Dear Rstuart,

"Your phone is definitely not isolated from the internet. An internet phone can ring your land line now. Many of the firms offering cheap overseas phone calls do by routing those calls over the internet using high compression codecs."

But the call itself is carried by my telco, isn't it?
I mean, someone from the internet could make a call to my phone, just like anybody else, but they will need to go via my telco at a high level, they wouldn't for example be able to intercept a phone call I'm on using IP packets and immitate the voice of my friend on the other line. Or can they?

The two examples you supplied are of breaking into a mobile network and into computers. While it can be alarming, it is still different than breaking into an ordinary, basic, cable-based, analogue phone network.

"I don't know whether the Australia telco's route their main voice channels through the public internet."

Does anyone else here happen to know?

Rstuart,

The balance of the funding is expected to come from capital markets. There is no plan to include the $11bn in the costs, and I have given you a link with the CEO of NBN directly says so. Perhaps you should provide some evidence that shows otherwise.

Mobile broadband is growing at an exponential rate, and I have shown that 40% of new broad band connections are mobile. The 4G system is now just being rolled out and will have a maximum rate of 100Mb/s, and 5G is on the horizon.

Some mobile plans are already cheaper than the base plan the NBN is offering and certainly existing ASDL is far cheaper. You have failed to explain why the Australian consumer will pay more for less.

Dear rstuart and Shadow Minister,

I just wanted to say a thank you to you both for being prepared to contribute like you have to this thread thus far. I have learnt far more than I could have imagined or what would have been possible through my own reading. It is a good example of the adversarial system at work and the spirted manner with which your have prosecuted your cases has certainly lifted my understanding of the NBN issue significantly.

It has been a pleasure to sit back and learn from two people who obviously know their stuff. 

Dear Yuyutsu,

I will admit to being a little uncertain about the reasonableness of any concern about loosing a copper connection but your posts have got me thinking about a lady I know who by choice lives without running water and electricity at the end of 3 kms of copper wire. I do wonder how her situation will be dealt with under the NBN.

@Shadow Minister: The balance of the funding is expected to come from capital markets.

If it is the $9 billion you are talking about I think the justification was they start earning money earlier because having access to Telstra's infrastructure will speed up the roll out. That means less borrowings from both the capital markets and the government. Actually, I think any additional borrowing's have to come from the government. They appear to have maxed out what private sources are willing to lend.

It looks to me this is effectively a loan from Telstra, in return for being allowed to do most of the work in the rollout. I have no doubt the arrangement makes great commercial sense to sides. Telstra after all gets $9 billion for an obsolete network, and NBN gets to reduce their borrowings because of the faster rollout. (Note this would not happen with FTTN, because under that scenario the copper would be kept.)

I guess I am not qualified to comment on whether that justifies shifting it from the balance sheet to the P&L. I am not an accountant. The bottom line is it reduces the amount I, the tax payer, has to put in, and that is great.

@Shadow Minister: Some mobile plans are already cheaper than the base plan the NBN is offering

That statement makes no sense - and you know it. I was going to launch into an explanation of why it makes no sense, but we've been over it before and you didn't challenge me on it then. A comparison of NBN and mobile pricing was given here: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4494#115675

@Shadow Minister: certainly existing ASDL is far cheaper.

This statement is worse. It's just flat out wrong. But again we have been over it here: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4494#115674 You didn't challenge the facts or reasoning I presented so I presume you accepted it.

@Shadow Minister: You have failed to explain why the Australian consumer will pay more for less.

Two unsound statements, followed by a deduction based on them. Nice Shadow. Something worth of Barnaby Joyce.

@Yuyutsu: But the call itself is carried by my telco, isn't it?

On your side yes. But obviously the call has to get to the other phone, and that will necessarily be carried by the telco they use. There are a myriad of VOIP providers in Australia, a lot of my friends use them. Even Telstra and Optus provide VOIP, over the internet.

@csteele: It has been a pleasure to sit back and learn from two people who obviously know their stuff.

I have an admission to make. For all the jibes I throw at Shadow, compared to most here it is a pleasure debating with him, and for that - thank you Shadow.

For me it is a learning exercise. Believe it or not I do it to learn, and enjoy the process. This little discussion is an excellent example of just how such learning happens. It all goes to pot though if people just spew opinions or "facts" without links, which is what often passes for debate here. The learning happens when you are forced to go digging for facts in support of your view. Real learning happens when you don't find any.

The reason I have to thank Shadow is he is one of the few here that have forced me to revise my opinions. He is does post the occasional relevant link given enough prodding, and usually he moves on from a point once we have come to some resolution, even if that is to agree to disagree.

Rstuart,

You could start by actually reading what I posted, not what your blinkered logic would like.

Considering that you yourself posted the link that itemised the usage of broadband by the majority of people, 90+% of which required comparatively low speeds and capacity. Using the proposed retail price of the lowest package of $60, there are many mobile packages far cheaper. Whilst they might not compare on a byte by byte costing, they are still up to half the price, and if they meet the requirements of the customer and give the benefit of mobility why should he pay more?

As for ASDL I get 200GB at 12-20Mb/s plus telephone (incl all national calls) now for $60pm. Which is cheaper and better value than what the NBN will offer in 7-8 years.

As I mentioned before the NBN business plan estimates that mobile wireless broadband take up will be 13%, whereas all information nationally and overseas would indicate a figure greater. As you have not provided any information to the contrary, I assume you have accepted this.