http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/ipad/anti-gay-ruling-divides-church/story-fn6t2xlc-1225976973918

Community Service foster carers can be single, married, in a de facto or same-sex relationship," DoCs said yesterday.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/a-discriminating-decision/story-e6frg71x-1225976813185

In a democracy, controversial issues are best determined by elected representatives rather than by unaccountable judicial activists. This is why the NSW Administrative Decisions Tribunal was wise in its ruling that religious charities are allowed to bar gay foster parents. As the tribunal said, rather than representing a moral judgment about whether churches should discriminate in providing services for which they are funded publicly, the decision rested on the broad exemptions in the Anti-Discrimination Act relating to religious groups. These, it said " may be a matter which calls for the attention of parliament".

http://www.news.com.au/politicians-refuse-to-act-after-churches-win-right-to-discriminate-against-gay-foster-parents/story-e6frfkp0-1225976862266

NSW Opposition Leader Barry O'Farrell also ruled out yesterday any move to push for legislative change on the issue if the Liberals win government next March.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/church-free-to-ban-gay-foster-parents-after-nsw-administrative-decisions-tribunal-ruling/story-e6freuy9-1225976419514

Council of Civil Liberties president Cameron Murphy said churches who received taxpayers money to provide services for the state -as was increasingly the case -should no longer be exempt from discrimination laws.

-/-/-

We have children being cared for under church administration. Can we allow church run organizations that enforce their own beliefs on clients to be handed the custody of state children? Christians as foster parents I don’t have a problem with, a system that supports administering outside of what the government has decided is permissible appears more than a little dodgy.

We also appear to have a parliament that wishes to not address it.

In NSW we have a coalition of NGO’s.

http://www.timetocare.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=2

All are anxious to bring children into the foster homes of who they recruit and manage with a strange mix of Church and non church care and some do recruit gay carers. They are however certainly all on the same page when looking at where the funding comes from.

Is it okay to let religious based organisations discriminate when contracted to supply services to the state?

when it comes to kids
NO ONE CAN BE TRUSTED...!

not church not state
not boyscout leaders
not police not lawyer

not ngo
nor caregiver
not even parents

the best intrests of kids..is a trickey point
is it best to get a good education..or stay innocent

[this is an either or]

i know many [like me]..
who were molesterd as innocents

who got our eyes opened
that adults can be nice...while being hurtfull

i have met so many like me
who know the vile..others do to you
when no one is watching..

when no one will believe you

do you realise
that criminals love the law
even make the law?

the best way to get party loyalty
is have the dirt on your member

[and kids is how they get most of em]

you have kids deliverd..to your door in a com car
if your an important judge or poly or media personage

if people only knew how organised it really is GLOBALLY
maybe they would stress out less on the issue

i have talked to survivers
many thought to be dead..by their parents
are doing easy time..in the cast-les of the world
i have met them on the streets..listend to their stories

let others think them mad
i refuse to be sad
they survived

too many kids
dont survive war

what is in their best intrests
living or dying?

no one in govt will/can.. change a thing
[they cant..they are as guilty as the real perverts]

dont forget
they are organised

they have planned and scemed
because they once..were a victim too

once they* were..the secret..
now they too..hold secrets

"Give me the child for seven years,
and I will give you the man."

Who said that?

Give me the child for seven years,
and I will give you the man."

Who said that?.........

I dont know........A catholic priest!.....lol..

LEAP

Hey OUG, monitoring and keeping children safe within individual homes every moment would be the ideal and with current technology/climate probably impossible to achieve. The question would be who does the monitoring as the current lead agency is the government. The other ideal is for them to actually have complete power which enables them to continue to protect their young clients no matter where they are located.

So the way I see it you have to start at the top and look at the systems in place. For government to hand a child to a sub-contractor they still have to retain the function of protector which in my mind means anyone contracting to government to do a specific job has to follow government rules from the top down.

Once you allow a company to decide they will turn away from their employer’s model they surely cease at that point to provide the service they are funded to do and the government is allowing a standard to be set that can spiral out of control in all areas and negatively affect who it is supposed to be protecting.

Now I guess I’m wondering, with gay couples in this case, how government can continue to support/hire/fund/accept any type of provider that discriminates against certain people when it does not.

I’m not wondering why as I think I’ve seen enough to know what a horrible money hungry mess the whole system currently is here and beyond our shores. What I want to know is if it is generally accepted here and the thinking behind what people really believe the governments function is.

Cheers Leap and Morgan, and remember to teach him to fish don’t just give him a fish etc etc.

There is a difference in allowing Church run institutions to decide who they employ but when an organisation is supplying services on behalf of the government and is paid to do so, surely they become subject to the common law and the rules governing the tender process, whatever they may be.

Government paid services are not multiple choice, organisations picking and choosing as they see fit. Surely the premise is that the regulations or guidelines are handled uniformly across the sector, and there is good faith expectations these services will be provided in adherence with those guidelines.

The vital factor is suitability for parenting, the ability to give love and care to the children in care. That requirement can be fulfilled by all manner of people.

I would imagine if an organisation cannot adhere to the tender requirements they probably would not apply. That is their right.

...The following quote may help the atheists in this thread who argue the separation of Church and State is far from complete, to marry their “idea to the truth”.

Quote…Religion! How it dominates man’s mind, how it humiliates and degrades his soul. God is everything, man is nothing, says religion. But out of that nothing God has created a kingdom so despotic, so tyrannical, so cruel, so terribly exacting that naught but gloom and tears and blood have ruled the world since gods began.
—Emma Goldman, 1910

...Goldmans sentiment is not an ideal I support. More am I disposed to Jeffersons declaration of 1779 on separation of church and state, implying a two way street:

…Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion,… or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” …thus building a wall of separation between Church & State".

...The problem still remains doesn’t it, the power struggle over the wall of separation of Church and State will be one of continuum…

“The vital factor is suitability for parenting, the ability to give love and care to the children in care. That requirement can be fulfilled by all manner of people.”

Yep umm… nup. You’re right but… I have a headache.

Yes when it comes right down to the core of the business it is absolutely the moments in which a child lives and who is caring for them. But they excluded gay couples (I’ve not yet worked out if “gay” and lesbian are considered the same thing) and got away with it so next on the list might be non-church attendees, unmarried people, the divorced and on it goes until they are an exclusive org.

Back at the core of the business are these little individuals from a variety of homes and situations being managed by companies who are allowed to discriminate against and support their coalition members in this discrimination against the types of homes the children may have once lived in or could go on to live in.

These things (besides the gay issue there are other things the private companies currently do which government does not) evolve and I think it should be government’s job to control the rot because those companies will continue to apply for tender (correct word?) and will push to see what they can get away with.

“Surely the premise is that the regulations or guidelines are handled uniformly across the sector, and there is good faith expectations these services will be provided in adherence with those guidelines.”

Guidelines and good faith seems an okay way to hire the girl down the street to babysit for a few hours but for this I’d suggest concrete adherence to strict rules and regulations and no ability handed to any sub-contractor to make it up as they go along.

Aw Dan, gay peoples and atheists pay taxes too and I believe we need that wall.

The churches are well none for their dishonesty ( "Best Interests of Child or Church"..........or foxing new Pay-Days for there lie,s to humanity.

I know gay people very well, and they make better or same as the one,s with heterosexualities, as a main base of their own type of mind space>

( All Thats born here, has the rights to all things )

The indoctrinated one,s are in-fact.....brainwashed to the existences of questionable cause and behaviourals, and would not be surprised at the one,s with careful mind-plannings. ( again..Jaw theme )

But isn't it funny that most of those types comes from religious families...........you be the one to judge in this kangaroo court.

Its the normal one,s that root children:) not gays.

If thats not true, who has ever heard of a gay paedophile:)

Not me......but out of 7 billion people, and very strange at times, there's bound to be one.

Remember....Law is right all the time:) and if its wrong......CHANGE IT!

Have a nice day.

LEAP

The churches are well "known" for their dishonesty ( "Best Interests of Child or Church"..........or foxing new Pay-Days for there lie,s to humanity.

Sorry.....type-O....lol...

govt should be there to preserve the peace
and protect/educate the innocent..

it should be watching
but not judging

helping not hindering

one of the big reasons govt wanted digetal
was it can be used to recieve and send

few know that phones broadcast every word
there is no place govt cannot listen in
[while your watching the tube..the tube is watching us]

its not as if its a great secret

if govt wanted to
it could catch every criminal
jail every pervert
but it dont want to

as previous people have posted
by the age 8 its too late..die is cast

there is a concolation
this is really a prison planet
a 3 dimentional prison if you will
[as we know in jail there are no innocents
were are all rejected by heaven and hell]

the sooner we decide to stop judging others
and seriously look at ourselves..the better it may become

the big key is
that ye do to others
will be given back to you in spades

that we do to the least
we did to god

the church has decieved too many
for to long...govt law education media
are all working for vile

coverd in a sheen of 'good'..
only those who want to be decieved can be decieved..

do unto others ...as you would have be done unto you

See the religious ones have a.........well some what different way of thinking to most...........and was once of great value.

I wonder what, they will do next?........maybe Runner can tell all, that more babies will sit well, with our planetary numbers game?

Lets say Iam wrong and religion is right......can someone please put me in the right direction.

LEAPO

Before I go on, I'll point out that I'm ambivalent on the matter of homosexual carers. I neither support nor condemn here - to be honest, if a particular gay couple is capable of providing better care than a particular straight couple, then it makes sense to me that they should be given the opportunity to care for the child.

That said, the government farms out the provision of care to agencies, including church agencies, knowing what they stand for. If those in the church agencies sincerely believe that to put children into the hands of gay people is to put them at risk, then the government should not expect them to do so. When the time comes to renew agreements between the government and their agents, perhaps they should rethink. If they continue to run with the churches, they have no place second-guessing the church-based decisions. That is, of course, just my opinion.

Otokonoko.........taken and noted.

Anyone else that thinks discriminating against others, is their rights not too..... that conflicts with the law!

Come on Church people...........you can do better than that! Your whole system falls apart at the seems..........when it comes to teaching children, and its well documented.

Gays DONT ROOT CHILDREN!:)

LEAP

"That said, the government farms out the provision of care to agencies, including church agencies, knowing what they stand for."

The government does not work like that Otokonoko. There is a tender process and organisations compete for a piece of the funding pie in relation to the services being sought. There are guidelines and expectations. If they cannot be met organisations generally do not apply, or they may give it a shot, but success depends not only on cost but on quality of service and ability to deliver within the stated guidelines.

I understand that, pelican. When you put something to tender, though, you have an excellent opportunity to select the best offer. You could go for a cut-price, no-frills service; alternatively, you could go for a more expensive, higher quality service. You can negotiate terms and conditions. None of this changes the fact that the government was aware of (or should have been aware of) the nature of the beast when they took church services on board.

at least two of blue leapers previous posts have imp-lied
and declared gays arnt homo towards children

[something sothing gay pedophiles dont egsist]
or some others such clap trap

gay means homo[same sex]
pedophile means child lover
[yes it must be harsh to be called a child lover]lol

but homo childlovers are BY FAR the most common
i was raped by a man[a homo 'childlover']
i prefer the word pervert
or child assulter

or homo child perversion pervert

or maybe just a child-leaper
or child leaping creepy pervert

or just a sic* leaper

im not sure if your only trying to be ignorant blue[leaper]
but you sure are consistantly stepping in your own doo doo

[its just we cant be botherd
reading ya posts to point it out]
so just ignore your destractions..[usually]

Maybe the problem is that this industry is an “industry” with many private companies trying to build up their individual businesses. Church has been in this sector doing what they want for many generations while only the government is held responsible later as the lead agency. As “later” can mean decades this appears to leave no present accountability or responsibility today.

From www.nsw.liberal.org.au
“ In line with the Wood Inquiry recommendations and NSW Labor's response, commit to continuing the handover process of out-of-home care to non-government organisations.”

All those children considered in terms of a handover process because an inquiry saw something not working and decided the solution was to give the problem to someone else. No inquiry was first made into the non-government sector.

Why are our government departments not required to do their job instead of handing it to the private sector and paying more for the same service to be carried out? If they are failing how can they prevent and police failure in others.

As with the gay couple and other policies in place within the government department it becomes obvious there is no attempt to control the private sector. It sets a worrying precedent as these were adults who could challenge what was happening to them, the children have no voice as OUG knows.

Jewely,
Seems to be problems whether the kids are instatutionalised or placed in foster homes. I have no experience in this so will not comment, except that I hope you can achieve an improved outcome. Stay strong and persistant.

Quantumleap,
Your first post indicated that you thought the issue funny, how come?
Next you claim that gays do not root children!

What then do you call those males that abused the little boys in boarding schools and childrens homes? They are homosexuals and peadophiles without any doubt.

Clearly some homosexuals abuse children as do some hetrosexuals, so stop trying to paint gays in a better light.

Jewely:

...I think your position posits itself as accusing religious organisations as being untrustworthy. That is a very, very long bow to draw. The Church is not in a “sector” doing what it wants at all. In this case it is a child protection agency which is fully accountable to the appropriate Government authorities of child protection. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

...You also suggest it lacks worth, since it refuses to deposit children into the hands of sexual deviants; (into the hands of homosexual couples). The church has every right to a particular view on Christian morals of the moment. That “moment” amongst Christians is in a state of flux, since not all religions adhere to that position. For example the Anglican Church has openly gay clergy and women priests. So under your moral judgment, they would qualify in making you feel happier about the churches position in dealing with gays.

...But not all religions take the same view as the Anglicans; and neither should any moral position be imposed by the state on religious groups, as would be the case if forced to abide by anti discrimination laws now current.

lol...carm your farms...just string the pot so to speak:) OUG and you can talk about posts that people ignore...lol...thats rich! As soon as I saw the title.....lol....I just pissed myself laughing...( its like people haven't figured it out with some priests and they still go to church..lol ! I thought my first post with Morgan would of given it away, but I guess not...lol ...And banjo....your spot on! Yes it would be bad to be-little gays would,nt it:) Look......if lot cant see the funny sides to it all, thats not my fault.

Personally......I dont trust any humans period! and all you lot have managed to do, is to confirm what I just said. WOW! Spread the paranoia to the point where all parents, gays, teachers, business people/professionals/that are involved with children/ church officials/ and the lists seem to go on forever..lol...

Folks.....I,d lost faith in human society a long time ago. And from what I,ve seen in my life-time.....it wont be back any-time soon.

Well done and thanks for proving my point:)

Society! The big winner.....lol...if only you could see yourselves:)

Have a great day.

LEAP

Woops..."clam" your farms!

LEAP

Cheers Banjo. I try, mostly I fail.

Yes they are a sector Dan and yes they do deviate from what government does and are merely accountable to a failing and exhausted government department.

I guess sexual deviant is correct according to my spell checker thing. Not sure what that has to do with parenting though. Remember the NSW coalition members support their members that do recruit gay peoples as foster parents. Money being mightier than imposed morals.

“But not all religions take the same view as the Anglicans; and neither should any moral position be imposed by the state on religious groups, as would be the case if forced to abide by anti discrimination laws now current.”

You believe religious groups can hold a moral position and impose it on the state? Oh - hahaha... look who I'm asking.

Possibly in the past that was true to some extent Otokonoko. Perhaps future tender processes will be more detailed as far as expectations to offset those areas where there may be discrimination.

Don't forget that DoCS has by far the worst standard of parental responsibility in the community, whatever measure you go by: placement breakdowns, teenage pregnancy, illiteracy, mental health, etc. etc. etc, - whether compared to the standard of natural parents, or of so-called NGOs.

DoCS doesn't even comply with the standards that it dictates as compulsory for all the other agencies. In about 2001 they gave themselves - wait for it - 12 years to come up to scratch. Time is running out, and they still don't comply, notwithstanding the billions poured down this bureaucratic black hole. But don't worry- they've got lots of flex leave, holiday leave, family leave, study leave, community service leave, Aboriginal leave, purchased leave, extended leave, sick leave and what have you.

So to assume that government has some kind of moral superiority in setting standards for parental responsibility, or child protection, is a joke.

This is not to knock individual foster carers, many of whom do a great job; but I doubt the general standard of parental responsibility in state care as a whole is higher now than it was in the bad old days of state orphanages and reform schools.

It's not as though state care does *not* involve discrimination, since every human action necessarily does.

For example, the state does not "discriminate" against de facto and step-parenting marriages, even though the rates of child abuse in such relationships are significantly higher than in natural-parent families. What makes anyone think the state is presumptively wiser or better at doing what families do?

DoCS doesn’t have a far worse standard of care Peter, it’s just the one that makes the headlines as the “Lead agency”. They do have a much larger job than monitoring their own Out of Home Care services.

But part of this problem is of course that DoCS does need improve and not pander or be bullied by the NGO sector along the way. Not sure I’d go complaining about the govt types of leave that staff have when we have companies with not-for-profit tax status paying their staff higher salaries and all the benefits that come with being so comfortably funded by the government.

Nope I don’t for one minute think government morally superior but they are the only ones we’ve got who work under the act. We need them to do their job which is to care and protect all children and improve their own services, not pass the buck.

If the rates are significantly higher in those homes you will probably find the state has removed more children from homes just like them. This is part of what DoCS do that has nothing to do with the private sector although the NGO’s increased roles in early intervention probably means they can easily advise DoCS that children should be removed into their care, a little inter-agency perk being able to pick your new clients and another flaw in the system where the private sector can profit from their own failure.

Those bad old days weren’t just about state orphanages and if you read stories of The Forgotten and The Stolen you will find church run institutions in most beaten, raped and damaged lives. Those bad old days never left and it is still happening to children now.

If NGO’s were removed from foster care completely and given the support services and early intervention we might actually finally have some decent advocates for children and families.

I strayed a bit there.

I’m more interested in whether we believe it is acceptable for a public service to tolerate its sub-contractors following their own private agendas in an area that is about appropriate care for all children.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/uk-high-court-upholds-bar-on-christian-foster-parents-over-homosexual-views-49219/
“The judges argued that there had been no religious discrimination against the Johns because they had been excluded from the fostering application process as a result of their moral views on sexual ethics rather than their Christian beliefs.
They added that the right to manifest religious belief outlined in the European Human Rights Act was only a “qualified” right, particularly where it concerned potential carers who wish to manifest a belief that is “inimical” to the interests of children.

Are we getting it wrong down under?

i will ignore the getting it wrong down-under bit
and reply the ngo thing is just going back to how it was
[before the church got kids for their priestly pleasure]
now its that ngo

its quite clecver really
before the perverts only needed a 'clean skin'
to become a foster parent..but then
they had to watch out for govt workers

now its just an ngo
child perversiion perverts can sit openly on the board
do as they like..just like in the good old boy days gone by
when the church did their perversions

its hard to stress out about these things
[its weell known homo couples get more money than a married couple
they seem to have plenty of disposable company..and now can get a pet[child]..whenever they want

you must realise these people are far ahead of us
too clever..they have been playing at satisfying their perversions for ever..even if the last perversion stoped today

they still got the karma to life in their next life
ie to get back as they gave..to taste the oppisite of that they did to others..[to be a victim this time]

there is a true accounting
for everything we each of us do
we might fool others

but we cant fool the guilt/shame..
we CHOSE to heap into our souls

just be the love
give it freely

never try to steal it
it will always be paid..repaid..in full

[we can only con ourselves in the end]
the foolers ..[those who think to fool others]..

are the real fools..
[in the end]

"im not sure if your only trying to be ignorant blue[leaper]"....lol..well clap, clap for the handy-capped:) Although I find this in my mind incredibly funny, what Jewely is pointing out, is far from a joke, that the GOOD OLD DAYS has not be addressed and if any thing...The bad new days....has increased ten fold, with the sexualisations that appears all over the broad-casting net-works. Add that with a higher density population of human -beings..........and OUG.....what do you think the out comes will be?...........And if you dont answer......your just a tool:) I,ve had first hand knowledge with the departments, and let me tell you............there far from getting it right as to where it comes to common-sense.

I have quickly just typed this in......but when said higher upper levels just parasite on others......you believe it.

LEAP

quote the cheap leap creap""and OUG.....what do you think the out comes will be?...........And if you dont answer......your just a tool:)""

i dont expect ANYTHING to change

i been trying to change govts permitting public servants
to do their business as usual..for too long..to expect anything to change

we can change govt[between the parties]
but the public service runs the two party system
ie.. we keep the same public servants..doin their same games

from within govt
as well within the party systems

i would like to see the higher levels
of public service retired immediatly

...anything abouve desk staff is suspect
the public ser-vice needs to be held to account

immediatly

""I,ve had first hand knowledge with the departments, and let me tell you............there far from getting it right as to where it comes to common-sense.""

the public service is about serving the service
not the public

""I have quickly just typed this in......but when said higher upper levels just parasite on others......you believe it.""'

its not a thing i believe
i just sadly know the truth about how things
are made to workout for some..and never workout for others

i have seen too much in this life
i know that the vile..[in the end]..only hurt themselves
we are here but for a brief time..just enough time to generate enough karmic rope...to hang ourselves..on our own petard..

no one judges us in the next stage of life
but we are auto sorted..by the things we love

those loving to muder go to the room of perpetual muder
murdering only each other

those liking to hurt kiddies
go to the kiddy room..where the kiddies only hurt their other 'kiddies'..for eternity..[talk about hell..you get as you gave]

[its said
be carefull of what you chose to love..
because the next life is about doing..only that you 'love' for eternity

more will be given
both sides of the coin
knowing the vile

*can only hurt the vile

[why i hate this..
is that that we do..or is done to one
[even to the most vile]..is done to the one
sustaining the life of us all]..

[ie that we do to the least..we do/did to god]

and god hating god
dont bear thinking about
thus the need/urgency..

to see the good[god]
sustaining each living their very life

one to one
personally..in all of us...

as previously said many times
they said of jesus

ye shall call him..[emmanuel]

meaning..god within
*us all

no-one can be all bad
if god is in them sustaining them to live

the collective god LOVES a repentant sinner
and thankfully in time ALL repent their love of vile
reject the dark/damp hell..and seek

[yearn with a passion..
for the light/love/logic..sustaining all life]

atonement
at one meant

OUG.....Not thats its any of your business....but to save you from any more embarrassments......if you are calling me a child abuser....I,ll let you in on a little secret:) I know the departments well:)..... cause we had a little disagreement ( they do get things wrong at times:) 12 years ago. Now all fixed ......My family and I were given an all-expenses fully paid for trip to QLD by the Department of Family Services with children.lol...so before you get into legal trouble....I suggest you go back to your sand box, like a good little boy:)...lol Now!, do you anything productive to say? or are you just going to run away like a coward?

LEAP

OUG:”i will ignore the getting it wrong down-under bit
and reply the ngo thing is just going back to how it was
[before the church got kids for their priestly pleasure]
now its that ngo”

I’m quite sure it has always been about money and finally other types of non-Church companies have also got their foot in the door. Stepping on Gay toes I thought might have lead to a bigger outcry about how these companies have set themselves up to handle public matters while following their own private agendas.

This would affect aged care the same and other services the govt offers but in reality merely funds.

Humans don’t have a great track record of being able to do the right thing when their income dictates otherwise. We’ve seen the articles on how much these companies get and where it is leading to ignoring the abuse of children in care.

http://www.thecourier.com.au/news/national/national/general/child-agencys-background-checks-under-cloud/2024557.aspx?storypage=1
''There's a financial incentive to keep the child with the carer even if the carer is not up to the plate,'' a former manager said.

i have no thoughts about you leap
[wouldnt think to name you what you named yourself in your last post

if your reacting to the creap that was a referance to your tendancy to read into things not written..things you only feel were

ie how you have a tendency
to creep past what was in fact...said
to the thing..you think was said..or wanted to respond with or to

as said i think no more or less of you either way
it matters not to me anything you do..are or think to be

dear jewel..i have loved you for so long
i love the way you care for others without being creepy or weak

anyhow..for many..it is money
but for most its apparently about power
[just as rape is said to be more about 'power']

ie those afraid of adult relations
seek to express their drives upon victims..[children]

apparently size does matter
i have noted the smaller /younger the adults look
the more likely they have recieved abuse..it goes on accross generations as well...molesterd mothers often set up their daughters

that being said
yes money is a tool..
be-loved by those facilitating..all sorts of crimes

[they go to a 'different
worse type of hell]..in with those
who do ...any*thing..to get 'your' money
their delusions know no end..[there is no 'money' in the next life]

it is sad..what the drive for 'money' will lead to
but true sin ..is a love of sin..burned upon their hearts

they really love doing their vile
[to others]

mostly those who abuse the weak old young and helpless,...are so full of fear..they are the only ones..they DARE go near..being them selves so small/petty and pathetic..are ones spiritually/egsactly like themselves...

its..a path-etic..path-ologic..
but fear..has made them blind..as well as dumb

anyhow

now
i must

leap

quote from
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/genetics-of-tyranny-psychopathology.html

The ratio of parasites
to host must be kept quite small,
or the entire host population might be wiped out leaving the parasites unable to survive.

In the past, when the drain became too great, the host population has attempted to exterminate the parasite, hence the repeated cycle of bloody revolutions throughout history.

Evidently, the effort at eliminating the parasitic infestation has never been fully successful.

Threatened with extinction, the psychopath displays great skill at hiding in plain sight.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/160925-Tunguska-Psychopathy-and-the-Sixth-Extinction

A psycho-camouflage of sorts is employed, allowing the parasite to mimic a sense of sorrow, dismay or other feelings not actually present in the psychopathic character.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_24_170/ai_n26711276

Some always manage to survive
by temporarily blending with the host population.
http://www.blogger.com/%20http://ratguide.com/health/digestive/endo-parasites.php
anyhow it has many interesting links

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_24_170/ai_n26711276/pg_2?tag=content;col1

http://agoraphilia.blogspot.com/2007/11/psychopaths-as-hawk-strategists.html

OUG..LOL..your more easer to wind-in than a flat-head...Idoit...LOL

Just keep on taking your pills:)

LEAP

Thankyou OUG, shuddup Leap. :P

The more I think about it the more I don’t understand why Christians allowed themselves to set this kind of precedent because next a Muslim NGO will start fostering kids and find Christians have already fought and won a battle that will allow them to reject all Christian foster parents that apply to their agency.

Reminder: I don’t mind Muslims fostering it’s just an example I’m using.

Isn’t it the government’s job to stop this from happening in a society that supports the right of different belief systems to exist?

Interesting stuff OUG, I read them, one link didn’t work. I’m going out catching yabbies with my girl now and try not thinking about what a mess everything is. I might be a little weak because I’ve noticed the more I think about what I understand is happening and what I’ve seen happen to children here I start feeling sick.

jewel quote""I’m going out catching yabbies with my girl now and try not thinking about what a mess everything is."'

thats the only way to bring change
[real change is only within]

people thing this place can be heaven..but in thinking so dont reralise this place's role..in the great sceme of things

this place is more like a prison
or a sandbox...its where spirits come to release passions
[or discover passions]..its the fix all between perfect loving heaven..and perfect hell..for the legiimatly dangerously..insane

here any 'damage we individually can do..is strictly limited
[im not sure how the mass murder by atom bomb fits it..but appriciate the sheer destructive mass hasnt had a repeat][and feel thats made deliberastly so][by design not accident]

""I might be a little weak because I’ve noticed the more I think about what I understand is happening and what I’ve seen happen to children here the more I start feeling sick.""

you are certainly not alone in this jewel
[only know..it is so ingrained in our human condition
so generational..so addictive...[that often the victims become oppressor]

[it relates to the links..in that phycopaths are created[its a learned response..where the fearfull and weak..get addicted to what they percieve their new powers..but has such 'satisfaction once aquired...the weak lack any self control..to end it...

[think like adenolin junkies]

its not a matter of why Christians allowed themselves to set this kind of precedent because these things trancend simple religious beliefs..[plus its not as if the were the one to allow or forbid

so what if say a Muslim NGO..will start fostering kids
it matters..how much the kids are helped[or potentiaslly damaged]

its really SUPPOSED to be..about the kids]

""Isn’t it the government’s job""
strictly speaking..its a policing..and community busy/body..issue

but they been destracted..by chasing kids with drugs[etc]
or sitting..on a speed revenue-raising trap..
or sitting-on their bum..in court's

[ie..given make work..to stop them policing for real/crime]
in truth..i feel the kids..should be moniterd by automated/computer..monitoring...24/7

measuring their fear response..
with ..instant overwelming response/mandated
..to/for...by community and police..[by law]..

upon the computer indicating
help is needed....immediatly
*NOW

Jewely
>"We need them to do their job which is to care and protect all children and improve their own services, not pass the buck."

Good luck with that.

Yes the fact is there is no substitute for parental love, and church, state, and NGO organisations have problems which cannot be fixed up. I reject the presumption that the government necessarily makes things better than worse, which indeed DoCS has never tried to prove. They, like you and everyone else, just assume that if there's a problem, *therefore* government must be able to make a worthwhile improvement. But I question that. Fact is, bureaucracies cannot provide parental responsibility better than any but the absolute worst cases.

(PS It is not really fair to call NGOs by that name, since if their entire funding comes from government, they are not *non*-governmental organisations, are they?)

OUG:”so what if say a Muslim NGO..will start fostering kids
it matters..how much the kids are helped[or potentiaslly damaged]
its really SUPPOSED to be..about the kids]”

True, I’ve found that people don’t think about helping the kids but if you can find the right argument that affects them then it can help kids by coincidence. Damn sad really.

Would be nice if legally there were more facts required before the removal of a child, and if lawyers were all equal and parents could afford the same kind that government funds make accessible. If real police work was done prior to children being taken from families and the people accused first charged and able to defend themselves in a court of law. Once a child is in care proper and responsible monitoring would be literally a life saver.

Hey Peter, they call themselves NGO’s – I don’t believe it is fair to refer to them as not-for-profits either but they make all the rules.

Problem is that no one let or demanded the government make it better before passing it on over to the NGO’s (who have always had their hand in) and lord only knows where any proof was found that they could be considered an improvement.

Parental responsibility being taken from biological parents has been happening for a long long time and it has created damaged young people for a long long time. What I was attempting AGAIN to point out is that in no way is it going to improve with the systems currently in place and that quite recently the system again proved itself to be failing by allowing NGO’s to run state business in a discriminatory way which is against the states own policy.

The only thing that hasn’t been attempted in Australia’s incredibly tragic history of caring for state wards is actually letting the state handle it without NGO interference.

Shame on both sides for prolonging this destraction. [ALL LIFE COMES FROM GOD ] [one crea.....OUG...Do you remember your first post to on line opinion?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7360#113575

Dont mess with me my friend.....coz you have No-idea of whom your dealing with. I personally, am concerned about your mental health. I will apologize for not reading into the points your trying to make. However after careful consideration, I feel you need to talk to someone about whats bothering you on a scale Iam not qualified to advise you.

Please take care.

LEAP

jewel...you musnt let the vile get to you
you have done much good...
[you can only help where you find
the fruits of the vile..are still doing their hurt]..

regardless of the hurt's cause's
[be they karmic malice or deliberated injury]

we must get away from the hurting..
and get into the healing

thats where you do your thing
you are the love..you are better in just doing the love

others..[not that good at healing..[loving]..like me]
can assume the other burdens..your only expected to heal those who come to you hurt..

its only if you deney helping..[which you dont!]..
that any stain could taint your soul..

even so no one is perfect
[ok only one...'god']

we are ALL..doing the best that we can
dont judge an unfinished work]

[even the most vile...still can earn credit to the good]

every good
has its good rewards..

[its never too late to reject hurting others]

god loves a repentant sinner
[recall the words..'all is forgiven
..go and sin no more']

its not your duty to end it jewel
only to do the love you so clearly do

judging no-one..
[as we judge others are we too adjudged]

but we both know..thats not in you
[or if it is your succesfully resisting it doing its vile]

im not that strong

if i feel..one is supporting*..the doing of a bad..
i share it right back at the source...

anyhow stay stong

next...the boy with the burr in his fur

i feel the urge comming on
i dont feel like resisting

and so direct my mind to the hell
from which the thought came

the point of the creeper/leapers quote..

""Dont mess with me my friend.....
coz you have No-idea..of whom your dealing with""

ohhh lordy lord

if you cant reply to the topic..
dont try to troll away from..the important things

but what is more abusive of children
than killing them

and murder of their parents
matricide patricide pedi-cide?

genocide by any other name..!

heck i cant
not resist.;....

so you must be..one of them?

supporting/justifying the unjustifyable...

attempting to be a selfish self important/
wanna-be omnipotant zionista war monering oppresor
picking on the weak..

http://www.revoltoftheplebs.com/categories/occupied-palestine/israel-spoiling-for-another-fight/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/racism-in-israel-getting-uglier-by-the-minute/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/goldstones-u-turn-justice-for-israel-or-injustice-for-gaza-three-views/
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7yH%2bWFLS9aIW3ynyLNL4xorlAVQcxyAPXmeiy4%2frDtBM%2bLWJzhQ7tkGAOBXb5juy7I09xvMpgBOrsNyE7y31c0D660Ekpy%2bMOWEeiuHufUBQ%3d
living a vain-gloriois past
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/israeli-leftist-press-joins-in-trial-sans-jury-in-settlement-murders/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4055060,00.html
http://uruknet.com/?p=m76727&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://vidrebel.wordpress.com/2011/04/10/zionism-undone/
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=216057
[bombing prisoners in prison camps
operation cast lead..killing hundreds of kids]

it explains much
about your eratic posting's

anyhow a nice try at a flaming..off-topic troll*
so will give you the ignorances..your type deserves

[do your worst you futile feeble twoddling godless creeping leaper]
we are all children of the one father..[the one god]

you may deney that god egsists..but wont be able to deney doing bad in lue of trying to help doing the good..

[for others..not just your self]..
this stains your soul..thus deserves only pity..

life is about seeing the ill..the bad..the injust
and then trying to help make things better

[doing nothing
is the same as doing the vile]..

once you seen it..if your not trying to stop it..
your just as guilty..as those doing it

OUG!..Are you one of the retired Catholic brother-hoods? Cause theres a theory I have about the one,s that cry Child protection the loudest........and why they do it, to in-fact throw the scent off themselves by playing the righteous-one,s.:) By the way...Iam Satan! And psychopaths is the name of the game...lol....and this time your god will not win!

Jokes A-side.....I have read deeply into your mind-set, and have found some very disturbing trends that dont comply with normal brain function.

70 percent of humans are in-fact connected to the animal kingdom, which we have derived from, hence our hunting and gathering societies, which still trade like we did from the beginning:)

So if we are all psychopaths....that means your the righteous one,s that have a higher-sense of reality above all else.

I take it all back!, OUG......your completely normal after all....LOL love the links by the way:)

You take it easy:)

LEA

“ Cause theres a theory I have about the one,s that cry Child protection the loudest........and why they do it, to in-fact throw the scent off themselves by playing the righteous-one,s.:)”

And ones that really care the most according to your theory never say anything or try to help children?

Leap but you are trying to injure a person by saying what you have for no other reason than to cause as much harm as possible. It’s shameful that you looked and thought about what would offend the most then attempt to laugh it off.

My theory is that people who try and distract threads deliberately show their own true colours on the matter at hand, you’re like an OLO filibuster.

Can you tell me why the Church would want to set a precedent of exclusion while carrying out a public service or why the government would allow such a precedent to be set? Do we have active secularism supporters currently in our government?

thats a good question jewel/quote.."Can you tell me why the Church would want to set a precedent..of exclusion while carrying out a public service""

to their way of thinking
[ie the ones..that are thinking they really want to help]
they really believe..the only way to god is via jesus[may peace be upon the peace bringer]

to thier way of thinking..
to let others do good..will only condem the do/gooder..
as well as they ones they helped..into an eternal dammnation..

[sadly they dont realise the only sorting
is those who did good..from those who loved to serve evil]

they really are thinking they act of good intention

then there are the other..[extreemists]..of all faiths
who only wear their 'faith'..like a wolf wears a sheep skin..
to kill more sheep...

[yes the leaper who claims to be sat-on..
could likely..reply his mates motivations better..]
but he is so up/down..[mixed-up..in his eratic postings
as to put even that faint hope..into doudt..[thus i give it a go]

faith is useless without works
[jesus said by their deeds will we know them]

""or why the government
would allow such a precedent to be set?""

you must realise that govt is a generic catch all
individuals are consiously chiosing to be serving evil.
.as well as those really trying to do public service...

all claim to work for the people..but like all those pretenders[leapers]..out there..arnt allways what we would hope them to be

[again jesus spake of this]

dont judge the wheat from the tares
they will be obvious at harvest time

[ie revealed...by what they did or didnt 'do'
or promised to do/be and wernt/..didnt do]

"'Do we have active secularism supporters
currently in our government?""

well juliar is a closet christian
[as revealed by her stance on gay marrage]

but she is a closet xtian..
though she would deney it to her grave..
by her works is she revealed..her stance on gay marrage
speaks most clearly even on what sort of xtian..she really isnt pretending to be..

not enough faith for truelly good works
but still this puritan steak..that thinks
she can cure evil smokers..by bad taxes..

its only too obvious once you know
its not what they say..

ie[honour god/good with their lips]
..but what they chose*..to do..when they were called..to do

[im not saying wether..she is bad or good]
..just saying her words..[talk..]..
dont match her walk..

just leaping[creeping]..in the dark
rebelling..trying hard..to not be..
what she hated..her parents being

Your quite right Dr OUG, and thank-you for letting me lay on this On Line couch, cause......you might be able to help me with a problem:)

When I was Four, I dropped my favourite lolly-pop in a muddy pool of salty-water and haven't been able to stop surfing ever since!............can you tell me, is this why Iam the person I am today?

LEAP

leaper quote..""you might be able to help me with a problem :{""

as its clear you have some 'issues'
so..sure
lets have a go at fixing your problem's

but please dont have high expectations
our talking cant change things
see you are the result of your lifes experiences

[take your belief that you think your satan[for egsample]
see satan is like the ester bunny..
and satan/clause
..oops santa-claws

they might be reral as concepts for ignorant children
but have no factual basis in reality..neither here or in the next life

there are of course real demons[se thats where bad thinking comes from
you think a bad thought..lusty thought about a child
and instantly demons are attracted to your thought...

[and with their still mind voices
saying the vile things your mind is saying..for 'you' to do
well..if you give into their urgings..well they win..your commiting their wanting you to sin

satan has nothing to do with it
you had the thought..that attracted the demons
and then chose to follow their 'urgings'..you could have rejected the thought

but clearly are so used to the demonic voices
you really believe you thunk it

but i see you have more questions

""When I was Four,
I dropped my favourite lolly-pop
in a muddy pool of salty-water""

well there are a few problems i see in this mr leper
lolly pops should be eaten..not kept in a special place..to become your favourite thing

also as jesus said about not putting favourite things near much[dont cast pearl before swine]..you shouldnt have put your 'favourite thing'..anywhere near the muddy mucky toilet water

its worth remembering the flush button
it is a clever invention..learn to use it to flush away muckey salt water[i dont need to know how you knew it was 'salty'

""and haven't been able to stop surfing ever since!""
there is nothing wrong with surfing
but its likely your only addicted to the salty water

i suggest surfing with your mouth closed
and soon the lack of salty taste will cure your surfing obsessions

""............can you tell me,
is this why Iam the person I am today?""

its not your fault
you just get a little confused
loyypop's and surfing..[for egsample]..
have nothing to do with this topic..*

i know how confusing listening to those voices can get..
i hear that they can seem very convincing..but

your now a big boy..now you can chose between obeying..the good voices..
and ignoring..the ones saying to drink the salty water and eat the muckey muck...

its your choice

oug..LEAP'ssssss

Thank-you Dr OUG, I,ll do something about those voices soon....but there sooooo hard to resist when it comes to little angels of easter/santa claws....see I put on my red suit, and the joyful one,s enters my world..and then the demoms takes over, and.....I just cant talk about it any more.

Is there some advice you can give to me to ex-spell the monsters?

The REAPER:)

positive thoughts are like poisen to them

they get energised by bad negative thoughts
repulsed by loving kind thoughts

its as simple as
as soon as you recognise the thought as bring bad
to self or other..CHOSE to change the thinking to loving thoughts

an egsample is called for
say i think mean things about you
i turn that negative away from me..saying he is a good person
[only being 'led astray'..by influences of which he is unaware of]

my replying his vitriol with my own vitriol..
will only make things worse
[only attract vile into me..
as well as make more vile into him]

we each giving in to the vile
only ensures the vile voices..within..win[us over..
into their hell]

there is truth in the saying..
satan claims only his own

[satan representing..the vile..[inner voice demons]
just as easter bunny represents easter]

even now in replying
im having thoughts that blue is winding me up
i had to suppress that negative thinking to write nice

we all must chose between the good/bad

what good is there in bad..that couldnt
just as easy be all to the good

loomk at how jewel and foxie are beloved
they dont need to be mean
why should we?

its as easy as trying to love thy neighbour
by resisting any 'urge' to be 'loving',.. his wife..
[or kids]..as in the lower forms..of that some still call love]

we are what we allow ourselves to think
the thoughts...we chose to make* real

demons..can only claim their own
are completly poweless before love
they need us to fear..need us to hate

ONLY..then..
they can claim us..as theirs

anyhow returning kind for kindness
cheers

Yes OUG....I was just pulling your leg:) I thought you might of got the hint....by Jewely saying.....shut-up leap:) but what you think, as me reading into some-thing that isn't there, I,ll leave you with this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BaGHKe5oi0&feature=related

OUG! There are very smart people on this world.....dont be miss-taken that your the only one.

LEA

OH....And cheers to you too mate:)

LEA

Anyone bored? I want to understand this:

http://www.partnerships.org.au/ThirdSector.htm

“Nor does it matter to policy makers, who have inherited a highly instrumentalist approach to social policy. Voluntary, charitable, self-help and mutual forms of association are now typically deemed by policy makers to be simply instruments for the achievement of policy objectives. These objectives are usually prescribed in terms of the transfer of units of service or care or knowledge to a specified client group. The instruments of the transfer are not assigned any intrinsic value. Social capital – the capacity of people to voluntarily associate with each other for mutual benefit or service to others – has no intrinsic worth or place in this policy instrumentalism.”

its beuro-rock-rat speak

''Australia’s voluntary,charitable..and community organisations
have been assaulted..on three fronts.''

ie..
'"governments have colonised..a large proportion of these bodies by turning them..into service delivery instruments..for the state,"'

the main complaint
seems to be..funding..[ie having to beg]

but lets break it down

""“Nor does it matter to policy makers,
who have inherited*.. a highly instrumentalist approach
to social policy.""

this must be read
in context with the line before it

""it is always about the volume of spending
and more money always means more and better services..(or so they say).""

""This merry dance between politicians
and service providers works for both sides""

but not as we know
for those being 'served'
by

""Voluntary,charitable,self-help
and mutual forms of association{S}""

*['are' deleted]

""..*..now typically deemed by policy makers
to be simply instruments for the achievement of policy objectives.""

""These objectives are usually prescribed""
written in stone]..""in terms of
the transfer of units of service
or care
or knowledge
..to a specified client group.""

""The instruments of the transfer""
ie service/care/or knowledge
""are not assigned any intrinsic value.""

as such..mealy labled..

""Social capital""

[thats an accounting term
recall how smoking has SOCIEL COSTS of 31 billion
ie EVERYTHING TO DO WITH SMOKING–

[its an accounting term..much used by govt to hide its real adgenda..its cost or its value

""the capacity of people
to voluntarily associate with each other
for mutual benefit..or service to others ..has no intrinsic worth*

or place
in this...policy instrumentalism.”

ok back to previous quote for context

""That makes it too difficult to play the credit/blame game.""

""Most large not-for-profits now have communications and public relations departments whose focus is to cultivate political support on both sides of politics""

"" so that future ministers will always understand that the issue is never the method or quality or structure of service delivery""

""it is always about the volume of spending
and more money always means more and better services..(or so they say)...

This merry dance
between politicians
and service providers""..[often former public servants/lawyers/accountants/docters]..""works for both sides""

*but[and]..
not for the one being serviced..
[read screwed/shafted..getting the short straw]

Thank you very much OUG, I kept reading that one short paragraph and really not getting it.

I was trying to find an article called “Supping with the Devil” which I think (in the bit of it I found) was saying it is bad for Charities to associate with government and calling them third part providers rather than 1st (govt) and 2nd party which was private industry or corporation. I did find the article but they’re still charging for it.

Then I found a piece about finances and bidding for government contracts. It’s a bit like youtube where you watch one thing then you get lead in all sorts of directions and forget what the first thing was.

Somewhere I read a piece saying they should move away from govt and back to the good will of communities and private industry supporting them. But there’s no easy money there.

With limited understanding I decided any charity that may have started with good intention then began lobbying government in no way could have kept its original identity. The public generally don’t know that because their memory of what these now not-for-profits are still lingers with the well known names.

Must be Friday, I make even less sense on a Friday. :)

you areright in most things
the youtube thing is a truth
one thing leads to an other thing

like ''supping with the evil''
being only available for $$..should speak volumes

we need to figure out a better way
[one big change is not just jailing the caregiver..and putting the kid into the system]..thing is if a problem appears[worthy of sepperating child from parent]..in my opinion the whole family is 'sick'

the whole family should go to 'jail'
to retrain the family as a whole

i think once we prove neglectfull to our kids
we prove thereby we have a problem

the thing is to fix the problem..
not simply punnish 'an offender'
[often punnishing the child more]

just as peoople loose powers and get sent to jail
other powers[privledges ]..might be better suspended
like if a single mother has gotten into trouble..she should by law surrender her own freedom..not the childs

by surrender i mean her losing the privledge of a 'private residence'..and moving in with others in simular circumstances..to collectivly retrain all..not simply one 'instrument' fixes everything

'jail'.. the whole family
that failed together..and are best 'fixed'..by fixing them ..'together'

ie the absent/father is as much guilty of what 'happend'
as those who did the 'crime'..make all of them do the time

not as in jail time
but corrections..
[funny prisons used to be called house of corrections
..till they found correction.. wasnt being done

it [wasnt 'working']

teach the whole family
treat the whole family as one whole..needing to be fixed

remove them [as a unit]..from where they are
that isnt really helping them ..where they are
put them 'under supervision..as a unit/family unit?

UOG:”we need to figure out a better way
[one big change is not just jailing the caregiver..and putting the kid into the system]..thing is if a problem appears[worthy of sepperating child from parent]..in my opinion the whole family is 'sick'”

Absolutely we need to find a better way and you hear parents demanding to be charged with a crime and have their day in court. The punishment (child removal) is carried out without proof of crime. When removing a new born there obviously has never been a crime but want a huge and damaging punishment for the baby.

The Libs have said they will focus more on early intervention. Others say too much of this is done already. I’d suggest it’s probably been and being done by the wrong people.

Many children seem to suffer in kinship care when the families as a “whole” are not thoroughly investigated. The abuse usually started somewhere and an Aunty is just as affected as the parent was. It makes sense to start fixing this with current generations before the cycle repeats. But then we’ve talked about these cycles for a long time.

Placing the whole family in foster care facilities makes more sense to me. Now I just need to win lotto.