http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixAaBV7W5xc&feature=player_embedded#at=85
Spain has an unemployment rate of 23% and in some instances 43% youth unemployment.House reposessions number 278 per day.

The Central Banks of Europe and the USA have created this problem and continue to exacerbate it by printing money(ie computer debt0 and putting the countries of Europe into greater debt.This is ficticious debt because these central banks are depreciating the EURO as they create more money from nothing.They are stealing from the people via inflation and have the audacity to present it as a debt.

We do not need private central banks creating money to equal our increases in productivity and inflation.This should be done via sovereign Govts that we elect.

Arjay, this is long overdue and perhaps just in time. Those that run the system are planning to move against humanity. They have the technology they control the flow of goods and materials and they are the global financial system. This forum has a core of souls who believe that the global economic and manufacturing systems evolved naturally to suit the market and the consumer’s needs. You and I know that the game is fully orchestrated by the financial segment.

Let's hope Sonofgloin that it is a turning point.Last yr Zibigniew Brezezinski said that there was a global political awakening and it was a problem for him and his elite bandwagon.

Right now the pressure is on Obama to increase the debt ceiling and expand the wars of imperialism.The Central Banks are threatening to crash the stock market again if he does not comply.It is financial rape and pillage on a scale never before seen in our history.

We are on the cusp of a new dark age or a new renaissance in which the people will have true democracy.The internet is our one hope of communicating the message.

I would always be a bit suspicious of terminologies such as Revolution Arjay; Only primarily for reasons that have been displayed in Historical terms; Be it Revolution against Monarchs, enters Republicanism, Revolution to Public despotisms, or of each who wish to rule by Law;
I would suspect that instead of dropping the Ideological notion of “The State” and its Oligarchs surrendering their parasitic privileges and Powers over Society ; I would assert that all it be a restructure of Oligarchic dictates by Legislatures reinventing Dictatorships ; or The Quran verses by Law for Despotism to flourish and prosper once more.Under the cloak of Democracy ; a falshood in it self.

We may well have not understood it for what it is, it is up to people now to understand what it is, and act accordingly, not to install a mutated version of Despotic Elitism, but to crush it, and dispose of it so it will be not for a longer time, and for it to raise its primitive plundering methodologies and persecute people under a false pretence;

This is a timeless Essay Arjay, as it was written and published in France in the 1850ies , Frederic Bastiat ; it is timeless in as much as it sounds as if it were published yesterday; Time in memorial ; Plundering classes by political and Legislative discourse.

http://mises.org/media/2648/The-Law

And that is how they do it. And it will have a profound effect when finally people come to realise it.

Arjay regarding Zibigniew Brezezinski, in one of his less cloaked geopolitical utterances said “it was easier to control a million people than destroy them, now it is easier to destroy a million people them than control them". Just that the subject was discussed is good reason to be suspicious and concerned.

New terminology, Arjay. What does it mean?

>>This is ficticious debt<<

If it is fictitious, why would it be a problem. And to whom?

Spain is going through the same awakening that Greece is experiencing. Decades - centuries, even - of featherbedded work practices and systemic tax evasion has come to a screeching halt. They are going cold turkey on a wasteful economy, and - predictably - expect the State to bail them out. The debt was created by people, Arjay, some of whom used it to run profitable businesses, others simply pissed it up against the nearest wall.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the Banks were complicit in this stupidity, to the extent that they lent indiscriminately, and became "successful" in the process. Which is, by the way, also human nature.

I realize that it is your hobby to misinterpret human near-sightedness and plain stupidity, and turn it instead to some imaginary global conspiracy. But the sad reality is that we have reached this point - as have Greece and Spain - through our own individual choices. Manipulation on the scale you imagine is simply not feasible, given the speed and effectiveness of global communications today. It's like imagining that 9/11 was orchestrated by the US government. Doesn't stand the simple test of "how?".

There's no hope of revolution, imo, only economic and social collapse. The current system has always been unsustainable, in every way, and it was only a matter of time before the whole thing came crashing down. The time for revolution has passed, for now, as late capitalism has reached such ponderous proportions that the least perturbations now have global repercussions. Food and essential services security, already stretched to the limit, could collapse virtually overnight in bankrupt states. There have long been excellent political and ethical reasons to revolt, indeed for the last two centuries, but people don't get beyond hype for political or ethical reasons, only over empty bellies. The Keynesian Revolution put paid to a political one, and the next world war will be one mainly of attrition. No nation can avoid overall collapse, whenever it sets in, because they're all mutually dependent.

I would not view on such occasions Squeers as the Collapse of the Nation State to be wholly a bad thing, Inevitable as you have said, but I cannot see the total annihilation of civilized society other than that which has forced itself upon society; Maybe it would be a good Idea to introduce the Darwinian theory of evolution and the survival of the fittest, be it the Natural order of things at this point;
We cannot undo the political crimes that the State has conducted over the many years with their social experiments and the manipulation of society , we simply cannot change that ; but that does not equate to individual peoples in society in causality to close their eyes and minds and perish along with the Nation State ; That simply will not happen ; but a massive great opportunity to rebuild society based on facts hitting home some ethical truths and some self responsibility - through the typical social interaction and natural attrition ; after all , that is how societies prosper and grow before Governments and Parasites plunder it.

The twentieth century has brought much prosperity to people and they realise what it is to achieve it ; and not even the most hardened despot can change that fact. And never will

All our finance system is in absolute chaos.This is not going to change from the top down.The elites want to maintain their powers of owning our increases in productivity via their debt money creation system.That is the basis of their power which must be ended.The revolution does not have to be violent.We need proper constitutions to protect the people from their Govts and large Corporates.

Pericles the debt is ficticious because they are stealing from the people via inflation (ie counterfeiting)and demanding it be repaid with interest.They have kept corrupt socialists Govts in debt for years using this process.The excess money they make ends up in worthless derivatives and they starve the real economy of cash flow.

Don't think that it won't happen here.The only thing saving us is the mining boom and the Labor Party are hell bent on the carbon tax and destroying that industry.What is happening in Spain is that house values have plummeted and the banks forclose with many still being in debt when the house is sold.When the market is flooded with no buyers the small banks are then in trouble but the Central Banks who create money from nothing buy up assests for cents on the dollar.

If the US Fed whom our Banks borrow from,raise rates,then our banks will do likewise.Unemployment is the big factor for people to be able to service their debt.

I'm not saying that all debt is bad.Private Banks should only loan out the money they have in their accounts.They will still make profits but not enormous ones.You don't need gold to back your currency.Just a good constitution that limits Govts from creating too much of it.It is really quite easy.3% growth means a 3% increase in the money supply.Govts would have to borrow and our taxes would far less.The income tax act only came into existance in the USA in 1914, one year after JP Morgan and Rockefeller instigated the Federal Reserve.That tax was there to service debt to private banks because the US Govt then had to borrow the peoples' productivity into existance.

per ridicules...quote..""If it is fictitious""

you should realise by now
that the banks create credit

tell us what better word to use
when govts bailout bankers
by lending the credit
from those..they are bailing out

its simple..so give us a name
for bankers getting leverage..by others signing
[taking over,*their..[the nbankers]..bad debt

debt...is an instrument of leverage
used by bankers to leverage the debt onto 'others'

MATE THE BANKS ARE BUST
how can govt lend the bailout from them?

""why would it be a problem""

is because OUR BAILING THEM OUT
only delays thenm EVENTUALLY going bust

but till then..its govts NOW re-paying
credit they GAVE..to the banks

its theft
worse its odious debt*

govt cant bailout capitalists
unless capitalists are giving them the cash for the bailout

and to 'give' their bailout
when banks are nothing to do with govt
is bailing out the rich...who then steal assets
water/power/banks..schools...army land..forrests ports
all at risk..for what..to impoverish the people further

""...And to whom?""

who gets the advantage
should bear the FULL burden
either let capitalists CHOSE to bail themselves out
or wakeup that capitalists steal govt authority..by odious debt terms

govts are in trouble
because YOU DIDNT REALISE
the system you love..failed long ago

from 2002..bailout got us to
2008 bailout

got us to where italy
now owes 2 TRILLION euro's
spain is more

greece near 800 BILLION debt
ireland..usa..mate...your to clever to try to act the fool

""It's like imagining that 9/11
was orchestrated by the US government.""

nop it wernt usa govt
it was dick cheney/bush/blackwater..mossad
all doing their 'bit'..[treason]

just like the debt treason[odious debt]..govt has signed off to

""Doesn't stand the simple test of "how?"...""

how is govt underwrote garbage
ratings agencies called garbage...*AAA+

how come not one..of your mates in in jail"
govts too busy..trying to raise more tax grabs..!
[austerity measures]

impoverishing the middle class upstarts
back into traditional peon/poverty

There exist a number of floors in that argument O U G; but the obvious argument is in the Keynesian Paradigm;
And when any Government standing on their soap box sprouting garbage about bailing out Banks; The Banks are the secondary inflationary measure the central Banking mechanism uses to launder more fiat money, when the printing presses are in overdrive;
Thus the endless CREDIT; well not for long.
It is simple how they do it; Central Bank cheque system; Central bank write a cheque for a nominal amount; let’s say $1000.00, Banking system credits that to their account and returns the cheque back to the reserve bank – The banks then lend that 1000.00 out to business with a six times amount ratio- they now lend out 6000.00 dollars, and collect the interest and profit, then pay back the reserve bank the amounts received;
Literally money from nothing
Banks come undone when the Redeeming factor is not in range, because of the Fed Checking system – If people had gone to redeem their money deposited in the banks, the Banks can not cover it because they have exceeded their asset stock ratio– so bailing out means – Yes, Print more money.

Government is responsible and their Monopoly of Printing Money , and then Central bank Cheque system ; Creating wealth out of pure nothing ,The Omniscient State ; And that is where we are at.

Where as in the Free Market economy, banks would never venture into ridicules or stupid decisions because of the strict accountability;then other Ethical standards.

And you should see how these political morons account for Inflation ; Be it 30 odd % understated.

All,

while I agree with you in some particulars, I see free market ideology as nothing more, ultimately and if it were realised, than a kind of neo-feudalism. A free-market system in which capitalists, utterly unconstrained, merely create an alternative dystopia to the current one.

I still recommend that you invest in some education on the nature and workings of the financial world, Arjay. All this cut'n'paste from conspiracy web sites about the elites and the Rockefellers and the secret cabal of bankers is not helping. Try taking my advice, just for once, and "follow the money".

>>Pericles the debt is ficticious because they are stealing from the people via inflation (ie counterfeiting)and demanding it be repaid with interest.<<

You cannot insist upon repayment of a fictitious debt. Try this exercise. If you borrow money from your Bank - let's say, to keep it simple, that you run up an overdraft one month to the tune of $100 - is this debt fictitious or real?

And about that $100 - did you spend it? Of course you did. You put that money back into the economy, in return for which you received either goods or services. Whichever way you look at it, that debt is real. Not fictitious at all.

It is certainly true that banks have been extremely lax in their lending practices. Unfortunately, if you try to solve the problem by saying "Stop!", you would quickly realize how dangerous that is. To real, ordinary people.

Tell me this, Arjay. Should the US lift the debt ceiling, or not?

If it does not, there will be defaults. Who, do you think, will suffer most when this happens?

Because it won't be the bankers, that's for sure.

As I said, follow the money.

Pericles,you are trying to save a dysfunctional,unfair decayed system.If they increase the debt ceiling,they are delaying the inevitable.What should happen is a Glass Stegal Act be implemented so the that the bad investments and Companies and separated from the good ones which actually produce something that people want to buy.Right now no one knows how the worthless derivatives are tied up with your eg super,shares in productive companies,sound good banks etc.Triage the derivatives and save the real sound investments and companies.

All the debt that the Fed Res has created from nothing should be wiped out since this is theft via depreciation of the peoples' money.Put a tobin tax of 1% on all share market and foreign currency transations.This will give an ample supply of money for the US Govt to function.

Next reduce Govt spending,bring the troops home and support Ron Paul in the ending of the US Federal Reserve.Ron may have a good chance now Ruppert Murdoch has fallen on his sword.

It may not be a perfect model Squeers , but compared to all other Ideological paths and forms of Government and non Ideas , it is the only mechanism that promotes prosperity and well being , and it always has ;
Africa is perhaps a better example of this if the feudal system if it is chosen to describe it – but through Natural attrition – social patterns and social interaction , it changes to benefit everyone ; from prosperous nations as a whole because of it , to become a basket case for Despots when Intervention is sought by State Imperialisms.

The confusion seems to be the difference between the description of Wealth and Money; Wealth could be well described as the outcome of productive society, to which a value is in essence aesthetic and does not carry any absolutes other than personal judgement of values ; thus it is its bearing governed by a strong moral and ethical standards ;

Whereas Money is merely a tool of trade that has been manipulated in an Absolution’s notion to now account for wealth , and it is held in abundance by a few selected entities ; in an ethical society, you or me or no one can print their own money or exceed any fiscal parameters because of that fact;
as no more we can pluck gold bars from the air ; And be it the Free Markets will not accept fiat paper moneys; This act alone was the domain of Government that demanded, and by threat and compulsion for everyone to accept their treasure.

Fowlers describes the worrd "Imperialism" s...This word is first attested in the 19th century, when it reflected the British politics of the time and denoted what was seen as the benevolent spirit or principle of empire. In the 20th century, it came to be used disparagingly, first by the Communist bloc with reference to the US and the Western powers generally, and then conversely to refer to the imperial system or policies of the USSR in the countries over which it held sway. Imperialism is now a largely historical concept, although the word is still used in political writing of the continuing or potential imperial policies of certain countries, predominantly the US but also the West generally in the context of Middle Eastern politics. Cultural imperialism is the attempt to impose social or cultural characteristics, such as language, on other nations, typically to further the political and commercial interests of the imposer:
So in what sense Arjay are you using this word - I presume it would be
as used by the Communist bloc?

I am not sure about that kman, Roam, Japan – China history? Just to name a few. Nationalism is a 19th century trait on the other hand; France 1848.
Communism or Socialism is perhaps best described as Ideology , thought up in principle by Germany and England , France , and with the risk of creating a grander argument , it is attributed to Governments of whatever kind and or denomination you wish to name , funded by Taxation and Yes , Central Banking , along with and also to fund their war efforts ; or simply Socialism of the Right.
Left wing socialism is only conservative in its already established boundaries, and too date has not ventured outside its borders, but administers its despotism internally; and wishes not to administer despotism anywhere else.

Any Government that comes to power almost immediately turn Right wing, or Conservative; but in this context Conservatism illustrates the preservation of Power and wealth of the privileged Oligarchic and ruling classes, by whatever means necessary; and perhaps that part in as much is true when you have mentioned it to be a 19th century phenomena; But It is not unique.

That might be a problem, Arjay.

>>All the debt that the Fed Res has created from nothing should be wiped out<<

In fact, that would be a serious problem. Have you any idea what would happen if the US defaulted on its debt? Any idea at all? Any conception of the chaos that would follow, and the hundreds of millions of people who would suffer as a result?

Thought not.

Follow the money, Arjay.

Ask yourself what would happen if the US government stopped paying its workers, stopped the welfare payments, stopped paying its suppliers, stopped the interest payments on the debt held by other sovereign nations.

Don't just spout theory.

Get real.

Just for once.

Actually ALL I reckon his meaning of "Imperialism" comes from the Green Left Weekly and only pertains to anything American.

if you per ridicules..or i
or if argentina or usa is living beyond our means
more money wont fix it[only delay it]

usa SUPPOSEDLY HOLDS all the gold in fort knox
cetainly enough..[if its really there]..to pay off their debt
[but its gone...so they got this paper debt..held over those who stole it]

nothing easier..SEIZE THE GOLD
re issue gold backed money like switerland/israel
or whatever..[govts made money..they can unmake money]
CAUSE THE PEOPLE ARE BROKE*..and you cant get more blood from the stone

look what the bvusche delar[bailout achieved]
now industry is GONE...in a few more years MORE industy GONE
all this delay..is only making things worse

usa is broke
eu is broke
send in the capitalists

if they can keep the job cash flowing
they can get the asset

worst case senario
kep the consumer..and keep the worker
print your own money..use the troops to secure assets
run them for the people..not for bankers or capitalists

the current debt is odious debt
made by criminals

designed to bring litle capitalists down
so the few big capitalists..to own it all

while the people pay for it all
again and again...

tax the rich
or eat them
its your choice

but stop bailing them out
with their fiat monetry system
they run and control..for their own GREED

spend the money wisely mr obama
food for your peoople first
if the lanlord kicks em out
build them a new house[for the cost of food]

lock up the criminals
seize their proceeds of crime
GLOBALLY

immediatly
now

no place to hide...!

Pericles:>>
And about that $100 - did you spend it? Of course you did. You put that money back into the economy, in return for which you received either goods or services. Whichever way you look at it, that debt is real. Not fictitious at all.<<

The principal is real, the goods are real, but the interest is a malignant fallacy that becomes an enforceable entity, the creation of capital without industry or exchange, the perfect con.

Pericles you must let go of the concept of usury when attempting to restructure the global economic system as built by the European Banking Cabals, that you believe control nothing. There is no path to a new system without the destruction of the old and who would want to live through that.

Global domination of the economic market is not new, the European Banking Cabals are not new, they financed Europe and its colonial expansion for hundreds of years and they funded the "New World" hence they became the Federal Reserve.

My issue with the cabal is that they have been instrumental in the formulation of the global trade expansion that has seen the global wealth move into the hands of fewer individuals, particularly in the First World and at an astonishing rate over the past 40 years. The enforceable UN mandates that we have been signatories to have the IMF and World Bank as the vehicle for change and the global system of trade and finance used is the one set up and run by the European Cabals.

TBC

Pericles if you had said to the Aussie in the street thirty five years ago that both the government and opposition just signed an enforceable UN mandate that plainly describes how ALL you’re manufacturing was to be stripped and shipped or stripped and dumped within thirty years. That in thirty years we would be importing all but the staples we eat, that the underwear the shirt pants and shoes you wear will be imported. Your television your radio your plates your utensils your flooring your curtains…your everything would be imported and the kids would work in service industries, if they were lucky……..He’d say “your dreaming”.

My father told me when I was a kid that the only ghost that I should worry about is a ghost with two legs, do I believe there are those who want to rule the world...yes. Do I believe the financiers of modernity are involved....yes....Do I believe in ghosts, sadly no, I say sadly because if they did exist it means there is more than this corrupt realm we call home.

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

@sonofgloin: My issue with the cabal is that they have been instrumental in the formulation of the global trade expansion that has seen the global wealth move into the hands of fewer individuals, particularly in the First World and at an astonishing rate over the past 40 years.

Having seen some of your posts here in recent times, I thought there is something you should make yourself familiar with. It's called the Gini Coefficient. It is a measure how much wealth is concentrated. The higher a countries Gini Coefficient, the more wealth in that country is concentrated in the hands of a few. You can find a good description of it on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

The Wikipedia article has a coloured map. One of the things that sticks out for me on that map is the Gini Coefficient of a country seems to be a very good proxy for how nice it is to live there. It is in a way a measure of how well a countries democracy is working. If everyone gets an equal say, then you would expect them to elect people who distribute the wealth evenly. Interestingly enough countries that do have strong democracies do have low Gini Coefficient's on the Wikipedia map.

Australia is a egalitarian country and it does pretty well, but in the last decade our Gini Coefficient has been creping up.

Now here is something to think about: the carbon tax includes a deliberate piece of social engineering. It shifts wealth away from the rich to the poor. It's not an ideal way to do it. I think the best way to do it is to keep the minimum wage high. But nonetheless, the carbon tax will almost certainly lower our Gini Coefficient, and if the poorer parts of Australia vote with their wallets, they should vote to keep it.

Rstuart, thanks for that link. Let us briefly discuss implementation and the vaunted outcomes such as the wealth distribution which is at the crux of this Labor Carbon policy tailored by Fabian ideology rather than an honest want to reduce "greenhouse emissions".

Gillard needs this tax because we are broke and in debt. During the BER the NSW state Labor government was broke, disastrous state budget forecast, then the BER. NSW Labor received BILLIONS for the BER, we paid double or treble for the same infrastructure that the self managed private schools built. Where did the missing State money go, it went in admin costs charged by the State government. Surprise surprise the next State budget breaks even, where did they get the Billions to sort out the State?

This tax is to cover the need for revenue now. If you believe that the Gillard government has any inclination to help the poor of THIS NATION you are dreaming, the Gillard government believes the only poor are those in the third world. Just over a year ago Gillard told caucus that she did not want to give pensioners more money because they did not vote for Labor and you suggest that a Carbon tax will benefit the unfortunate in our society…LOL.

The Green and the Global Elite's philosophy of the planet being way too over populated,coincides nicely with George Bush's and Obama's concept of "A New World Order." Obama's top science advisor Holdren wants to see the world's population reduced to one billion.See Alan Oxley's article today on OLO,' How to lower living standards and perpetuate popverty'

There is no hope for Pericles,he refuses to even understand the most basic concepts of how our increases in productivity should not be expressed as debt by private central banks.They are the source of the present economic crisis, much of the poverty,wars and over population on the planet.

@sonofgloin: Gillard needs this tax because we are broke and in debt.

Geeze. Then Labor really is a pack of galahs.

Did you see their own figures show this "tax" is in fact a tax cut, because money is being transferred from the treasury to us voters. There was an entire thread about here, started 6 days ago. The title says it all really: "The hot air tax: tax less to spend more".

But sssh! Lets not say it too loud, because if they learn that their clever plan to become a big spending government is in fact doing the reverse who knows, they might try and take it back.

rs quote..""their own figures show this "tax"
is in fact a tax cut,""'

lol mate thats when juliar said one million
will pay no tax..cause SHE raised the threshhold

but look closer
yes the threshold of tax has gone up
BUT the ammount iof tax required to BE PAID..has gone up
[FOR ONLY THE LOWEST TWO...@ 3% increase
but the highest is unchanged..!]

to wit basiclly you pay 3 % MORE TAX
cause who earns below 17,000[bracket creep]

just like we ALL pay an acces charge
regardless of how much we use it stays the same
millionars pay $30 bucks to acces the lines
just as the poor PAY THE SAME

my water has minumum of service fee plus water used
[same phoner/power rego etc]]
now i use less than the basic fees
yet pay the same

like rego...[and COMPULSORY thrird party]
i ONLY use two tanks of fuel PER YEAR
but pay the same rate as one who drives non stop

its a scam
i dont use the phone
yet must pay a basic serrvice fee
MORE than the cost of calls..its like that with EVERYTHING

big ab/users SHOULD PAY MORE
the more you use..the more you SHOULD have to pay

""because money is being transferred
from the treasury to us voters""

mate ALL MONEYS..go to the fed reserve bank
not one cent into treasury

"The hot air tax:
tax less to spend more".
But sssh! Lets not say it too loud,""

it is a hot air tax
your paying for a compound you cant see
you cant measure the c02 releassed from gassy coal or not gassy coal

or wether its wet..or burnt affectivly
generalisations is not science
just as consensus ISNT science

hot air tax..""because if they learn
that their clever plan to become a big spending government
is in fact doing the reverse who knows,..they might try and take it back.""

mate once we give the tax INCOME to the commodity traders
they will increase its price

noting china's tax rate will be one dollar 50 cents
nz is virtualy coal free...[ie mostly hydro/and hydro thermal]
so their 15$..per ton..dont hurt much

we got a MANDATED 23$
that is MANDATED to go UP EVERY YEAR

those bering bought off with grants FOR NOW
wont be getting it in 3 years..or have gone to china

the rich are rich cause they dont pay tax
cause they got lawyers...family trusts
and hundreds of other clever scams

That does not surprise me Arjay, but you must also realise such Ideas are not new; If you listen to the first link ; ‘The Law’ , that Idea goes back to Egyptian- Greek – etc eras ; be it for a fact for those times , they achieved it. But perished just as fast.
It is not enough to attribute this Idea purely to Green Ideology, it is as Much Liberal – Labour – Democrats or any political Full Frontal lobotomism of any type you wish to name ; and as the word has been introduce here by rstewart; “Egalitarianism”; Now , who here actually knows what this is?

And until people come to realise it , the conspiracy theories will keep rolling on for eternity;
Here is your answer;
A chapter from Theory and History ; http://mises.org/media/5341/11-The-Challenge-of-Scientism

Just link to the mp3 file it is an Audio File ;The Website is under reconstruction ; there, add to another conspiracy.

There's no point in a discussion that is conducted through the exchange of meaningless slogans, fellas. If you don't want to engage with the facts, then simply say so. All this huffing and puffing about global elites is simply a smokescreen for the fact that you understand nothing about the conduct of finance, and refuse to believe that anything can happen without the intervention of some form of surrogate supreme being, who shuffles money around like they're operating some kind of mysterious and powerful Rubiks cube - now you see it here here, now you see it there.

Everything that is happening in the world of finance is clearly explicable using perfectly normal logical and factual processes of reasoning and deduction. Arjay, for example, is unable to answer the simplest "what happens then" question, simply because he refuses to apply straightforward "if, then, else" logic.

No-one is pulling magical strings, guys. Yes, some people are getting extraordinarily rich at the expense of the rest of the population. And guess where the vast majority of new billionaires are being created right now? That's right. China. And how are they doing this? By making and selling stuff. Where are the Global Elite in all this? Have they relinquished their top-dog status?

Stop for a moment. Give away the slogans. Follow the money.

It's so simple, it's laughable.

Here is a funny one Arjay ; Professor Paul Cantor writing an article in regards to the telecast of the Pyramid rover on Fox TV ; exploring an Egyptian Pyramid ; When you hear this Audio file you will be entertained in the Consciousness of what you have been conditioned to know and think ,but subconsciously did not make sense;

http://mises.org/media/6292/Keynes-and-the-Pyramids

Well, now we can realise why the Pyramid are an Iconic Symbol;
So now launch a defence in Legal terms; defending what has been termed as; “Tomb Robbers” Based on Individual and Private property rights ;

Don’t Cheat, Compile an answer , then compare it to this essay;

http://mises.org/media/6471/In-Defense-of-Tomb-Robbing

This is just a simple demonstration of how much we have been conditioned ; Not to See the obvious , but only what they conditioned us to know.

per ridicule's sloganeering again
""follow the money'...you repeatedly present that slogan
without even attempting to refute the main premise

they stole our gold
they stole our silver
then stole our copper
now plan to steal our nickle coin

who is they?
the bankers..that run the federal reserve fiat monetry system[franchise]

that they took from govt control..by treasonous means
[by buying up long term bonds..
then demanding they get paid in full in metal..IMMEDIATLY]

mr riduiicle demands we..""answer the simplest
"what happens then" question,""

what happend then
is govt NEEDS..to borrow its money
[in the form of credit]..from the bankruptcy trustees[bankers]
that then needs taxes on wages
to repay the intrest

the rate is sety by babnkers
who trade off..which govt gets what credit
at what intrest rate...at what value..its local currency is set

mr ridicule repeatedly repeats his follow the money logic
despiote him being a banker...repeatedly refueses to explain
only defend his mates excess

he says his other mantra""he refuses to apply straightforward "if, then,..else" logic.

if the banks hold aLL THE GOLD/silver/copper/nickle
how come we didnt get all that back when govt 'paid off the debt'?

if they sold it
they need to replace it
the NEXT time we clear the banker debt
[and jail any red head liar..who enlarges the debt
that allows thieves to run the FIAT[by decree]..money system

""Where are the Global Elite in all this?""

they hold their wealth in bank shares
in family trusts...and in foreign accounts
as well as many under the harbour scemes

HECK..your the banker
YOU TELL US

call a cop
he knows*

they have also used the fractional reserve lending
to turn little credit numbers into big debt numbers
ie churned the cash..into 3 quadrillion in govt bonds globally
then force govts to austerity measures...and steal the family silver

but here am i again
explaining to a banker
who uses his mantra of bull

follow the money
well mate hopefully govt will

we need to audit..who owns what
fully lable everything as being owned SPECIFICLY ..by who
look at the numbers..then do what is fair..[like comunism
disperse the spoils]

create the next generation of super rich
then tax every transaction..[trobin]..then put back death dities

""Have they relinquished their top-dog status?""

not sure yet
ask rupert
ask bellisconie
ask libia/egypt/greece ire-land spain usa

BUT WE AGREE
Give away the slogans.
Follow the money....[find out WHO OWNS WHAT]

It's so simple,
it's laughable.

yeah...aint it...lol

@Pericles: There's no point in a discussion that is conducted through the exchange of meaningless slogans, fellas.

Oh yes there is Pericles. They've all gathered here to create an echo chamber. When they say something, they hear it repeated a little while later in general agreement. It's a bit like a school girl yelling into a canon, squealing in delight when her own voice returns.

Normally this doesn't happen, but this is the first time I seen 4 of them gather on the same thread, for the most part without opposing voices. At this rate it seems like they could be here, enjoying their own company, for days.

True, rstuart.

>>At this rate it seems like they could be here, enjoying their own company, for days.<<

I do like your euphemism "enjoying ones own company", by the way.

Highly appropriate.

srt*
[standard response teqnique]

dont reply with facts
respond with jingo-ism

just like juliar..allways talks about toney
not the fine detaiol of the new BAILOUT/tax

[obsessed with toney..or just getting in
the new tax
to bailout the 'commodity' traders]

needing a nice REDUCABLE 'commodity'
no one can see smell of taste
[much like paper money]
only its not a unit of exchange

the fed limits the cash
the commodity traders limit the 'con-oddity'

really its like shooting drunken fische in a bar
even the bankers cant refute the facts

so ignore and play platitudes
[not expanding on the topic]

too clever by half ju-LIAR
your avoidence is absolute

lol

invest deeply boys
you might get back cents on the dollar

[oh forgot
they ALLREADY stole the copper one cent/two cent pieces

funny how the copper alone in them
costs 7 cents today

thats debt..we the people hold over the traiters
we want our coin-age back

you want to deal in cyber credit
[without even a flat fiat promise..to underwrite REAL value]

invest you mugs
[once you loose our COMPULSORY super
you will have to gamble your OWN credit]

go cyber
you clever pppp..dddddickkks

the real assets can be traced...
and WILL be asseized

thieves will get
what chi-chess/que got
when his austerity measures
genocided his romanian people..into poverty

learn the lessons of romania
rome/mania..the army eventually unites
against those..
who condone treason*

no place to hide mate's

Arjay, I know I'll come across as a fwit for having to ask for clarification, but I didn't understand "They are stealing from the people via inflation and have the audacity to present it as a debt. We do not need private central banks creating money to equal our increases in productivity and inflation.This should be done via sovereign Govts that we elect."

I always thought an "increase in productivity" was another way of describing "getting the same for less"… which wouldn't seem to require creating money.

WmTrevor, I did not know that banks were allowed to create money from nothing until 3 yrs ago.Do not feel ignorant or foolish as many highly intelligent people I know,have difficulty in understanding this.

When we as individuals are more productive or create something new,we add to the productivity of our country.So new money must be added to equal it.You may be paid by your employer more money,but notice how much of it get consumed by tax,be it direct or indirect.Much of this tax ends up in the pockets of the Central banks and their associated investments.

Who creates this new money to equal your new toil and creativity? Mostly it is foreign private Central banks,who loan to our private banks and our Govt at interest.Our Govt with the loss of 4 State banks and the Commonwealth bank must borrow to pay for infrastructure and many Govt services.

Through the fractional reserve system of money creation they used to create some of our productivity debt free.We have never been free of debt via the European central banks but Keating and Labor made us real debt slaves.When Keating sold off the Commonwealth in 1996, Howard had to bring in the GST to service the debt to OS central banks.30% of our mortage money comes from OS central banks.We are borrowing from OS to buy our own land.In the commercial world OS borrowing is much greater.

In the 1970's our foreign debt due to borrowing was $3 billion.Now it is over $ 600 billion.

View this brilliant DVD by Bill Still,'Secret of Oz' then you will really understand.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIhDdST27g
Last yr it won the Biff International Award for best documentary.

Just ignore Rstuart and Pericles,they think that their bank shares will evaporate if too many become aware.Our economy will boom and a new Renaissance will dawn if we have the courage to take on the Global Central Banks.

Pericles:>> No-one is pulling magical strings, guys. Yes, some people are getting extraordinarily rich at the expense of the rest of the population. And guess where the vast majority of new billionaires are being created right now? That's right. China. And how are they doing this? By making and selling stuff. Where are the Global Elite in all this? Have they relinquished their top-dog status?<<

Russian billionairs, Chinese Billionairs, they still aint invited to sit at the table of The Club of Rome.

I am still trying to figure out what restart is on about; one moment he is offering you some spurious links to a Jeanie bottled Coefficients; and the next thing he has latched onto Pericles skirt like a baby without a bottle looking for some brownie points;
Pericles wil not share his Jam Bun Mr rstewart;

Slightly confused Egalitarianisms of No standards and no concept of anything and no ideas to offer;

But Pericles did not pick up on that ether ; instead chose to have bathed in the adulation of a fan , pelting his head like a good little puppy ; How scientific and factual is that . hhehe

ALL:
<Slightly confused Egalitarianisms of No standards and no concept of anything and no ideas to offer>

I'd say this is a fair comment and more or less true of all of us bar the free-marketeers who want to scrap government altogether and leave the world's ills to sort themselves out "naturally", that is via the dog eat dog mechanisms of the free-market. But the notion of a free market is oxymoronic as it is more a case of capitalisation of "natural" advantage and the accumulation of a power bases rather than anything that might be called "fair trade".
The notion that getting rid of monetary funds and central banks will restore any kind of equilibrium to the world is fantasy--indeed small-minded; it would only restore the world to the kind of strife that prevailed before.

Pericles:
<Have you any idea what would happen if the US defaulted on its debt?>
While this does bare sober consideration and should perhaps give us pause, we are likely to see this rhetorical question played out in the real world any case, as it's surely only a matter of time before before unsustainable sovereign debts become bankrupt States. And even if creative accounting on a global scale heads this off, it doesn't alter the fact that the whole exponential phenomenon of human growth and consumption within a closed grain silo has a bleak future.
So while I'm not as blase (which suggests a hint of optimism?) as I take Pericles to be--in that I see the current human social experiment as headed for extinction--I also have no practical suggestions to put forward, i.e. suggestions that have the faintest hope of being taken up.
I certainly would not condone the indifferent mechanism of a totally free market--as if that would fix anything or has any hope of getting up.
There's no way out of the perilous situation the globe's human inhabitants continue to exacerbate without biblical pain imo.
Arjay, your "revolution" in Europe is just a hissy fit; reformism rather than a radical agenda for real change.

there is much to that you say
with which i agree

however the cure is only too simple
the bible forbids ursury[intrest]
and the koran forbids[ursury]

the torah forbids ursury
[except to goyum]..non jews
and that is the means to end the lie's

all debt is deemed debt payable
but only principle debt[by bank to govt]

the laws of bankruptcy must be changed
ALL DEBT MUST BE REPAID IN FULL

no cents on the dollar
for even the most clever lawyer

all contractualised 'ursury'
is termed odious debt..but the principle must be repaid

'new money'...will have a transaction fee
dying will have death duties

banks are not for proffiteering
but purely a service[ran as if government owned]

we must use the fractional lending principles
10%..'creates'..the 90%..that gets paid back in full

[just like bankers alone can do today]

[noting the banks lending to banks
has created a fractional reserve real/present danger]

its just a shame those who know..
still think we can borrow our way out

what drunk ever gets cured
by giving him two more bottles of booze
in return..for his 'promise' to give you 3
the [that]..principle is just insane

@Arjay: Just ignore Rstuart and Pericles

As a peace offering I give you this:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/07/a-pound-of-flesh-how-ciscos-unmitigated-gall-derailed-one-mans-life.ars

It is a conspiracy involving the US government, and I know how you like them. It is also real, which means discussing it rather than this latest fantasy of yours will bring abrupt end to snide remarks from Pericles and I.

You seem to be a little pessimistic squeers, I do not think things will end that bad, but you may need to change your outlook for the long term future, and enforce changes that become beneficial to social utilitarian precepts.
Now your Central banking is a problem child, I can systematically refute your Mystic outlook , and it is simple and very explanatory ; But I will refrain here at the moment , but if you wish you can study in brief the start of such banks ; By Whom? , and for what purpose? , and that in itself will totally refute your reply; and may well suprise when you may learn some truths.

And it is not much different than what you see today in our wonderful Sociopathic Democracy; and I would suggest the good old days are back and much better for them from looting the society without any effort at all ; at least the short term;

And you seem to have accepted that the Sociopathic experiments on Society have gone seriously and fatally wrong, No surprises there; Fatalism that enters in the principle of mankind’s thoughts has a bad habit of to be Reductio ad absurdum; and that is exactly what we have as politics today and it is called Government;

Their contract to society is to protect and preserve; they plunder and destroy; so They have breached their contract to become a wicked entity parasitically exploiting pillaging and plundering as if it was some devine soverign right to do so.

And the paradigm suggests we need more; The feudal lords are back Squeers; but in expensive cars funded by tax and not horses.
We can change this , and we will change this

But our ideas of the kind of change needed are antagonistic, ALL.
You want pure capitalism, which is inherently unfair and does nothing to counter the bred human proclivity to hoard wealth and power. I absolutely agree that we don't want what the neoliberals love to call collectivism (which, paradoxically, they depend upon and cultivate), or big government. I think government should be localised, though we'd need national/international institutions to oversee the peace. Capitalism is precisely the problem in that there is no constraint on the accumulation of wealth and power by individuals and minorities. That's why, again, I propose an individual wealth cap. Entrepreneurs would just have to draw their "creative" inspiration from the challenge, and not the wealth that might accrue. The "ordinary" consumer would revert to an active citizen with responsibilities, and have to be much more self-sufficient, and less dependent on that ample tit that's suckled him all his life--regardless of whatever robotic job he's functioned and puffed himself up in. Crucially, government office, like the sporting arena, would be devoid of distinctions, in terms of both power and remuneration. Politicians and sports men and women would have to do it for the love of it, and be admired for their commitment as much as for their prowess.
Thus I would advocate society based on "material" equality, not merely liberating special individual capacities thereby, but propagating them in a culture of true competitive ascendency.
What is capitalism's crude and vicious game compared to such genuine humanism.

Well Squeers, NO, I would never put anyone or anything in a frontal Ideal; it may be easier to explain it this way;
Mankind has been here in Theory 10 odd thousand years (WITH EVIDENCE) obviously we cannot know in absolute fact, but as a reasonable estimation had learned many things ; outside of the Ideological mechanism of class distinction ; Polylogism Looters law; ; but When realised that those who proselytise the opposite to what is defined as Intelligent ; ( Those who see things how they are} ; defined as we know as indeed facts ; Reality; so it is actually simple and not a complex question ; I promise , life is easy , criminality makes it harder.
And Humanism is ; Natural Interaction with each other ; the prime argument you present is by nature , Reasoning ( Human) that is the difference between animals and humans we can plan the future , we do not need a pack animal or predator to keep us in line ; That sounds contradictory to life these days , but that is because it has been fabricated on falsities and fatalistic greed by those who do not have a clue.; Government /. these Gods kill and destroy ;
I do not mean that I know what life is or let alone define it in principle of what is divinity , But I can deduce from factual things what it is not , and that You , as I , like everyone else , we can think now and think ahead ; because it is a gift that distinguishes us from animals who live for the moment ;; there is hope squeers , Call it Natural Intuition , Your inner voice- spirituality and ethical conductor ; that is who we are , ; and of who we are biology tells us ; violating any person or animal or physical thing without justification of perceptual conduct with definitive purpose ; well , that changes the argument ; Agreed? And for thousands of years

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=66363.0

some earlier histry

chickens comming home to roost[africa]
http://www.globalenvision.org/library/23/1524

this guy tells it straight
max keiser
http://www.facebook.com/KeiserReport

its worth watching all his vidios
[he keeps a sense of humour as well as honour
a former stock broker/trader..who saw the light]

The current U.S. debt ceiling crisis has the capacity to destabilise markets. August 2 is the cut-off point, and unless a deal is reached by a polarised Congress, America faces a default and risks a downgrade from its AAA credit-rating.

This link explains the issue in more detail:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jul/14/us-debt-ceiling-deadlock-questions-and-answers

Unless we end the US Federal Reserve and their parasites,our economies and way of life is doomed to debt serfdom.The central banksters are stealing from us at every turn and manifest their theft in derivatives which have no value.The second collapse is upon us and this will be far bigger than the last.It is totally unnecessary and avoidable.

So don't expect any stimulation of the economy this time around, all the would be whingers will have to stand on their own.