I understand that Costello himself was not in favour of middle class welfare Yabby, which no doubt constitutes a large part of the numeric propositions you make about today.

This is in fact, the very same the self funded pay rises, that would have otherwise been funded by business in the pre Howard Australia that I referred too in my opening post.

"My utopia involves governments supporting the framework that allows people to best utilise their skills and goals, and one that allows a variety of life choices not all skewed to some warped economic growth principles", says Pelican.

Yep, my own as well, and I clearly don't see the need, nor see it prudent to acquiesce to needs or views of business, as a lone criteria for human progress.

I think the balance today is out of whack Yabby and as I said successive Govt's have been responsible for this.

To the Govt's current credit it has taken some small steps to reverse this, as was the case in the repealing of Workchoices, and in todays news, accepting (in principal), a substantial pay rise for low paid (mostly female) workers, in aged and disability in the NON Govt sector, (these are the very people that have been getting a raw deal from their employers).

I think this is good for working families to know that their elected representatives will stick up for what is appropriate in terms of rights, pay etc

"The difference of quality of life between the First and Third Worlds is a social safety net".

Couldn't agree more Pelican, it is a given, or synonymous with civilisation or being civilised itself. Somebody must provide a commonly understood set of principles in a civilisation, (and that somebody) in our civilisation, is Govt.

The mark of a good Govt, is how well it performs the very task of providing an SSN.

*nor see it prudent to acquiesce to needs or views of business*

Its not business, Thinker 2, its the customer you should be concerned
about. You are both a worker and a customer. For business to pay
you, they need to extract the money from a willing customer.

*I think the balance today is out of whack Yabby and as I said successive Govt's have been responsible for this.*

Govts reflect peoples aspirations, Thinker 2. With people like you
screaming for more of the pie, Govts try to increase its size.

I did not move to the backblocks of WA for the money, Thinker 2.
I did it for other reasons. I had the option of working for a Swiss
Bank and could now be a banking fatcat. I chose not to, for many
reasons.

* The mark of a good Govt, is how well it performs the very task of providing an SSN.*

Indeed, Govt should be there to help those who cannot help themselves.
But is should not freely dish out money which it extracts by
compulsion from hard working taxpayers, to those quite able to
provide for themselves, but who are too lazey, could not be
bothered or who demand that the Govt change their nappy.

Well I am not going down our well worn path about globalisation Yabby, the benefits of globalisation for some ignore the darker downside for many others. That statistic I quoted might not concern you yabby but it says a lot about a system that sets up such an inequitable distribution of wealth. And no I am not talking about Communism in case you start looking under the bed but fair and reasonable conditions for the majority not at the behest of the minority.

My calculator is working fine, you need to get rid of your old abacus though. ;) Or maybe that should be a :p.

Good news tonight Thinker2 about the increase in the lowly wages of community workers.

yabby [rebutting..not refuting..the 95 %..owned by 5%]

""Nonsense, trade and globalisation
have dragged hundreds of millions
out of poverty, globally.""

the trade is obvious
but your meaning...'FREEtrade''
and that scam demands proof..

""Australians today are better off today
then they ever were, under high tariff barriers.""

i have never bought $40 tshirts
but again overly simplistic...
ignoring that MANY things have chasnged
[death duties..increased taxes..handouts to the wealthy middle class[free insulation..free solar]...if you got a spare grand]
[or a such a huge user that 1000 is only two one one bill]

but those like me
[using only 50 bucks a quater]
paying for your free solar cells
[with special buyback-pricing deals]

You go and tell
the poor that they should be paying
double to those getting the solar cells for [near]/free

but this takes the cake

""Who owns the Congo or Ethiopia""'

its people..and the beasts god put upon its boundry

""for instance? Govts,
who have a large
share of the wealth,"""

bull-durH-dash
thats the wealth of a few minesters
puting the spoil/kickback..payback
into their swiss accounts

RAPING THE PEOPLE
stealing their resources

FOR some multinational..corperation's
...despoiling the peoples lands
destroying habitat..poluting waters..
sickening the people and the environment

fopr greed

if only THOSE govts would serve their trust
[its people]

its the scum that you defend
[but as an admitted EX banker]
i realise you bought into the lie

even after your concience rebelled
you still swallow the spin

as they refuse to give title to their citizens

Pelican, your sense of social justice is all very sweet, but you
are up against the reality of human nature.

We've seen before what happens with lotto winners. Some invest
their money, others blow the lot and land up back on welfare some
time later.

This is a problem with our system. It provides those who want it,
with huge opportunities, but it also lumbers them with responsibility.
You cannot stop people making foolish decisions about their own
lives and you cannot provide them with impunity, when they do so.

Some people are poor because they gamble. People like OUG insist
on spending their money on smokes. Some simply could not be
bothered with putting in an effort. The list goes on.

So the best that we can do really, is to provide equality of
opportunity. Give those who want to study, the chance to do so.
Give those who want to work, the chance to do so. Give those
who want to start their own business, the chance to do so.

But if people screw up their lives, its really their choice, even
if many prefer to blame everyone but themselves, when they do so.

That is human nature too.

If Govt is too generous, it invites anyone who wants to screw the
system, to do so. Why bother trying, when no matter what you do,
the outome will be the same.

Life is relative. A young kid told me the other day, that he was
doing it tough. Getting out of bed every morning to go to school,
was not easy to do. Clearly that is his perception of the world,
because he's never been hungry