So here we go again, these women want to be treated as equal by being allowed to fight at the front line in combat.

You're kidding!

So, please explain;
What happens when the menstruate?

Will it be a case of, I', soory I just don't feel to good today, i'll have to pass.

What happens when they are asked to lift something that is deemed to heavy?

What happens when they get yelled at? Remember, this is war, not a picnic.

To the enemy they are simply soldiers and should they not be up to the task, many lives would be placed at risk.

Could this simply be yet another case of 'equal rights when it suits'?

Now I am not a sexist, but I am a realist and, there are simply some things that women should not participate in and visa versa for men.

I’m pretty sure they have these new fangled pills that eliminate the problem of menstruation.

I think the other stuff is probably dealt with in that training they all have to do, pass, or get out.

You are a great big giant sexist Rehctub but you’re our sexist.

rehctub <"What happens when the(y) menstruate?"

Medications are commonly used for some female soldiers to prevent menstruation if it is going to cause problems on the job.

"What happens when they are asked to lift something that is deemed to heavy?"

Can all men lift all items? What happens if they can't lift it?
I would think many of the women would be as strong, if not stronger than some of the men. They may also be smarter at working out how to lift it without hurting themselves.

"What happens when they get yelled at? Remember, this is war, not a picnic."

They will say 'yes sir/madam" like the men do I would imagine.
They will get the same training.

"To the enemy they are simply soldiers and should they not be up to the task, many lives would be placed at risk."

Really? Are all men always 'up to the task'? I guess if they were, we wouldn't have had the various court marshals for killing their own men, or killing innocent civilians, and for being deserters in the armed forces over the years, now would we?

"Could this simply be yet another case of 'equal rights when it suits'?"

Yes. If it suits women to want to join the armed forces, then it should absolutely be 'allowed'.

"Now I am not a sexist..."

Yes you are... and a very naive one.

Rechtub my old sparing partner you do put your foot in it, often.
Not as if we propose forcing women in to uniform.
And I doubt we will ask them to strap bombs to them selves and murder others.
Are you aware how many women down the century's have fought.
Or how many fight now?
It was a long while ago females rode side saddle.
And unlikely as you seem to think you can not keep them on the pedestal.
Most would not want the service life, but those who do?
Think a little bit about this,are women mens property to control or just as free to do as they wish as us?

Suzeonline has it totally correct ('cept the plural is courts martial) on this one, I think.

Modern military command tends to be centred on "fit for purpose" concepts for both personnel and equipment; and this operates within a 'gender inclusive' society here in Australia. The ideal would be for no one to be needed as a soldier – no prospect of this happening soon…

Still… I can't help but wonder what the Taliban would do if confronted by a UN 'Boudica' battalion?

I reckon they'd lose.

I thought women were intelligent.Let's see.They want to go to war for a few imperialists,risk their lives amongst depleted uranium and steal a country's energy/resources based on the lie of war against terrorism?

It was one of the Rockefellers who bragged about bringing women into the workforce.They would be come another money milking cow for elite few.They would pay enoumous taxes for debt their Govts created.The reason being,the driving up of house prices via Govt policy of restricting the supply of land.It now takes 18 times annual salary to buy a house compared to 4 times annual salary to buy a house in 1980.So all this mortage debt feeds the banks and the elite private sector.

So are families any better off having both parties working? In terms of life quality,probably not.

I think all those reasons are bogus. If they can pass the training then off they go. It's about time women looked to even up this 'inequality' rather than only being interested in cushy CEO jobs.

But, what happens to the morale of the unit when their comrade is under threat of rape after capture. The protective males might put themselves in more danger and the female soldiers would be the prize of the enemy as outlandish resources would go towards protecting the women from capture. That seems a handicap to me.

Also, workplace romances are fraught with danger at the best of times, let alone in the front line with all the other stresses.

It's a can of worms having lovers tiffs and love triangles with guns around.

Maybe all female and all male units segregated would work though.

Oh, gnashing of teeth, here we go again.

I think General Jimbo Wallace has it right.

He says that the Army is for boys who like boys so much they 'get on' with each other 'very well' in foxholes, huddled down together reading their Wallace Everyman Bible as they gain strength from the Lord before breaking whatever commandment it is that says 'though shall not kill (conditions apply)'.

Reading between the lines Jimbo puts up, he's actually saying the Army is for misogynists, misfits and socially inept people that are unable to cooperate with people not like them.

That fear of 'the other' is why they do so well when they ignore the 10 Commandments and kill, with pride and joy, for God Queen and Country.

Why anyone would want to be a part of that 'foxhole' fun is beyond me but why any woman would want to throw herself into a bog of pretty mixed up people just beggars belief.

Still, the Army attracts mostly right wingers so at least they never get challenged by any 'liberal' thoughts, which is why there are no 'poofs' in the Army, isn't it Jimbo?

I couldn't think of anything worse than joining the army and going into battle. I'd be quite happy to keep the home-fires burning while the chaps are taking on the enemy.

I'm often taken aback when I see American women in Afghanistan and Iraq toting backpacks,all sweaty and dusty - and when they're interviewed they take the opportunity to send cheerios to their infants and older children back in the States....sorry, I don't get that all. What would induce a woman to leave her babies to sign up for the opportunity to fight on a foreign battlefield?

Poirot

The US lives in a different universe to the rest of the world but given that the US Army is largely an evangelical Christian army one assumes that the local Baptist pastor (you know, God hates fags) and his ilk are preaching fire and brimstone into the largely empty heads of the US youf and telling them that they serve in two armies, the US one and the Jesus one, in their brave fight against Muslim domination.

So, who can resist a two-for-one bargain, eh?

And they might even give out Tupperware!

Then again, to be a little fairer to these gormless souls you highlight, given that wages for the un and ill educated in the US are below that of their comrades in the UK even, about on a par with a well paid goatherd in Uganda, there is little surprise that the poor in the US join the Army, to get an education if they live, and to get health care supplied to them and their kiddies back home.

Although, frankly, I'd see employer supplied health care as being tainted with at least a whiff of Communism myself, so am shocked to hear the Commie fearing yanks are prepared to accept such a handout and not insist on their Constitutional right to die in the gutter, where many of them live- in the land of the free you can live where ever you damn well choose, sucker!

I read the first post to my girl and waited.

“So many guys are like that, don’t think women can work on cars, fix things in a shed, so many are like that still, everywhere, they still really think we can’t do anything, I hate it.”

So I asked what she would say to change a persons mind who thought that way.

“You can’t they’re stupid.”

Why do you think they are like that?

“Probably had old wanky parents.”

But what do you think about girls dying and boys dying while fighting?

“How many of each have died?”

Well I don’t know, I read recently many girl soldiers commit suicide or it is claimed they have committed suicide during training.

“Yeah cause imagine what the boys are like and how they treat them.”

Hmm.

“What’s his problem with it anyway?”

Well so far it seems to be periods and getting upset if yelled at.

“Does he have a wife?”

I think so.

“Does his wife know that he thinks he is better than her?”

“Guys don’t like being yelled at and so what if we get periods boys have all the same shlt going on and just don’t bleed imagine if the girls did do nothing and said f-it lets go back to the old days and we’ll stay home and cook and not work…”

Would you go to war?

“Maybe the airforce”

But would you want to go to war if you were in the air force?

“Nah there is no point in why they are fighting, they just kill Muslims it’s mean”

And she’s gone. Has been kinda crap raising a girl and telling them they can do anything while everyone else goes nah you can’t you’re just a girl.

TBC,

You're right - it's those from the lowest socio-economic strata who take it on - men and women. They have just enough "education" to have recourse to almost no independent thought at all, which I suppose is a desirable state if one is going to become fodder for the U.S. imperial cause.

The blurring of gender roles in general brings its own challenges.
For some reason we presume that because our technology advances, that we somehow alter our basic drives. Psychologically we can alter our attitudes and set them off on an alternative route, but they always come to a screaming halt when they encounter a primordial urge....strange old world.

Why don't the women try out for the AFL or Rugby Super 14's. Oh I see we are going to lower standards again to accomodate feminist dogma for the Defence Forces but not where the general population can see the stupidity openly. Have not we learned by the lower standards in Police forces yet. Look what Nixon did in Victoria. The trend has been well and truely set by the most incompetent Government in this country's history including Gough.

Dear rehctub,

I've got to admit that I also can't understand women who want to be in the front-lines fighting in foreign lands. However as another poster said - you can't raise your children to believe that they can do anything and then pull the rug out from under them and say, "No -
you can't do that - because you're a female!" Should we draw the line for women at certain jobs? I guess if the Defence Forces accept women - and are prepared to fully train them as equals with men then they should also be eligible for doing the same jobs as the men.

Just think of governments losing the PR for their war cause. People can except male soldiers being killed, but once the media gets hold of a captured woman soldier being raped, or mothers being killed, how long do you think the wars will last? Pull the troops out!

Any governmnet would be stupid to let women see too much action. No PR/spin department is that good!

Houellebecq makes an excellent point. All this fuss may just be an attempt to divert media attention from the negative publicity surrounding the ADF's current problems concerning women. Allowing women to see actual action would not make for good PR and as Houellebecq points out the Defence Forces would not take that risk.

Maybe we should not be telling our children, boys and girls, that they can do anything. This a myth that educators started spruiking in the 80s and it has continued. It just sets people up for disappointment when they get out into the real world. Teach kids to do their best, utilise their talents and work towards their goals, but sometimes things happen that are out of our control. Don't set them up for failure but don't paint a perfect picture of the world that just does not exist. I've interviewed too many young people with unreasonable expectations because they have been fed that lie for years.

I am not sure what I think about women on the frontline. Whether we want to admit it or not men will react differently towards women in the frontline. They might perhaps feel a greater burden to protect the women at their side over and above the normal feelings of camerarderie towards their fellow soldier. It is what it is.

Perhaps all-female units would be the answer in that scenario.

Many soldiers returning from war in Afghanistan and Iraq are protesting in the US over the continuation of the war, so I am not sure why anyone would want to fight in the frontline unless they are defending their territory. I would also fight to keep my children safe if need be, but it would not be a high priority career aspiration.

Houellebecq, it's funny (as in odd) how everyone is 'concerned' at women being raped for their God Queen and country but seem quite happy when this goes on in jails.

'They'll soon sort him out' say the pundits when a child rapist goes to clink.

Odd sort of thinking, OK for blokes but no good for Sheila's.

But that sorta fits in with a misogynist world view anyway, which is why men do so well in the armed forces.

My first assignment in Oz in 1982, whilst working for a US based multi-national, was to ensure compliance with Australia’s 1975 Act and to do the same with our company’s own Anti-discrimination and harassment polices.

In only twelve months we dispatched one MD, two State GM’s and no less that three HR Managers.

Much of what has been expressed in the posts on this thread would have ensured a trip to the HR Office, compulsory counseling, a months pay, a cardboard box containing the contents of your desk drawers and an escorted trip to the front door.

You have a very long way to go boys.

Much of what has been expressed here is all about “I”. I think, In my view, I’m, I’m, I’m.

Worst of all from rehctub, “these women”. What? You are a social dinosaur.

If anyone, regardless of race, creed, age or gender, is denied the right to particular employment that is discrimination. Choice!

Who do you think built the Tanks, Planes, Ships, Artillery Pieces and Ammunition during WWII? Not to mention Civil Defense, Fire Fighting, Diesel Engine maintenance and feeding the kids.

You don’t know what tough is.

I’ve served in the military with women and from what I’ve heard on this thread, I’d select them any day rather than stand along side a bunch of mealy mouthed, jelly backed, loudmouthed and ill informed pussies.

Drag yourselves screaming in to at least the 20th Century for goodness sake.

The Blue Cross,

Well, rape in jails would be punishment I suppose. Bit different to 'our diggers' suddenly now being mums.

It's a whole topic in itself rape. It's a double edged sword these different attitudes to men or women being raped. You hear commentary admonishing notions of 'precious gift', 'purity', 'sluts' etc but the converse is male sexuality is degraded as perverted and perverse (Male masturbation is dirty and disgusting while female masturbation is sensuous and erotic) and not valuable at all.

Then you have the bigger tragedy if a mother gets killed than if a father gets killed. Actually in general 'women and children first' puts more value on female life. Perhaps rightly. And on it goes...

Regardless I don't see misogyny in it all. Misandry if anything.

Anyway these topics are for another time.

Takes nothing away from the very real societal attitudes to women in the forces are different and it puts particular pressure on governments.

True spindoc.. I heard it with my own ears in that fillum called, I think, 'The Queen'.

Whatever it was called, it was about Di's death and what a toerag Phillip was and what a dear old softie Blair was, so early denying any chance of ridding that nation of its bottomfeeding parasites, the Royals.

QE worked as a mechanic in the war.

My granny drove army personnel around during the Blitz, that is, actually during it as bombs fell all around.

And all the factories were full of women, as the doc suggests.

Check out the industrial history and see how jobs were left open for 'the boys' here, once they came back, and women were dumped like a hot potato and lost their 'rights' to work.

Pelican:”Maybe we should not be telling our children, boys and girls, that they can do anything. This a myth that educators started spruiking in the 80s and it has continued. It just sets people up for disappointment when they get out into the real world. Teach kids to do their best, utilise their talents and work towards their goals, but sometimes things happen that are out of our control.”

Yep the “anything” always has a few reality rules surrounding it. One shouldn’t be you are just as capable but the boys can’t handle you doing what they’ve traditionally done or the army is unable to train its soldiers how to treat their female equivalents. Actually don’t they have to learn to get rid of serotypes when dealing with the enemy for their own safety?

Spindoc:”If anyone, regardless of race, creed, age or gender, is denied the right to particular employment that is discrimination.”

But we’ve already seen the courts here uphold that kind of discrimination in favour of who the churches are willing to employ.

Runner why don’t we open the footy teams to the girls. Compulsory half and half teams, why not.

Did you just cringe?

Come on, no one is press ganging females, but we should not judge them by our standards, you too Lady's.
On construction sites around this country I have been in contact with some women who could out drink a drunk, out swear me, out work two men.
Drive the very biggest truck.
And men do not like being shouted at? wish I knew that years ago.
Want to swear right now, women have every right to want and to do what ever they wish.
It comes down to this, our current armed forces are not forced in to uniform they ask for the job.
NOW Rechtub and the anti female brigade, have you thought about female country coppers?
Seen one handle drunks? thugs? mugs?
Ah I am afraid of people who put every one in box's .

Rehctub refers to women in traditionally male roles as a lowing of standards.
- I don't agree at all.

I don't underestimate the innate power of women one iota - and, yes, the role played by women during World War II in Britain is a fascinating area of study.

But why do modern women find themselves "juggling" every facet of their lives - trying to be everything to themselves and everyone else, and in the process continually devaluing one area of their lives to exalt another....a curious way to find fulfillment and liberation.

Poirot

It's just part of the 'we are all so busy' meme that inflicts Western society.

Mainly as a subconcious driving force to ensure consumerism continues, forever.

I don't think women are alone in this at all, just that men express it differently.

Maybe women feel some imposed guilt because they are not 'matching up' to the ads' we see and the 'glitzy' lifestyles of the rich and gormless.

In the end though, it helps to justify the two-incomes 'large garage with small house attached' for the fourcarsnaboat/caravan lifestyle with a plasma in each.

It's all an outcome of our economic-social model.

this isn't a question of equality. Lowering of standards does happen in some cases.
Take the New York Fire Dept. When women decided they wanted to be firemen (or was it firepersons?), they couldn't pass the physical test where they had to carry an adult down a ladder. So what happened? That part of the test was scrapped.
How can that be good? New Yorkers must hope that, if in need of rescue, one of the firepersons is capable of such physical deds, even though they are no longer a requirement.

The term is 'firefighter' Austin.

Was it this thread where we had Bill Bailey utube clip promoted?

The Vauxhall Disappointment gained a mention there, I had one, but I also had an Austin Powerless, better known as an A40.

Worth reading Austin. Looks like the standard wasn't lowered but changed to reflect what actually does happen.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=PJS5P9N4dAUC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=new+york+firemen+women+carrying+victim&source=bl&ots=_eM4fFwS83&sig=pZe2xfEeluCJCr_K3K3jb5yQ4kk&hl=en&ei=IjqlTZbrMoPNrQfjtMD0CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CC8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Given people have grown a lot in size they should be using bigger test subjects but then the men would also have failed the old test.

What is all the fuss? If women what to be front-line soldiers then let them! They know the consequences of capture by a battalion of sex starved men that haven't had a root in 6 months, also knowing that every orifice on their bodies will get a truly jolly Rogering that expense of yours truly.

This to me would be a frightening prospect for most, but NO! A handful of women have persuaded themselves in there interests in this matter, that nothing will happen, coz men in the act of WAR, are apparently very friendly...lol....and these women are ready and will.

I thought you could have sex orgies with-out war......Oh well:) you learn something new every day:)

Some may think there's a erotic twist going on in the minds of some.....but NO....Females in the line of fire!....one can only hope its a war were there shooting blanks:)

LEAP

Jeweley you ask

'Runner why don’t we open the footy teams to the girls. Compulsory half and half teams, why not.

Did you just cringe?'
No I did not cringe. No doubt many feminist would like to lower the standard of football to girl status just so they can be seen as equal. Please don't send the PM your suggestion. This Government would be one intelligent enough to take on board your suggestion. They don't mind being a laughing stock to thinking people throughout the world.

This whole subject is just ludicrous. I'm a man and the last thing I would want to do to express my equality by applying for active service on the front combat lines.

As exposed in a Micheal Moore film, the U.S govt trawls the streets of the ghetto's looking for people whose economic desperation is so profound, that an opportunity to be trained for the role of cannon fodder is attractive. There's not a lot of religious fervour or patriotism inspiring troops in the U.S, just a pay packet when this wasn't possible by any other means in a lot of cases.

Can women also perform in this role, who cares?, it's up to them if their dumb enough or desperate enough.

Isn't it bad enough to afford the consignment of peoples son's to premature death by Govt decree, let alone our daughters as well ?.

Whatever cause some gong banger lobby or interest group(such as radical feminists) attempt to promote.

This is just plain dumb in my view and perhaps we would be best to use some of these tub thumpers for cannon fodder. Thereby removing any opportunity for them to mislead our children any more on subjects like this.

No issues with them being combat drivers, gunners (vehicle and artillery), pilots, and the like. I wouldn't suggest the infantry for them because the infantry is full of people who only need to be able to lug a pack and pull a trigger. People like rectub, for instance.

Runner:“No doubt many feminist would like to lower the standard of football to girl status just so they can be seen as equal.”

Oh my goodness you do just go marching on.

If boys can lower the nursing standards and short people can lower the police standards and Indians can lower the computer standards and blacks can lower the presidential standards and Chinese can lower the trade standards and Japs can lower the nuclear standards then it is probably time for you to eat your hat babe cause the girls want their fair share of everything including death in combat it seems.

Rehctub,

Sorry, but this time you have crossed the line. That was the most blatantly sexist drivel I have heard in a long time.

At that time, they do what they do anywhere else.

STG

"No issues with them being combat drivers, gunners (vehicle and artillery), pilots, and the like. I wouldn't suggest the infantry for them because the infantry is full of people who only need to be able to lug a pack and pull a trigger. People like rectub, for instance."

STG....If WAR ever walked our way again, IMO.... making bullets and bombs for what is most evil, would be the limit of female involvement. But like the threads designers are trying to conclude....
Not all can be equal, unless the one that's wants an equilibrium are willing to suspend there rights on the common-thinking's of past structures, and bend to the new wills of this 21 century.

Look! Most people don't know this, but! Human-kind is right at the moment of new discovery/just taken off baby boots.....and this is brand-new ground No-one has ever walked before!...so I think at this point.....its best to think very carefully.

LEA

I just finished a 14 hour day dodging people with a large truck. I have NO IDEA what you're on about.

Try again if you like, but please leave out the riddles. I can't be bothered.

STG....I have NO IDEA what you're on about.

Try again if you like, but please leave out the riddles. I can't be bothered.

Yes it does take a higher brain function:), why don't we ask Jewely?

She,s a smart women:)

I guess Philosophy......is just not your thing:)

As you were.

LEA

Some true rubbish has been said here, not well done leap, but as it is the best you can do, well.
SM grab something, well said!
A 16 year old girl set out to sail around the world.
Some here wanted to flog her and her parents with a barbed wire whip,she made it.
Others here stoop lower than the NRL/AFL/Military sex problems in print.
I feel less offended by the idiot Afghani who grinned in to the camera and asked whats wrong with our men,than the descriptions of rape here.
We are talking about women who want to fight,not forced.
We are building barriers around half our population.
RUBBISH! that we lower standards, the reverse may be true.
I know of a young Muslim Australian sering over seas in our forces,she is not front line but she should not be put in anyones box.
We will be telling them what to wear next.

Maybe, if you were being slightly philosophical and not just burbling random like a drunk.

Who makes the easier rape victim during war time?

A civilian woman (or man)?

Or

A fully armed and trained soldier?

Many women are extremely strong, naturally athletic and if they want to go to war as soldiers - why not?

Not all men have the brute strength of a Hercules, nor the type of mindset required to go to war.

If people (male or female) want to be soldiers, are capable of doing so, then let them. It is a personal choice that should have nothing to do with gender.

Personally, I would never sign up (attitude to authority) but I have learned self-defense and know my capabilities. Perhaps what we need are more civilian women trained in martial arts.

interesting link, Jewely. What should be done if a fattie is caught in a fire? I'm sure that you know that a fat fire can soon get out of control.

Who makes the easier rape victim during war time?

A civilian woman (or man)?

lol...Well that will depend on what side your bread is buttered:)

STG...Drunk...lol....if I was drunk this is all you would read..

hjsbdibkrbihbke rvghkbnguvgjnrgv hr vhe iu vmDOI E; POIJME. GVJ

To translate for you, If you get caught by the enemy....dont cry Iam only a poor woman. Now the Navy on the other hand would be quite a different story. The chances of being captured is very remote, but again as we have all heard, men and women in the armed forces, does have its problems.

But as foot solders......I dont think its the best idea.

LEA

"...dont cry Iam only a poor woman."

Why not? If that got me out of getting my head cut off I would do it and I'm a dude.

In a way I agree with you, but for the reason the guys in the infantry are REAL twats. Worse than footy teams. If chicks are going to go in to the infantry they need to go in new platoons and not established ones. If they join straight out of school with guys straight out of school they would be better off, but not making up the numbers in established regiments. They would have a 'boys club' wan*er mentality.

Ok, I have some qualms, based mainly upon the females I encountered during various courses. If the cr@p can be weeded out (I don't care how much you need the makeup, I ain't carrying your pack), then that gets rid of most of the issues.

That said, Infantry... Ok I've been in the infantry, if you are stuck in a pit with someone, well if you are stuck in a pit long enough, various calls of nature have to be dealt with, males have a means of emptying their bladder fairly neatly into a container, which can be ditched later, what are the girls going to do? Wear nappies? that would work, but crotch rot is going to be a b**tch.

What will happen to unit cohesion if, maybe when, the anti-fraternisation rules break down (as they just did at ADFA)? What happens when "couples" aren't talking? What happens when they break up? This issue has been avoided with the acceptance (and wholesale avoidance) of the homosexuality issue, so I'd be interested to see how it works.

As for getting raped, our enemies at the present time aren't well known for taking prisoners except as props for execution videos, getting raped would be a minor issue in comparison (and one faced by males as well).

In a hypothetical, battle situation, I personally don't care who, what or why the person beside me is, all I would give a sh**t about is whether they are going to stand and not run away leaving me (or someone else) in the lurch. As long as women are willing to pay the prices others have paid, and a nice quick death is a blessing, I really couldn't care less. They have every right to fight and die (or linger as a legless, faceless vegetable) as anyone else. On the plus side, it is well known that women aren't as soft as men when taking drastic action to its ultimate conclusion, so there is that.

AP:”interesting link, Jewely. What should be done if a fattie is caught in a fire? I'm sure that you know that a fat fire can soon get out of control.”

Hahaha… [cough] that’s mean! Let me think… fat fire you smother or do you pour salt on them?

Leap:”To translate for you, If you get caught by the enemy....dont cry Iam only a poor woman.”

I watched GI Jane so I already knew that.

Why not foot soldiers? Every time the word woman comes up is everyone imagining some kind of delicate flower or something?

Calls of nature I hadn’t considered. But I know you can get this little thingi that – well it makes it so girls can wee like boys. The army must have thought of something already surely.

Ammonite:” Personally, I would never sign up (attitude to authority) but I have learned self-defense and know my capabilities.”

Me either, crazy moos the lot of them but I’ll cheer on their right to be crazy moos.

Hahaha...Jewely......"Me either, crazy moos the lot of them but I’ll cheer on their right to be crazy moos......lol, you such a way with words:) Well..yes! I mean there are other tactical advantages which could provide handy essentials, like.....Lets say! your pinned down by a 50 cal-machine gun, by three towel-heads, and you need a distraction, if a pair of breasts pops over the mound......it just might give that 3 to 7 seconds to fire a RPG and win the day:)

But seriously, STG.." They would have a 'boys club' wan*er mentality......and thats just the point. Why would you if your a female?

She would have to put up with all the things woman hate, its just makes zero sense to me. I guess like there's all types of lads with odd interests, so there has to be an equal amount gals that would for some strange reason, just like that type of male abuse. G.I Jane for instances....if one wants to look at the margins of majority thinkings....being a front line solder has to be put in minority.

But hey, you ballsy cows....if you want play rough, knock yourselves out:)

LEAP

I'm not sure they have, put it bluntly, most people in the upper echelons of the army (or the other services) only put in the minimum time possible as platoon leaders, not grunts. The unfortunate intimacy that is placed upon every person who has to share a pit for more than one or two days at a time is quite "difficult" at the best of times, I'm quite certain the army hasn't considered it. Damn, I don't even like to remember it, having to use excess sandbags in the middle of the night for #2's, trying to lever oneself up against the top of the pit so the urine can be directed elsewhere... Not the most pleasant arrangement to share and one that is virtually unique to infantry (I cannot think of any other situation that requires such drastic measures, except that faced by infantry, that man (will that term have to change too?) front-line entrenchments.

NASA uses a nappy type arrangement (as does the Airforce) for female pilots, however, nappy rash / jock-rot is going to be a big issue if that is the best they can come up with for female grunts (try walking in even slightly urine soaked underwear for 20km and see how much skin you lose). The difficulty is, being able to transition from static positions to forced/route marches is pretty standard, if nappies (or such-like) are used, where and when are they to be changed?

Intimate details like these become boring in the infantry, they are accepted practice. They are also something that is going to become a major issue really quickly given that the infantry is populated by, predominantly, immature adolescent boys. That describes the basic facts of life, the spanner that will be thrown into the works by fraternization (please don't try and say it won't happen), and the associated emotional sagas, jealousy, spats, etc. I wouldn't like to have to deal with. The difficulty is that, as with males, the infantry would appeal, predominantly, to immature, adolescent girls, the mixing of the two, in the ever-so-close quarters, would have predictable results.

That said, I've known many women who are (a) faster; (b) stronger; (c) tougher; and (d) have better staying power than their male counterparts. It is dealing with the details, the seemingly insignificant details that are part and parcel of living in close quarters with members of the opposite sex, in situations that would make the average dog feel decidedly uncomfortable that are going to pose the most insurmountable hurdle.

In fact, I don't know precisely how they would be dealt with, I cannot see how the living arrangements of infantry can be improved to remove these difficulties. The role of infantry determines the lifestyle of infantry, the role being to seek out and close with the enemy, to kill or capture him, to seize ground and hold it, regardless of season, weather or terrain. There isn't any leeway in there for luxuries like separate ablution facilities (if any exist at all), for privacy or anything else. If one member of a Platoon has the trots, every member will know by morning (generally because of the loud noises coming from their mate).

The immaturity angle is going to be a big hurdle too (see for example the ADFA problem). The infantry is for extremely fit, aggressive and normally none too bright individuals (just being honest). They are predominantly young, immature as hell, arrogant and full of their own importance. They generally get out early or transfer as they grow up (infantry have a tendency to break bits, knees, elbows, tendons, etc.), it is a young person's game because it is so very hard. However, young, immature adolescents have a tendency to make dumb decisions, in life, in relationships, in a lot of things.

The problems aren't insurmountable, but it is only going to take a few to cruel it for the rest.

Rechtub still happy you said that?
Happy with the direction the thread has taken.
Or is the fact you only posted once evidence you have had time to think.
Still baffled by you leap, can not find a single post from you that does not look like badly done graffiti.
The type that should be removed fast.

Belly! said...."Still baffled by you leap" ...thats ok....just go and power up your scooter and get some fresh air:)

Belly!...just because other people have a different opinion to yours, doesn't give you the right to appoint yourself as lord of the of all you survey.

Run-along now, thats a good boy:)

LEAP

Aaron how come we still send humans into a war, why are there front lines at all?

I thought with drones and satellites (smart bombs?) the whole idea of flesh vs flesh battles would have become an outdated notion by now.

“On the plus side, it is well known that women aren't as soft as men when taking drastic action to its ultimate conclusion, so there is that.”

Well that’s embarrassing, I thought it would be women who would stop and reconsider what they were doing half way though.

Aussie being Aussie I’m surprised they haven’t privatized the military. Get a few not-for-profit Church/Mosque orgs in there recruiting, training and waging wars (at least it is something they are enthusiastic about). Legally they don’t have to hire females or gays or nuffink so the whole problem would not be an issue the government has to deal with.

Leap you have every right to your view of me.
And the right to say what you think.
I do get a bit upset at adults behaving like kids.
You revel in joyfully talking of rape, being as crude as you can, and not seemingly having to try.
Look around, how many do you see acting like you.
No more for me, you may say as you wish, but you are not worth the effort.
Are you by the way in to your teenage years yet?

"Leap you have every right to your view of me.
And the right to say what you think."

Well that's good then....just so you know, once you get out of your fairy cotton coated environment, the real world is waiting for:)

Oh and don't forget to put the cat out tonight and the chompers by the bed..LOL

Twat!

LEAP

Sorry about that, my computer crashed.

Well, as usual I have my fan club having a shot at me.

Now, I am not suggesting that women can't handle the front line, more so I am asking, should they?

Driving tanks, guiding missiles, flying plans, controlling ships/sub, I have no problem with that, but actually hand to hand combat, that's where I have a problem.

Consider this.

Women are far more at risk of genital infection than men, so, assuming they to have to pee their pants for two, maybe three days straight, do you really think this is practical?

Or, is the alternative to carry a bunch of 'pota potties' around.

I am not sexist however, being willing and able is not the issue. Practicability is the issue I am trying to raise here!

There are simply to many reasons why this is not practicle.

Leap you just shut your cake hole.

I want to meet you and smack you… not one of those “I’m a parent who smacks but not often and only when there is no other way I can think of to handle the situation” smacks either but a great big army dyke smack.

Forrest find him for me!

Rechtub:“Practicability is the issue I am trying to raise here!”

You’re next.

Toileting a problem? 'Business' ditched in the trench or ditch, pull out a 'wet one sachet', wipe, throw it in the trench. Same as doing it in the bush truck driving. In the armoured vehicles, do the business in a bucket with a lid, wipe with the wet ones.

Urinary infections are avoided wiping from front to back Rechtub with "wet ones" minus undies to dry and air the region from time to time. Clean up jobs saved for later after their work is done.

My cousin has been in the army for 30 years as I said earlier and never complained about her overseas assignments.

weareunique,

Thanks for the useful tips....it all sounds like oodles of fun :)

Jewely....Iam backing away...Nice lion:) however I do share Rehctubs point of view. Me being the gentleman that I am in this case:), You just dont send something of such beauty and grace, into what can only be described as horridly awful.

If the government came for my Daughters, I,d be hiding them in the basement. And I love the little ribbing there " a great big army dyke smack"....what exactly are you insinuating;) that all female fighters are in union with each other?

"Now I am not a sexist, but I am a realist and, there are simply some things that women should not participate in and visa versa for men."
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 12 April 2011 9:11:09 PM

...and what he,s trying to say, is pretty clear...but Iam not going to get in the way of a changing world, and All, Iam sure, knows that women in the 21 century will not hold back whats truly their rights to share in the protection of this world/country if the call arises.

Just like I tried to tell belly, each all have our own opinions ( or individuality ), and thats the facts jack!

If men and women are to stand together and fight for all thats dear to us, then so be it! They will not go quietly into the night!....they will stand tall, and give the almighty bird....when death is stared right in their faces.....nor will either retreat or surrender, until death do us part.

If either sexes has what it takes, well then....so be it!

That was LEAP, and thats life:)

Lock and load!

LEA:

Jewely <"Leap you just shut your cake hole. I want to meet you and smack you… not one of those “I’m a parent who smacks but not often and only when there is no other way I can think of to handle the situation” smacks either but a great big army dyke smack."

Rofl!

I just had to see those delicious comments in print again Jewely :)
A lesson for all of us in how to get upset at someone, while avoiding getting suspended, and making others laugh at the same time!

Jewely, I reckon you are a good advertisement for women who should go and fight at the front line, and do very nicely for themselves.

Cheers,
Suze

QL me too, bit harder than jewerly once out of my wheel chair.
Have you posted here under other names.
Ever left a forum feeling unwanted.
Taxi drivers/managers/pilots/police/doctors/nurse/the list is long of women who do hard yards.
Sexist and silly, that is how I find some comments.
Others, well childlike and poor attempts at bullying fit leaps as well as all the others

weareunique, I heard somewhere recently that one requirement for SS training was to urinate in ones pants for a day or two without changing.

How do you think the wet ones will assist here?

Furthermore, I recon the last thing a guy needs, while in the heat of battle is some chick squatting next to him.

Any form of distraction could be fatal, and this could well cause a distraction.

Please, can everyone understand I am not sexist.

I fully accept that women are willing and able to fight, it's just that were do we draw the line.

Thanks Suze I do my best. The times Graham has banned me have taken me completely by surprise.

Sending him unhappy faces via e-mail does not work when banned btw.

Hey Leap, you sod. Nice point about being conscripted but I reckon parents would want to hide their boys as well. We’re told we should raise our children without letting them play with toy weapons – easy enough but no idea why given the world we live in.

New Zealand, Israel, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, South Korea and Scandinavian countries have women in combat roles.

So when at war fighting alongside these countries the Aussie boys wouldn’t be heard across the fields of blowing poppies and crosses in a row saying “hold the torch high” but whinging “Oooo I got girl germs”.

Rehctub:”I fully accept that women are willing and able to fight, it's just that were do we draw the line.”

The problem is that you think it is your line to draw.

>> The problem is that you think it is your line to draw <<

Well said J.

This may come as a shock to the likes of Rehctub; women have been peeing and having periods since humans first started wandering about on 2 feet (maybe earlier) - women have managed (quelle surprise) in all and every situation throughout history, think they just may be able to cope in 21st C warfare.

Well said Ammonite.
I will go one step further and say that I truly believe that women are stronger than men mind-wise, and that they would be a calming influence in a war situation, given the same training as the men.

Female nurses have been in or near the front line of wars since the beginning of wars, and have seen and dealt with a lot of awful situations.
They seem to manage just as well as the men.

It's interesting that we seem to be swapping gender roles to prove something.

Anthropologically speaking, men have always been the warriors and women the nurturers....a highly successful complementary partnership throughout the ages.

That would explain the men being the foot soldiers and the women being the nurses - it doesn't suggest that the female contribution to a wartime endeavour was/is less than the males, just that it is different.

Poirot

Some of the best nurses I know are male. And some females really should go out and be soldiers, please. I'm over bullying female bosses.

Men and women: We're not from Mars or Venus, we're from planet earth.

Suze

Women have been at the front line of all wars - not just as nurses but as interpreters, radiologists and spies - although you won't find Vanna admitting that anytime soon. In fact women have made significant contributions throughout history - just not much by the way of records have been kept.

Wonder why.

Right behind you Ammonite...

Poirot:”It's interesting that we seem to be swapping gender roles to prove something.”

Wiki: Women in the military have a history that extends over 4,000 years into the past, throughout a vast number of cultures and nations. Women have played many roles in the military, from ancient warrior women, to the women currently serving in conflicts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women_in_ancient_warfare

At least four thousand years gentlemen, that’s a hell of a role swap.

And more interesting:

“when we deliberately change sex-role behavior -- say, men become more nurturing or women more aggressive -- our hormones and even our brains respond by changing, too.”
http://www.medicaleducationonline.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=69

Jewely and Ammonite,

Obviously women have participated in a warrior capacity throughout the ages, however, the history of mankind does not support the proposition that women as a gender were represented to any great degree in campaigns.

Your examples are of isolated leadership and other rallying roles, but these are reasonably rare in the annals of military campaigns.

Btw, I couldn't give a toss whether a woman chooses to enter the armed forces as a foot soldier - I'm more interested in the phenomenon. (I've met some great male nurses too - and single dad's who are wonderful nurturers).

Poirot

Pleased to hear ya. Gender doesn't define abilities.

Jewely

No, you go first.

Cheers All

There is an aged old euphoric dictum which says: " The only females who enlist in the Armed Services today, are Bitches, Butch's, dykes, whores, and slobbering romantics looking for a husband to pay the Bills ".

How any Parent in this age of Enlightenment, prosperity and opportunity, can condone and abet their siblings enlisting in the ADF & ADFA, is beyond reasonable comprehension. Especially, as the " Skype Affair " scuttles any credibility in our bone-head, ADF honcho's, who hold their lives to ransom, in their: blokey, testosterone charged, misogynist, juvenile, boozy-filled, homophobic, opaque Faulty-Towers environment ? Indeed.

That poor cadet Kate became the latest sex victim caught on cctv, became Oz's first Camilla-Gate, in all it's colorful, squalid buffoonery.

America"s DADT ( don't ask,don't tell ) Act, hasn't imploded on us yet. Only, because our Services transparency is verboten, and the fags / dykes are tolerated, provided they keep it discreet. So horrendously prevalent is it in the Marine Corps, Navy and at West Point, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, are egregiously dismayed.

Defence Minister Smith, undoubtedly stirred the possum with too much agro. It will be his undoing, as any time now, Gillard will shunt him off to another Planet / Portfolio, where he can DO NO harm. The likes of another accident prone Peter Garrett ; caught up in the Whaling dispute with our largest exporter, ( as if we really cared ) and the infamous Insulation debacle !

Dalma, the thread to discuss your 'aged old euphoric dictum" is yesterday's one started by stephenlmeyer...

Even as Women, serve in most developed Countries, few are committed to battle fronts. Exposed to the fury of RPG's, EID's etc, trauma. In Vietnam, people like Little Patty, Lorraine Desmond, Denise Drysdale etc entertained and provided succor to oversexed, booze-ridden, sex starved aussie males.

In US Bagram & Kandaha AFB, porno films are regularly shown to boost morale, and is widely replicated in all Defence establishments - it's part of Military folklore and ADF culture.

In Smith's view, women will in future serve in the Special Force's, on submarines, in boiler-room 40 degree heat, in grease, paint and excreta. They will carryout all the onerous jobs hitherto been absolved from ? They will have absolute freedom in all the mess's, and can look forward to attaining four star advancement in Rank.

Of course, pregnancy, physical fitness, tatooing, unplanned abortions, showering and privacy will be up for grabs.

Trouble is, science and technology have outsmarted the Military - still engaged in class warfare, awarding tin-pot medals and spurious accolades, self promotion, and delusional third rate, borrowed equipment and armaments. None manufactured in Oz and employing dinki-di aussie tradesman, when our employment rate has skyrocketed in recent years. What a bloody shambles.

Cadet Officer Kate, should thank her lucky stars, she wasn't a spiked GHB victim, and her fantasy video clip, was not broadcast on My Face, Orkut or U Tube.

Now, wouldn't that be something ?

“Btw, I couldn't give a toss whether a woman chooses to enter the armed forces as a foot soldier - I'm more interested in the phenomenon. (I've met some great male nurses too - and single dad's who are wonderful nurturers).”

Me either really. What’s interesting about it? I suppose I thought people stuck to certain fields of work because of pressure from society and it didn’t occur to me that they couldn’t interchange at will if given the chance.

Well, it's best I leave this one alone as I am one who likes women who are feminine and take pride in their feminine appearance. I think I will continue to draw 'my line' where it is. Others can do as they wish.

I have never been one to admire the 'butch' type, but hey, it takes all kinds I suppose.

The two women in my life, my wife and daughter are who matter most to me and both turn to me for the tough stuff. I am a 'man' and they are 'women' and we mutually respect that fact.

I recon that's the way it was intended to be for me as I have been brought up to provide for and respect women, not compete with them.

Cheers.

rehctub,

I understand where you're coming from.

I ask for male assistance with jobs like that - in re-seating or changing a tap washer, even though I could learn to do it. Same with trimming trees and such like.

It's the cooperative and complementary relationship between the genders that tends make each feel valued by the other.
It's not necessarily all about defining capabilities or limitations.

Rehctub:“I have never been one to admire the 'butch' type, but hey, it takes all kinds I suppose.”

In a fight I definitely want the butch type by my side.

A few of my Aunties lost husbands and had to raise children and run farms by themselves. They’d go from throwing bales of hay around in the morning to the church cake sale in the afternoon without blinking an eye.

Uncles that lost wives went and found a new ones quickly because someone had to cook and raise the kids for them.

Oh I think the two world wars sorted the women from the men didn't they?
While it was mostly men that went off to fight in the trenches for those wars, the women were left at home to take over all the jobs the men used to do prior to the wars.

And guess what?

They managed quite well, and often refused to give up their jobs when the men came back from war.

Any guy who still doesn't think women can do almost any job these days is still living in the dark ages.

Suze,

Yes, the women had to step up during both major wars - and they acquitted themselves very well....but let's not be too simplistic and lose sight of the job that the men were doing and the opportunity to "get on with it on the homefront" that their contribution provided.

If we look at the British experience during WWII, for example, the women were in the factories making armaments and learning how to get by on rations - and there was a rare camaraderie in evidence as the population pulled together because "the chips were down".

But the men were busy preventing the enemy from crossing the Channel and invading.
They were otherwise engaged and if it wasn't for this engagement and the "peaceful" homefront that was provided, no amount of camaraderie or female industriousness would have coped with the onslaught.

It is, in fact, a perfect example of the genders working together in complementary fashion.

I agree Poirot. It was a wonderful example of men and women working well together.
Most couples today work well together today too, I would suggest (including my husband and I!).

But the way some posters go on, you would think that women are put on this world just to mess it up!

I won't stand by and allow the denigration of women or mothers to go unanswered on these pages, even though I am well aware that the bitter men who post such drivel are well and truly in the minority :)

STAR WARS!...The new generation:)...........The Feminists Strike Back!......lol... !Evolution made the differences quite clear and for good reason, but little point in telling that story:) And I liked this one...."Uncles that lost wives went and found a new ones quickly because someone had to cook and raise the kids for them...lol. Now Jewely!...There will be No 1900,s talk here.....can you imagine if the rolls were reversed? That would mean men would have to stay at home and the other would make all the money. I just got off the phone with dear old granddad......and he thinks the roids some women are on could change the course Evolution.

Can you imagine females with facial hair and men with hooters.

I would have say this would be quite disturbing.

Women can do any-thing! want a bet:)

Jokes a-side.... The feminist movement in Australia has already broken new boundries, and its about time:(!.....What the HELL have you lot been waiting for!

LEAP

What new boundaries Leap? But yeah your dear old granddad might be onto something there.

I don’t think women can do anything like if the word was in capital letters and bold type. I do question who writes the lists of what things which people can and can’t do.

Me and you know the only thing worse than a chauvinist is a women who won’t do what she is told.

What new boundaries Leap?

Do you real want the full-latest?

Women and men, have a difference of about 0001.2% in brain function. And this works on both sides, depending on whats is being juggled with. The human mind...like all evolutionary creatures, is able to be both, and our environment dictates the relevance and direction in which may inadvertently....change our future:) I mean Darwin was right? wasn't he?

The bible said......Eve was made from a rib! Thats not very nice! and before I go into a lengthy............Gender is about the only difference.

Maybe other members can list the female achievements.

There,s a lot of them:) Trust me! There,s a lot.

But as front line solder,s......I still think, its not a good idea.

XX and XY.

To be, or not to be..........that is the question:)

LEA

“The bible said......Eve was made from a rib! ...”

Don’t forget Lilith, she proceeded Eve and was not made from a rib.

"Don’t forget Lilith, she proceeded Eve and was not made from a rib."

Well! arnt we a smarty:) and wasn't she a nasty woman:) It seems the Jewish interpenetration's comes clear, when describing myth and legion:)

Iam still waiting for the females achievements.

List them down, or the words smart-arsed, is only one of you:)

WAR! Its just for fools.

LEA

Sorry to keep you waiting Leap, what achievements?

The link below I found really interesting, looking at the casualties for civilians’ vs military deaths:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Sorry to keep you waiting Leap.......Love the sense of humour:) Un-like some...........I dont sit here for every waking moment:) They say a coco-nut doesn't fall far from the tree:) Thats like saying, I only live, cause I have too:) Now! Like all things...........I take my time:) ............when I get the chance:)

Interesting link:) But some how, I think humans have bitten off more than they can chew:)

Academic thinkings............only holds dedication, when one applies it:)

I enjoy the lounge:) just like anyone else.

Tell me? Why are females so paranoid? and why do you thing breaking all logic............is going to help your cause?

Just Fu8king wo\ith youo:) Sorry! just a little sort-hand.

Smart? or smart-arsed:) there,s is a fine line:)

LEAP

We’re paranoid because everyone is out to get us Leap.

Not sure we have a cause, do we have a cause, like every single adult female is linked to fight for a single cause our whole lives? We’re chicks Leap not Jews.

Break logic? BREAK BLOODY LOGIC! Leap logic is what forms valid arguments and the power to reason, we worship logic; we don’t break it we nurture it and reshape it with the gentlest of hands until it has been molded and become reborn, we cherish it and protect it until it can be unleashed on our tormentors.

>> logic is what forms valid arguments and the power to reason, we worship logic; we don’t break it we nurture it and reshape it with the gentlest of hands until it has been molded and become reborn, we cherish it and protect it until it can be unleashed on our tormentors. <<

Jewely - you are awesome.