@Yuyutsu: you believe that it is OK for 51% to tyrannize 49% in the name of democracy.

That's putting a bit strongly. Consider the alternatives to democracy. A tiny minority dominating the majority is another way of organising society, which was very popular in the feudal ages. Prior to that tiny nomadic hunter societies that killed each other on sight was the rage. So while I don't think having the 51% tyrannize the 49% is a wonderful situation, the sad reality is there aren't a lot of choices. As Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

And really, it ain't so bad. If the worst for of tyranny you have to suffer here is having a free, upgrade of your copper line to fibre forced on you, it's no wonder 1000's of people try to illegally take up residence to the country each year.

@Yuyutsu: how does it actually work?

Your NBN box has an analogue port which you plug your analogue phone into. It takes it from there. So it may use IPv4, IPv6 or whatever - you don't know and nor should you care. When the time comes you will just move the RJ-12 plug that is currently connecting you home phones to your ADSL filter to the NBN box, and it should just work.

I don't know the answer to the technical side of your question, but if I was to have a guess, I would base it on the NBN saying they provide, for free, a 150 k bits/sec voice channel. 150 K bits / sec seems too close to an ISDN BRI channel (144 K bits/sec) to be a coincidence. It also neatly fits with the NBN box having 2 analogue ports.

@Shadow Minister: The traffic figures proved to be wildly optimistic

It is exactly the same story here in Brisbane. Word for word.

@Shadow Minister: the tunnels I was referring to were the Lane Cove and Cross City

I knew it. We Queenslanders contracted this bloody disease from NSW. Just typical. Having a Liberal mayor gave us no immunity, apparently.

@Shadow Minister: As NBN co is not a real company, and is set up purely to hide the costs from the budget sheet, ENRON style

Give it a break. It's a quango. They're so common my browser's spell checker recognises the word. What would you prefer - instead of splitting it off into a separate entity it all come from general revenue as an untraceable series of transactions, so we don't really know how much it really costs?

@Shadow Minister: The $11bn gift from the Labor government

I ask for a link and you repeat the assertion. So I went looking. Your mostly wrong. From http://www.nbnco.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/a69fc5804479c76aa31fabc72ea64545/NBNCo_AnnualReport_2010.pdf

"The agreement for these terms has been attributed an approximate net present value after tax of $9 billion by Telstra from the payments to
be made over time by NBN Co."

Both only mostly because of this:

"Separately, the Federal Government has agreed to progress public policy reforms with an attributed value by Telstra of approximately $2 billion."

That does smell like a bribe to me. But not one involving money as you are suggesting. It's just favours. I am not sure that makes it better.

@Shadow Minister: The assumption is that 75% of house holds will take up an NBN Internet connection

Also wrong. From http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/132711/Review_of_NBN_Co_Limiteds_Corporate_Plan-Executive_Summary.pdf

"NBN Co is forecasting up take of 56.0% of homes passed by 2015 and 63.4% by the end of 2020".

Seriously Shadow, I suspect your figures came from the Liberal party kool aid. You are drinking far too much of it. Known side effects of swallowing too much crap from any political party without question is loosing your grip on reality.

Dear Rstuart,

There is no need or justification for anyone tyrannizing another, neither a majority nor a minority. Everyone should be able to do whatever they like so long as they do not hurt others. That includes installing and using copper cables.

"And really, it ain't so bad. If the worst for of tyranny you have to suffer here is having a free, upgrade of your copper line to fibre forced on you"

It has nothing to do with the physical media and everything to do with content. In my case it may amount to a loss of my line rather than an "upgrade". If this is an attempt to force the internet on people against their conscience, then I may end up without a phone. Sure it's not the worst, I should not complain when people in Iran, Syria, Afghanistan and North Korea suffer enormously harsher, yet this is not a trifling matter either.

"When the time comes you will just move the RJ-12 plug that is currently connecting you home phones to your ADSL filter to the NBN box, and it should just work."

That is, IF I find it acceptable to connect my phones to the NBN box, which depends on whether or not my phones would be exposed to the internet.

"if I was to have a guess, I would base it on the NBN saying they provide, for free, a 150 k bits/sec voice channel. 150 K bits / sec seems too close to an ISDN BRI channel (144 K bits/sec) to be a coincidence. It also neatly fits with the NBN box having 2 analogue ports."

Can you please explain how channels work? I do hope this is some sort of hardware-based multiplexing, so the need to encapsulate phone calls as IP packets (with IP addressing) does not arise.

Did you consider that if the basic phone service depends on the internet, with a standard IP (or IPv6) address, then internet hackers will be able to hack into my phone just as they currently hack into computers?

Rstuart,

"Telstra is poised to complete an $11 billion deal with the National Broadband Network in less than a week. Under the terms, Telstra will receive at least $9 billion from NBN Co. to use or rent its infrastructure while the network is being built. Another $2 billion will go towards meeting Telstra's service needs and delivery ."

So Telstra gets $9bn directly, and $2bn is paid on behalf of Telstra. Still makes up $11bn cost to the government, or is every newspaper wrong?

The 75% fixed line use comes from the business case partially presented to the senate.

http://media.gizmodo.com.au/wp//2010/12/NBN-Business-plan.pdf

"NBN Co has assumed that 70 percent of premises passed by the network will take up a service. This figure takes into account an estimated 12% of premises being unoccupied, 13% using wireless products and 5% using other existing fixed line networks"

Dear Shadow Minister,

You mentioned "5% using other existing fixed line networks":

I was not aware that other fixed line networks were available in Australia, or that they would remain legal once the NBN takes over. Do you have any information on how to connect to such a network? I may need it badly once the NBN comes. Thanks!

@Yuyutsu: That includes installing and using copper cables.

You are free to install copper cables and use them as you wish. The problem arises because you are using copper cables installed by others, owned by others, terminating and depending on equipment at premises owned by someone else (the exchange), and now they want to replace the entire caboodle with something better. And you are in effect saying you want to prevent them from doing that.

@Yuyutsu: IF I find it acceptable to connect my phones to the NBN box, which depends on whether or not my phones would be exposed to the internet.

Your phones will be exposed to the internet no less or more than they are now. Your current phone line carries IP packets, which stop at the ADSL splitter. The new NBN fibre line will carry IP packets, which will get separated from the IP packets at the NBN box.

@Yuyutsu: Can you please explain how channels work?

I don't know. I've heard on the grapevine the fibre is PON (Passive Optical Network) system, which is TDM (Time Division Multiplexing) based.

@Yuyutsu: if the basic phone service depends on the internet,

It will depend on IP packets. I don't know whether telco's commonly ship those packets over the public internet. The cheaper ones certainly do.

@Yuyutsu: internet hackers will be able to hack into my phone just as they currently hack into computers?

Nope. Your phone is an analogue device. It does not understand IP packets. The voice signals your phone understands will be turned into IP packets by your telco - Telstra, Optus or whoever, on their premises (or maybe in the NBN box, but that seems unlikely to me). You won't know whether this happens, nor should you care. Just because Telstra is using IP to transport your voice does not mean your phone sees the IP packets, it does not mean your phone will get an IP address, nor does it make it possible to hack your phone via IP packets.