In the interests of balanced discussion, please read the following link. http://sl.farmonline.com.au/blogs/farmonline-opinion/a-letter-to-four-corners-from-wellard-rural-exports/2193028.aspx

This details the "other side of the story" - the true nature of what happens to Australian cattle going to export, the millions invested by Australians and Indonesians in improving facilities and practices, and the very real impact that the current ban will have on both Australians connected to the industry, and the Indonesians in the areas around the abbatoirs impacted by the ban. For a country that exports just 30% of Indonesia's cattle use, our countrymen have had a very significant impact on improvement in practices. Instead of condeming them, we need to get the other side of the story out and celebrate the very real improvements that have been made. Needless to say, we wont have any influence if we back out of the market completely.

It is of course the Greens screaming loudest about ending all
live exports. What a great reason for the Indonesians to get out
the machetes and chop down some more of that rainforest, breed
a few more of their own.
Result - Green voters = Orangutan killers. The law of unintended
consequences strikes again

I don't think it's the responsibility of Australians to change abattoir practices anywhere but in Australia. However, by having mandatory animal welfare provisions on Australian-produced livestock we lead by example.

My view, as an omnivorous Australia who doesn't care one way or the other about whether or not Australia has a live export trade, is that the industry (including producers, transporters, exporters, feedlot operators and procesors) is collectively responsible for ensuring that International humane standards are adhered to. If it isn't profitable to conduct the business both humanely and sustainably, it's just not viable. Expecting taxpayers or animal welfare activists to foot the bill is effectively asking us to support an unviable industry.

On the other hand, I fully support the revitalisation of our domestic processing industry, which has been allowed to become moribund while the option remains to sell low-quality beef cheaply overseas, even where we know that large numbers of stock will be treated inhumanely. The mining boom can't last forever, and meat processing could well provide employment for all those semi-skilled workers now currently off making big money as cleaners and drivers in the mines. Temporary workforce shortages can be offset by proper use of 457 visas. The advantages to Australia's long term sustainability are obvious, as would be the revitalisation of many country towns where abattoirs are now sitiing idle.

Indeed, the more I look at this issue, the less I think we need a live exports industry. While it's desirable that the Indonesians lift their game to world standards, it's not Australian taxpayers' responsibility to subsidise an unsustainable industry in order that they do so. Animal Welfare activists should apply pressure directly to Indonesia, and those who profit from the industry should pay for lifting it to minimum standards at least - otherwise it's simply unsustainable.

There can be no justification for mistreating Australian animals in Indonesia or anywhere else. We should not and do not, accept cruelty to animals. An immediate ban on all so called Indonesian abattoirs is a correct immediate response from the Live Cattle Export Industry in Australia.
We could, and we can by taxing live exports, ensure that Australia would only process, freeze and ship packaged meat to other parts of the world. For one thing, it’s a higher value product. But there are some countries where that is said to be impossible for cultural and practical reasons.
We are talking about villages where there is no refrigeration. But meat goes bad just as fast whether it is recently thawed or freshly killed. There was on Four Corners glimpses of good practice, modern stunning and slaughter facilities but there will always be the other side as exemplified by the bulk of the film. We support the government’s decision and it should be extended to ban exports of all Australian livestock. Why do we think we have the right to do anything we choose with any member of the animal kingdom ? We are I believe actively working to improve animal care in the world and we must use our influence in those countries to speed up progress on animal welfare reform. Perhaps the example of refusing to put animals through the stress of the unnecessary excessive handling involved, let alone the cultural attitude to animals, would be a better influence. The suspension of exports should be followed with insistence that animal welfare practices cannot be compromised in any way. These expectations, are not optional, they are integral.
The simple solution is to place a small tax on the exporting of every live animal. The abattoirs in Australia that were closed can be reopened with the recovery of the 40,000 jobs that I believe were lost when the unfortunate decision to permit shipment of live animals was allowed to replace their product.

Indonesia has a responsibility to feed its people so it might just invade Nothhern Australia to capture land to do so. It could also seek other catle markets in South America etc. Indonesis is not subservient to the Australian Greens Government: they are an independent nation with a huge population and army. For Australia to deny them food might be a trigger for agression.

Philo: Beef in a 3rd world country is a top luxury food - nothing to do with feeding the populace. We can still provide it anyway just properly packaged and frozen or cryovaced and properly processed. If you are so frightened you should work harder to overthrow the Greens. They must be allowed to have good ideas occasionally

Country Gal I thank you for the link the thread and nice to see you back again, balanced response and understanding is much needed.
I remind some, Indonesia is a independent country and trading partner.
It is remarkable and truly good that we have some influence in improving this country's practices.
And while Emotions, and in my strongly held view other motives, such as interest in starting Halal meat exports/not eating meat at all are about we both country's require better.
And have achieved that already,AS AN ALP MEMBER/FOOT SOLDIER I BEG my party to stop pandering to the greens and their supporters here.
I a simple man could have fixed this, had cattle being exported and killed in world practice ways within a week.
My party,its leadership, and supporters must remember, we wish for things that have served us well, NSW country Labor for a start,to grow ,to bring new seats and country members ,not die at the hands of blind populism that serves to bring new enemy's needlessly.
I remind Moganzilla and others, I am yet to see,even one pro live exporter not agree it had to be unmasked it had to stop.
Yabby I am no coward, leave such threads as this only to not feed those who say one thing and want another who may or may not be wooden horses hiding true identity's and intentions.

I think the *Greens* should be aware that the 2 major parties and their clusters of self interested career professionals DO NOT share power willingly, and how many times now have we seen "policy releases" with "Green Shades" announced without warning or discussion with the added and very real risk of the destruction of the financial security solution of Australians with no advanced consultation process. *Yappy* is correct to alert us to "unintended consequences" in my view.

..

On SBS Indonesian News recently, the relevant Indonesian Minister stated and I translate:

" Ohhh! How come Australia didn't talk to us nicely about it first? "

..

Aduh! *Julia Gila*

..

Well may *Mr Wudd* be accussed of being autocratic and authoritiarian. But is *Gila* any better in her treatment of us?

..

As the translation of what *Abu (suka) Bakar (bule) Bashir* had to say moments ago, I note that the translation was censored. (Likely for incitement or something similar.)

..

I shall be a good lad and respect that, but do think it important that we are all aware that such censorship does take place without real time disclosure.

..

*OPPOSITION LEADER ABBOTT*

" ... Why is the Prime Minister scared of debate? ... "

…What appears to pass over the unaffected heads of the dislocated animal rights lobby, now in full confrontation mode and baying for blood; is the blood being spilt is that of a $330m dollar a year cattle export industry.

…Here is an entire industry shut down without notice and without the slightest regard of consequences to the producers of these cattle, or for that matter, the twenty thousand head of cattle left sitting on the dock, and the blind pandering to an obvious lunatic fringe, by the Gillard Government.

…As far as I am concerned, this event exemplifies the total incompetence and inability of this Government to not only function in a reliable fashion, but to be trusted with any further major decision making for this country on any level. This Government is now totally defunct: The proof, if any more is needed, is the exposed priorities highlighted by the abandonment of Cattle producers in this country, over an inane issue of animal rights

*The abattoirs in Australia that were closed can be reopened with the recovery of the 40,000 jobs that I believe were lost when the unfortunate decision to permit shipment of live animals was allowed to replace their product.*

Dickybird, you seemingly know even less then the Greens, about the
meat industry. The 40'000 jobs is pure rubbish. In fact when
50 or 100 jobs are advertised in WA, nobody applies. 457 workers
are the only ones wanting them, they keep the meat industry going.

The reason why northern cattle are shipped out live, is that they
have little meat value, being tough as nails off the stations.
Hamburger meat is low value, not high value. Those cattle need
feedlotting before slaughter, Indonesia has the feed, we don't in
the north and trucking it up there would make it unviable.

A steer that does not go on a boat, is immediatley worth 150$
more to a pastoralist. That is the difference between keeping the
station going, or giving the game away. If you want Australian
employment, you are free to have a go at harvesting the million
camels running around the North and turn them into meat. Nobody
has done it profitably.

That is the problem with this debate, the Greens don't have the
foggiest about economics or running a business.

Next unintended consequence: Those shiny new Wellard ships are not
going to be scrapped, they operate globally. Those Indonesian
feedlots are not going to stay empty either, too much is invested.
So cattle from Brazil, Africa, India etc will be sourced. Before
we know it we'll have foot and mouth on our doorstep, with enough
refugee and fishing boats sailing here to transfer it across the pond.
With all your good intentions you will destroy a 14 billion $ a
year Australian industry in the process.

Yabby,
You are to be congratulated for your patience and persistance in the previous thread.

You were advocating Improvements to the slaughter process in Indonesia while keeping the supply of cattle up to those abittoirs that were slaughtering to our standards. This could easily be done and the trade continue.

Despite many explanations as to why we cannot do the slaughtering here, it is obvious that there are some people that simply don't want to listen or just ignore factual information. So they still advocate a complete ban in live exports, again despite assurances that they are floating feedlots.

They claim to want the slaughtering done here but where are they going to find investors to build or reopen abittoirs that are known to be unviable, for a number of reasons.

Like Katter said on Q&A, 'They want to shut down all Northern Aus above Brisbane, except for a bit of cane on the east coast' or words to that effect.

I'm sorry for Belly too, as the continued ban is now becoming another knee jerk stuff up by Labor.

I too am sorry Banjo and very sad.
My post history should support my views that while I am no youth my concerns for my party are that it should be,young forever.
Move toward change leave the class warfare in the past bring constant change and improvement
Shear terror/fear about drifting voters toward to Greens is killing my party.
This is one such mistake.
Others are not telling the public, not understanding they do not know, need to be informed, of the behind the scenes reasons to act so wrong.
How many Australians, informed of both sides of this issue,would not agree outcomes are better than needless pain.
Yabby has called for more government funding for Indonesian Abattoirs, Morganzilas appears to ignore industry's, not governments existing funding.
With 10 percent of funding we already make, to protect and grow other exporters, we can fix this.
Surely and end to suffering,policed actions to over look all parts of the trade are achievable?
Do posters want to know the very real saddest part of this whole issue.
My party in my view will reopen the trade with every commitment Spoke of, within 6 weeks, why then stuff up so badly.
Greens those who support them, in my view take the eyes of Australians away from the very real dangers in current conservatives leadership.
And in my view should be treated both both Labor and Liberals for what they are.
A group distrusted by 80% of this country's voters.[ would have liked to use a more descriptive word]

IMHO most Australians advocate:

(i) identify where slaughter done to Australian standards and ASAP resume supply ;

(ii) identify where slaughter NOT done to Australian standards, confirm these producers MUST satisfy these standards before they can import again ;

(iii) results for both above should be published for all to see ;

(iv) Provide a logo to identify products produced which satisfy these higher standards, also encourage Indonesian consumers to support these products.

How many Indonesian sites inspected ?

Results of these inspections, with date inspected and by whom

Banjo, thanks for your kind words. The funny thing is, I haven't
even sold to the live trade for years. But I do understand the
industry, especially in WA, and its vital importance to agriculture
here.

Fact is, Bob Brown will still get his generous pension, even if
through his ignoranace, he destroys thousands of livelyhoods and
jobs.

None of these people have every had to get a gun out and shoot
livestock because there was nowhere for them to go and no food.
None of these people have faced a local processor who knows that
he can offer 20 bucks for a ewe and the farmer has no choice but
to sell, as shippers are only buying wethers of the same weight,
for triple the money. Processors won't pay a penny more then
they have to, the live trade keeps them honest.

We have a Meditarranean climate here in the West, unlike the East.
So inevitably livestock need moving at the end of the season,
live shippers can do it. Processors cannot, workers don't want
seasonal work, they want year round jobs. We have created some,
by doing lambs for the US etc, which is where my lambs go. But
it doesent work for merino stores, which is what the live trade
buys.

I've seen around two thirds of the farmers around here leave the
industry, as they could not make the figures work. If those farms
arn't producing, there are no golden eggs for everyone else. That
is exactly why the Australian sheep industry has dropped from
170 million to 68 million, in just 20 years.

I find it interesting that Morganzola seems to only care about
the wellbeing of Australian livestock. When I make a suggestion
that we could be assisting other livestock in the third world with
our technology, he is clearly not interested. Yet we blow 4 billion
a year on foreign aid. A mere 10 million or so could make a dramatic
difference, as I've suggested on the other thread.

This beef fiasco just perfectly highlighted the utter stupidity of some citizens of Australia. Other countries' citizens must have blurred vision from tears of laughter when talking about Australians.

I can't understand why the government had to totally ban the live export of beef when so many people depend on the exports. From what was on the news it seems that only a small number of abbatoirs were at fault. Why not simply ban the export to those that don't comply to our standards? I too was horified when the story first broke on television. However, after watching Q and A on Monday evening - as Bob
Katter stated - Australian farmers will pay a very heavy price for this decision by the government. Have the Greens forced this decision on the government? It makes no sense for a Labor government to risk the wrath of the cattle industry.

Hi Belly, thanks for the kind comments :)

This is something that frustrates me hugely - the whole debacle has been completely one-sided. It would take very little effort and expense for the government to engage someone respected within the industry (or hire a current Australian inspector), to inspect and report back which facilities were upto scratch or likely to be so in a very short period of time and then restrict sales to any other facility. Introduce heavy fines right the way down the system for trading outside the rules. As others have suggested, bring influential mullahs from the worst offending areas to Australia and show them how a humane (and cost-effective) halal slaughter can be done. There are a MYRIAD of solutions that would not only reinstate the Australian trade, but help bring up to standard practices right across Indonesia. Apparently its ok to torture a cow so long as we didnt breed it in Australia.

Yabby as usual is spot-on in his analysis. If there was a dollar to be made in opening local abbatoirs, someone would be doing. In the rural industries at least, there are still plenty of people with an entreprenuerial spirit. The fact is that there is not enough regular supply, regular demand, workers prepared to live in relatively remote locations, sufficient feed supply for feedlotting etc to make this viable. I was always taught that the most environmentally responsible thing to do was to use the land to its best purpose (dont try to crop in poor soils in marginal rainfall areas, for example) - this trade and industry has developed to where it is by following that ethos and working within the environmental, social and economic constraints that it has to deal with.

TV 7 MATE is showing "Mighty Ships of the Sea" which features the BECRUX shipping 16,300 head of stock from Darwin to Indonesia.

http://fw.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/livestock/cattle/money-behind-abc-footage/2197952.aspx

It will be interesting to see if there is anything behind this
story. Eventually the truth should come out.

...So what this yet unproven but believable new insight (via Yabby's link) exposes, is the possibility of the four corners documentary being fabricated. How UNsurprising! That information stacks-up with the report in the Weekend Australian newspaper of two weeks ago: That report also added to the contrary view, the four abattoirs filmed for the documentary were not actually slaughtering Australian beef at the time of filming.

...At the very least, Joe Ludwig should be sacked, and a Government inquiry into the whole affair should be initiated; at the end of which legal action should be initiated against offending parties, including ABC management: Until then, the immediate resumption of the live cattle trade is paramount...

A few more thoughts on this subject...

Indonesia is a country that doesn't take kindly to any snub such as depriving it of a desperately needed source of beef. The mistake made by the government may cost it dearly as Indonesia cannot afford to be deprived of its food source and will turn to other beef exporters from South America, to replace the trade with Australia. Having stopped the exports it may already be too late to negotiate a resumption with a Muslim country whose culture does not accept such an
affront.

We rely on Indonesia to maintain good relations as neighbours and it took decades to build up that relationship. This government decision may destroy this relationship and it would be to our detriment when
our government is looking towards regional co-operation and stability.

Lexi,
What you say about keeping the trade up to those abittoirs that slaughter the cattle to our standards and bypassing others that are below standard, was the obvious way to go.

This seems to me what was first done(if I am correct) then later a complete ban was imposed. One must question what happened to cause the later total ban. Was that due to further presure from the animal libbers and/or the Greens? Neither would surprise me as practicality is seemingly non existant in both groups.

Certainly implement the necessary measures as Yabby and Belly have suggested with the aim of continued trade. Once each abittoirs came to standard they could be added to the list of suitable abittoirs.

By all means hold an inquiry as to why the situation has not been remedied before and hold MLA to account as Katter and Rehctub have both said.

May I shift a bit from the thread?
To put a spotlight on just why we are in this trouble.
Yabby still reading your other thread, recent posts confirm my reasons for not posting.
But too HIGHLIGHT the very nature of this dispute.
We saw dreadful unneeded Cruel acts, EVEN IF, and a chance exists, believe me it does,it was acted and paid for, we MUST stop it.
But some hidden self interest groups,without doubt, by deceiving and miss using us all, [NOTE RELUCTANCE to find fixes that continue the trade]are pushing us and my country away from better out comes.
Now yes country folk often are anti ALP but look with me at this, a lot of current politics is using the very same tactic,and winning.
We are not well served by our leadership, we are in the middle of a childish school yard bully's fight.
Both sides are refusing to act in this country's self interest.
And who would have ever thought it? Tony Abbott and Gillard both are bending to the GREENS.
Know this,while 12 to 14% of Australians, support the greens true left.
86 TO 88 PERCENT, well dare not say LETS PRETEND Australians only distrust the greens.
Do not blind your selves ,Abbott too yesterday put his personal wishes in front of our country.
I look for the day both major party's walk around both house to vote together to end 12% the country's most unloved party, to rule against whole groups of us,to force hardship on these farmers.
Gillard and Abbott while I wait for your party's to get aback bone end this gutless bending to such.
Get the trade restarted TOGETHER.

Lexi, I'd say that the total ban was slapped on, for pure
political expediency. Animals Australia with Getup, had
already planned a major tv and radio campaign against Gillard
personally, to force her to shut down the live trade. The
total ban effectively pulled the rug from under their feet
and they could not go ahead with it.

All the rest would simply be seen as collateral damage.

Actually, the Indonesians have not been slaughtering Australian cattle.

They've been slaughtering their own cattle. Once they have been paid for they are no longer "ours" and the owners are free to do whatever they want to with their own property.

If people are suddenly horrified by a practice that's been going on under their noses for many years, they should consider their support for the live export practice itself and not on imposing token restrictions.

It's a bit like our opposition to the death penalty for convicted Australian drug couriers in those countries yet supporting the execution of their own home-grown terrorists.

Thanks Banjo, Yabby, and Belly,

You guys know more about this situation than I do.
I'm going to be watching to see what happens next.
I've got to say Bob Katter impressed me on Q and A
the other night. A bit of a character - no doubt -
but what he said made sense.

My brother, a meat eater his whole life told me last week that he and his wife had become vegetarians after seeing what was happening to our cattle in Indonesia. I know of two others in the extended family who have given it serious consideration. Given I spent four hours cutting prime meat off a fresh carcass just the other week I'm probably not as ready to jump as they are but I will admit it pulled me up in my tracks. I personally had spent six months off pork until my local butcher had assured us he sourced his from a free range farm. He even smokes his own and it is a top notch product.

Whatever one may think of their stance, I personally applaud it, they are consumers and their choices matter. It is no good trying to divorce the Australian industry from what is happening in Indonesia because my brother's decision is about not wanting to support an industry that permits their animals to be treated in such a manner.

I think the Gillard government's action in suspending live exports will have a major impact in retaining consumers who are ready to quit or dramatically lessen their meat consumption. Given the vast amount of advertising done by the meat industry to promote their product one would have thought they would have been prepared to put the interests of the local sector over the small percentage that make up live exports.

*my brother's decision is about not wanting to support an industry that permits their animals to be treated in such a manner*

Csteele, luckily 1000 million Chinese have a rising income and
they like meat, so perhaps the industry might just survive
without your brother :)

There is no "industry" as such, just many sections of it, with
a pseudo Govt dept sitting on top. That pseudo Govt dept seems
to have gotten some things wrong, only the minister has the
power to get them to fix that.

It is just sad that the ABC did not show a documentary style
programme about the Indonesian situation, rather then act as
a promoter of AA dogma. I could make a sensationalist style
programme about domestic violence, gruesome enough that
some would call for banning marriage! As viewers we should
see both sides of the story, not have our tv hijacked for peoples
agendas.

AA and the RSPCA sat on this footage for months and refused to
even show it to Ludwig. Then they screamed loud, when he did not
shut the industry within a week after their movie went to air.
So it was all part of a neat campaign.

If AA and the RSPCA were really concerned about animal welfare
in the third world, they would get involved in designing some
decent equipment for it and promote the spending of a few
dollars of our huge foreign aid programme, to get it into some
of these works. But of course vegans don't want to be associated
with anything to do with slaughter, they dislike meat eaters in
the first place, so Egyptian animals in Egyptian meatworks
continue to suffer, whilst Australian animals get it easy.
Why do they only care about Australian animals?

Plenty of vegans have stated on the various agricultural forums,
that they think that farmers should find another job and give
up livestock farming.

Dear Yabby,

I don't think my brother had any thought of shutting the industry down, all he did, as was his right in a democratic capitalist society, was to withdraw his custom. Some call it voting with his wallet though to me it was just taking a personal, ethical stand.

I'm not as against a properly conducted and well supervised live cattle export trade as others but anyone who thought a strong ownership of this issue by the government was not warranted is being short sighted. I would expect them however to be expending every effort to get a humane and sustainable system in place as quickly as possible.

I think any anger should be directed at the Association who was getting paid to supervise the live cattle trade. However I would not have wanted or expected anything less from the government on this issue. Unwarranted delays may well change my mind.

Perhaps an alternative title for this thread might have been 'The influence of abattoir practices in Indonesia on Australian consumers' because any good business sector shouldn't be ignoring it.

yabby! betcha the chances of csteels brother ever eating Indonesian cattle is very low.
In that other thread, clearly some doubts about the people being who they claim, reasons may not, given past actions for some, have been stopping the trade in favor of a dream Halal can make them rich.
Above all,this country must make up its mind ,is the tail to wag our dog.
Are the views of most of us fodder for the very lost but far from voiceless left?
Both party's must grow back bones and find new leaders and ones who can get the country out of the hands of greens.
Gillard please leave!

Belly, I empathise with your position, but I don't even think
its Gillard. Its simply the structure of the Govt that is very
weak, which is a shame really. So she is totally hamstrung by
this situation.

*because any good business sector shouldn't be ignoring it.*

Csteele, most Australian meat is actually exported, so the locals
are less important. To put it bluntly, your brother clearly acted
irrationally, for of course his meat was slaughtered locally. The
less meat he eats, the more might land up as live exports on a boat,
because it all has to go somewhere.

Eventually it might dawn on him that he gave up meat for no reason
other then to feel better, for totally irrational reasons. Let him
eat lettuce, others will enjoy their chops and roasts, slaughtered
humanely. We'll see how long he lasts until he is back eating meat.

Most vegans do it for deeply ideological reasons. But they don't
even agree with shooting foxes and other vermin, they think we
should put them all on the pill. Most of it is based on a book
called "Animal Liberation" by philosopher David Singer.

Yabby

>> Most of it is based on a book
called "Animal Liberation" by philosopher David Singer. <<

Sometimes I think you get your ideas out of breakfast cereal packets. Vegetarians have been a part of the human population since we climbed out of the trees.

There is nothing wrong with not eating meat nor is there anything wrong with improving the conditions for the animals from which we derive much of our protein.

I really have to wonder just what you (and Belly) are objecting to? Change? Your vested interests?

Dear belly,

Jeez mate, some times it just isn't all about politics. This is also about ethics and good business practices.

If you are determined to stand in a corner screaming it is all the Green's fault then I suppose that is your right but if others see your actions as narrow-focussed foolishness then don't be surprised.

Most Australians know when something is broken and are prepared to get on with it and get the damn thing fixed.

There might be some discussion on how that should be achieved but just sticking your head in the sand and blaming others ain't going to get it done.

You forgot to point out, Ammonite, that David came from the corn
flakes packet, for of course its Peter Singer, so much for my
memory.

Peter Singer has indeed had a huge influence on the vegan movement
and various animal liberation groups. IIRC he was also one of the
founders of Animals Australia, which represents all sorts of animal
groups.

Did you note the word "most" in my claim? Perhaps as usual,
you paid no notice. Yes veggies have existed for ages, but that
has little to do with the profound effect that Singer has had
on the Australian scene. He actually went to university with
alot of the people who are trying to close down the live trade
today.

Dear Yabby,

From the Australian on the 7th:

"THE Australian Meat Industry Council yesterday called on Canberra to suspend all live cattle exports to Indonesia after domestic sales dropped 15 per cent in the last week."

"AMIC executive Tom Maguire warned that the slump in domestic sales -- following a week of reports of cattle being tortured in Indonesian abattoirs -- could outstrip any shutdown of the entire live export industry, worth more than $1 billion annually."

"Mr Maguire called on the federal government -- which last week halted exports to 12 Indonesian abattoirs -- to suspend the trade of all cattle to Indonesia immediately to restore faith in the industry."

Seems there are quite a few 'irrational' Australians making ethical decisions. Domestic sales still account for over 40% of the industry. If you are happy to see it take a 15% hit and laugh it off then I think the producers should be damn glad they don't have someone like yourself in charge.

People like Mr Maguire aren't trying to tell people they are irrational he is too busy trying to restore faith in his industry and stop the hemorrhaging of customers. It is pragmatic and good business. In his world your ideology is worse than unhelpful.

Yabby

Very artful, making YOUR mistakes out to be mine. Kudos.

However, you still haven't made your case for business-as-usual.

Vested Interests?

*If you are happy to see it take a 15% hit and laugh it off then I think the producers should be damn glad they don't have someone like yourself in charge.*

One week's sales? ROFL Csteele. I worry about the big picture,
not the little picture. If all those cattle not shipped start
flooding into southern markets, then beef producers will indeed
have something to worry about. If the live trade closed, it would
be an absolute disaster for them.

As head of the cattle council, I would have been one of the few
people with the power to question MLA on how they spend their
resources. I would certainly have pushed for an increase in
animal welfare spending long ago, as I have made plain.

Ammonite, I have made my position very clear, many times on OLO,
but perhaps you don't bother to read most of the posts and just
blow in late. I am part of WA agriculture and for WA agriculture
the live trade is absolutaly critical. I have not sold anything
to the live trade for a number of years, but I acknowledge their
vital importance. In times of drought we need to be able to move
animals in a hurry. I would sell to them tomorrow if I had to,
rather then see my farm blow away.

No defense for me Ammonite, I am acting in some,s self interests.
Australia's, its remote and near cattle breeders, and in admitting wrong the cattle them selves.
Now in every post I have so far seen, yabby has said like me, cruelty has to stop.
But we sin, we say exports must continue.
Now us, yabby and I stand charged with being blind to one side of the case.
Heard about glass houses have we?
It is what the market wants live meat not packed.

I'm a meat eater not a vegan simply because that's the way I've been raised and that's what I'm used to cooking. I've never really looked into vegan recipes as such unless you count things like potato pancakes and other potato dishes. Beef, pork, chicken, lamb, veal, are all part and parcel of our household eating. However I must admit that since seeing that news report on how animals are treated - I've never stopped to think about what goes on in abbatoirs. And this thread has also presented another persepctive - from the farmers point of view. We can only trust that things will be worked out correctly by our government to everyone's satisfaction.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/cattle-cruelty-checks-may-extend-worldwide/story-fn59niix-1226077160224
How does this link fit in with the cattle men do not care mob?
If it was not for the fact vegans do not eat meat crow may be on the menu for some.

Belly

Your link proves nothing.

Whatever suggestion I or others have made such as reopening abattoirs, improving conditions for live animals exports, training people from other countries has been met with nothing but scorn from Yabby and yourself.

Most vegans are not extremists, another fact you choose to ignore, nor do they want to enforce meat-eaters (and I am one) to become vegan.

And NOW you claim you sincerely want to reduce cruelty to animals?

Words fail me.

*Whatever suggestion I or others have made*

Ammonite, all heart and a lack of informed opinion, is not going
to do it for you. All you have displayed so far is your naivety
about the industry. Trying to reinvent the wheel won't do it either,
I am afraid. There has been plenty of work gone on to improve
welfare on boats. Are you even aware of the new purpose built
boats involved in trade? We've explained why opening local plants
makes no sense, if they are not viable for both the owners and
producers. It clearly went over your head. It is pointless training
people, if they don't have the correct frigging equipment to do
the job, which is why Belly and I have made suggestions to solve
that. As it happens MLA already does alot of training of people
all along the supply chain.

On the other thread you suggested that Gertrude was a breath of
fresh air, apparently with all the answers. IMHO you showed
very poor judgement. But find that our for yourself.Gertrude
indeed means well, that is about all.

IMHO your real problem is that you have a problem with people like
me, who call a spade a spade. Sorry, I don't do the touchy feely
stuff to try to win brownie points, I write what I think.

Yabby,

I am breaking a promise to myself coming back here.
Gertrude has never claimed to have all the "answers.

All that was asked was for AA and RSPCA National WSPA etc to meet with the only Muslim Animal Welfare Organization with a programe to faze out live exports & improve slaughter methods in Australia.

I cant see how that is so unreasonable. Why exclude the Muslim animal welfare organization why!! What is their crime- that they care about animals? That their Muslims what!
These people passed a motion in congress in 2008 to ban live exports and we walked alone.

Nobody supported it. AA and RSPCA Nation WSPA even refused to post that on their web site WHY! They have been rejected from having anything to say.

*At the same time being in charge of Halal accreditation's in Australia*
It is more a Muslim Animal welfare problem that anybodies. Without support for the Muslim Animal welfare organization program overseas accreditation WILL take over. Its big biz getter bigger-
http://www.worldhalalforum.org/main.html

While we want our animals all pre stun. HKM Muslim Animal Welfare Organization also wants to at least have what must be processed off shore done in Malaysia & Indonesia because its closer and have accreditation's co- joined for export to ME.

We do NOT want live animals going on long trips.
The contacts are there and the know how BUT so has been the interference. AA refuse to consider they might not have all the answers! leave Ammonite to post in peace Yabby!!
Kerryanne

If anyone watched the BECRUX being loaded for Indonesia last night on Channel 7 Mate they would see that most of the beef stock being exported were Braham and Buffalo. These cattle are suited for the Northern Territory because they are much more resilient. They do not give the fine cuts of beef which we are used to.

Yabby,
BTW HKM Muslim Animal Welfare Program also wants free range as much as *possible.

So thats free range, pre stunning- slaughter the rest slaughtered by stunning close as possible trip = Indonesia Malaysia.

Setting up Animal Welfare groups in all Islamic Schools. So you tell me why they should have been totally SHUNNED/ blocked rubbished for years.

Ludwig is crying about 3 months- Try years knowing a huge difference to the suffering but instead blocked at every turn.

The only thing we regret is loosing good people who love animals because they have been imop purposely mislead. People like Ammonite, and a few others.

Halal accreditation's Yabby are extremely complicated world wide and that includes Australia. So if you want to debate Gertude on that- anytime-

Oh sorry, I forgot Yabbys isn't interested. Excuse me- very sorry for a moment I thought this thread was about Indonesian plants for Halal Slaughter.

Then again even though we cop the pressure with a back lash what on earth would we know about it - we only do the accreditation's.

Silly me Yabby. I will just go crawl back under my rock with the rest of those nasty cruel Muslims.


PS BTW AA You DON'T go and blow something like the 4 corners until you have a programe to make a difference which AA did not want to know about- or you make it harder.

Next time nobody will want to do a story-- look at the farmers! If it doesn't work for farmers- it will NEVER work for animals.

Kerryanne

As the letter to 4 corners from Scott Braithewaite points out, Australia has a significant influence on the development and progress of all sorts of areas (including slaughter) in various countries. Are practices perfect or is every animal treated the way we would prefer? No, but as Scott points out there has been tremendous progress, and new and better practices are being put into place on a very regular basis. Dont be fooled into thinking that progess would have been as quick if westerners had not been involved. As a matter of practicality huge tracts of peoples in Indonesia (and other countries) are extremely impoverished. The welfare of animals is just not high on the agenda for them for obvious reasons. If we care about this at all, we need to acknowledge the changes and improvements brought about by the industry that so many are condemning.

I have no intention of continuing to post in threads the person currently calling them selves KerryAnne uses
Past confrontations with a group was never going to be other than a war.
Ammonite I disagree totally with you in this matter doubt you want trade to recommence no matter what safety is put in place.
While not every Vegan wants to control what others do, far too many do.
See you in another thread yabby and the balanced and fair posters.
This thread strongly, warns us all majority rights are under threat from the truly lost, sometimes vindictive left.

Belly,

You dont like my name- or that I might be Muslim- or that I am aware of the content of past posts. Then dont read it. This is the second time you have taken a shot at Kerryanne. I said nothing the first time but pls given i am well informed on Halal and Halal accreditation / live exports to Indonesia give me the same courtesy I have you.
Now if you dont mind belly- to everybody else - The Halal accreditation's will best best done through JAKIM and AFIS SICHMA ICCV AFIC and our WA SA branches thats us here in AU. TBO Malaysia is better positioned more modern with the ports available " better equipment than Indonesia. (MUI), will need a lot of help from AU. On sentiment its easy to say lets put it all through MU1 but on a practical basis there are so many Islands the best place to make the Halal hub leaving to ME from is Malaysia - with as much as possibly to Indonesia.
From there we export product (not Animals to ME and.
That takes organization and of course the money. We have the know how contacts and friendships but not the $. As for plants here- the $ to invite investors to build on land donated by regional councils is required. The plants in AU are to be owned by the AU public with funds coming from investors to build infrastructure. Its a win for animals and AU.

Country Gal, G,day breeder? Yep but we have to get our act together here too.What a mess- you got Brad ABA sleep at the wheel supporting (never mind) people getting a fortune doing@ to man a web site that doesn't use computers. Screaming that we! want to ban while supporting AA on their site. If it wasn't so serious it would be funny.
Scott isn't the man who put stunners in any plants. Many of us have had dealings with him in the past- not good mate.
How are you: holding up?
Cheers Kerryanne

Sad News

I am sorry to inform those who knew him Tom Hannan the X Federal Leader of AMIEU passed away in NSW 4 weeks ago.

Tom was an advisor and chaired many HKM meetings to Government.

He was a legend in his own right never once wore a suit in 35 years to address Ministers.

A friend a rough diamond with a quick sense of humour, a friend and loved by everybody.

You will be missed old mate .

Travel well Tom

(On that sad note I bid all goodnight.)

Kerryanne

Sheesh Belly & Yabby

I have made valid and rational suggestions. Yes, I would like an end to live export, however, the pragmatist in me knows that this is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable.

There is nothing ignorant or bleeding heart about furthering humane slaughtering practices. Nor is it ignorant to re-open the northern abattoirs. And training overseas people in humane handling of food stock? Is not only good for animals but good for business.

I try to aim for win/win. You guys are doing neither, except remaining stuck with your wheels spinning and running short on fuel.

*You guys are doing neither*

Ammonite, we actually analysed the problem, rather then just come
out with a few feelgood statements. If I gave you a knife and
piece of rope, your attempts at humane slaughter might not
work too well. Perhaps 500 kg of steer might just flatten you
as well. In fact most the things shown in the video over which
people were concerned, would fall away with proper equipment.
So why not provide the proper equipment

*Ammonite, we actually analysed the problem,*

Yabby,

Ammonite has said nothing other than this has to be fixed together with many housewives. Let me assure you without the housewives this country would run at all. It is quite reasonable to expect any decent humane being - male or female- involved in the industry - or not" to speak out about such cruelty. This entire thing lays at the feet of all our Governments. We have seen it before and whats been done to fix it - nothing.
MLA have been derelict and the Government Ministers and advisers are just ploys with no understanding of the Halal Industry. If you think the Muslim People are not upset by those cruel stupid retraining boxes they put in you would be WRONG country girl.
Just for you Ammonite i will share this much. As we speak HKM has arranged to fly a respected in with together with other officials to sort this mess out and yes Ammonite they will be pre stunned. Malaysia is our answer - its as simple as that with a lot of help for Indonesia too . The Government needs to put some funds on the table to make this possible. MLA need to be closed in that area anyway. Brad whom I spoke with at length this morning wants MLA gone So do we because they ARE the problem.

Country girl, You do Scott Braithwaite no favors being bring him into this- or the industry for that matter.

To their great credit AA took him to court or the company years ago
to which I say on behalf of Muslims Australia in that matter at least.
Well done Animals Australia because the Koran says we must be kind to animals and this is not Halal!

Cruelty does not sit well with Australian Muslims

The counter argument re Scotts letter country-girl- which i didnt post before- but as you seem to think he has the answers- your backing the wrong horse.
http://www.opiniononlineforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=507

Sorry typo error- that was HKM are flying in a respected Dr with others - and NO I am not going to post names up here. The last thing they need is to be bombarded with calls.

I can tell you this much though after sorting out the four hundred thousand head of cattle in limbo and thats after Indonesia now do the over hundred thousand the focus will be from HKM to re- open more plants here. It will take time but we are only kidding ourselves if we think live exports can be stopped over night.
The focus must now be to set our friends up in Indonesia for *proper pre stunned accreditation- but with all the Islands in mind there- its got to be Malaysia as the world Halal hub long term
One day much more will be done right here in Australia.

That will be organized by the Muslims themselves through their tradings and accreditation systems and HKM has a long road ahead.
mean time we have to help the animals and farmers.
Without looking after Aussie farmers this country is going down the tube.
There are some good farmers out there upset about how their animals are treated who just want a fair go.
Lets give them one.

The are the salt of this nation.

For chrissakes Yabby. Strawman argument much?

My slaughtering abilities remain with shooting and dressing rabbits.

I leave mass scale slaughter to the experts and so should you, having demonstrated you understand very little of humane practices.

*My slaughtering abilities remain with shooting and dressing rabbits.*

Well exactly, Ammonite. You know very little about this topic
and being a sensitive petal, are pissed off when somebody
points that out when you post uninformed rubbish.

If you had bothered to check what Belly and I actually suggested,
it was that people like Roger Fletcher and Temple Grandin get
involved in designing functional and humane equipment for the
third world. Chris Back, a senator as well as livestock vet
points out that if you don't want animals heads thrashing
around, use a restraint.

What came out in the videos was that the present MLA boxes
are simply unsuitable and part of the problem, on that everyone
agrees. Beaurocrats are clearly not the best people to design
livestock equipment. Even the Govt seems to agree, having just
sent a delegation of vets to Indonesia to see what can be done
about the boxes.

So it comes down to the equipment provided, and our point was
that more of it should be rolled out in the third world, if
we want to make a difference.

You just stick to rabbits.

Now now Yabby. I agree with just about everything you say. However Ammonite and yourself are not that far about. True Ammonite does not understand your reasoning for why Australian Abbatoirs cannot re-open (I do), but personal attacks dont help.

Ammonite, Yabby has kept a pretty consistent line of reasoning, and he is pretty on the money. Seasonability (particularly in WA and the NT)combined with remote locations and oppressive employment conditions and expense all conspire to make the operation of local slaughter facilities a distant memory. If there was money in it, there would be someone having a go.

Kerryanne, this thread had nothing to do with halal - its about making sure the other side of the story is heard. That's about the only response I can come up with for you... learn how to construct a meaningful sentence (and then meaningful argument), and I will happily debate with you. At the very least, please read before you post, and that way you have some hope of making sense.

Kerryanne, this thread had nothing to do with halal

Australian influence on abattoir practices in Indonesia

Hilarious, this whole issue of the thread that you opened is over Halal accreditation for goodness sake.

Indonesia is a Muslim country

I am sorry if you do not know the accreditation codes so you can follow the real problem.

Never mind I will let the Muslims know that you have all the answers- They could do with a laugh right now.

Ammonite was one of a few that made good arguments and i mainly kept posting for her/ his information.

Yabby knows zilch about Halal accreditation which is the basis of our abattoir trade in Indonesia. May I suggest you dont open a thread if you dont have ant knowledge on the topic.

Good luck sorting out the abattoirs in Indonesia without Halal dear- you will sure need it:)

Kerryanne,
If you want to promote Halal killing in Aus, or promote more cattle slaughter in Indonesia or Malayasia, then go for it. Right now we have a problem with exporting cattle to Indonesia that requires urgent attention. There is no reason why the government cannot lift the bans to allow some abittoirs in Indonesia to receive our stock. That is the crucial thing at this point. I do not particularly care about the ins and outs of Halal killing, just that the slaughter is done in the best possible way.

I recall debate here on OLO years ago between PALE and others about Halal killing here, and it seems like a war is still going on between animal rights groups about this. Halal killing is being done here now as my local abittoirs carries it out.

Have a look at your last post on page 8 and ask yourself if it makes sense to anyone else reading it.

Country Gal, I seem to recall that you are an accountant. You would
clearly understand the need for a business to be profitable to all,
ie suppliers, the business and customers. If that is not the case,
that business won't survive. Something like 80% of businesses which
open, don't survive. It is because people don't pay attention to
these basic realities. But it is something which many who want to
ban the live trade, simply cannot grasp.

The Indonesian trade is in effect a very efficient supply chain, with
benefits all round. People forget the thousands of small Indonesian
farmers who supply the feedlots with cattle feed and what they stand
to lose.

Accreditation of Indonesian meatworks is best left to the Indonesians, when it comes to Halal. As their Mufti has explained,
if the animals were treated in a cruel way, the meat is not Halal.

As to Ammonite, she has a habit of being "difficult". If she dishes
it out, she will get it back.

The good news is that the weekend demonstrations against the live
trade, were pretty much a failure.

In Perth, farmers doing their own demonstrating, outnumbered the
100 or so vegans who turned up, by 4 to 1. In Sydney there were 400-1000.
Given the 5 million or so population, pretty well peanuts.

We had the same old animal liberation crowd there.So overall pretty
much a fizzer.

Dear Yabby,

Still with your head in the sand mate. First laughing off a drop in local beef sales then saying the whole protest against what has happened is a fizzer? Gee that's really smart, particularly for someone who wishes to see live meat exports continue from this country.

Last night we had a number of people around to watch a televised football match (go the Catters). I was asked to sign a petition against live exports addressed to our local member. When I asked where it had come from the reply was "off the Internet". This person, a meat eater, had taken the trouble to seek one out, print it, and bring it along to gather signatures on the night. They had never in my knowledge done anything like this before. Everyone signed, all this after a rather excellent Indian beef curry my wife had dished up.

To be laughing this off is just plain dumb. The export industry needs to take the six months to help the government to get this thing right. To just be sitting there lobbing hand grenades is not going to do one jolt for public sentiment, if anything it is going to stiffen the resolve and you may well lose the lot.

Finally very few vegetarians are vegans. Your constant describing them as such is childish.

*Everyone signed, all this after a rather excellent Indian beef curry my wife had dished up.*

A petition eh, Csteele? I remember on one of the ABC Geek programmes,
they did an experiment with petitions. They drew one up to ban water
and make it illegal, most people just signed. How many people
felt strongly enough to turn up yesterday? Bugger all is the reality.

*The export industry needs to take the six months to help the government to get this thing right.*

It will probably take longer then that to sort it out everywhere,
but now that MLA are prepared to spend money on it, we will start to
see solutions. Some of those supply chains are already closed and
ready to go, such as the modern abattoirs in Indonesia who already
use stun guns and put through volume. Shipping no cattle for
6 months would be an absolute disaster, the law of unintended
consequences kicks in. When Northern cattlemen have to get out the
guns to shoot cattle because they have nowhere to go, will those
cameras be there then?

Fact is that if a steer went on a boat tomorrow, it would be three
months before it came out the other side of a feedlot. That is
plenty of time to sort things out. Once again Csteele, good
intentions are not enough. Banning all shipments for 6 months could
actually create a far bigger problem then you have now.

Heres a website where people can vote in support of beef producers

http://www.asbf.com.au/receipt.php#response

I think the Csteele has just shot himself in the foot by admitting
to signing a petition, without the foggiest notion of the
unintended consequences, should it be taken seriously.

Kerryanne,
If you want to promote Halal killing in Aus, or promote more cattle slaughter in Indonesia or Malayasia, then go for it. Right now we have a problem with exporting cattle to Indonesia that requires urgent attention. There is no reason why the government cannot lift the bans to allow some abittoirs in Indonesia to receive our stock. That is the crucial thing at this point. I do not particularly care about the ins and outs of Halal killing, just that the slaughter is done in the best possible way.

I recall debate here on OLO years ago between PALE and others about Halal killing here, and it seems like a war is still going on between animal rights groups about this. Halal killing is being done here now as my local abittoirs carries it out.

Have a look at your last post on page 8 and ask yourself if it makes sense to anyone else reading it.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 19 June 2011 9:24:06 AM

Banjo,
Fair enough comment. Yes I can see now the problem. I was speaking in terms behind the problem thinking some would follow- mostly AA friends. So as this is about abattoirs in Indonesia, I am going to do my best to make sense out of the page 8 post you mentioned and BTW apologies i should have stopped to consider others.

- This whole issue with Indonesia is in fact a holy war over Halal accreditation-

The war is to be battled out right here in Australia very soon
( again)

Indonesia you know is a Muslim country. Halal must be eaten. Halal is the way in which an animal is killed. In Indonesia Mr Lukman Hakim from Indonesia’s peak Islamic body, Indonesia Ulema Council (MUI), In Australia in 2003 there were 6 accreditation Authority's- now well over 150. What 1s is really going on -is the usual fight for the Halal accreditation. Its never been more vital. That will be fought here regarding Australian Animals right here shortly. This is why RSPCA, AA have shifted their attention.

*There is no reason why the government cannot lift the bans to allow some abattoirs in Indonesia to receive our stock.*

Here are some of the problems-
At best Indonesia "if we get the best plants operating to humane standards can only handle- around 140 thousand. That leaves over four hundred thousand stuck. Many would have gone into feed lots.

First of all they have to get proper equipment which complies with Halal Accreditation according to "their Halal accreditation's standards.

MLA put the wrong equipment in the better plants but these guys have zero. RSPCA wants animals pre stunned but to many this is haram ( forbidden) So once again it all comes back to which Islamic Council is doing the accreditation's.
Banjo said.
Halal killing is being done here now as my local abattoirs carries it out.

Yes Halal is done here correct. Most animals are pre stun with 90% of Muslims accepting the more humane method of pre stunning.
So in Australia we have far too many Halal certifying bodies which is badly in need of a national accreditation.

It didnt help that the low life MLA introduced their own brand allowing animals to be killed slowly.

So MLA has to go and the primitive imans that are pushing for slaughter without pre stunning not only here but world wide. The OIE need to lift their game.( world Authority animal welfare)

Fact is Indonesia and hundreds of other countries have killed our Australian Animals just like we saw on 4 corners for years and RSPCA AA rightfully oppose it.

The codes were the different Halal accreditation councils- again sorry i should have thought. Trust me its all about Halal accreditation because they dont *want to pre stun.

I promise this is my last post here and clearly state I will continue to be a refugee from PALE and its latest reincarnation.
First voted Banjo thanks.
If readers care to look back, at threads like the car park.
Or car park two.
20 ,many more threads started by PALE, you will see much of KerryAnne posting style there.
From the near crawling verbal arm over the shoulder, the pro then anti RSPCA AA posts.
I think you could be forgiven for thinking PALE exists more to set up its often quoted Halal meat export business than halt animal cruelty.
Malaysia was given as heart of the future business how do the cattle get there? first class airline seats?
Its love affair with the meat industry union is shown as a positive, yet that union,I have been a member, is extreme left AND CRAFTS LIES to gain advantage.
Banjo yabby and I attract insults like exposed meat will flys, but truth is the big country never was or will be just our city's.
I remind my fellow realists, this debate has been fought, we have had peace here for a time.
See the links,in KerryAnne first posts under this name here, seemingly trying to get us to come visit another forum.
Just maybe in replying to this group we give them air, I will not do so.
Good and wise people can be found in any group, I do not see them here defending animals armed with understanding.

Banjo
Yes you are correct the Australian Muslim leaders would long term prefer Animals were slaughtered *here ad pre stun under their Australian Halal accreditation Society's. In fact The Australian Muslim Leaders passed a motion in Congress in 2008 and lobbied the federal Government to Ban live exports themselves. They asked the Federal Government to work on fazing eventually export ALL Halal from Australia plants under Australian standards of Halal accreditation's. Australian Halal accreditation authority also wish for now live exports to continue and to humane accreditation using updated equipment into Indonesia & Malaysia. Malaysia is well positioned to be the Halal hub of the world. Exporting from their to ME Halal accredited products and elsewhere. That sorts out all the problems and allows live exports to continue-.

*Malaysia was given as heart of the future business how do the cattle get there?*
Belly, Wellards normally do those runs-
Ask Yabby ships! How do u think they get to Saudi?
You have been constantly aggressive to me. Dont make me push that button.

Well said csteele,

Nobody is trying harder than us to resume the live trade with proper accreditation's for farmers and animals.
but these guys keep shooting themselves in the foot! by showing the public they dont care about the cruelty and want business as usual- BIG MISTAKE!
If its not fixed with a proper Halal Authority involved for AU Animals more footage will appear after the inquiry and then the public will demand a complete end.
No Government will be able to smooth it over-- Its their funeral. They SHOULD be screaming about the cruelty if they want public onside-- but its their funeral.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/slaughterhouse-operator-apologises-for-cruelty-20110601-1fgrl.html

That article explained the whole thing quite well and also the
solutions. The country's top religous authority has declared
the cruelty as sinful and accepts stun guns. That is what matters.

In Australia various Islamic groups squabble about accreditation,
for I gather a levy to them is paid on every head, which would
add up to serious money for jam each year.

Ammonite
Is not far off the mark- quite reasonable and fair but 20 years ahead of time. Of course Ammonite one day the Abattoirs will reopen again in Australia and the Muslim people will drive that themselves. It will be again sorted out by way of accreditation's with MOUs and JV in our language. For now and probably always we look to Malaysia to play a big role. I the mean time we have a brand new Islamic council being built due to open in 5 weeks. You will here about it via media,. It will be opened by a Minister and we will work united with each state of Australia with other Halal accreditation Authoitys. We oppose Animals not being pre stun. For the first time unity on this- bar a few old timers.. Its all over bar the shouting. AFIS Australian federation Islamic Society HKM programe will respect Animals.
Heading this -
1. Dr Ameer Ali- Former advisor to the Howard Government on Islamic affairs
2. Dr Munir Hussain-10 years experience with AFIC and 11 years in SICHMA on Halal products
3. Mr Faisal Muhammed- Halal meat supervisor in Queensland for 10 years
4. Mr Assad Elasic – President of Islamic Coordinating Council of Victoria (ICCV)there are others but space.

All working under the Halal Kind Meats Animal Welfare Organization with the founder of HKM PALE. It is the only Muslim Animal Welfare Organization in Australia
Australian Muslims do not tolerate Animal Cruelty and the secrets in whom does the accreditation's. Same as in Indonesia.

Banjo I have done my best not to use codes and we want this sorted for our farmers asap and the Animals.

Yabby,

Spot on! You do understand. Yes the squabbles that has gone on for years. Not so much money ATM TBO . Its more about lining up for whats to come. Halal in five years will be huge. On top of that its the old timers( some of them) still battle not to pre stun and you cant shift them. Most spend their time on a plane traveling from country to country armed with the Koran screaming at the poor guys for d the accreditation's at the importing side. These people also give funding to different Islamic Councils throughout Australia. Its all a bit of a nightmare. I will give you one example. Egypt wanted a huge order of Halal meat. They wanted them slaughtered using our bolt method- good. One of our Aussie accreditation guys refused saying it wasn't Halal. Hopeless!

AFIS will be also looking after other Non Muslim countries.
They are Australian people wanting the best for Australia and humane treatment of Animals. AFIS isn't just for Muslims its for pro Australia and dealing with anybody from any country as it should be.

I never ever respond to threats by running away!
Belly do not make me press that button?
Go for it Gertrude, past threats of legal action from you/PALE are here on record.
In just your last two posts here you tell me clearly who you are.
I now retreat OLO and its well being demand I no longer respond to your threats.
Never, not ever,seen any individual or group threaten so openly before.
Press your button but understand I have no reverse gear and no intent to run.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/slaughterhouse-operator-apologises-for-cruelty-20110601-1fgrl.html

Yabby,
I meant to say thanks for putting that up. Mean time given MLA want to horde the money questions have been asked what can be done to help the farmers with a few donations for their extra feed bills.

I am flat strap but if you wanted to pas the word around happy to also contribute. Lets do something to help our farmers on behalf of the Australian public. It is to be hoped as fast as we can the accreditation's will be sorted and plants updated asap to get the live trade going again for farmers.

This is why HKM wanted AA to work united for years. Rather than do that they say back allowing these animals to suffer by refusing to come to the table for meetings. Senator Ludwig is angry about three months delay. Hes lucky it wasn't years like us.

At the end of the day as you well know if it doesn't work for the farmers it will never work for animals and vise versa.

Belly the only person here casting personal insults has been Yabby - your defense of him does not reflect well.

I suggest that Yabby should leave the field if he cannot play the ball.

On another thread I printed a link to a feasibility study on reopening Abattoirs, looks like it is is required here:

http://www.getfarming.com.au/pages/farming/articles_view.php?fId=9200020101022084722

The MLA failed to take any action.

On live trade, I agree with Yabby that it is cheaper to ship livestock a bit underweight than over. The cattle sent to Indonesia are then fattened up before slaughter. The issue of no available refrigeration in many parts of Indonesia remains a problem and is why live trade cannot be completely halted. However there is much that can be done to ensure the safe shipment and treatment of livestock - all of which continues to be ignored by the MLA.

The only reasons for the closure of northern abattoirs were financial ones. Here the government could assist. It does so with many industries, aiding the humane treatment of animals would be far more acceptable than many industries that receive government handouts.

On topic of Halal slaughter; Indonesia has many religions, albeit Islam is dominant, but there are significant populations of Christians, Hindus and Buddhists. The images taken by the 4 Corners team were not necessarily of a Halal slaughter yard.

Again, I do not understand why Yabby continues to be so upset by suggestions to increase humane treatment - he himself has made suggestions to improve slaughter methods in previous posts. Seems to me that he does not like anyone making suggestions other than himself.

*The MLA failed to take any action*

Ammonite, it is not the role of MLA to run meatworks. Meat processors
do that. So your claim is flawed.

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/07/21/165831_nt-business.html

The industry does indeed examine those possibilities, at present
the best option is that AAco will go ahead for a meatworks in Darwin,
for cattle that are too heavy for the boats. That is complimentary
to the trade, not a replacement for it. Fact is that trucking
those cattle south, is simply too expensive.

MLA does in fact invest funding in humane handling of livestock,
all the way from farm to the abattoir. Most of their animal welfare
expenditure has gone exactly there. Just not enough at the point
of slaughter, so your comment is again invalid.

Given that you regularly cast personal insults, don't me amazed
if people return them. You deserve them.

Whatever you think of abattoir practices in Indonesia, it's looking increasingly like they won't involve Australian stock, given the legislation currently being introduced by Nick Xenophon and Andrew Wilkie to ban all live exports from Australia within 3 years.

I would have thought that the industry would be able to be conducted humanely if there had been a real will to do so, but official Australian awareness of cruelty within the industry apparently dates back years, and if the indifference to animal welfare we've seen here is in any way representative it's not all that hard to see why.

As I've said before, Australia doesn't need a live exports industry. Rather, it's been up to the industry to demonstrate they can operate in a manner acceptable to the Animal Welfare standards of most Australians. At that, they've failed.

Morgan, just because a couple of politicians have introduced a bill,
hardly shows that they understand the economic complexities involved
in the discussion.

Western Australia certainly does need a live trade, as farmers
demonstrating this weekend showed, by outnumbering vegans by 4 to
1. Try and legislate against that, you will have riots on your
hands.

The question will really come down to the use of stun guns or
not. As it happens, all through country Australia, livestock
are slaughtered without them, even in some meatworks.

IMHO they should be required for cattle, perhaps not for sheep.

All this is still up for debate.

In the end Wilkie and Xehenphon will be rolled, as common sense
and reason will prevail and politicians are not about to destroy
the livelyhoods of thousands of Australians, because those 2 lack
an understanding of agricultural economics.

http://fw.farmonline.com.au/news/state/agribusiness-and-general/general/wa-farmers-unite-for-live-exports/2199472.aspx

There we go, even a West Australian meat processor at the demo,
pointing out that we need the live trade.

WA really should secede from you lot. People have had a gutful.
Then you can live in your banana republic.

Yabby

Disagreeing with you is not a personal insult.

Like I said: play the ball not the man.

*You guys are doing neither, except remaining stuck with your wheels spinning and running short on fuel.*

and

*Sometimes I think you get your ideas out of breakfast cereal packets.*

both Ammonite quotes on this thread. If you can't take it back
darling, don't dish it out.

Just before I lose my phone for the night I found this snippet "Senator Ludwig confirmed Australia will encourage but not insist on stunning the animals before they are killed, but did not say when he thinks the trade will resume."
ABC News tonight.

That is not what I would call getting this right. The live export trade will not get too many more chances. Fix this thing properly or lose it, insist on stun guns ya mug!

*Morgan, just because a couple of politicians have introduced a bill,
hardly shows that they understand the economic complexities involved
in the discussion.*

Yabby,

Your right again as always and I should think by now your WA Minister may have found out how it really works while he sat in his room at our expense like a Turkey because nobody would take him to a plant:)

Just like Senator Ludwig ought to have gone trough the proper channels.
Well I suppose he thought he had. Look if you want to make progress you do it through other accreditation authorities.

Ikebal Patel gave the nod to not pre stunning but hes not going to have power for long. Its all over for Ikebal bar the shouting.
Oh BTW Ikebal just weeks ago called for a ban onlive exports in a media release because of this- Now hes on TV wanting to not stun animals even in Australia. Hes lost the plot I am afraid .
Those coming into power in a very short time will be demanding a total ban on live exports and pre stunning.All Animals are to be pre stun in Australia and of course that means Australian Animals in general. So as csteele, said its fix it or lose it.

Looks like it will be the latter.

BTW Yabby,

Um, those few Ministers have the entire support of every Islamic Society in Australia.

Even Ikebal

Why? Because its cruel/ even though some cant agree on stunning- or pre stunning ALL agree the long trips are Haram Cruel

They hate live exports with a passion- all of them.
Been quite in the past - yep but not much longer. We support RSPCA AA and this bill 100%

Goodnight all Sweet Dreams Yabby

Yabby
The other thing you lot have clearly over looked is this; any product or industry system that relies on just one market needs only one thing to go wrong in that market and the production system collapses. The northern Australian live cattle trade, virtually, relies on one market,Indonesia. Indonesia being Indonesia, is well aware of that. Lets look at whats gone wrong then follow that through with the rest of Australia.
Take WA if you like. Same picture. Its costs $100.00 per cow for transport to ships---- WA with its layout needs smaller plants 500 miles apart. But of course the reluctance is strong and the heads of ABCDEF and pastoral associations shoot off their big mouths to their farmer members NO we need live exports.

These grubs NFF Pastoral association and now even ABA have blocked the path of any investors contacting ""their"" farmers. They are rude beyond belief and imop have utterly corrupted the system.
http://justgroundsonline.com/forum/topics/halal-kind-meats-buying-direct?commentId=3535428%3AComment%3A224428&xg_source=msg_com_forum
Yes says Rob pls tell the farmers about off shore people wanting to meet them with view to invest in plants- um deleted. ABA NFF and the rest do not want plants opened from what i see.
There is no fair game for the red meat market through these guys. Its send em live we dont give a stuff its more money from our agents friends . The kick backs and the trail they leave tells me the entire system must close to change. Live exports will have to be banned because they are misleading their members and not allowing investors in. There job was to represent but not make farmers a nanny state-

Dont try calling them to say G,day got some blocks who want to put up 6 plants through WA etc - or they will tell you to P off! That is what they told Saudi investors looking to meet farmers. great

The NFF ABA MLA Ausmeats just to name a few got into bed with live export agents Elders AWB Landmark Wellards etc. Their members got dragged along with them. But you know that already silly me

They tell us in 40 years Australia will be buying all their fuel from overseas. Now given they dont- or Rob Moore appears not to want to discuss plants - or allow anybody else to on this forum - perhaps they ought to re consider talking with the Saudi investors or others about supplying Aussies with fuel instead. That would be a better solution for all concerned. They put their animals on these death ship knowing! full well how they are treated. As Rob Moore said we are NOT farmers!- You got that right Rob.! There not even smart. To take PRIME beef that we cant buy and put it through all of that to sell for just 3 bucks a kilo is crazy. Australia has always been lazy. Years ago we didnt want the dirty job of working with the wool- so we sent the wool off to others to get the jobs and build the industry and value add.
Then they didnt want the dirty job of meat works and little Johnie with his mate Kerry - pushed and put the whole dam sheep this time on the ships just like the wool
So now we have got zip production in Australia and a world wide reputation of the most cruel country in the world.
I think we are done pleading for compassion and common sense. Time to round up a few live exporters and put them on some specially designed ships!
Now to the oil investors-- either way out you go the lot of you live exporters.
You bring shame to every Australian!

Yabby

Grow up. Your posting history is filled with assumptions and denigrations of people - your housewife taunts are particularly odious to many educated and astute women, your generalisations about people who offer quite rational arguments you dismiss as ignorant - I make a couple of humorous ripostes and you act wounded - crocodile tears methinks. A crusty old farmer should be able to take as much as he dishes out - and believe me, I have been very restrained in my responses to your insults.

I guess when a thread has reached this point it is time to bail. I stand by my measured approach to reducing live exports and improving transport conditions, reopening abattoirs and working with the employees of overseas abattoirs to ensure humane slaughter of animals.

Just a final link:

"A Northern Territory MP is pushing for an Alice Springs abattoir to be revamped, following the live export suspension.

The Wamboden abattoir currently only operates one day a week, processing up to 30 camels.

But Member for Braitling Adam Giles says it could temporarily process cattle from producers in Australia's north.

"There's an opportunity to put through about 120 beasts a day, cattle. I think that we should looking to options in the short term, so we can make sure that properties aren't overstocked."

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201106/s3240651.htm

Yabby.
Its clear to everybody bar you that Ammonite knows more about whats going on than you . If you cant debate a topic get out of the court.
Your personal insults only make you look foolish not the people you toss them at. Btw my cousin Wendy was not banned but told Mr Rob Moore she refused ( after he begged her to) post on just grounds) if he was going to be calling growers on their phones telling me - dont listen etc mostly slurping over a bottle of rum the word has it. Rob apparently also found something on face book written by a Suzanne Caz. Wendy thought the entire direction of Mr Moores comments about this woman disgusting and told him so- and that HKM would no longer be posting. Interestingly however there were about 50 enquiers from farmers interested but Moore wiped those quickly. I once heard the worst forum owner was in QLD but it appears the red neck live exporters take first prize for gagging freedom of speech in Australia.
Dont forget the name - just grounds

justgroundsonline.com/forum

As Ammonite said to you Yabby

"A Northern Territory MP is pushing for an Alice Springs abattoir to be revamped, following the live export suspension.

The Wamboden abattoir currently only operates one day a week, processing up to 30 camels.

But Member for Braitling Adam Giles says it could temporarily process cattle from producers in Australia's north.

"There's an opportunity to put through about 120 beasts a day, cattle. I think that we should looking to options in the short term, so we can make sure that properties aren't overstocked."

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201106/s3240651.htm
Posted by Ammonite, Tuesday, 21 June 2011 10:04:47 AM

Ammonite, indeed I showed that you do not practise what you preach.
The fact that you are capable of extreme vitriol does not change
that. Hypocrite.

All you have shown so far is your naivety about the industry, for
you have raised no issue which the industry itself has not
addressed. Pointing that out, is quite fair and reasonable, even
if the truth hurts.

You and Gertrude clearly forget that we operate a free enterprise
economy. If there is an abattoir anywhere which can handle cattle,
they are free to buy them from pastoralists and process them. That
is between the buyer and the seller, not the job of the Govt.

Anyone can go and build an abattoir and offer to buy cattle.
Gertrude, an asute businessman from anywhere, will do that through
proper channels, like Govt development authorities etc, he will
hardly rely on a Gertrude. But continue with your conspiracy theories.

Csteele, what Australia has done so far is show that we are a
sovereign risk to deal with. The Indonesians correctly point out
that Ludvig should have had the courtesy to inform his Indonesian
counterpart before introducing a blanket ban. They also say that
they were never told the rules, again a Govt failure.

Australia cannot in good concience enforce stun guns, whilst
Australia does not enforce that rule here. It does not. Quite
a number of abattoirs are licensed to use the knife. Ludwig
would be aware that he will have some of the Islamic lobby and
the Jewish lobby jumping up and down, if he tries to change that.
Meantime all around country Australia people dress their own sheep
and they don't do it with stun guns. I've seen plenty of vets use
a knife, when they are about to do an autopsy.

So realpolitik remains. As there is an urgent need to resolve the
issue, Ludwig is pushing for humane slaughter, but IMHO most
export companies in their own closed systems will install stun guns
anyhow, as Elders and others have already done. The traceback system
makes sense, as if there is a problem it can be shown which company
poses that problem. As it is, Elders already own their own abattoir,
feedlot and boat, their system is ok, but yet it was still their
cattle that were stranded in Port Hedland, for no good reason at all.

*Australia does not enforce that rule here.*

Press Release
The Australian Federation of Islamic Societies (AFIS) and Halal Kind Meets (HKM) Animal Welfare Organization and Halal accreditation Authority strongly oppose the export of live cattle abroad and support the process of stunning the cattle before halal or non-halal slaughtering. The process of stunning should be applied to the animal while it is standing on its feet. The intensity of stunning should be such that if the animal is left un-slaughtered it should be able to get up and walk away.
In order to minimize the level of stress and anxiety to the cattle it is imperative that when an animal is being slaughtered the other animals should be isolated and kept away.
Stunning is the most humane way of making the animals unconscious before slaughtering and it ensures that they suffer the least pain.
This method of stunning complies with the States and Federal legislation's.

All of God’s creatures deserve compassion and humane treatment!

The President of Muslims Australia (AFIC), Mr Ikebal Patel expressed serious concern and sadness at media reports and images of cruel treatment of Australian cattle in Indonesian abattoirs. Mr Patel stated, “Islam places great importance on the care and consideration of all God’s creatures. It implies a duty to animal welfare, both during the rearing and during the slaughter.”
Muslims Australia (AFIC) is committed to animal welfare in Halal accreditation services and has partnered with Halal Kind Meats to reinforce this message. The Halal Kind Meat concept incorporates the interests of rural industry leaders, animal rights groups, AFIC Halal certification services, all realise potential prosperity combined with compassion and good business sense to achieve equitable outcomes for all, said Mr Patel.
Muslims Australia (AFIC), during its National Federal Congress meeting in 2008 called on the Australian Government to cease live exports immediately. AFIC Federal Congress members agreed live cattle/sheep export is traumatic for the animal during the journey and as evidenced, cruel inhumane and un-Islamic at their destination. Muslims Australia (AFIC) again calls on the government to cease live exports and promote Halal slaughter in Australia under the supervision of Islamic authorities and the AQIS.
Mr Patel emphasized the leading and important role Muslims Australia (AFIC) undertakes with the Department of Primary Industry and AQIS to ensure humane and compassionate treatment of all livestock is enforced in order to comply with Halal standards throughout the process of Halal slaughter and the premium status of Australian Meat industry.
Mr Patel also welcomed and endorsed comments by Mr Lukman Hakim from Indonesia’s peak Islamic body, Indonesia Ulema Council (MUI), who stated the inhumane treatment of animals in Indonesian abattoirs is “sinful and would be investigated”.
End

*Australia does not enforce that rule here.*

Gertude, you know full well that I am correct. The opinions of
some Muslims are exactly that.

Fact. Some abattoirs operate in Australia without stunning.
Don't try and deny it when you previously admitted it.

MOTION 3 FROM ISLAMIC COUNCIL AUSTRALIA

“That this 44th AFIC Congress declares that the practice of live animal (cattle, sheep and goats)
exports from Australia is inherently cruel and is contrary to Islamic teachings on the treatment of Animals.

The Congress calls upon the Federal Government to immediately cease the issuing of export permits
for this trade and introduce legislation into Federal Parliament to permanently ban live animal exports.

The Congress urges all State Council and Member Societies to participate in a campaign with like minded organizations to achieve this goal’’

Hehe Gertrude, you mean they want all the levies paid here to them, instead?

Fact. Australia has some abattoirs who don't use stunning,
some operated by Muslims.

Yabby,
The devil is in the detail. If you look closer you will see it
F or S Get it.?

Posted both to demonstrate that on the Ban Live Exports there is *complete unity.

When 4 Corners went to air, sharing the vision of horror and revulsion the majority, of the people had a distinct feeling of déjà vu.

Next raid from Animals Australia & RSPCA is probably already in cutting room doing Indonesia or maybe @@@ There’s a thought?

There are hundreds- no thousands of people and members of different organizations world wide taking footage with heaps of inside workers.

You would be silly if you thought( I will state the obvious ) that Gertrude and many "friends"didnt have accesses world wide. So you see Yabby dearest to quote me - it really is all over bar the shouting(& yes there will be plenty of that.)

We question what livestock producers have been doing with ‘their’ organizations.?

The pity of it all is the real farmers that had been misled will be effected. And for that purpose only the calls for an immediate has been lifted to fazing out within three years. ALL live exports. You will have your white wash inquiry again but- Oops! whats happens when the public get another lot of footage before them. The Government need to consider that like..
""very real"" risk.

Abuse and questioning motives or even the authenticity of their footage will be met with public derision and ridicule.
Just like you thought it was so smart for those people rocking up to protests- Wrong move. All that did was disgust the public at the lack of concern for their animals- & rightfully so.
We* of course know they were not farmers but middle grubs with vetted interests.

The problem with the arrogant industry apart from barbaric cruelty being a daily business, is they dont understand Halal or the word Halal accreditation's- or how that world works.

As the rise of Halal they will import less- involve their own system.
Your guys with ‘their’ industry were never anything but a disposable commodity.

Yabby, you remember correctly! Yes, I am very aware of one of the major underlying issues being profitability. Kerryanne completely misses the point about why there are not more Australian abbatoirs running is profitability. Workers need to be paid at a minimum wage, and if you want them to be there when slaughtering demand is there you need to pay them year round, whether there is work or not. Minimum conditions need to be supplied, which is also costly. Seasonality is the main reason why businesses in the remoter areas of Australia (including WA) cannot make enough of a buck to warrant opening. Even in the populous East, meatworks are closing due to unprofitability.

Kerryanne, you miss so many points, where should I start.

The wool processing industry was moved offshore for the same reason that a lot of other manufacturing has been - Australian government imposed minimum conditions made it too expensive. Its not workers refusing to work there because of the dirty noisy work (ever worked in a shearing shed or a dairy?). Its because of restrictions imposed on wages, conditions, safety, environmental standards etc. Some of these things are very morally correct, but the simple economics of it means that our producers and businesses lose out to imports from countries where those conditions are not imposed. I dont like this anymore than you do but its the nature of business. Very few of the morally elite that cry out about what Australian businesses are doing to their workers, or doing to the environment have any qualms about buying the cheapest products that they can. Its completely hypocritical, but then that seems to be the nature of the human condition.

And BTW, if you read the headline of the thread, halal is not mentioned. You have introduced it to this discussion. To say the ban is about halal is being deceptive, as Yabby has pointed out there are halal abbatoirs in this country, some use stunning some dont. Some in Indonesia use stunning, some dont. The fuss has been over some practices in some abbatoirs,not all, or halal.

Country Gal, great to read your informed post. We need more informed
country women to post on OLO! There are quite alot of them on the
internet, just not on this site.

Gertrude, ultimately you cannot win, because everything you believe
is based on emotion and not reason. Ultimately reason will prevail.
The public might be hoodwinked for a short time, but that is all.

If live exports were to be banned tommorrow, by the next change
of Govt, they would be back. Meantime the public would see farmers
going broke, lifestock shot with no place to go, the cost to
the economy and jobs, the great animal welfare practises where
its done right, not just a biased vegan campaign video which was
hardly factual of the overall industry.

You people have spent years and countless money on your obsession
to end the live trade. If you had spent that on installing some
humane equipment in the third world, countless animals would benefit.
None of you have seemingly bothered. So alot of that suffering
is on your heads, as you could have done something, but did not.
If its not Australian well bad luck. As I've pointed out before,
you are basing your complete argument on a false premise.

Ammonite, I applaud your optimism. I agree that in time perhaps better solutions can be reached. The proposal about expanding the operation of the camel processing works however fails to address the issue of what to do with the meat. Markets do not change overnight, whether we want them to or not. At the moment the market that these cattle have been provided to demands live animals slaughtered locally. However much we might want that to be different, shipping in meat slaughtered in Australia to most of these areas previously serviced by live exports is not going to work quickly. By the time new markets have been found, the problem with the slaughtering practices will have been able to have been addressed. Its a feel-good solution and I can understand why it appeals, but the practicality is limited. I have clients trying to source export markets (not for livestock), and it will take two years to develop and risk-assess a target market and start testing it. It wont take that long to fix the current problem. I guess that's what frustrates me about the situation.

fhttp://justgroundsonline.com/forum/topics/halal-kind-meats-buying-direct?commentId=3535428%3AComment%3A224428&xg_source=msg_com_forum
CG said

Kerryanne, this thread had nothing to do with halal - its about making sure the other side of the story is heard.

CG For anybody to say( and I remind you of the title of this thread)

**Australian influence on abattoir practices in Indonesia**
this has nothing to do with Halal certification is seriously out of touch with reality. Indonesia is a Muslim country and Halal certification and Australian influence on abattoir in Indonesia has a lot to do with it. As of the 21/6/2011 that bar got got raised.

I know you have no idea of what I am talking about but the others DO. I want to make it really clear to you that I do not want to waste my time talking with you. We are very busy people and truth is I post here sometimes to let other informed people know how we are supporting RSPCA AA and many others from our side. I find it particularly offensive for a women ( if you are) to support such an evil trade.It really turns my stomach. So you can write whatever rude abusive comments you wish but know i wont read anything you write.
Your disgusting support for Wellards Braithwaite is enough for me.
Who btw hasn't had the guts to contact us.

kerryanne, I know that logic and you are not close friends, however surely you can see that the issue is not halal, it is the method of slaughter. I repeat Australian abbatoirs manage halal slaughter humanely, and there is no reason why Indonesia cannot as well. In fact the best way we have of influencing them to change (as has been happening)is to be involved and supportive. If you cannot see that then I am afraid that you have another agenda that you are trying to push.

Whether I am a woman or not should have no influence over whether I support a particular trade or industry - havent you heard of the concept of equality between the sexes?? I am a realist and a pragmatist. People want to eat meat (our biology actually demands it), Australia can supply a need to another part of the world, we dont like the way we treat the animals we send them, we do what we can to change that. Its really quite simple concept. Anyone who supports Australia withdrawing from the trade cant claim to be concerned about animal welfare - as others have pointed out on this and other thread, the treatment in question will continue if we have nothing to do with it, its just animals from other countries. However for a lot of armchair activists, this is either perfectly acceptable or their logic is seriously lacking to the point where they cannot foresee consequences.

Country Gal

Thank you!

I felt like I was stuck in the mud with MY wheels spinning given Yabby's selective reading of my posts.

Good to know you are out there - I wish we had more farmers posting for a wider range of views.

Australia is being a tad hypocritical with its attitude towards Indonesia. Many years ago I recall sitting on the fence of a corral while calves were being castrated - no time for anaesthetic, their testicles were swiftly sliced off. Their mothers all stood outside the corral mooing and keening - like any mother would. One young calf who was clearly older than the others (more bullish) was free to go - I swear he swaggered around the yard, he knew he had escaped something.

Farming is tough, but we ARE making changes as we find better ways to handle livestock. However, I do not share your view of Yabby, seeing him as part of the problem rather than the solution.

I am unlikely to change my opinion of you, Yabby, while you persist with your completely uncalled for insults.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/ritual-slaughter-without-stunning-raises-domestic-cruelty-concerns-20110621-1gdlk.html

There we go, like magic this turns up today in the SMH. 12 abattoirs
in Australia don't stun. That was my point.

Ammonite, I really don't give a stuff as to your opinion of me.
I am not here to win your brownie points. I make points of reason,
which is what good debate is all about. The rest simply does not
matter.

Hi Dickybird,
I totally agree with your comments on live export and the recent abbatoir practices in Indonesia. The "armchair" experts will always
express a simplistic solution to these problems without pause for thought towards the outcome, which in this case has been disastrous.
I too cannot bear cruelty to any animal, but it is not for me to 'step in' on 'other cultural slaughtering', perhaps a stronger surveillance on abbatoir practices might be deemed appropriate.
Noisy Scrub Bird.

Ammonite, I am not a farmer, but come from good farming stock and retain strong links. On these types of forums (not that I regularly get much time on them, as I also run a business with 12 staff, am married with 2 young kids and volunteer where I can) - I try to ensure that there is a balanced viewpoint from what I understand and can research. There are too many armchair activists that propose all sorts of wonderful things, that are often completely impractical. However to be fair many people would not know the impraticalities as they have no experience in the areas. Yabby I have a lot of respect for because he is consistent, knowlegable and practical, often saying that it would nice for something to be a certain way, but that its just not, so get on with it.

I understand squeamishness with watching some animal husbandry practices, but again people need to look at the practical realities. I used to help with lamb-marking every year, which included muelsing without numbing. Its not nice, but the alternative is worse. Farmers are generally aware of the pain inflicted on their animals and seek to minimise it. However sometimes the costs are prohibitive, and a cost/benefit decision needs to be reached. However inhumane slaughter is inflicting pain for no benefit to the animal at all (muelsing is designed to stop fly-strike, neutering is designed to reduce injury between animals etc). Given that I grew up with such practices and am able to look at both sides of the argument, I feel that I have an obligation to ensure that there is discussion of all aspects. Many farmers are able to articulate their reasonings, and many are not (and many dont want to, why should they - they dont tell you how to run your business or do your job). Those of us that are willing and able need to stand up and be counted.

Country Gal

As long as we continue to communicate and respect each other, we can hold difference of opinion. But when we are continually subjected to ad hominem attack whether we are right or totally wrong ends any hope of progress. We can all be passionate, but that does not excuse the behaviour of people like Yabby - I know he does the same to others, I'm not the only one, but this means I often don't even bother to read what he is saying - he may well have the answers to life, the universe and everything. Who can tell amongst all the garbage?

Ammonite, we've been through all this before, years ago, when
you were posting under another nick. I'll tell you now what I told
you then, just don't read my posts, if you are such a sensitive
little petal.

Yabby,

Didn’t I see you calling someone a hypocrite a while back or did I imagine it.? Reading back in your OLO posts. I am pretty sure you had a good time teasing the girls about killing on the average farm.I agree a bullet is kinder. Also you seemed to have shifted your game. I could have sworn you used to cry to reopen plants here..

Agree on 12 plants not pre stunning and i was wondering given your so well informed does that include MLA?
http://www.afic.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ma4-30-39.pdf

Ah, looky here AFIC accreditation Um.... That must be what MLA are upset about ah Yabbs. Do call Mr Palmer -that Royal Commission cant be too far off ah.Let’s face it- those inquires as how some got on the board just won’t go away.
So MLA think they can snub their noses at RSPCA laws and recommendations by befriending my old..

Hi Dickybird,

*step in' on 'other cultural slaughtering', perhaps a stronger surveillance on abattoir practices might be deemed appropriate*
Couldn’t agree more.

Noisy Scrub Bird,
*but it is not for me to 'step in' on 'other cultural slaughtering', perhaps a stronger surveillance on abattoir practices might be deemed appropriate.*

I think everybody has the right to protect Animals from undue cruelty and support RSPCA to lobby the Governments for proper Animal Welfare laws.

Ammonite,

*As long as we continue to communicate and respect each other, we can hold difference of opinion*

Ammonite, always the wise one.

I came I peace and would like to leave in peace. Post here from time to time FYI for the Dickbirds & other little bird from time to time- then disappear .

CG u might like this re getting back to your title- its a good read
http://www.austbeef.com.au/
Things are no longer the way our fathers farmed. We all stick up for the farmers as we recall- memories of wonderful men and women- our idles.
Fact is there are few left. As Rob Moore x director of ABA said recently WE ARE NOT FARMERS!! got that right.
TBC

continued

They are determined to only have one supplier.
Driven by strong relationships with live export agents and shipping agents they ban anybody from putting any other red meat alternatives to “”their”” people. So smart – but are they- $3 bucks a kilo they get . Can you imagine what the Saudi buyers would pay in the hand.


CG Sorry if this bugs you but I need to post this for others – I understand you don’t get the connection between Halal accreditation and Indonesia but others do the good news is I go now-
This is goodbye good luck because i think my posting here is upsetting some. That wasn’t my intention and we are busy beefing up with others.I came I peace and would like to leave in peace.

Media Release

HKM Calls on Mr Patel to clarify his position on Pre stunning 22.6.2011

HKM Halal Kind Meats Animal Welfare Organizations President Wendy Lewthwaite has Called upon Ikebal Patel to ""clarify"" his position on pre stunning of Halal Slaughter.
Wendy says for the past nine years working with Mr Patel on Animal Welfare and even sharing a joint letter head Mt Patel has always maintained his support for pre stunning.

Contact
Wendy Lewthwaite 0755392369

It is unfortunate that a knee-jerk reaction by the government to pressures by minority groups have shut down a major source of income for the cattle farmers. According to media reports the consumption of meat in Australia is slowly reducing and the meat industry is heavily dependent on exports. It has been reported that cattle producing nations are desperate to break into the asian market and they would be more than willing to step in at this stage with a disastrous affect on the Australian meat industry.Is the government intending to subsidise the farmers for their losses until they can regain stability?

Sorry I cut some off. I forgot to say goodbye to Yabby. Picture this the white wash inquiry is held & speaking of subs - once again their use the public's money to fund it- like SO many times before - we pay+ have pad millions & millions of $

Somebody should add up the total cost for all these white washes ... and get the figures out to an already furious public.

Anyway Yabbs- the inquiry is over--- the PM makes the wrong decsion and doesn't listen to the public - then from out of the blue footage pops up again from all over.

Its their funeral

Goodbye all!

Happy debating

Gertrude, I have not shifted my game at all. I still agree that
abattoirs should be built where they are viable. But they need
to be viable for farmers, processors and contented clients, or they
are doomed to failure.

For a long time WA was indeed short of slaughter space. But over
the last 4 years, farmers sick of being treated with contempt by
the meat industry, took things into their own hands and sold off
14 million sheep. What we now have is healthy competition between
abattoirs and the live trade.

Some in the meat industry have realised that without farmers they
won't have an industry. They have had to change their ways, install
new automated equipment to replace expensive labour and value add
in ways that they never bothered to do before. Simply paying farmers
less, is no longer the easy option that it once was.

Banning the live trade would simply deliver farmers on a platter
to processors, who could then go back to their old ways, name their
price and farmers would have no other option but to get out of
livestock completely. Long term that is doomed to failure as
livestock and crops are complimentary. Wall to wall cropping
invites another whole set of problems, such as herbicide resistance.

Yabby,

The very last post!. WA smaller plants 500 miles apart. ME buyers buy DIRECT from farmers. No middle men & set agreed prices. WE supply & train new staff. All pre stunned. Direct from farm to plant. Bought off net.
Guaranteed better $ than now and always thats paid to agents ATM for live trade. Things are changing and Halal is growing world wide. These guys can not believe how little Aussie farmers get.
They want free range- disease is a big thing in the culture.
However and here is the MAIN problem They wont look - or do anything until farmers meet direct to ensure supply--- sensible.
They cant set up alone and need people who know the area- game industry to run the plants.

I have told you that before
NFF ABA and all the others refuse to inform the farmers- ask them if they are interested to at least meet. These farmers dont need a nanny they can make up their own minds.
We both know why- They no longer represent farmers/ growers they direct them to Live Exports because in my opinion they are in bed with landmark AWB Elders to name a few.

The industry is corrupted and has to go. It will because the world is changing Halal is growing.

I understand people are insecure ad farmers are set in their ways..

I know about the loyalty thing too.

But lets face it Elders and the likes have abused that trust and loyalty and repaid that loyalty by bring shame to each and every farmer and this country.

They dont owe them ANYTHING . p This is THEIR fault together with the Governments not the poor farmers. The farmers have been betrayed by the government the middle men.
You know the drill

How about as a parting gift you let those poor bloody sheep out of that shed!

That would be a nice thing to do.

Getrude

Ah Gertrude, you remain confused as ever, so nothing changes :)

As a matter of interest, I have no sheep in a shed, the only
time they go into a shed is on their way onto a truck, off to
lambchops heaven.

Another matter of interest which shows how out of date that you
are: These days Landmark is owned by the Canadians and AWB has
been sold to the Americans, IIRC.

Your conspiracy theories about agents continue, but that is your
choice.

Farmers are free agents, they need free markets. Only competition
will do that for them, not trying to eliminate it. Farmers don't
run their farms to bankroll job creation schemes for the rest
either, they have their own families to feed and take care of.

Anyone can buy livestock, just go to a saleyard and start bidding.

Anyone can build an abattoir, buy livestock and slaughter them
where they want to slaughter them. Its called the market. Farmers
sell to the highest bidder.

All pretty simple really, but it refuses to sink in with you.
Never mind.

Gertrude, these friends of yours dont need to meet with farmers to ensure continuity of supply. Plenty of stock still go through sale yards. Just buy them there like everyone else. They are promising to pay the highest price anyway so it shouldnt worry them if there is is a risk of price variation. What is the real reason they dont go ahead? The idea of farmers refusing to meet with them is rubbish. The small town near where I grew up has had a halal abbatoir owned by muslims for years (owner was Egyptian I believe). No one had any qualms selling to him. Likewise farmland all around the country is being bought up by Arab interests - cant say that there is any hint of discrimation there. Someone is taking you for a ride....

Country Gal

I forgot to add that the example of castration I gave was not meant as a deliberate slur on farming in general, just that I understand it can be a tough call. I just don't want people thinking Aussies = Good; Indonesians = Bad.

We have the bio-technology right now to deal with both castration and mulesing. Cows could give birth to sterile bulls and sheep can be bred to have wool free or short wool around their hind quarters so as to be free of becoming fly-blown which must be more painful than mulesing. None of this would be cheap, but once established would relieve farmers of some tough jobs.

Yabby, you can go in thinking what you like - no-one is going to stop you. My posts can decide for anyone how well informed and researched I am.

Yabby,

I shouldnt look in here, I have bigger fish to fry.

This forum is time wasting-- and yet hes silly Gertrude again.
The AWB did sell and yes i was aware of it but i WILL keep the spotlight on the MLA and Australian Government. Just like wesfarmers
sold very quietly in the middle of the Cormo express shame AWB have tried to do likewise.
Maybe they didnt like the cows with guns story or the strippers outside the AWB inquiry- who knows.

http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html

As for Indonesia's it started well before this with beefups with USA over Halal accreditation's which resulted in Indonesia telling AU they were cutting back intake of 75%



United States raised a concerns to regarding Indonesia's new
requirement Halal accreditation requirements for producers of food, drugs , cosmetics to obtain distribution licenses .
USA respected the right of Indonesia to regulate Halal in the Indonesian market. ""However,"" to be done in a way that did not disrupt trade.
Halal certification, Indonesia had ""NOT"" provided any notice ..

As for buying from sale yards or NOT- that is if you like the HKM Gertude plan. I came into this for ONE thing only.
To improve Animal Welfare! We will buy direct from farm to plant
Signed deal:
""I wanted Halal accredited farm"s"" for which their paid extra for"" The other Islamic Society is soon up and running- took 5 years.

AFIC imop has been disruptive dysfunctional at times undemocratic did not honour 50% signed office cost agreement among other things.
Gertude personally lobbied Dr Ameer Ali and Dr Hussain to return for years . Dr Ameer Ali was the President of AFIC who singed the Animal Welfare HKM agreement ""not Ikebal."" Its been a long road but now we are on the right track and trust me ALL Australians need this new Society. Educated and not running around causing disunity.
WA plants 500 miles apart- Co-ops of Halal accredited farms- From farm to plant Pre stun Free range& creek fed. Thats the deal.

Ammonite, I understand where you were coming from with your example. The things that you have suggested are possible but take time. I'll leave the sterile calves alone as I dont know where that is up to, but breeding bare-breeched sheep takes significant time. It can take years to change the inherent genetic traits of a flock (my family have been developing their flock genetics for more than 110 years). I applaud the move for change, just get really shirty when dimwits like PETA call for a complete change in 2 years (as it just shows that they dont know anything about a breeding cycle even - obviously cant pay that much attention to animals).

Country Gal

Agree these advances are not overnight - but worthwhile, with genetic engineering the breeding cycle is shortened. About 20 years ago an engineering friend of mine was involved in a project breeding sheep where the wool could be just pulled off at a certain length, I am assuming this bit of tech went nowhere and, between you and me, I'm glad because it would've put shearers out of work, also I suspect grade of the fleece would've been compromised. But that is not the point, we CAN do things better, they are not overnight like some (not all) animal welfare groups would like.

The most important thing is to keep the discussion going, else humans have a tendency to resist change.

Now how about arranging for stun guns and a few good men to go to Indonesia and certain Middle Eastern countries? I think there is enough public awareness to call for donations, maybe something could be arranged through GetUp, maybe the MLA could also help.

Ammonite, LOL, now that would be too sensible a solution. Goodness, nothing for the bleeding hearts to whinge about. Probably takes a few good women though :)

Ah, now we've come full circle. Back to what Belly and I
had suggested in the first place!

Yabby,

There will be no live exports and all animals will be stun. Sure Australia can offer to help with equipment for animals outside Australia. That doesn't mean we send ""our Australian animals ""to their third world countries ALIVE - NO. We cant make them use it!
They hate us you know of course- have for years.
Not to mention the lucky ones are those who die on the death ships.

We were going to go for the ban it within three years but i see now Bobs got it right. BAN IT NOW because you lot just think you can bully your way to continue your evil trade. If we gave you three years you would do nothing & keep asking for more time.

I dont want to see even ONE more animal go on those death ships- not one.!

Philo said

Indonesia has a responsibility to feed its people so it might just invade Northern Australia to capture land to do so.
Philo out of every post yours stood out to me the most. Reading back wasn't your brother supplying LIVE Animals. Your very involved with the Church- were you not.?
Um , so your saying send these poor animals live because your too scared to stand up for a bit of common decency.
Your Church mob the good Church goers like the Tony abbots of this world are the greatest sinners and weaklings of all.

This is outrageous treatment of Gods creatures and all you can do is
worry about your own bum.
Every single Islamic Society has long lobbied the federal government of Australia to ban live exports because of the cruelty while you lot sit in silence. Yep be frightened because someones after you all right God! But thank you because now we know where to direct our adds!

Not worth debating anymore. Those of us that can muster commonsense seem to agree on a decent approach to the issue, and the resident raving looney keeps promising to go away, but wont. See you all on another thread. :)

Country Gal,
I agree, the best we can hope for is that the trade resumes very soon and that the producers, employees and others involved in the industry are not too badly burned.

Another Labor/green stuff up!

Ahh, some good news at last. I just got a press release from MLA
and they are coming up with some new equipment, based on a
Temple Grandin design. That is exactly what Belly and I had
suggested, so they must be reading our posts here :)

That is indeed good news, Yabby. What a shame that it took the real threat of shutting down the industry for them to take animal welfare issues seriously.

Congratulations to the "houswewives" in Animals Australia for forcing the industry to act belatedly on the issue of inhumane slaughtering of livestock exported from Australia!

Morgan, Animals Australia intend to throw thousands of Australians
out of work, clearly you have no objection to that. They could have
designed and installed humane equipment in the third world some
years ago, if they were really concerned about animal welfare
in the third world. They chose not to.

There is no such thing as "the industry", simply many different
players as components. Are you going to blame Aboriginals who
run stations now, for being parts of the industry?

The ultimate responsibility for this lies with the Minister
for Agriculture. Once again it shows that polticians cannot
be relied on to get too much right.

Ahh, some good news at last. I just got a press release from MLA
and they are coming up with some new equipment, based on a
Temple Grandin design....


How embarrassing. If I were you I wouldnt embarrasses myself. To come in and say that- priceless! So wow the big media release.Ahh,

Thanks, Was looking for something short & sweet to lodge to the Senate inquiry on the (MLA) Mindless Lairs Association(MLA)

Oh wow! Temple Gradin ah, gee wonder where Mindless Lairs Association and associates came up with that idea. Gee, maybe from Animals Australia- do you think...

Nah, might have seen her on TV. Wasn't she the one saying what a disgusting thing to see the Australian Government Mindless liars MLA stamped on the box for Australia.

Pity they didnt pick up on that at the last inquiry-& the one before that Ahh,. Speaking of inquires dont suppose you have the $ total costs for ALL the inquires over the last 20 years of the public money-? You reckon your a figures person.

Ahh, the MLA stamp of footage world just after the inquiry, will look great wide on the net for the Australian Government. - ""click"" Then if you like you can attend the public's private inquiry- food hot drinks videos. The odd journo -or two.

Dont tell me thats it!

Thats the plan- nope surely not. Oh my god - you lot ""are"' in trouble.

"" How embarrassing ""

, Animals Australia are not responsible to follow grubs about paying to fix up their mess.
"The industry", will die and AA will be responsible for saving farmers from their distorted manipulation.
Aboriginals will be free to be dentists, Drs, vets, butchers, drivers, electricians, plumbers brickies, builders, chefs
run stations too. How insulting the MLA are implying thats all aboriginal people are capable of!

The ultimate responsibility for this lies with the Minister
for Agriculture.
Yep- and if they make the wrong choice . btw have u seen the way they refuse to use western equipment .
Just as well we got that too!

Kerryanne,you call them gods creatures but did you forget that he gave them to us?

After the flood, Jehovah God told Noah:

“Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. . . . Only flesh with its soul—its blood—you must not eat.” (Gen. 9:3, 4)

Oh for goodness sake- Ok sure I can respond to that. Not All Roads Lead to Rome http://www.catholica.com.au/breakingnews/031_bn_print.php

http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/tsnhod-08.html
According to the Bible, animals have souls. Texts such as Genesis
1:21,24

Dear OPEN LETTER COPY TO GEORGE PELL sent friday24.6.2011

As discussed on the phone, we strongly recommend that you contribute. The fact is there is no reason to send these animals to suffer such cruelty. We can send meat to feed people. Not that these animals go to feed the impoverish people. Poor people eat rice and vegetables if they can get it.

I mentioned to you by phone every Australian Muslim Leader is lobbying the Government to ban live exports. They have been for ten years. I am involved with assisting .
I am also aware that a group of Animal Lovers are with deep pockets discussing TV adds to highlight the Churches role in speaking out loudly for God’s creatures. I hope the Church is more active in speaking out in the future
I am one of the people who are deeply disappointed by the silence of Church Leaders in Australia so far. We believe the Church should play a active public role. If its anybodies moral obligation imop it is that of the Australian Churches. Also would you pls distribute asking people to write to the inquiry voicing their objections to sending animals off in ships while still alive- other etc members etc. Maybe a bulk email.

Here is a copy of the inquiry papers to lodge online. Pls don’t hesitate to contact me if we may be of assistance in any way. The peoples feeling are clear. The public have spoken. They ask us in hundreds of email where are our Church Leaders.?

Pls speak out for God’s creatures,.

We ask this in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

You misinterpret the last piece of my post "Only flesh with its soul—its blood—you must not eat.” (Gen. 9:3, 4) It means still living,so dont eat them alive,otherwise they are ours for food.It doesnt mean we should treat then cruelly,but in the end we have to kill to eat meat.The bible also describes people that are unduly cruel to animals as "wicked".

Can we blame a developing nation for their actions when we can from where they are now?
I dont think so,but we can educate & appeal to their compassion to make changes to animal welfare.
We cant do that unless we are involved.

sorry,was meant to read,,,Can we blame a developing nation for their actions when we came from where they are now?

G,day George, &here I was thinking you weren't going to write back.

*Kerryanne,you call them gods creatures but did you forget that he gave them to us?*

( Shush , dont tell anybody George but God sent me to take them back)

They must grow good grapes down your way.


"wicked".

Lol @ the tactics some use when their arguement is shot full of holes.
1st they will look for something obscure to argue but when they are unable to justify a point they will accuse you of being someone else or just ignore questions & babble on & try to take pot shots,anything to take away from a valid point...........most people can see through the trash thankfully.

Actually, "Kerryanne" has done a wonderful job on OLO, for she
has made my point for me. Anyone who reads the agricultural forums
would know that they are regularly invaded by similar posters
and no amount of reason or rational debate will affect their
hysteria or lack of reasoning skills. So that is what farmers
are up against, when discussing this issue.

Regardless of the amateurish antics of some minor animal welfare activists, I don't think you can level the same criticisms at outfilts like AA and the RSPCA. Their recent campaign around live exports can only be described as professional and effective, not least because the vast majority of Australians agree with them.

Perhaps if farmers weren't so innately dismissive of animal welfare activists, such organisations wouldn't have been forced to use the tactics they did to achieve almost overnight the objectives they've been trying to negotiate for years.

Yabby does the mainstream Animal Welfare groups a major disservice by asserting disingenuously that the more extreme activists are in any way representative of them.

morganzola
My people dont have the vast $ RSPCA and AA have. However,
I left some relevant information on olo regarding ritual slaughter.
It is a major breakthrough in Australia & brought out to support RSPCA & AA for improving Animal Welfare.
So you are calling the only Muslim Animal Welfare Organization in Australia& history's attempts as amateurish antics. Oh good that ought to help the animals well done. Pls remember I am posting as a member of the public not in a race with AA or anybody else-. Your comments given some of the vital info i have posted in the last few days are purposely offensive & unwarranted. Working on a programe to faze it out- might have been a good idea too - dont you think. Or is Yabby right that the agenda is to stop all aimals being farmed full stop. From my view Yabbys claims are starting to gain momentum.

lets look at Kerry s great crime. I care about animals . Thats it.
Or, is it more- perhaps. Is it that I am seen to be one of the different people who want abattoirs opened in Australia.
And thats the problem.
People who advised the former Prime Minister and look after these accreditation's who can make a real difference you offend.
I doubt very much the animals come first with people like yourselves.

Yabby,

It is my view 'they' will never get Indonesia to any international slaughter standard - just too complex a country. An Australian based animal processing industry that ensures a high standard of animal welfare and a profitable return to producers, would, for me, be an ideal world.

Morgan, if the majority of Australians agreed with AA, then they
would give up eating meat. For as their website makes clear, the
average meat eater consumes around 100 animals per year, that's
how many innocent animals could be spared from cruelty each time
someone makes the decision to switch to a vegetarian diet.

You too could save 100 innocent lives every year.

Meantime reality prevails. Something like 80% of Australians still
buy battery farmed eggs, showing that to most Australians, their
own hip pocket comes before anything and they are hardly in a
position to preach to farmers.

Fact is that AA are pushing for animal liberation, which remains
extreme. Various animal liberation groups and vegan groups are
part of their membership, quite different from animal welfare,
which is the issue that arose in Indonesia.

Farmers had nothing to do with Indonesia, they just pay their levies
of around 100 million a year, which includes money for animal welfare.
The MLA Charter is set by the Minister for Agriculture, ultimately
that decides how much of that can be spent on animal welfare.
As I have pointed out many times, I am all for spending more.

The Indonesians are quite correct. The Australian Govt never bothered
to explain the rules. So it is a political problem, not farmers at
fault.

I find myself in the rare position of supporting yabbys claims.
Look at facts. I posted a media release a few days ago announcing history & victory for Australian Animals. That was the new Muslim Leaders were opposing Petal on ritual slaughter and supporting RSPCA stunning. A HUGE brave step while they cop the flack from other Muslims.!

Not ONE WORD from all these so called Animal Lovers- ?

Yep, I am sure if the industry do read the forum comments THEY would have noticed that too.

I am very sorry for the sake of the animals you ""force me to do this- but ""again"" i point out for 9 years AA were invited to meet Australian Muslim Leaders & Saudi Delegates to discuss the only programe on the table to phase out live with minimum effect on our farmers NO TAKERS?

Lyn was offered to be our Ambassador for Animal Welfare NOT INTERESTED. So you come in here and tell me about unprofessional morganzola- or is it Glenyse.

1 We dont pay media

2 We dont tell people they cant go on TV .
Even the media and said for years- God if only they would let some of the others talk-

Dont you people understand without having a proper proposal to open them here behind you as well! as the footage makes it harder and harder to really get these animals and farmers help.

So morganzola look in the mirror when speaking of amateurish antics.

We are not fund raisers but serious about reopening plants

But thats the real problem isn't it?( I mean apart from your own egos that just have to be the ones who saved the animals.

Let me tell you this much- If you want to save them kill them here and STOP pretending . You have enough $ to get it up.

Roll your sleeves up and get out to farmers.. 2nd thoughts dont - i forgot they kicked u off didnt they.

You want a debate been veggies and main stream representing 80% of the public- you got one bring it on.

Beef farmers consistently losing money
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/content/201104/s3201083.htm
Wednesday, 27/04/2011
My argument has also been live exports is not sustainable - its cruel and the public dont want to support it.

But I just had to post it to show how stupid* the MLA and industry is- Their insulting answer is to give farmers biz courses
The farmers know the problem already its YOU guys! MLA

You have no idea about farming live stock . Get out of the way!

A report commissioned by Meat and Livestock Australia shows that for nearly the last decade, most cattle graziers in northern Australia have been unprofitable.

The Beef Situation Analysis report concluded that in six of the last seven years, the average northern beef business posted a loss.

Co-author Terry McCosker says 2009 especially saw the northern beef industry in its worst state since the beef crisis of the 1970s.

"Every cattle producer I've ever spoken to completely agrees with how tough it is to make money in the cattle industry," he said.

"It's due to rising overheads. Overheads have gone up at least 50 per cent in the last 10 years.

"That has created a scale issue, that means properties are now too small, and that in itself is compounding the problems."

In response to the report, Meat and Livestock Australia says it will be rolling out business courses to graziers.

click on link-at top

As most people may have already guessed i come in here olo to register my disgust at the cruelty to our animals.

I just watch channel ten running a doc on the cattle women & men crying that they want the live trade resumed.

Good on Ten for running the footage of the 4 corners doc in the background - not that the public needed any reminders.

These people all know there is a plant up there they could reopen but - no interest.

Why? Because they get a few extra $ sending them to hell on earth.

Then they say they got no place to put them. Ah well let them back out on the flood plains. Now they say - no water- bull.

What they want is blood money & 99% have KNOWN how these animals are treated.

These are not our Aussie farmers that stood at the wharfs screaming about the way their cattle were treated.

Next we look look into the comfortable life of the Lercourts!

Get off the land if u cant open plants your not all broke u grubs!