

Predominantly ‘private’ displays of bullying behaviours (behind closed doors)

Changes to working conditions i.e. pay drop, removal of privileges

Constant criticism of your work/ability to do your job

False accusations/lying

Malicious gossip, innuendo, or rumours spread

Yelling

Excluded from work emails and meetings

Ridicule

Intimidation, threats, or other behaviour that extends beyond work e.g. home environment

Theft of ‘credit’ i.e. where the bully takes credit for the work of another

Interference with ability to perform job e.g. ‘sabotage’, ensuring failure

Undeserved work evaluations

Overt threats about ongoing employment

Amending/adding work tasks that aren’t covered in your job description

Invasion of privacy (mail opened, email abuse, office search without prior knowledge/consent

Cancelling of holidays, or denial of leave

So what does Workcover say most of the complaints were about? That's right: "'I think what we are seeing is that the term bullying is being used quite loosely in the community now in many instances to describe something that has 'gone against me' or 'that I haven't liked' or something that 'I haven't wanted to do','' says Mr Forsyth."

The report gives some characteristics of bullies and victims, based once again on their little survey.

"When a workplace bully is called on to explain their actions they invariably use a variety of strategies to evade accountability such as: feigning victim hood, counterattack, and denial – by either flat out refusing to admit to their behaviour, or stating they didn’t know what they were doing. However, workplace bullies also excel at deception, compulsive lying, and manipulation. They have a clear understanding of the difference between right and wrong – they just choose not to conform to socially acceptable standards of behaviour. Workplace bullies don’t bully simply because they don’t know what they’re doing, or worse – just ‘doing their job’. Bullying is behaviour…and behaviour is choice. It’s no different to the molester who chooses to molest, the abuser who chooses to abuse, or the rapist who chooses to rape. Bullies bully, because they choose to bully."

So, in a nutshell, bullies are sociopaths to a woman, according to this site. I say woman, because their little survey found that most "bullies", based on ther criteria, are women. I don't necessarily agree, but there you go.

As for "targets"

"Question 21: How would you describe the work ethic and personality traits of the ‘target’ prior to being targeted?"
Skilled
Hard working
Truthful
Very competent
Intelligent
Professional
Ethical
Independent
Shy and/or very quiet
Very friendly
Fair/just
Well respected
Admired
Strong
Self-assured
A loner
The office "nerd"
Other: including helpful, kind thoughtful
Unprofessional
Loathed by others
Tardy
Incompetent
Unfriendly
Dishonest"

Unsurprisingly, not one of the respondents saw themselves as having one of the final 6 charateristics...

So, Lexi, as a concerned voter and a friend of genuine victims I'm sure you'll be in touch with Know Bull to express your concern at their contribution to the false perceptions that have caused so much waste.

Dear Kerryanne,

A couple of things. Firstly Thank You for the two examples that
you've given me. However neither qualify as bullying. As Pelican pointed out - there seems to be two different discussions going on here.

Right from the very beginning
in my first posts I made it quite clear that there are people
who will try to abuse the system - that's part of human nature.

When talking about bullying however - I was not referring to
a "one of," conflict scenario at work, or elsewhere.

Tony Mellington a health psychologist who's been utilised by WorkSafe Victoria under the Occupational Health and Safety Act defines
bullying as:

1) Repeated, unreasonable, behaviour toward an employee or group of
employees that creates a risk to health and safety.

2) It is enduring and repetitive in nature.

3) Inappropriate and aggressive.

3) Results in physical or psychological distress.

This is the behaviour that is a serious problem that most of us feel
needs to be addressed and should not be brushed aside. However you don't have to take my word for it simple do a bit of research and Google the information for yourself. There's also sites that list steps in how to handle ordinary conflicts at work that may be helpful - seeing as you're interested in that subject.

A Mananger needs good communication skills and be able to establish healthy boundaries at work. They can be professional and be emphatic and compassionate towards your employees, without crossing the line of becoming their friend. Employees can change their attitude toward their job - it's
all about how they view the situation they're in - and what's fair.

I remember the old joke about a man who worked cleaning toilets at the famous Carnegie Hall in New York. One day a patron asked him -
"You seem intelligent, and you told me the last time I was here that
you've been cleaning these toilets for twenty years. Why don't you get a better job?"

The cleaner smiled, and politely answered, "What, and give up show business?"

Lexi:"neither qualify as bullying"

From the Know Bull site:
"Amending/adding work tasks that aren’t covered in your job description"

"Ridicule"

It appears they are, according to our awareness-raising friends.

As for what the thread is about, right from the very beginning I made it clear that it was about the broadening of definitions. I started the thread, remember?

See "Theft of ‘credit’ i.e. where the bully takes credit for the work of another".

This broadening of definitions stuff is pretty cool, actually, don't you think?

You're such a bully and neither of us knew it! I'll bet if I look back, I can find lots more bullying behaviours from you and the "gang of three". Want to take me on? How many do you reckon I can get?

It's good to se you've come around to the idea that this is a mangement issue primarily. It's only taken about 3 or 4 days, so we're getting better at this communication thing between us.

Anti
"I suggest to you that under the pressure of dealines and so on many people become stressed and lose the social niceties. Normal people, normal behaviour."

I think that is true to an extent and overall people have to be given some leeway where the behaviour is not consistent or overt. This is where social skills come into play, maybe approach the person and say "...you seem to be under some pressure, is there anything I can do to help" as appropriate.

It is important to 'pick your fights'. Much of this is relative, to some people an event might be trivial to others not. In my experience bullies don't target people who stand up for themselves.

The real issue is what should be done about legitimate and serious bullying behaviours? It is not a bad thing that there are now official bodies to deal with these complaints and maybe the reality is in that earnest desire to investigate serious cases, some time will be spent on time-wasters.

The case to which KerryAnne referred about the employee suing her boss because SHE chose to have sex on a work trip beggars belief and it is those sort of cases that make a mockery of these preventative systems sometimes (although this case was not actually about bulying per se) but that does not negate the need for them.

The dangers in becoming too oversensitive, or defining bullying behaviours so broadly (and not in context) means that serious claims of bullying might slip under the radar. In some cases the trivial claims may put legitimate complainants off the process altogether. It happens in other scenarios where people are afraid of not being believed (many men and women don't report rape) and it is entirely possible the same might occur with bullying.

However on balance, it is better there is an avenue of complaint than not, but perhaps there needs to be discussions with would-be complainants early on to advise on their claims and to determine if it is appropriate to continue.

Dear Pelly,

Well reasoned. A pleasure to read.
You've said it all.
See you on another thread

Hi Lexi and Antiseptic

I am guilty as charged Lexi-I admit to rushing in without reading your opening comment. However, the story of the law office was a true one. The staffer was kept on only because the boss felt sorry for her because she’s not had a good life. What took place was really horrible and the boss was the victim. I think its fair to say we will all think of our own experiences when we think of bullies.
Depending which side of the fence you have spent most of your time on. Now as for complaints increasing- the world is getting sad. People don’t treat each other with respect anymore as they did in our parents and grandparents days . It starts with parenting and goes from there.

Tell you what though I almost dropped my coffee when I heard that story on TV. I was in the middle of replying to this thread when this story came on TV. ( I have a TV over the top of my computer

http://www.news.com.au/national/woman-sues-government-after-light-falls-injures-her-in-hotel-room-will-having-sex-on-work-trip/story-e6frfkvr-1226102403584

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-27/worker-suing-after-sex-injury/2812704

I am sorry if this off topic but its something close to my hear. The most disgusting bullying goes on towards our elderly. I had the biggest beefup with Ozcare heads over the way their staff treated my elder neighbour.

The problem is nobody is there to check on their in-house carers . It all started when she got a new girl sent to her. The women/ girl was annoyed when the poor old dear asked her to take her shoes off before walking on her white carpet. ( The other lady always had for three years)

To cut a very long story short the heads when she complained instead of speaking to their staff split her service. They maintained under work place and safety their staff were not allowed to work longer than 90 minutes.

I contacted the Ministers off of WPHS and the head guy said you tell Ozcare- that is manure and I could fertilize my garden with it.

I did just that but they still refuse to fix it for the lady.

So now they have a person come at 8.30 am till 10 then back at 1 to 2 once a fortnight. It really is bullying her.

The other strong influence in AU is 90% of the funding for civil libs etc is coming from Saudi . There has been a big shift in policies .
Antiseptic, This is all part of why wanted work choices but nobody likes to see someone bullied either. Some do need a bit of help but how you sort the wheat from the chaff without spending 6 B- i don’t know This threads winding up and tbo i dont have time to read everything
cheers all & PS be nice guys
cuao

Dear Kerryanne,

Thanks for being you. Always fair, always thoughtful,
always caring. What a big plus for us in this forum.
I've been a witness to some very bad
cases of bullying. We had a colleague at work who took
it upon herself to make it her goal in life to deliberately
look for another colleagues mistakes. And every time she
found a mistake she ran to the boss with it.
This woman made the other lady's life absolutely miserable.
And she didn't let up.
This other lady tried every which way to win this woman
over - to no avail. To make a long story short - it got so
bad that the poor woman ended up having a complete mental breakdown
and ended up being institutionalised. Nothing was done by the company at the time. It was only years later that we
learned there was some small settlement made to the lady's family
by way of compensation. But enough of this misery.
Things do happen. As for the elderly - don't get me started. I know that there's probably some very-good and dedicated staff and carers out there - but some certainly do leave a lot to be desired. I've got a mother-in-law with Alzheimers and a mother with dementia.
It's not easy.

Again, Thanks Kerry.

All The Best,

Lexi,

& Ladies its always a pleasure to chat with - both yourself and the others too. I am sorry what happened to your work mate and no wonder you feel so strongly about it.
If that had been me seeing my work mate picked on I would got myself in trouble.


Whenever you get time open a thread on the elderly if you feel like it and I will be happy to give it as much attention as possible.

I will see you next time Lexi.

Antiseptic - I am shocked!

You opened a thread on bullying & I think the comment above was directed at Ammonite,
**I know you're not real good at maths, but I shouldn't think you'd find that too hard to grasp. Perhaps you could ask someone when you're down at Centrelink putting in your form next time...
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 26 July 2011 11:40:29 AM>>

May I simple say that Ammonite, is one of the most polite posters together with Lexi and Pelican on the site. We are in different paddocks as how to handle some things- but.

Anti- careful you dont win the war but lose the battle. I agree with much of what you and others said- but.

I think video footage in all work places may be a good idea- I know people say privacy etc - but whats the answer .

Ah Kerry, Fraccy and I go 'way back. She's been milking a centrelink benefit for years, so I wouldn't get too exercised on her behalf.

I've offered her truces in the past, but she prefers to try to troll for sympathy, just as she did here. Occasionally she manages to get a bite from people who are not used to dealing with spivs.

She specialises in asking stupid questions that have already been answeered in the thread, so it's not surprising that she gets short shrift.

Lexi, I'm sorry to hear of your friend, but when I mentioned what happened to me as an 11 year old boy, I got a stony silence and some whinging about politeness.

I say you're a hypocrite of the worst sort and a bully to boot. Even worse, you're gutless and hide when called out. Frankly, you're a fraud.

Antiseptic


Now- seriously just some legal advice and then i will give a personal opinion. Regardless or not if a person was milking centreline & had twenty claims- or some other source- a bank for eg:

The law does not lend to favoritism.

Translation

That person ( whether or not) using their real name is entitled to pursue compensation.

All they have to do is prove they are the person posting in the tag name.-

In other words if somebody is a crook milking CL-they are *still entitled to enjoy the same protection of law & sue for damages.

The law may then award *them damages’ & believe it or not that EVEN may include time in prison if it went that way.

So that person might get a smack on the knuckles- but be entitled to sue you- up to one million $ for damages. True.

I am only telling you this because I fear you may be unaware.

If the lady wanted to she’s within her rights to demand your contact details

Are we awake yet?

On a personal note as promised:

Firstly I recall ( so i am sure you knew too) this lady has been ill& in bed for months.

Also, I have never seen you in a thread about environment or concerns of others as I have this lady.
(just an observation)

You have certainly broken forum rules Anti. After a few days you probably will look at what you said and regret it.

I hope your man enough to apologize- but my advice to this young lady would be- careful whom you befriend.

I know* what type of person this poster is Anti.

*A lady with a brain and a good heart.*


Sorry you’re so bitter dear but from where i sit we found the 1% at least on this thread.

If the "lady" wanted my contact deatails, all she would have to do is ask Graham Y.

I'm sure you're a very sweet person, but I'm afraid Fraccy is a rather nasty type, much given to all sorts of behaviour that you'd not tolerate from one of your blue heelers.

I'd not waste too much time on her when there are far more deserving animals around.

Here's another "victim"

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/labor-turns-its-back-on-victim-nixon/story-fn59niix-1226103756116

So now the Police Commissioner is a "victim" of "bullies" and a "
fattist" agenda was behind her being bagged by the bushfires royal commission. Oh and of course, because she's a woman - no normal weight man would ever have to front a Royal Commission apparently, in Nixon's world.

Where does the victimology stop?

Ordinarily I wouldn’t return to a thread where I had witnessed disregard for others. Deliberate intensions to hurt somebody. This is a rare exception. The people who lost their loved and & indeed the people who died in those fires do not need her writing a book. It shows complete insensitivity . It is outrageous. Just as she chose to go dinning at a restaurant with friends while Animals Live Stock People with their children a babies burned to death.

Now - she has done it again. Even worse now she wants to make money out of it. It is more than insensitive but callous disregard . Given there was a Commission into this its possible she may be able to be charged. The problem however would be that would only bring more pain to the families. The problem is in this country we do not place enough priority on reproduction. Anybody can breed with anybody. Even animals had pedigrees.
We put these people in places of authority like forces and parliament . I will give this despicable woman no more air space . I wish the media would do likewise.
Yet another despicable act by doing a story on the book. The victims are those who lost their lives and their families. If ever we needed more evidence that she should have been CHARGED with callous disregard we have it.
AGAIN no thought for the victims family’s- just herself. Thank god she’s gone and good riddens to bad rubbish.


To you- you have a incredible cruel nasty personality . You probably won’t seek help but need it.

The fact you raised this person shows me you do not think of others.

Your as low as she is imop

Dear Antiseptic.

Thank You for your sympathy regarding my work colleague.
It is appreciated. Back to the topic. As I stated earlier -
Pelican did a rather good summation.
I wasn't trying to be contentious, merely trying to point
out that bullying is a problem that needs to be addressed
and that no every one is trying to rip the system off.
Of course, it's not always easy to tell the genuine cases
because of the very nature of bullying - and more research
needs to be done - but again as Pelly stated - most of us
know what genuine bullying is.

Now as far as your opinion
of me is concerned - I deeply regret that you feel that way.
I certainly don't harbour any ill feelings towards you as
I understand that the bad experiences that you've
encountered in your divorce and dealings with the Family Court
system - could possibly have affected your judgements making
you bitter towards women in general. Hopefully one day you shall
come to realise that not all women are against you.

Cheers.

Lexi, I don't harbour any feelings of ill-will toward anyone, particularly. I merely expressed my view of the behaviour you've demonstrated and showed that even trifling things can be misleadingly labelled bullying. It also shows that much of what used to be known as bitchiness is now classified as bullying, meaning that many women are being caught up in the whole thing, probably due to nothing more than the shifting tide of alliances that flows though many workplaces.

I apologise for my comments, I was intemperate.

Kerryanne, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'll get over it.

Dear Antiseptic,

Thank You. I apologise as well.

Lexi

Well I think we have seen seen the real meaning of bullying at least now. I mean real stuff people exposing others private information whether they are on center-link or not. Decent people I was taught speak up about that type of thing. On the other thread you see peoples names and associations dragged in that are not even on this site to defend themselves. I am just a simply honest person who speaks out for others. I am just wondering why nobody else cares at the utter unfairness of this- only me.
Is this the way of things here. I thought I was posting among decent people. That is the worst case of bullying & three clear breaks of any forum rules yet nobody says one word. Bullying & disgustingly low behavior. btw your welcome ammonite

Kerryanne

That we cannot see each other only provides a facade for a limited time. Bullies have a way of revealing themselves, particularly when they make obviously false claims regarding others about whom they have no knowledge apart from the postings online.

There is a delete button provided by the moderator.

;)

[Deleted for breach of forum rules on discussing specific moderation decisions.]

kerryanne:"something whiney"

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

LOL, she's set up New Pomerania...

http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=512&p=687#p687

Too funny for words.

Antiseptic

I do not wish to be on bad terms with anybody but posting others names not here is unforgivable. Just like your owe Ammonite - I am sorry mate.

Lets see if your really a big enough man to say sorry.
As far as your thread goes I agree with you but remember ALP mentality comes into play here. You sound to me like somebody wh has employed staff - as I*

Dont you know yet the boss is always supposed to give more.

They want what you have & if you ask them to empty a bin when its not busy they run and complain they were bullied.

Yes the Saudis now fund civil libs too. Teach them to complain about everything. Hey, dont be a little old lady living in a council flat Aussie born because they wont worry. Saw a white Aussie set up arrested ( dreadful business) government corruption. We got her to Terry Ogorman . They used a bogey id arrested her in a false name.
good case. zip interest .

As for workers complaining every minute yep thats the old alp mentality gang up o the boss and destroy a nation.

Sure IF somebody is bullied they deserve EVERYTHING they get and a good kicking to go along with it.
I* am sticking up for whats fair and right for ALL & thats the difference.

Have a nice day

Too funny for words.
Antiseptic,
Yep it is really inst it. It might however as well assist to keep the standard up here which is all that matters.
A little bit of see how it feels is a good crowd control.

Its just a naughty corner for bully's and after all you did start a that to look for alternatives to cut costs but still have a equally fair system.

So take the credit- you have managed where others failed to find that fair balance.

Well done cheers!

PS Fly's on the wall have all the fun dam it!

Kerryanne

We must be fair:

Bullies have rights too.

;)

Ammonite

Of course they do:)

Hey- Question-
What do bullies and sperm have in common?

They both have a one-in-a-million chance of becoming a human being.

My money is on the sperm.

Cheers

Kerryanne "A little bit of see how it feels is a good crowd control."

Some friendly advice.
That could be a dangerous tactic if you don't want PALE's reputation trashed all over again. Digging up old post's is probably going to hurt PALE a lot more than Anti or Belly.

Maybe more history that you are not across, but if you want to go there have a serious look at a lot of what was posted in the name of the organisation.

Maybe a look at the range of people who had real concerns about the choices being made, some who rarely agreed on anything else. Some have moved on or post under new alias's so for a new poster it may be hard to get the significance of that.

I think it's better for yourself and PALE not to go there.

R0bert

R0bert,

May I remind you I am Kerryanne and not anybody else. Because I was attacked from day *one for posting on Animal Welfare.
You and your friend have made it clear you have problems with anybody poster on animal welfare- How sad.

I see you are now to continue to try to bully and blackmail me not to post on olo by dragging up names of people not here to defend themselves. That is low.

I dont know or care what your past problem was in the past. That has nothing to do with me. I could not care less.

You seem to be a trouble maker and i wish no further exchanges with you.

btw another low act. The people you raise are not even on this site.

As I said very low

Goodbye and good riddens to yo

For the benefit of anybody wishing to know about pale as it has been raised several times here.

What I know about pale

I do know of them but as I have gone to pains to point out is I just came here to chat like others.

I know they work with Mr Howards former advisor of ten and now together with Australian Muslim Animal Welfare Associations.

They dont fund raise.

Pay out of their own pockets.

Dont control what members do or say like most. Which is what impressed me because i like to have my say about things.

I know they are hated for working with Muslims and that very clear on this forum to see.

I think its wonderful that Australians and Muslims are working untied to improve animal welfare.

Anybody wishing to follow this topic can clearly see that by looking at the post above.

Now I dont know this person from a bar of soap - and yet hes come to threaten and bully me off this forum

Why? What other reason could there be- because he thinks I work with or am a member of this wonderful group trying to help animals.

How pathetic is that.

Racism is a sad thing indeed just like bullying

kerryanne, I advise you to accept R0bert's well-meant advice in good faith. No good can come of draping yourself in PALE's ragged company.

Antiseptic,

My advise is to mind your own business. Threats I dont not bend to.
I have pointed out several times now I am not posting as anything other than myself- just like you.

I am aware of the organization you keep posting & also aware they are a cooperate member of this site.
My opinion is it is the most fantastic group I have struck.

I wonder what ethical rules cover multiple people posting under a single corporate login?

Similarly, what ethical rules cover a single person using multiple logons, even sock puppet shills?

Rusty

Rusty Catheter,
Hey Rusty, I dont know you , never heard of you & that tells me the veggie parade are at it again. You all require to think very carefully before trying to set people up. How dare you come in here and accuse me of having two tags & what was he other- hold on while i go back & look-

Oh yes

Some friendly advice from somebody Robert- dont know you , but i recall you attacked me bullying yet again from the moment i joined with belly - he being by far the worst.
He questioned me A who I was. B where I was from etc--
Now, I could have said- pls mind your own business & who are you.
I didnt- i answered very nicely until he made it clear i wasn't to have peace by either of them.

Now I honestly dont know who people are but I assume* its the veggie parade. Yes, I have had some experience with the sweet vegies BUT
If I am wrong-- sorry.

Pls understand if i want to post on something- anything I shall.
Well may you lay your threats about trashing names- go right ahead. I am aware the organization joined years ago as a corporate member and several posters used the name.

If you wish to lodge a complaint contact the business owner as that was how he set it up.

None of which is your business- nor mine really.

Do not waste your time trying to blackmail me. If i wish to talk about that organisation i will do so & how great it is btw girkls somebody has the brains to work with Muslims instead of the damhe done of late we saw on 4 corners.

How much damage has that done!

In keeping with this thread - bully's will not blackmail me

I think your all a tad odd - i dont know you people.

I most certainly dont have two tags!

Bullying is the product of attitude

We can always enact rules, regulations and laws to limit or curtail behavior

But no regulation, of any sort, will ever curb the attitudes which produce the inclination for bullying

“Bullying” is either physical – in which case it can be prosecuted as a crime or it is all just so much subjective opinion

imho turning the other cheek might suit the “meek”

but “meekness” has never rated highly among the desired attributes for any job I have ever applied for.

Instead, I tend to deal with most things rolling with the blow on the chin and then responding with what some might consider “an appropriate, proportional escalation” which others might criticize as a “disproportional escalation” and others might consider as more “bullying”

So there we are…

Bullying…. You will not stop someone from having bullying tendencies by laws

Just as you will not curb someone’s racially prejudical thoughts or a psychopath’s penchant for killing

All you can do is prosecute when they act out.

keryanne, I've offerd you good advice in good faith. If you don't possess the mental capacity to process that advice it's no longer my problem. Go and have a talk to your mate Wendy and ask her when she plans to start the defamation action she threatened me with some years ago.

That was in regard to the fact that I uncovered PALE's misuse of tax-exempt resources. Has that stopped yet?

It seems to me that you have a problem with the old verbal diahorrea which you could do with fixing.

Col, I tend to your POV. Having seen really serious, genuine bullying the like of which some people here would have difficulty imagining and having been at the sharp end of a fair bit of it, I learnt that the best way to deal with those who seek to attack me is to attack harder and better.

In the workplace, bullying can only occur when the "vicyim" acquiesces. Far too often a claim of "bullying" is actually a call to arms to "get the bully". We see it here when the "gang of three" (is it officially 4 yet girls, kerryanne has been trying really hard to join the gang?) starts up: the thread rapidly deteriorates into a crow's chorus of claims of bullying, with all the noise coming from the self-appointed victim's side.

It's just a symptom of the sense of entitlement that has pervaded our society over the past couple of decades. After all, if one has had everything handed out on a silver platter, it's hard when someone suddenly says "you've got to earn it". He must be a bully!

Antiseptic, I have stayed away, hope you do not mind my self defense here.
First work place bullying takes place, it is always wrong.
May I? KerryAnne has ran quite a distance from truth in her lies printed here.
RObert, one of her past life victims,remember the car park threads?
Defended Kerry Anne on me saying she had posted before under other names.
Now the story about me too is a lie,responding to remember KA the words exist here,
Some nastiness I wrongly, said Yabby referred to her as GLENNIS, forgive me he called her Gertrude.
I am in part responsible, I knew from day one I should go no place near the lady.
In my defense I offer nothing but KerryAnnes post history.
I get a link to another site and a thread she started PRAISING ME!
KA please read my post in boat people and know I am not requesting this be looked at by the administrator.
I am aware you may indeed not be in control of your thoughts ideas and statements but refrain from threats and lies please.
I promise,no further comment ever, but to refer all future insults to forum manager.

I DO KNOW BETTER
But believe me, for the same reasons I was a good union official, the need to help, I wish to defend RObert again.
Poirot was after me,Banjo was said to be me, Ammonite got both swipe and kiss on the cheek.
Yabby has boot marks all over him.
This poster would need to be able to totally adopt the personality in printed form, of PALE not to be a past poster.
The past was bleak, animal welfare its self suffered as a result of that warfare.
We, all of us, must think about this, some clearly are not in control of their words thoughts and actions.
Some need to build imaginary alliances with those in power.
Some can not see that like every action spoken or written we leave, as a snail does,evidence of our journey behind us.
The Belly of those car park debates would have over reacted, been in a rage sometimes, but he grew, just a little.
Hopefully I am not the only poster who can leave the bad bits behind and learn the difference between spite and fantasy.
Anti, you have grown a great deal of late and the new you is good.
If I trip and fall I would hope some one will remind me of it.

Dear Anti,

I wasn't going to respond but there are a few things
that need clarification. Firstly - one can't cry
foul when one clearly and simply starts
being abusive - and is then called out on it.

We all need to remember that there is another
human being on the other side of the computer. Of course
people will respond - when forced
even wish to retaliate - and this usually
lowers the bar of discussions. They become slanging matches.
Conflicts can be avoided - it only takes a look
at the way we communicate with each other.

I sincerely appreciated your earlier apology - adding mine
to yours and I hope that we shall continue to have many further
discussions on this forum. Let us call a truce to all this
ill-feeling of the past and move on. Pointing to the "gang" of
three - (or whatever) is as mature and intelligent as pointing to your team of cheer-leaders. Arguing on an emotion level can be done by both sides. But it doesn't achieve anything constructive.

Cheers.

Hi Antiseptic "I learnt that the best way to deal with those who seek to attack me is to attack harder and better. "

the words of Sean Connery in the Movie the Untouchables spring to mind

"They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue."

On a forum like this or I suppose facebook or anywhere else on the internet -

being articulate, in possession of a broad and comprehensive vocabulary (oops, tautology), using words one knows the meaning of, is the best way of challenging bullies.

"heightening the bar" is all one can do

bullies never like to be pointed out for what they are.

I do agree with you on the "entitlement" issue

too many people feel "entitled" to hurl verbal rocks at others who offer different views to their own.

yet they call "foul" when, if they hurl them at me, I hurl a heftier rock straight back

The initial rock hurling is a typical "left wing" strategy, where "bullying" people to conform to the collective uniformity (and worse) are the remedies for those self minded people who freely choose to dissent -

it is because most of the time, the left are so ignorant that reason and critical argument are beyond their feeble skillset and threat is the best they have.

Ah well... I will continue to do what I have always done... not because it necessarily right nor that it works but because it is what I want to do and I find it fun......

and lets face it... when I get bored of this place I simply scoot around the world and post somewhere else.

The internet holds infinite solutions to infinite problems...

just as one finds someone to disagree with, we will also find someone to agree with...

problem.. too much agreement leads to a boring argument

-which is why I tend to come back here.... I always find someone who disagrees with me....

Col one of us has to have the intestinal fortitude to withdraw.
It is me.
You are far too bright, no not love, to not understand that the enemy of my enemy situation only puts you in poor company.
Rest assured I never in my life TRIED TO BULLY YOU.
And mate as You would say of your views about me, our mutual dislike of each other is because we totally disagree on every thing.
Second attempt,for OLO sake.
Can we agree to ignore each other?

Belly "Can we agree to ignore each other"

You are free to do whatever you want...

You can even complain to a higher authority about me if you wish

I have found in the past, it is always the way of the "left" to demand silence through negotiation... it is a pernicious process which I will never be a party to.

So, Belly, one thing is an absolute certainty:

YOU WILL NEVER, EVER CONSTRAIN ME FROM SAYING WHATEVER I WANT ABOUT ANY TOPIC I WANT.

I REFUSE TO BE SILENCED TO ASSUAGE YOUR SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT TO A PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE

IF YOU DONT WANT TO READ WHAT I WRITE - YOU ARE FREE TO IGNORE IT

BUT YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO DEMAND I STOP WRITING

and trust me, every whining complaint you make will merely entrench my attitude of resistance against you and the feeble politics which you represent.

Dear Col,

Nobody is trying to tell you how to post.
Or what to post. The only person who
can constrict our styles - is the Moderator of
this forum. However, typically unleashing
offensive remarks continually on other posters,
because it's the Internet, and hey, you can.
Is an attitude that is not part and parcel
of the civilised social circles that I would have
thought you yearned to belong to. Obviously,
Your manners indicate where you really belong!

cont'd ...

BTW:

Do not "shout" (use capital letters excessively)
is one of the forum rules that needs to be adhered to.

Col Rouge

Hello Col,
For your benefit only I have made enquirers re funding to that org.
I will stress however I am just me Kerry. I was told this was raised long ago & the answer is $650.00 since 2000 .

The founder sold property to fund it rather than waste all the time fund raising like many.

I am informed the owner of the forum was sent information which included their involvement with RSPCA QLD.

Further more the message was not to worry at all about it for the the alp or veggie people to go their hardest.

On a personal note I would like to add I did request the email contact to be sent & received a response back informing me it had been done- which I appreciate.

I must say under the circumstances Col it does feel rather good to have a ALP Minister caught with his pants down.

I am not a political person by any means but I am beginning to see how it might be quite contagious:)

Dear Lexi,

I suppose its a bit much to ask you to be fair pls.
You have never said a word to the main offender who uses capitals in every post. Why just single this chap out . Dont you think that is bit hypocritical. I have often wished you would say something Lexi because he seems to listen to you.
Have a nice day.

Dear Kerryanne,

I am trying to be fair and I am speaking
to the main offender and no, he does as a rule
as he pleases, however sometimes he goes too
far - is all. If you're in doubt of this -
kindly re-read the posts, and the remarks
made. If I was to call you all sorts of
names - then tell you in capital letters
that you're not allowed to tell me how to post.
And another poster tried to tell me that I
wasn't being civil. Would you still think that
what I was doing was right?

Cheers.

Well I tried. The response being complete misrepresentation of what I've tried to do.

I'm pondering a link to some history but will leave it for now and hope some of this just settles.

R0bert

Dear RObert,

Give it up.
Best to simply get on with discussions you
enjoy.

Dear Lexi,

Thank you for your reply. I think i know what your saying but I am not sure tbo. I dont have your background and its all a little difficult. To others in here apart from Lexi and Col do not address me.
I do not know you & I do not wish to

Weird!

Lexi you started your last offering with

“unleashing offensive remarks”

You then continued

“because it's the Internet, and hey, you can.”

And concluded with

“Obviously, Your manners indicate where you really belong!”

your comments illustrate your capacity for hypocrisy

Because you are neither entitled nor qualified to stand in judgment over my “manners” nor to condemn me with the smart-arsed aside “where you really belong”,

especially when you are clearly coming from the same place.

“Do not "shout" (use capital letters excessively)
is one of the forum rules that needs to be adhered to.”

Again… not your call to make…

and I note the absence of a civilised "Please"....

I will also remind you

you are in no position of authority to "bark" your commands at me, your lack of civility again illustrates a level of hypocrisy which is all too common among your gang

Lexi “and I am speaking
to the main offender”

Please identify when was the previous time I ever used capitals the make a point?

When you have trawled back through the 3900+posts OLO has on record you will see it was a long time ago, if ever….

So your assertion “main offender” fails…

But failure does so become you

Now I see we are back to the “bullying” topic and the gang of three….

Strange how these threads entwine

KA "Weird!"

get used to it :-)

Hi Col,

Simply being honest I have not seen you shout beyond here.

Did you get the email address ? Graham said he sent it to you.
Inquiry is in fact closed but got a extension & hey, if your too busy just let me know & i will think whom else has a lib connection that may be half way bright.


As for the other stuff it will be sorted but this is more important tbo.

Kerry

Lexi RObert may I ask you do not take the flack for me, it is my view both have come under attack because of your fair and honest defense of truth.
We are best to ignore this,it may be a symptom of some thing else that is driving this.
KerryAnne one hour ago I woke from a sleep, I had a night mare, some one was hitting me extremely hard with a heavy object.
The last line of your last post looks just like one of the many threats you made under other names.
It would be handy to have those links .
Col, last effort was made, no need to reply I am extremely proud to be totally unlike you, to totally dislike you,as much as I truly despise the SOCIALISTS you brand me.
Good by, get well, and keep doing your shopping on line.

Dear Belly,

Can't you see he's only baiting and stirring.
That's all he has.
Actually, I never bother reading his posts in
their entirety. Usually I'll read a line just
to see whether he's saying anything new. I keep
hoping that he'll say something intelligent
apart from his usual same old Lenin,& Thatcher quotes.
But - he's so predictable with the same old thing.
As for responding. My advice is don't.
That's exactly what he wants you to do.
That's his entertainment.
Put him on your "to ignore" list like others have
done.

Belly "Col, last effort was made, no need to reply I am extremely proud to be totally unlike you, to totally dislike you,"
At least we agree on something, Belly....

I, too, am totally delighted to be nothing like you

although I can understand your confusion and identity crisis originating from your self-loathing, if you truly think of yourself in terms of

"as much as I truly despise the SOCIALISTS you brand me".

"Good by, get well, and keep doing your shopping on line."

I Assume you are leaving OLO.. so be it, but I feel it is no great loss

my health is excellent... benefit of a highly skilled and motivated medico wife whose passion is to ensure we both live well into our 90s and look 30 years younger than we are (she has achieved the 30 years younger.... me its a bit more of a challenge)

I will shop similarly to where I post, being ... where I choose but we buy alot locally too... I find Costco really good value

Ah Lexi " he's so predictable with the same old thing."

Here is another one to add to my quotes from Dearest Margaret

"the truth is the same old thing"

but of course, your side of politics have so many failures you have to rename your philosophies and policies ever few years, to get distance from the past before you try the same old thing again.....

it does not matter how prettily you package it....

underneath the "bling of the tax-funded packaging" its the same old socialist leveling which has failed time and time before

Like "carbon tax" which is mostly paid back to the consumers by way of tax relief and welfare bribes

"Ignore list"....

not under the OLO options, that I can see....

If I post it you dont get chance to delete it from presenting on your screen...

its just another example of your aspirations to censorship....

like I said before

you can ignore what I post

but, sad for you, good for me,

you lack any authority to stop me posting

Lexi I am well aware what you say is true have responded to a post from you that way in another thread.
Almost every one treats his posts that way.
So he comes in boots and all to get attention.
I am not leaving,room exists for every point of view and hopefully balance too.
No forum, ever, is free from such as Col.
We have seen some who came when seemingly drunk.
Col buys among other things on line his fuel for his ego.
He dare not behave like this in real life.
Lexi I am convinced we can see in our many differences here the root cause of mans inability to fix problems.
Your description is word perfect.
But truly, what is the answer?
If every problem child OLO ever saw was deleted we would miss some very true glimpses at the real state of the world.
I will not let myself become as blind and unbalanced uninformed and isolated from the world as the gentle man seems to be.
I will never post while drinking either.

Lexi, I will and always have posted as I see fit. I have received a great deal of opprobrium for that at times, mostly from the same group of people, although I have managed to aggravate others as well. That's as it should be. Apparently I've also managed to attract a few who think my witterings make some sense.

I see no need to engage in constant justifications of my views: they exist, they are reasonably clear, they have been well-stated and I believe they stand. I've given my view on the mobbing tactics employed by some already. You are to be congratulated for having the stength of character to stand aside from the mob. You would do well to also remember that trying to tell people how to behave is the province of politicians and priests and other persons of disrepute. As an adult I choose my own modes of interaction and if some choose not to respond because they don't like the tone, the conversation will probably get along better anyway.

I always remember there is someone on the other side of the screen, or why would I bother casting my glittering pearls of purest rationality? I live in hope that one of those someones will tell me something in response that is genuinely new to me. I'm occasionally gratified. You are one of those someones, but you have a strong tendency to the schoolmarmish which I find a bit grating. I'll live with it if you will.

Belly:"work place bullying takes place, it is always wrong"

But it doesn't take place at anywhere near the rate that has been claimed. Workcover's figures make that very clear, as does the response of some here to any suggestion that a claim might be unjustified.

Col Rouge:""heightening the bar" is all one can do"

I tend to agree. I also tend to use the cries of "foul" as a gauge of how successfully my comments have hit whatever mark I'm targetting. Clarity of expression can be very threatening, apparently.

Antiseptic " I also tend to use the cries of "foul" as a gauge of how successfully my comments have hit whatever mark I'm targetting"

thanks for your agreement

to the above

Margaret Thatcher commented once "I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left."

You are in good company in your views.... :-)

I see, from the post immediately above yours, the gang have been chatting about me here OLO... rather than to me.....

Obviously, their lives are so bereft of anything of quality or meaning that tittle-tattle about my buying habits is sufficient to gratify their need for pointless gossip and innuendo....

I think, in a perverse way, It is quite flattering.

Dear Antiseptic,

I do no mean to suggest that we shouldn't tolerate
a variety of opinions, or styles of posting.
However when someone consistently uses sweeping
generalisations and seems to be stuck in some sort
of time-warp. Adds nothing to the discussion topic
of any substance - then you can't blame people for
not reading their posts. Worse still if they
argue on an emotional level rather than a mature
intelligent one - and tend to be illogical and abusive.
They will subsequently be ignored. Just as I can't
forbid someone from posting. They can't make me read
their posts or engage in inter-action with them, when
I find them tedious and boring. Works both ways.

Cheers.

[Deleted for various breaches of forum rules.]

[Deleted for abuse.]

kerryanne, you're obviously very upset and I'm sorry about that. I remind you, however, that more than one poster has tried to offer you good advice in respect of the group you espouse.

That group was a serial pest here on OLO, demanding special treatment and whinging and carrying on for days over every perceived slight. t seems that you and they have not changed.

I have asked Graham to pass on my details to the group if requested, as I offered directly to Wendy some years ago when she threatened defamation. That offer was not taken up at the time. I suggest to you that the reason was simple: she understood that such an action was not going to fly. It's a bit hard trying to pretend to the high moral ground from the level of the gutter, after all.

My advice to you and to that group is to stop trying to make people do what you want them to do by using threats, especially threats that are baseless and smell very much of an attempted "SLAPP" (look it up).

The reason your group became odious to the public here on OLO is simple: it acted unpleasantly, irrationally and demanded special treatment, then tried to shut up dissenting views by threats.

I recommend you reconsider the company you keep.

I wish I had said that antiseptic.
I get no joy in the Lady's hurting but from day one knew in my heart I had seen this poster before.
Edgy after a few weeks of disturbing posts, not just from one poster.
I followed the links, looked at? well strange attempts to insult yabby me and others in another forum.
As well as here.
I do not want to live in the PALE wars again, in truth I ask myself why, but I stopped putting canned dog food in the RSPCA bin at my super market after that war.
Never re starting that,the recent actions look extreme in my view.
At some point,such posts say more about an underlined problem, in the poster.
Let us hope the bitter charges stop.
I have been victim, in my private life of intervention from that past group, it however resulted in a win.
But we must remember we should be careful online.

over night events make it clear I need to post yet again this warning.
Be much more than careful when posting personal details on the net.
I will not go in to it but be careful.
Watch the British police force ,for weeks after these riots bring crims to trial.
Any one can track you down be at your door over night.
I need too to say this,any group, not knowing one another,can have very strange people within.
Normal looking sounding but quite strange.
we are in no way different than a family here.
And like any have our problems, let us all be wise,every word we post is here forever,some truly see things that are untrue.
Last night bought this home, I can look after myself, am not yet too old or infirm to stand , but some have bought trouble to their homes by forgetting a human instinct, self defense first.
Thanks for the thread in the strangest way, any clear headed observer can see true attempts at bulling in it unexpected but clearly in sight.

Belly, I hope you've not been accosted by some member of this group? If so, I urge you to take it further. Such behaviour is simply not acceptable.

It's fascinating to me that this is the second disaffected "mob" that has thought to influence the conduct of OLO via defamtory websites and threats. I suspect that the members of both groups have more in common than they might like to think.

It's also interesting that both groups seem to be formed predominantly of middle-aged women.

The evidence is that most surveys show that women middle-managers are the most likely to be complained about as bullies. Perhaps the correlation is strong here too.

Antiseptic,

It seems to me after reading of past skirmishes in OLO vaults that "one" person seems to be unloading all the incendiary rhetoric. This person's posting style is extremely identifiable - even when posting on behalf of a group (mob) as any number of identities. I surmise that it is not a case a "both groups", but a revisitation from a disaffected personality.

You're probably right, Poirot. Sad, because she seems to genuinely care about the way animals are treated during the live export process and most of the time she's a pretty good contributor I think.

Dear Antiseptic,

Are men or women bigger bullies?

I Googled this topic just out of curiousity
after your reference to "middle-aged women."

The following website gave some interesting
insights:

http://curiousity.discovery.com/question/are-men-women-bigger-bullies

It seems that gender stereotypes still exist in our perceptions.
But as we know this doesn't allow for individual differences.
Women are supposed to be more submissive and less aggressive
which supposedly leaves them open as targets. And men are supposed to
be more sensitive to criticism, so they;re likely to bear grudges
and then act on them. However does that ring true in real life?

I guess we can only judge from our own experiences. As the site I
gave states, "Finnish researcher Kaj Bjorkqvist...discovered girls
instead of fighting on the playground ...play subtle mind games that
can cause more damage than a black eye...Both genders share certain
motivations - the need for attention, fear of competition and often
anger about how they're treated..."

cont'd...

My apologies for the typo.

The website I cited should have read:

http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/are-men-women-bigger-bullies

Not reason to be concerned but thanks.
I agree both groups, those who followed the links,seem to be one person with a few Friends.
I have resolved my issue.
Small village this.
A person with my sir name was visited by some one, not in my view a member of that group, a supporter.
My phone rang telling me I was to get a visit.
It would appear my visitor pictured an old and feeble man.
On letting himself in my gate he found my name sharer wanted to come too, he had followed.
I convinced the person, some apparent mental health issues he did not truly want to stay he agreed.
Those links, if any still exist, show a forum that hosted several of our ex posters.
It shows the animal welfare group and DNA is hard not to see.
Remarkable that in a thread about Bullying we saw some.

Just had a snoop at that other site which has nothing to do with OLO. The link to the thread Anti referenced some time back no longer works. From memory that thread repeated identifying detail about Belly. I wonder when that was removed.

A thread adding decidedly one sided comments on parts of this thread is at http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=514

Another started by the Administrator has not gone far http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=516

Wondering how some of the posts on the site would hold up if that unnamed organisation ever goes ahead with a legal challenge for discussions taking place here.

Eg from this sites rules
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/display.asp?page=legal
"Copyright and intellectual property notices
International copyright protection

The material on this web site is protected by copyright under the laws of Australia and, through international treaties, other countries.
We own or control, and reserve, all rights

Unless otherwise indicated, all rights (including copyright) in the content and compilation of these web pages and on-line images (including text, graphics, logos, button icons, video images, audio clips and software) are owned or controlled for these purposes, and are reserved, by us.

Copyright in articles on On Line Opinion is also governed by our Contributors Agreement."

R0bert

Lexi, thanks for that. a bit light on detail, though.

From Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_bullying

"In terms of gender, the Workplace Bullying Institute (2007)[6] states that women appear to be at greater risk of becoming a bullying target, as 57% of those who reported being targeted for abuse were women. Men are more likely to participate in aggressive bullying behavior (60%), however when the bully is a woman her target is more likely to be a woman as well (71%).[7]"

I stand corrected, although it's interesting that female bullies tend to choose female targets, or at least, that female targets claim this to be the case.

It also made mention of something Suze might be interested in

"Bullying has been identified as being particularly prevalent in the nursing profession although the reasons are not clear. It is thought that relational aggression (psychological aspects of bullying such as gossipping and intimidation) are relevant. Relational aggression has been studied amongst girls but not so much amongst adult women.[19][20]"

Which sounds very familiar from our experiences here. It's all about trying to play to the crowd that you want to belong to.

R0bert, the page in question has been regularly amended over the past couple of days, removing lots of silly stuff that was put up there in the initial rush of blood. Perhaps some cooler heads have prevailed. I've not heard anything more via email since I responded last, advising all concerned to pull their heads in and start acting more responsibly.

We'll see.

An interesting article on the subject

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/career_and_jobs/appointments/article6447287.ece

"Julie Morris at Russell, Jones & Walker, the law firm, said that men and women exhibit different bullying styles. “Female bullying can be a bit more subtle, whereas male bullies throw their weight around without really being aware of their actions,” she said. "

If true, that suggests that female bullying is deliberately used as a tactic, while male bullying emerges from the drive to get a job done. I'm not sure if that's accurate, but it's an interesting idea.

and

", Witheridge believes that the figures can largely be explained by the fact that most bullies tend to be managers and that most managers tend to be men. When women are in positions of authority it is often in female-dominated professions, which could mean that women bullies target women simply because that’s who is at hand.

“It reflects the make-up of the workforce, not a deliberate choice by women to pick on other women.” What’s important is not worrying about the sex of the people doing the bullying but how it can be stopped, said Witheridge."

It is important to focus on gender if the two genders bully for different reasons.

Dear RObert,

Thanks for your links. Frankly I don't understand
what they're all about. They're beyond me totally.

Dear Antiseptic,

Sorry about the lack of detail in the links I provided,
best I could do as I was in a hurry. Anyway you're right.
We should look at what motivates people to
become bullies. Although I'm not sure if its a gender
thing. As both genders seem to be equally motivated.
Perhaps its more of a personality trait? Interesting
subject though and Thanks for raising it.

Sometimes it is best to just leave things alone.
And sometimes it just can not be done.
This post is my view no one else's and it ends or me the discussion.
Shortly after I came to OLO PALE people against live exports and others including me came in to conflict.
Two threads named car parks, as in lets take it out to the car park took place.
One before I came here, or I may have just missed it.
I soon noted in my view one person seemed to be the power in that group.
I was both crawled to taunted abused and sneered at.
The intervention in to my life took place then.
An inquiring mind open but inquisitive will soon find the exact DNA threats cuddles inferences of wealth power including a law firm , in the posts of our most recent visitor.
I will go no further.
Do not fear for me I will be ok but we must confront its not the first or last time we will be confronted with needless lust for control.
Thanks RObert but I will not revisit that site too many pot holes there.

Lexi:"We should look at what motivates people to
become bullies."

I think that's already being done to a large extent. the question I find more interesting is "what motivates people to claim to be victims?" especially those people who anybody else would say was not a victim at all.

Further, I'm interested in the way that people seem to have become increasingly inept at the art of negotiation and conflict resolution. It seems to me that a great deal of the issue around bullying is specifically to do with the fact that the "victim" is unable or unwilling to resolve matters with the "perpetrator" without calling in a third party. It has little to do with "power" and everything to do with lack of skill and lack of willingness to be flexible, often on both sides.

It may also have to do with the sense of entitlement that pervades our society. As I said earlier, if you're used to always getting your own way throughout life and someone suddenly says "no", it's much easier to claim that person is somehow deficient than to readjust your own calibration. I think that last is quite a significant factor. It's not a huge leap from "hands off" in the schoolyard to "you can't tell me what to do" at work. Coping mechanisms develop through training. If the training is absent, so is the coping.

Lexi, your welcome.

Belly I'd not post there for the world.

Antiseptic, like most thinsg it's a mix. Some don't have sufficient negotiation skill's and I suspect that's a mic of nurture and nature. On the other hand some are so fixed in their ways that negotiation with them does not work (especially when they are in a position of power).

I've been thinking about this for a bit, in the years I've worked I've only had one boss who I'd consider a genuine bully (I'm inclined to use other works but I don't have the qualifications to make that assessment). He used all sorts of tactics to get benefits for himself at the expense of others or the organisation and was a master at setting people against each other. Also had some serious protection from further up the company, the assumption was that he had the good's on the district manager. I've had a couple of others with poor management/people skill's who were not good to work with but I don't think that they were bullies.

I've also not seen any genuine bullying amongst co-workers. Sometimes difficult people but none which looked like genuine bullying. Maybe I've been fortunate in those I've worked with.

R0bert

R0bert, I think your experience speaks volumes for your own ability to be even-handed and to resolve conflicts, which has been demonstrated here quite often.

I've only known a couple of workplace bullies. One was a memorable German chap, who was prone to fits of rage about seeming trivialities. I think I was sacked about 4 times and reinstated via a phone call and apology before I finally quit after nearly 5 years. His was a classic case of being unable to negotiate outcomes in the heat of the moment, as well as a certain cultural barrier and I suspect some natural diffidence which lead to bluster. He was a chess Master, but never quite made it to Grand Master level, which I know irked him a lot. Basically a decent guy, but out of his depth in dealing with people. Many of his employees hated him with a passion and he suffered a huge amount of theft from his shops as a result.

Another was the wife of an employer, who used to blow into the place and make herself a generalised nuisance. She loved to bear grudges and had one against everybody and anybody and what's more, she tried to act on them. I actually left that job because of her. She was a complete psycho.

Otherwise, I've also been lucky. Come up against several workplaces, especially in remote places, where there were "cliques" that tended to not interact much with each other, but that's the extent, really.

In the interest of fairness, I should say that I've probably been something of a bully myself in the boss's role at times. Working in construction and engineering the stakes and pressures are high and can lead to lessthan perfect styles of interation. I've certainly threatened people with the sack, even sacked a couple. No question I've been sarcastic and belittling. Undoubtedly I've shouted on occasion. However, at the same time, I've happily accepted uncomplimentary nicknames, since it lets people vent safely. The most memorable was "Hooter", which I got for the inevitable explosion from the office each morning when I discovered things that had been poorly done or needed to be revisited. After one especially good effort I received a standing ovation. It's hard to remain cranky after something like that.

Dear Antiseptic,

I agree with RObert. I think it's a mix of things.

Whether its in our relationships or in the workplace,
it seems we're always negotiating for our own voice,
and for me personally, I've always been afraid of
speaking what I feel. As a little girl, I was shy.
I wasn't comfortable with my own ideas, never
believing they were worthy of being heard. As I grew
older, I was afraid of my own strength and worried
that it would make me a threat.
Now after all this time I'm game to
throw down the gauntlet on occasion.
I've found that the only
path to happiness is to really be
all that you can be.

I don't mean to suggest being aggressive. However I
do think it's important to be secure and unafraid
of speaking your own mind.
If your intentions are not
just to win, then you can feel good that
you've spoken your mind without malice or anger but
just from the depth of your truth.

Sure there are many moments when we might say to
ourselves, Gee, I shouldn't have said that, or
maybe I should have said it differently. Well, okay,
maybe we often have to work on our presentations.
I find it important hopwever to be conscious and
compassionate and to act with great civility.

I've known bullies all of my life.
However I took it in my stride.
Tried reasoning , then ended up leaving for
the sake of my sanity. Because of my looks -
I found females to be worse in my case - then
men. All the bullies I've known were females.
It could also have need that I wasn't
aggressive - and they saw me as an easy target -
who knows? But I'm now in a job that I do love,
I have an excellent team of colleagues, and
my boss (male) is wonderful! So I can't complain.
I'm a lucky girl!

'I've known bullies all of my life. '

See that's a red flag right there. I often wonder whether people can be 'natural victims', or whether people choose to be a victim.

I don't know any bullies since I finished the first half of high school.

You can yell blame the victim all you want, but I would rather empower someone to deal with it rather than self righteously think they are an innocent 'victim' and there are all these nasty people in their lives that are all 100% at fault.

If you have problems with bullys all your life, it's time to look inward I reckon. Either you're hyper-sensitive, you rub people up the wrong way or you're simply socially inept.

I must say I have relatives who always seem to be at war with someone and it amazes me that it never seems to occur ot them that the problem lies with them.

I actually don't believe in bullies at all. You get on with some people, you don't get on with others. There's no such thing as a nice person either, people are people. In fact most self proclaimed 'nice' people, who put being 'nice' up as some life goal are actually very nasty people, always playing passive aggressive games for social capital. They actually care much more about appearing to be 'nice', and grandstanding and looking down on others. I think a lot of nice people see life as some sort of populariy contest, and are often prone to arrogantly setting and enforcing social rules.

PS: 'Because of my looks - I found females to be worse in my case' You know that sounds really conceited don't you? With an attitude like that I'm not surprised people would look to bring you down a peg or two.

PS: 'act with great civility.' One can act with great civility and still be a bully.

Anti you and I will have seen more work place Bully's than most.
Rarely was it the boss, but gee you got it right about the victim thing.
A victim is quite often the bully, in fact it makes a fine shield to stand behind and throw stones.
I had the task of resolving issues in construction government places and a host of industry's, including my own work place,my boss was as bad a Bully as any.
He selected his victim,hid his real self but I had the pleasure of informing him .
one thousand? maybe two or three? thats how many times I tried, it was my plan to try to fix it before it became managements task.
We here, in our past and recent present have seen a Bully posing as a victim.
It is the worst one to fix, every move can be used to say you are victimizing them.
Interesting three posting here, maybe four have been targeted but the number is more than just double figures.

'A victim is quite often the bully, in fact it makes a fine shield to stand behind and throw stones.'

Amen!

Dear Houellebecq,

There you go making assumptions again about people
you don't know. Dear oh me. I never claimed victim
status. I've never seen myself as a victim. Nor
perish the thought would I ever dream of bullying
anyone. I'm simply stating facts as they affected
me. The fact remains that I have known bullies all of
my life. I didn't say they were all bullying me.

As for my looks - I didn't mean to sound conceited.
Perhaps I didn't express it properly. What I meant by
that remark was - I was "different" in my appearance
from the norm. I stood out. Being head and shoulders
taller than anyone else for a start. But what the heck,
if you want to believe that I'm conceited - go right
ahead. If you want to believe that I'm a victim -
go right ahead. You've already made up your mind about
me anyway. As I have about you. so I guess that makes
us even. Why am I even bothering talking to you now.
Bye.

belly:"you and I will have seen more work place Bully's than most"

I'd reckon so, but I've rarely seen any get away with it for too long. In that industry there's simply not enough time for personalities to get too entangled. A decent project manager will also make sure that conflictual types get weeded out into jobs where they don't have to deal with people too much, if they don't do it for themselves.

I still think a great deal of what's called bullying comes from differences in personal styles rather than any purposeful effort to damage someone else. It's been exacerbated by the increased presence of women in workplaces that may have already evolved particular cultures which aren't especially compatible with a feminine sensibility.

On all these threads, the ones who are most vocal about bullying are the women. Most of the men tend to a much more blase view. I suspect that also holds true in workplaces generally and may be why some people say that their complaints are not taken seriously., especially when there is so much misinformed propaganda about bullying put about by well-meaning but inept groups of do-gooders.

It perfectly suits a passive-aggressive approach.

Here;s another classic example of bullying. In this case a man, the Chief executive of the New Zealand Employers & Manufacturers' Association, has been forced to rescind his perfectly reasonable remarks because some women pretended to be offended. You'll note that nobody provides any data to disprove his claim, which is soundly based, but there is much "mobbing" by women in high-profile positions.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/business/kiwi-employers-head-castigated-over-claims-women-take-more-sick-days-than-men/story-e6frez7r-1226080755986

"The head of the New Zealand Employers & Manufacturers' Association has publicly apologised after making comments on radio about women's menstruation and its effect on workplace productivity. "

and

"Labour Minister Kate Wilkinson described Thompson's comments as a ''brain explosion'' "

"Employment and Social Development Minister Paula Bennett said the comments were "archaic". "

and from Thompson himself:"
''When I take the interview in its entirety this morning, I don't think that it was wrong - we are a grown up country, we're debating issues and not hiding, not just saying (to me) you're a dinosaur, you're not PC, you're in the last century, in the dark ages...the response has been to attack me but a lot of it's been screwed around to not put in context.

''There's a lot of really glad people out there amongst the socialists and the Greens and so on and (CTU president) Helen Kelly who are very, very pleased to have an opportunity to make a lot of hay of it and they're spinning it for all it's worth. "

So we have a real fact that is genuinely important for policy making being hidden by an avalanche of self-serving bullying and personality politics.

I made the same point as Mr Thompson earlier, as did Goldman Sachs JBWere, who said that female productivity is some 50% less than men's.

How long can we continue policy-making based on an ideological insistence that black is white?

Dear Antiseptic,

There is no denying that this is a complex issue because
of the insidious nature of bullying. However, most
employers and employees know what real bullying is and
recognise the fact that real bullying does exist.
They're usually able to tell the difference between
those that are genuine cases - and those that are
merely work place conflicts. It's the real cases
that need to be seriously dealt with in the workplace
because not only of their impact on workers, but also
on productivity.

Most organisations have policies in place dealing with
the problem and most problems can usually be handled within the
organisation or within the departments in which they
occur. Of course there are exceptions to every rule -
as the following website shows:

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3183259.htm

Yes Lexi, I understand that Brodie Panlock existed, however the conversation has moved on. Perhaps if Ms Panlock had received better advice from parents and others she'd have left the job instead of taking her own life. Of course, the question that has never been asked about the case is whether she may have done something similar anyway. that would be too close to a genuinely useful inquiry and there are political points to be scored, eh?

Would you like to comment on the serious bullying I mentioned above? The man made a comment on the elephant in the room when it comes to female employability and he was shouted down amid accusations of misogyny and all sorts of alarums. As it happens, he was also right:

http://www.econ.berkeley.edu/~moretti/cycle17.pdf

"women have a much larger fraction of absences
with a 28-day pattern."

and

"The first row indicates that men in the sample have on average
8.2 days of absence each year, while women have 12.9 days. The resulting gender difference in absenteeism is 4.6 days. The second row shows our estimates of the number of days of cyclical absences. The unconditional gender difference is now 1.4 days (column 3). This difference is our best guess of the effect of menstrual episodes
on absenteeism for the average woman. Based on this difference, we conclude that about 30 percent of the gender difference in days of absenteeism is due to menstrual symptoms"

IOW, when he said: "hompson said if statistics had to be relied upon, those that showed who took the most sick leave should be looked at.

''Why do they take the most sick leave? Women do in general. Why? Because once a month they have sick problems, not all of them but some do,'' he said." he was right on the money, yet he faced calls for his resignation. What a disgrace the feminist mafia has become.

Do you support evidence-based policy, or do you simply ignore what you don't like?

It certainly appears that is the case in the NZ Government and trade union movement, don't you think?

BTW, Lexi, the Worksafe Victoria figures which show that less than 1% of complaints were founded in anything other than the complainant's sense of entitlement supercede the page you cited by some 4 months.

Do you think that the Victorian Government will act on this later evidence, or are they going to ignore stuff they don't like for political reasons too?

Dear Antiseptic,

This discussion has been a real eye-opener.
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.
See you on another thread.

Ah Lexi, I thought you were more intellectually honest. No matter.

Dear Anti,

Sorry to disappoint.
I'm just tired.
Perhaps in the next discussion
I'll be more up to jousting with you.

For now however, all I want is to relax
by an open fire.

Cheers.

RE: Post by Antiseptic, Thursday, 28-July-2011 7:54:57 and Pelican, Thursday, 28-July-2011 12:40:44

Antiseptic
You raised various points about bullying…valid and otherwise; while showing concern for promulgation of "false perceptions…". Perhaps a post is warranted, if for no other reason than "raising awareness", which of course – can only be achieved through negating ignorance.

Pelican's assumption about 'fear' is correct. People don’t speak up about workplace bullying for various reasons – potential job loss; fear of becoming the next 'target'; about not obtaining another job; the financial security and well-being of their families...and the list goes on. Genuine targets of an ongoing workplace bully 'attack' regularly find walls of silence, denial, and counter-attack. Anxiety, and reactive depression often result when faced with such toxic workplaces. And there's a plethora of research to support this if you feel inclined to look. Sometimes, all these people require is 'validation'. That it’s not their imagination; that people they've worked alongside for years will suddenly fall silent when their support is needed most; that there’s 'hope', 'understanding' and 'empathy' when their current view of the world reflects otherwise. When it’s 'safe' to speak about their experiences – some may even participate in surveys to add greater understanding to this global phenomenon, but many won't –because these experiences are too painful to revisit.

It's very easy for someone to attack, particularly when there’s no fear of being rebuked – simply because the target is out of earshot/range/sight. This, unfortunately, is the primary MO of a 'bully', in addition to false claims/hidden agenda's/dissemination of 'untruths’…whether through supposition or malicious intent. Where there’s a ‘lack’ of ‘respect’ you’ll find bullying; but few are willing to put a name to bullying when they see it, Antiseptic. And while there may be frivolous claims – that’s precisely why advocacy/awareness websites exist – to reveal what is, and what isn’t – workplace bullying. 95% of Know Bull’s work is ‘behind the scenes’ –with (Australian and International) organizations and government departments (even some mentioned throughout your posts) to remedy workplace bullying…and are very effective at what they do. Suggestion: bone-up on ‘libel’.

know bull:"Suggestion:bone up on libel"

Suggestion: blow it out ya bum! Nice attempt at bullying though. Perhaps I should complain to Worksafe?

I'm afraid I'm not convinced, but thanks for the response. As I think has been made clear by the Worksafe Victoria figures, your organisation is very much part of the problem.

While bullying unquestionably exists it is at a much smaller rate than you and your fellow "awareness raisers" would have us believe. As a result, there is a massive over-reporting to the watchdog - around 99% over-reporting. As a result, genuine bullying victims are lost in the crowd.

If you are going to undertake a task, it seems to me there are a couple of simple questions to ask:
1. What am I trying to achieve?
1. Does it need doing?
2. What are the costs/benefits?

I suggest to you that there seems little interest among "advocacy" groups generally in asking these questions. Having hitched one's wagon to a particular donkey, the ride commences with no clear idea of which direction the animal is taking one. Every direction is "forward": it's defined that way.

Further, I suggest to you that by "raising awareness" you are creating a problem where there was none. You have, in common with your fellow-travellers in the "advocacy industry", broadened definitions willy-nilly and created an expectation that is both unreasonable and unattainable for most people. By ignoring the personal factors that may lead to a "victim" identifying that way (poor work performance/poor interpersonal skills/poor attachment to the job being potential causes, not just outcomes) you creat ea skewed and misleading impression of both the problem and the nature of the solution.

In private enterprise there is no incentive to bully. It leads to poor outcomes. However, there may well be significant reason for pressure to be applied to individuals to lift their game in various ways. You define this as bullying. I say that definition is first-class rubbish.

>> Suggestion: blow it out ya bum! <<
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 16 August 2011 2:41:44 AM

Antiseptic has missed a glittering career in Human Resources with the aptitude he displays.

Such is his response to Know-Bull, an unsubstantiated rant to a reasonable and well-presented post. Beginning with an ad hominem and proceeding to claims such as:

>> In private enterprise there is no incentive to bully. It leads to poor outcomes. <<

Bullying does occur in private organisations - leading to loss of productivity as well as ruined careers, as many have already made quite clear. Another unsubstantiated claim.

However, I must thank Antiseptic for demonstrating on this forum how bullying works and how often bullies will claim innocence, even to claiming to be victims themselves:

>> Nice attempt at bullying though. Perhaps I should complain to Worksafe? <<

Very educational and informative, that a reasonable post as Know-Bull's should elicit such an excessive reaction.

Regards

A correction to my post above.

It should of course have read "about 9900% over-reporting".

Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.

Me thinks Ammonite your dislike of antiseptic has let you ignore the likely source of that post.
I doubt it passed by antiseptic, word perfect not the first apparently sent by another to charge blindly in the wrong direction.
LIBEL! gives an insight if you want to see it, so many here have been threated by the most likely to commit that act here.

Belly

I never mentioned "libel" in post my post to Antiseptic. Suggest you reread.

As for my "dislike" - I have never met the man, only know him from his persona on OLO. I merely presented my POV - which is what OLO is about is it not?

As for his post being "word perfect" - it may well be, however claims that bullying do not occur in private business are completely false.

http://tinyurl.com/3tchvxh

An excellent link, Amoonite. I especially liked page 194, where it said:

"As noted earlier, injustice is always in the eye of the beholder, and the fact that frustration and aggression often stem from relative deprivation in an era in which many people feel deprived. Simply put,there is a growing sense of 'entitlement' on the part of many millions of individuals."

In other words, to quote Mr Forsyth of WorkSafe Victoria:

"''I think what we are seeing is that the term bullying is being used quite loosely in the community now in many instances to describe something that has 'gone against me' or 'that I haven't liked' or something that 'I haven't wanted to do',''"

The whole piece is an excellent read. Most instructive in the methods used to manufacture victims and hence the need for "support services" out of nothing more than an inflated self-evaluation.

Thanks for putting it up.

Dear Antiseptic,

There are many terms being used quite loosely
in the community by a variety of people. So what?
That in no way changes the fact that real bullying
does exist and hence most organisations do now have
guidelines as to how to deal with this serious workplace
problem. The fact that some people will mis-use the
system - doesn't mean that bullying does not exist or
that it should not be taken seriously because of the
few that mis-use the system. I simply cannot understand
why you're even arguing about this matter. We've all
acknowledged that there are people who'll try to mis-use
any system anywhere - but this doesn't mean that laws
should not be put in place to protect the real problems
that people face in the workplace.

Anyway - enough said. If you don't get it - then I guess
there's nothing that any one of us can do about it.

Cheers.

Lexi, it's not a question of "abusing the system", it's a matter of creating a perception that all sorts of things are bullying when they're not even remotely closee to it. Let's not forget that 120 people with no case went to WorkSafe Victoria to complain every single week. That's 25 cases every day that somebody has to spend time investigating and only 1 per week on average will be found to be based on anything more than the person's own misguided sense of entitlement. It may even be less than 1 per week, because we have no data at all about any further action that was taken in the 1% of cases that were deemed worthy of further investigation.

Now, you can make all sorts of touchy-feely feelgood statements about "victims" and that's all wonderful, but the genuine numbers show that in the absence of such campaigns as "Know Bull" there is less frivolous complaint and when such "awareness" campaigns exist there is much more frivolous complaint, based on the frivolous definitions used by such "awareness raisers" largely to bolster their own claim to some form of funding.

I get it, all right.

Would you be equally as willing to spend money on this sort of thing if it was your own, I wonder?

Dear Antiseptic,

Apologies for not returning sooner. RE: "Suggestion: blow it out ya bum!" LOL, blow it out ya bum?!? You're an interesting fellow -perhaps a tad misguided...but interesting none-the-less.

However, a couple of corrections are in order.

RE: ...there is less frivolous complaint and when such "awareness" campaigns exist". I think you give us too much credit, and suggest the 'rise' in complaints to Worksafe Victoria was probably due more to the highly publicised, Brodie Panlock case. Our reply to those in circumstances such as Brodie's is to leave the job as fast as they can.

However, we rarely deal with individual cases - simply because we are NOT about vilifying bullies on a case-by-case basis. We approach from an organisational perspective - in other words: "the promotion of safe and respectful workplaces". Disagree with our stance if you choose - but that's our stance.

Further, you may be surprised to read we actually AGREE with your statement about 'over-reporting' of bullying instances, which occur for all manner of reasons previously mentioned - lack of social skills/sense of entitlement/etc. It's an unfortunate fact that not all of us will be 'liked' in the workplace, and Yes, some may even see this and the 'criticism' of their lacklustre work efforts as 'bullying', which of course it isn't. Some will make frivolous claims out of 'revenge', and the remainder will probably result from simply being unaware what actually constitutes bullying (planned mistreatment that's 'repeated' and 'persistent', resulting in 'health harming' effects - either physical, emotional or both). We know how stretched the resources of Worksafe, WorkCover and other organisations investigating these allegations are. And it's true that many of these complaints will not fit the 'definition' - but some will. It's an imperfect system, Antiseptic, but it's all there is.

Finally, just clearing up a misperception. RE:"... frivolous definitions used by such "awareness raisers" largely to bolster their own claim to some form of funding." Know Bull has never sought any funding...and never will, simply because we're self-funded and don't require it.

Yours in good health, Know Bull!

Thanks for your response. I'm glad you got a laugh out of my response to the libel remark. Perhaps you could recommend the phrase in one of your treatises on bullying.

On the Brodie Panlock case we agree completely: she should have left. I'd go further and say that most people who complain about being bullied should have simply left, especially if they were the only one to claim to experience it in a given workplace. So much of this stuff is simply an excuse for not taking personal responsibility for interpersonal relationships, but instead "going to mother" for a resolution. My mum used to make us shake hands and agree to move on.

I'm pleased to read that you agree with me on the over-reporting issue. Are you going to amend any aspect of your material to reflect that? It seems to me that a lot of your material promotes overtly the idea of "victim as saint/bully as devil" which is bound to cause those with resentments to act them out, I'd have thought.

On the subject of funding, if you're a private group, then I apologise, however, your website material promotes the view that you have some form of "official" status. If that isn't the case, perhaps an "about" page describing the nature of the group and its membership would be a good idea. In the interest of transparency?