Mr Rudd did no favours for his own part on Q&A. He revealled the total hypocrisy of the Labour front bench. Some wanted the ETS scrapped. The 'consenus' is crumbling. Gillard herself cares only about clinging to power. I doubt whether she will survive. You reap what you sow.

Dear runner,

What an interesting "Q and A," it was last night! Former PM Kevin Rudd
was amusing, charming, and surprisingly honest. Kudos to him for admitting that he was wrong in scraping the ETS (a rare thing to do for a pollie - as Robert Manne pointed out). And what a contrast Rudd was to the faithful "Lady-In-Waiting," Shadow Deputy, Julie Bishop - who couldn't tell us what she thought on any matter but simply insisted on toeing her Party Line of condemnation. Even Tony Jones pulled her up on it several times. Anyway, we should have more shows like the one we saw last night. TV at its best!

I thought Rudd looked statesmanlike Lexi, in the snippets I saw. And very entertaining.
Despite Julie Bishop's crude interjections.

I do wonder how much pressure Julia Gillard will be feeling right now, though.

Just where is Kevin going with this ?. Could the next election end up being between Rudd and Turnbull after all.
Malcolm's been doing his share of public pot stirring as well.

At least we can see some colour at last.

I find it interesting that when Mr Rudd gave his fare well speech it was reported that he was frank and honest and that if he had showed this quality during his time as PM chances were he would not be leaving the top job.

And now when there is blood in the water Mr frank and honest pops up again.

Dear Thinker 2,

The next election should be an interesting one. I also feel that there will be a major change in players prior to it. We have to wait and see but it won't be dull that's for sure.

Dear Pigsta,

Julia Gillard remains a work in progress. On the one hand, she was the second-most important figure in the government that in her words,
"lost its way." On the other, she was at the very least, complicit in the decision to retreat on climate change that triggered Rudd's demise and the departure of many Labor voters. And she led an election campaign that was risk-averse to the point that it failed to win a majority of seats. Yet she understood the message of that election almost immediately promising a more inclusive style of politics. However part of the problem lies with the factions. They still exist. The Labor Party does need modernisation and change.

Who knows who the task of driving the change will fall to. I certainly don't know. But now is the right time for the Labor Party to get their act together. The key ingredients are the ones that have been in short supply in both political parties and those are -
confidence, conviction and courage. As I stated earlier - the next election will be interesting.

I didn't see Rudd last night, but I'm assuming that he was back to his old relaxed self that won him a lot of friends prior to the 2007 election. That sort of relaxed and frank persona is, no doubt, difficult to maintain when in office...but if he could find a way to do it, then I think his popularity would be assured.

I've gone right off politics with this latest bunch...totally turned off by Julia and Tony.

There, of course, is only one thing for it for the next election.... chuck 'em out and start afresh. I reckon Rudd verses Turnbull would give Aussie politics a whole new impetus....can't wait to see what happens.

(Sorry Shadow Minister - you're barking up the wrong tree if you think Abbott and Bishop would go anywhere near making the grade.)

Interesting responses. I happen to agree that Ms Bishop was ordinary although in keeping with ABC practice as a conservative she got very little air time compared with Mr Rudd and Mr Manne. I think she is a liability. I disagree that she is a lady in waiting as suggested by Lexi. Like the PM she is miles out of her depth already and I think she knows it. Along with the PM she has been promoted above her competency level. And just in case you think I am picking on woman I actually think that their are a couple of females in the Labour party competent enough to be PM despite myself disagreeing with their policies. One could not help but admire Mr Rudd and for the first time he came across well in my eyes. It was very amusing to learn some on the current bench wanted the ets scrapped completely. It must be as hard for these guys to pretend they believe in the ETS as it is for Turnbull to see his mate Abbott know it is c_ap. One wonders how much longer Labour can last with a unified front and yet a loathing of each other inwardly. Mr Rudd has every reason to feel salt being rubbed in his knife marks after agreeing with Ms Gillard's advice to delay the ets

Poirot:>> I reckon Rudd verses Turnbull would give Aussie politics a whole new impetus....can't wait to see what happens.<<

That Rudd is using personality politics to re ingratiate himself with imbeciles such as the ones that have commented positively about the Q&A performance does not surprise me, nor does their pathetic attempt of the rebuilding of the former PM back to acceptance.

The Labor party is incompetent, they run a line of under graduate ideological social and fiscal policies that fail to achieve a favorable outcome for the majority, but they certainly appease the minorities that allow them to exist. They are duds, they are self serving, and some Aussie imbeciles may deserve this government but the majority of Aussies did not vote for them. If it was first past the post Abbott good or bad should have been our PM. This is a case where no matter how foul the alternative it beats the scheiser out of the Labor status quo.

A real impetus indeed Poirot, I know you said you had a gutful of Julia but that you could consider the Labor party has anything to offer except disappointment surprises me, I thought you were a realist and not a token accepting dupe.

Oh, wow, sonofgloin...thou woundest me with the truth!

You are right, of course. I was merely getting carried away with the competitive aspect of of the game.

Both parties toe the same line - there aint any difference.
They perpetuate the current unsustainable myth - they are beholden to corporate interests - they are reactionary and media driven.

Thanks for the wake-up call : )

Dear SOG,

Talking about "ingratiation..." I saw the interview with Tony Windsor where he described how Tony Abbott begged to be made PM. Abbott said he'd do "anything," for the job. And that was part of the reason that Windsor said he decided to go with Labor. He felt that Tony Abbott's reasons for wanting the job were questionable. It seems that Tony Abbott led the parade in trying to "ingratiate" himself.

As for Mr Rudd - he runs rings around anyone the Opposition has on offer - with the possible exception of Malcolm Turnbull (who lost by only one vote initially). As for labelling people who disagree with you. Well that's a common trait when it comes to discussions on this forum - especially with highly emotive issues like politics. Venting one's spleen is healthy - so don't hold back and tell us what you really think. Onya SOG!

Dear runner,

Loved your last post!

Lexi:>> As for labelling people who disagree with you. Well that's a common trait when it comes to discussions on this forum - <<

Lexi my dear interlocutor, I have disagreed vehemently with Yabby, and never suggested him an imbecile; I have disagreed vehemently with Belly and never suggested him an imbecile. Imbeciles have an IQ of no more than fifty, but I know many imbeciles with a 130 quotient.

How do you address one who continually puts their hand in a fire believing the outcome may be different this time, an imbecile. My problem is given the subject matter every ones hand goes into the fire with the imbeciles. We need first past the post and non compulsory voting

Dear SOG,

Thank You for explaining things - and you made my day by calling me your "dear." Perhaps it would help if we made voting non-compulsory as you suggest (as they do in the US) Although they don't always get it right either do they? Not sure what the answer is. I have to think about things - and it's late in the day and I'm tired.

Well I am going to be the fly in the ointment.

Of course there was fractionalism within Rudd's front bench, there is in every frontbench. No two human beings think exactly the same on all issues even those within the same party. It is not news that some wanted to scrap the ETS or that some wanted to forge ahead negotiating with a difficult Senate. It is not news that the party reacted to polling.

Part of the problem was Mr Rudd's non-consultative dictatorial style, failure of respect in relation to backbenchers and failure to give the Greens the time of day - hence the difficulties with passing the ETS Bill in the Senate. How do we know he was not just as willing to scrap the ETS in response to polls. Rudd and his media advisors were completely poll-driven.

Why the special kudos for Mr Rudd. There is nothing courageous in being 'honest' about something the public has been told about numerous times; and there is nothing courageous about admitting a 'mistake' after it is has been made clear by those who voted for Kevin 07 that the decision was unpopular. It would be more courageous to admit it was the right decision in those circumstances.

All I saw was martyrdom and a smirking individual sneaking around trying to put the boot in while playing coy about revealing names, while trying to project an image of saintliness. Many people know this to be a con job.

How soon the public forget.

Will be interesting Pelican to know if you feel the same way when/if Ms Julia has the dagger returned on her. You certanly seem to loathe Mr Rudd. What was done to him certainly had no ethics despite many peoples dislike for him. Julia had only days earlier denied wanting the top job. Seems like you are blinded to her many backflips when it comes to truth.She makes deal with the Greens and then claims they are extremist who are bad for families. At least Mr Rudd did not scoop so low.

Mr.Rudd was a sly, sniggering, slithering snake on Q&A last night, and he made me cringe!

I am not a fan of Julia Gillard as such, but if I was PM, I would be calling Rudd into the office and stripping him of his portfolio and sending him to the backbench.

If the Labour Party want to come anywhere near winning the next election, they need to drop Rudd, or he will be undermining all the other Labour Ministers at any opportunity because many of them voted him out of the big job, and he spat the dummy.

If the Holy Abbott is booted out of the Liberal Party top job, as he should be, and Turnbull is elevated to his rightful position, then it won't really matter what the Labour Party does, because they will lose the next election.

Suzi

You should know the Labour party can't drop Mr Rudd. He would spit the dummy possibly causing a by election where the global warming faith would be annilated. Ms Gillard is at least smart and sleazy enough to know that.

Remember that Turnbull apparently had his own Party right behind him and was prepared to pass that original ETS when (after similar back-room plotting) he was beaten by Abbott (by a single vote) and then all those same Party members were rabidly against it.

That's not hypocrisy, that's what's called Politics and they all do it the same way.

To be fair to Gillard I still have the impression that she was reluctantly conscripted by others to challenge for Rudd's job. If she was really that ambitious she would have had it soon enough without the intrigue.

I must admit I had to admire Rudd.

The way he quietly stuck a knife in Juliar and her cabinet in such a way that she cannot respond without looking worse. He gently painted the labor cabinet as a bunch of back stabbing hypocrites that forced him to ditch the ETS, subsequently executed him as the scapegoat, and then revived the carbon tax when they thought politically expedient, while pretending they wanted it all along.

He also only gave enough information so that any comment by Juliar could only make things worse for her, and any move against him would appear as direct confirmation.

I saw Julie Bishop's face. It looked as though Xmas had come.

SM, the rather crazy look that visits Julie Bishop's face at times like that the other night, are a gateway into her 'intellect'.

She is a really shallow person as far as I can see from her political record so far, and highly unsuited to being a deputy anything.

That said, Gillard is just a political machine, without any underpinning ideals beyond her constantly recalled Sunday School with Baptists influences.

I read a hagiography of her some weeks back, and she seems to have ignored living a life beyond the very narrow confines of the ALP.

She too is unsuited to such a position as PM, with nothing to inform her life beyond mean, nasty and all too frequently dishonest machinations of factional dealing.

Her membership of the 'socialist left' was clearly not connected to any ideaology. She fits naturally into the DLP side of the ALP, with the Shoppos, with Australia's Worst Union, with the Opus Dei Conroy, with the toerags from the Can't F76k Much Else Up from the timber workers side of the CFMEU (the ones who all vote for Howard).

It's not so much that she is a 'liar', as your placards were booming the other day, more that she has never quite understood the need for truthfulness in her screaming ride through the ALP, where such niceties are foreign to the players.

Her latest grovelling to Jim Wallace- the ACL- and the constantly sex offending Vicar of Rome's mob, shows how shallow and, frankly, stupid, she really is and with what utter contempt she holds the idea of a 'secular' nation in.

I regard Rudd with as much contempt as her, but he has lived a slightly more varied life, and can draw on a range of emotions and understandings beyond a Baptist Sunday school and working with a bunch of no-hopers within the factions of the ALP.

While Turnbull no doubt has his backers even they know the ets stinks with the electorate. When he was opposition leader Rudd was always miles ahead in the poles. Now Abbott is a long way in front with Julia doing them a favour by lying about the ets. Some liberals might be dumb enough to want someone who would lose the election but most are not that stupid. Turnbull will only get another chance if the unlikely event of Liberals lose thge next election. Turnbull should start his own party with Oakshott, Rudd and other regressives. They could call each it the smirkers.

Most people miss the point that the disagreements in Cabinet about the ETS revolved entirely around its effects on the incumbency of the ALP in Canberra. The Labor squabbles and backstabbing had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not introducing an ETS is the right and responsible response to AGW.

Much the same as the Opposition, actually. Speaking of whom, Julie Bishop looked positively deranged on Q&A the other night.

runner,
You appear to believe that there is never any controversy in the Coalition ranks. Remember that Malcolm Turnbull favoured a carbon trading scheme and was within one vote of retaining his liberal leadership position. That doesn't sound like a united Liberal Party.

I suspect that the Country/National Party would only favour a trading scheme that gave another handout to the farming lobby. hence Tony Abbott's adoption of a soil carbon policy.

runner
You are certainly the master at misconstruction. I did not mention Julia Gillard once in my post nor anything about the leadership challenge. This is not the subject of your thread.

There is sometimes a big difference, as revealed by your responses to various people, between what people write and what you think they have written.

runner,

We all know that no "smirkers" party would be complete without Peter Costello at the helm - he was a smirker extraordinaire.

And let's face it, good old Tony only looks acceptable against Julia, who unfortunately comes across as a politically savvy extra from the cast of Kath and Kim.

Julie Bishop, on the other hand, is about as animated and inspiring as a list of party platitudes - I wish she'd cultivate a decent smirk. It might liven her up a bit.

I got about half way through the posts and I decided to jump ahead and post this: put it down to a short attention span.

In relation to if Mr Rudd admitting or defending past decisions:

I am reminded of a press conference that I watched some time ago. Mr Bush Jnr was on his way out, still in office with only a couple of weeks to go. In this conference he took questions and from the floor and they asked him about various decisions that were viewed by the press as mistakes.

Now I’m not a fan of this individual however I have to admit that he stood by his decisions and explained why he made them. I didn’t agree with his decisions however by his explanations I could understand his reasoning.

Disclaimer: I am not going to defend any of former president George Bush’s decisions.

Thought of the day: Make it idiot proof and some one will make a better idiot

Hey, you are all forgetting something….

What about K Rudd’s extraordinary boost to immigration as soon as he got into power. He didn’t mention anything about this in the election campaign, he knew that there is a ot of concern about high immigration, he didn’t consult anyone or put the idea out there for discussion, he just went ahead and did it. And this was a big boost to an already record high immigration rate under Howard.

Quite frankly, that was a premeditated act of dishonesty.

The LAST thing we need in this country, with our problems with fossil fuel dependency, climate change, widespread critical water shortages (at least before the big rains), congestion and transport woes, blah blah.. is very high immigration / population growth.

And don’t forget it was Krudd who ruptured Howard’s solid border-protection policy. And he blew the national surplus away.

He should be far beyond any consideration for a second stint at the PMship.

<< Both parties toe the same line - there aint any difference. They perpetuate the current unsustainable myth - they are beholden to corporate interests - they are reactionary and media driven. >>

Spot on, Poirot. So until we can see some sign that KRudd would move away from chronic antisustainability and towards a stable sustainable and sane policy direction, then we should not even be considering him. His move slightly away from ‘a big Australia’ is something positive, but it is nowhere near good enough.

So he came across well on Q&A. So what? Gee whiz, anyone with a bit of nous… and anyone who can become a top pollie has some degree of nous….could perform well in that setting. Oh alright…except maybe JBishop!

Even JGillard did really well recently!

I certainly don’t want some old kruddy dud of a PM back in the top job, thankyou very much!

Kev may very well unseat this parliament as he has no interest in iot and his next BIG career move is the UN. He ALSO knows there is no chance for Labor next election but he wants to be party leader again. So he will sink Julia split the party then cobble it back together, they are used to being in opposition, it's a natural state.

Rudd does not have to tell me.
It is clear at best, some of the blame belongs with Gillard,the now gone ex NSW ALP hanger on, and sundary people on the front bench.
In truth, I truely think, my belovered party MUST adress the past openly, or we have no future, dreams will not return us to power.
For those monitoring my return, no difficulty in getting here now ,but it may be time related.
Returning to work on system after leaving site

Kevin Rudd has me thinking, the story's around his appearance on QandA too.
I think he was out standing.
We all know of at least one mum or dad that can never see the child is in need of discipline.
Not my kid!
And if we consider it, look truly, the Child suffers more from too much love,too little learning of boundary's and discipline.
I very much know my party got it very wrong at that time.
Once if calling an election of both houses would have romped in.
Then put in place policy's blocked by a dysfunctional senate.
No progress is ever possible with one end up in the air and head buried in the sand.
Well done Kev.

<< I think he was out standing. >>

Oh Belly!

My poor head! ( :> O

Belly, are you back at work with 'the nunion'?

Off that disability pension before Gillard throws you to the wolves eh?

(A joke only Belly- I know you are not on a disability pension, but if you were, then you soon won't be, what with Julia's 'conservative social values' that understand only noblesse oblige and charity-for-the-deserving-poor, rather than compassion and a fair go).

Let us not forget, that although the batshitcrazy Bishop only wanted to direct attention towards Gillard as Rudd unloaded his chamber pot onto his chums, no one has thought to look beyond her.

What about Swan and Tanner, eh?

Although Gillard is now controlled by Jim Wallace, as was Rudd, and is adopting every policy line the ACL put out, about a week later Gillard shifts towards them, Swan has always been an AWU stooge, and on the far right of the ALP.

Tanner once pretended to be socialist left, as did Gillard, but he too was part of the DLP dominated-owned FCU, the evil Santamaria Clerks Union, so also has a strong background in rightwing politics.

He only 'went left' to gain control of the FCU (now the ASU clerical/admin div). As soon as he got to power, he ditched all pretence at being SL and joined the 'thought processes' of the neo-libs, along with Hawke, Keating and all the rest of 'em.

So, look beyond Gillard for the 'just ditch it' demand to Rudd.

The other two are just as strongly tainted as Gillard is.

Fortunately, Tanner did 'the right thing' and took off, but Swan controls the purse-strings and remains a real liability to the nation.

But.... who wants Abbott, Bishop and Hockey?

Hobson's choice, eh? Buckley's and Nunn.

Dear Belly
"Outstanding" - I can't agree with you on that one. Surely you know from your association with the ALP the reputation of Mr Rudd. I am not excusing Gillard, it was her choice to make a run for the leadership at the urging of the 'faceless men' but really - Rudd "outstanding". I am going to have to have a cup of tea and a good lie down.
:)

Pelican,

I'd whisper if I was you...we don't want Julia to hear of such wanton slacking : )

I'm rather a fan of a cup of tea and a good lie down, myself (in fact, I think it should be compulsory after lunch - just like in the nursery days).

I suspect, however, that Julia would decry such luxuries as not upholding an appropriate work ethic....it's probably only a matter of time before it's banned.

Poirot, if Cardinal Pell, Jim Wallace or the Baptists, believe that having a 'nice cuppa' is a sin, then it will become one within a week, by Gillard-fiat, and all such activities will have to cease.

Unless 'having a cuppa' is deemed to be a 'socially conservative value', in which case Pell, Jim and said Baptists will then advise Juliar to increase tea breaks to bring spiritual renewal to the toiling masses.

We know, of course, that poofs, dykes and oddbods would never 'take tea' so there is a good chance that Juliar will opt to increase smoko times rather than cut them altogether.

But, I do hear that Punterbet is taking odds on this one right now.

BTW, does anyone know if Juliar attended Parliamentary prayers when she was 'just' an atheist, prior to her trip to Damascus-with-Jimnpell, and whether she has changed her tune and now attends them?

Or has she always been a fraud, and attended them since her 'socially-conservative-values-from-Baptist-Sunday-school' told her to fall-in with the other goons and keep her head down?

Heh heh Poirot.

Mais oui, a good lie down is not conducive to zee growth economy. Vee must all be ze little economic units, vork vork vork, none of zis lying down biznis wis the cupz of the tea, vee are vorking famlilis No!

Well! only kidding TBC?and I fit the IQ of 50% in SOG post above.
And some say we do not sling rubbish about here.
First the blue cross, you follow the greens, so my expectations are not high.
Not back at work, well past retirement age, it would be old age pension if you got it right.
Could still be working, very much so.
If I betrayed every thing I ever lived for.
Sold my belief, for cash, more cash than I got in my last job.
Up for it, well and fit, but leaving one job because of a fool would look silly working with about a hundred of them.
Thugs and mugs made an open offer, no way.
Rudd did well, my detractors within the movement must come to understand, Labor can not win with Gillard.
Only if Abbott leads can Labor be returned.
Greens are gone, if Abbott and Gillard have this country at heart a month before the next election is called both should craft a garden weeding double dissolution election.

Perhaps afternoon naps would be ok if we used them for spiritual contemplation..

The great thing about being a socialist is that you don't have to worship the work ethic. Being lazy is a form of radical dissent!

According to Eagleton, "advanced capitalism is inherently agnostic. This makes it look particularly flaccid and out of shape when its paucity of belief runs up against an excess of the stuff--not only an external excess, but an internal one too, in the form of the various home-grown fundamentalisms. Modern market societies tend to be secular, relativist, pragmatic and materialistic". This puts the pollies between the rock and the hard place; many people are uncomfortable in a moral vacuum so governments have to at least affect their ethical credentials (all they really believe in is the lotto--the markets, electorates etc.)If they can do so by feigning the most popular hokum they figure the larffing.

Sqeers at least we can laugh, I did on reading your post.
Opinions are as common as leafs in Autumn, every one has them and each conflicts with another.
I have no idea if mine are right, only that they are based on researching and observing daily news and current affairs as hungry for understanding as a starving man is for food.
I am no angel, never could be, but observe the bitter things some say about us here, in this thread.
And look at the thread trying to help me with problems getting logged on.
Am I too easily upset? is it truly OK to call people idiots?
So very easy for some to slander others but so very much more so to just simply look into a mirror and truly see them selves.
Australian, those like me, who put so much trust in Rudd, have every right to know just why the last government lost its way.

The hatred for Mr Abbott seems to some Labour supporters a reason to justify and ignore there own parties complete incompetence. Even the far lefty Robert Manne admitted the hopeless management of the illegal arrivals. That must have hurt but at least he showed some integrity as Mr Rudd did admitting his mistakes. I think what many lefites hate so much about Abbott is that he has been right on most things exposing their completely flawed dogmas trying to be imposed on the country by an incompetent Government. Certainly Labour has taken Australia from a sound economic position to one in debt and nothing but deaths to show for it. When will they wake up to themselves? They now need the ETS money to pay for their gross mis management.

Belly:>> Well! only kidding TBC?and I fit the IQ of 50% in SOG post above<<

Belly when I wrote that "imbecile" line you were not even on my radar, I consider you intelligent and committed, as I have said in the past my Labor pedigree should have me defending the indefensible too, but I cannot.

Dear runner,

As Allan Stewart wrote in The Age newspaper:

"A wealth of negativity: no tax on big miners, no tax on big polluters, now bash the unemployed and disabled. We can see the real Tony."

I suppose we got through the global recession, an excellent economy,
unemployment low, inflation OK - all due to John Howard, I guess!

I know what you mean, Belly.
I feel my opinions with deep conviction too. I s'pose all one can do as be as honest and critical with oneself and opinions as possible, and after that if you still feel strongly, take a stand.

I can't help feeling the Labor Party is bankrupt; they stand for nothing, and Rudd got what he deserved I'm afraid. I can forgive them though for losing their way, their naivity. Anyway, their a populist party and have to give the people what they want. It's the Australian people that are to blame.

The conservatives meanwhile stand for something deeply abhorrent to me and nothing could ever induce me to vote for them.

Lexi you write'of Mr Abbott

'A wealth of negativity: no tax on big miners, no tax on big polluters, now bash the unemployed and disabled.'

Well we still have no mining tax yet, you benefit greatly by coal and Ms Gillard has been banging on about penalising the unemployed herself if you did not notice. Most are now worse off than when we were 'saved'from the GFC which really shows it was not that bad here thanks to having a few bucks in the bank and that the 'big polluters' were able to keep people in work. And yes if we had another GFC their is no money left from the Howard Government to spend. We would just have to borrow on borrow which Labour seems addicted to. On top of this we are a complete laughing stock when it comes to dealing with the boat trade.

Runner,
firstly if you bothered to listen to the facts the so-called "ETS Money" is not going to the government and next - that "hatred" for Mr Abbott doesn't seem to be as profound as the "hatred" for Gillard.

Abbott already has enough of the newspapers and shock-jocks whipping up hysteria and lies on his behalf without adding to it.

Runner can we talk?
You are aware I find your views hard to except.
And I am aware you find the same in mine.
But did you see this mornings papers?
Still and forever an early riser I have read 4 city and two local ones.
At least one talks of a new discovery in our brains.
Seems we are different you and me.
Think we all knew it but evidence has been found that[please do not be insulted] says Liberals, thats me, not your party.
Are more inquiring.
And conservatives have a bigger part of the brain that concerns fear.
Still unable to post links,will fix that soon.
But Your comment about hating Tony Abbott is mate,,,, pure trash!
I fear and dislike his policy's,his ability to change what he thinks ,his possible impacts as leader.
MOST of all I FEAR he will be replaced!
Because your party will walk in an election if it takes place after he is gone, UNLESS Gillard is gone too.
Runner I have no more regard for Gillard or less than I have for Abbott!

wobbles">> Abbott already has enough of the newspapers and shock-jocks whipping up hysteria and lies on his behalf without adding to it.<<

NO CARBON TAX LIES

TIMOR SOLUTION LIES

CHILDCARE CENTRE LIES

BER LIES

PINK BATTS LIES

ABORIGINAL HOUSING LIES

MINERAL RESOURCE TAX LIES

GP SUPER CLINICS LIES

CASH FOR CLUNKERS LIES

GILLARD BEING FULL FORWARD FOR THE DOGS LIES

GILLARDS POWER SHARING POWER WITH THE GREENS LIE

AGED CARE BEDS LIES

GROCERY WATCH LIES

FUEL WATCH LIES

COMPUTERS FOR ALL SECONDARY STUDENTS LIES

TRADE TRAINING CENTER LIES

MONEY FOR RURAL RESEARCH AND DEVELOPEMENT LIES

ESTABLISH AN OFFICE FOR CHILDREN AND YOUTH LIES

REDUCE SPENDING ON CONSULTANTS AND ADVERTISING LIES

COMMONWEALTH CONTROL OF HOSPITALS LIES

REGIONAL PARTNERSHIP PROGRAM LIES

LEGALLY STOP JAPANESE WHALING LIES

4 YEAR TERMS FOR MHR AND SENATE LIES

MENINDEE LAKES SCHEME LIES

500 EXTRA FEDERAL POLICE LIES

ESTABLISH DEDICATED COASTWATCH LIES

RETAIN HEALTH INSURANCE REBATE LIES

RELIEVE THE TAX BURDON LIES

WATER TANKS FOR ALL SURF CLUBS LIES

GREEN LOANS SCHEME LIES

NEW FREE TO AIR TV NETWORK LIES

NO INCREASE IN HEALTH BUREAUCRATS LIES

CAPS ON POLITICAL DONATIONS AND SPENDING LIES

IMPLIMENT INDEPENDANT ELECTORAL COMMISSION LIES

ROOT AND BRANCH TAX REVIEW LIES

ESTABLISH HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICE LIES

EXPORT MARKET DEVELOPEMENT SCHEME LIES

BUILD NO MORE ONSHORE DETENTION CENTRES LIES

EQUAL PAY FOR WOMEN LIES

LIFT PRESSURE FROM WORKING FAMILIES LIES

Wobbles, your words are meaningless, who winds you up, you automaton imbecile.

Yes Belly, they left a few screws out of some brains.

That's why people like Wobbles can believe that the ETS money, if Julia gets it through, won't be going to government. That must be like believing the promise of no ETS in a government she leads.

Wobbles, I now start to see it all. I see that anyone stupid enough to believe that one, could actually be stupid enough to vote for our current Labor lot, on principal

Mate, if you ever find a principal in the lot of them be sure to let me know, "I'd like to see that".

Finding a principle in that lot would be about as hard as it has proved to be of finding any proof that global warming exists in the first place. I guess that's why the same people who can vote Labor can believe in the great con

Belly I don't think that we are as different as what you would like to think. I am not in love with the liberals as you are with Labour. Put Turnbull in charge of the Liberals and they lose my vote. Does Labour keep your vote if Gillard hangs on by a thread? I would consider voting Labour if they cut with the feral Greens and had someone like Stephen Smith as leader. I am actually feeling sorry and embarassed as an Aussie with the current crop in power. They are extremely incompetent on every issue they touch.

I've always thought that a political life is a continuing education in human nature, including one's own. However, Peter Coleman writing in the preface to "The Costello Memoirs," said:

"...Whatever they may say, most of them do not go into Parliament to bring about particular reforms, they go in because they find the life irresistible. They want to be in it all their lives. They enjoy its exhilarating highs and take in miserable (and tedious) lows in their stride. They face long years in the wilderness with equanimity. They take for granted the slander of fools. They also believe that the voters will get it right in the end. Their day will come. They are politicians in the way others are poets. They can't help themselves."

The best we can hope for is that we've made the right choice. That we choose people who are not like that. People to whom all that stuff is the excuse of the seat-warmer, the hack, the careerist, or at best the adventurer. That we choose people who belong to a different parliamentary tradition. People who go into Parliament to make changes to the Australian settlement for the good of all Australians.
We can all hope that the voters will get it right in the end.

Lexi,
I have absolute faith that Australian voters will continue to get it wrong.

Dear Squeers,

Thanks for making me laugh. I needed to today. However, fingers-crossed they won't in the next election. Hopefully things would have changed a great deal by then to give voters a much better choice.

Lexi,

These two parties seem to represent varying degrees of the same thing.

What do you envisage changing - except maybe the leaders?

Both sides of politics talk the talk when in Opposition but when in power the walk is definitely a limp.

I was disappointed with JG's decision to exclude the NBN company from FOI scrutiny. Big mistake. Private companies are often asked permission to release correspondence under FOI if it comes under the purvey of the request. Often it is done as a courtesy because the reality is the information is not protected.

This is a misrepresentation.

In any case, in principle, if a company or charity is working on behalf of government using taxpayer money surely they are accountable in the same way. Otherwise why have government audits of these outsourced programs.

Ludicrous.

Gday hasbeen how is it going? take a breath mate.
Gillard the untrust worthy DID NOT SAY THE WORDS YOU CREDIT HER WITH~EVER.
The silly woman did say no carbon tax in my government.
She did, already undermining Rudd at the time, talk him in to dumping the ETS. but NEVER EVER said no ETS in my government, truth has value bloke.
Runner silly question, I voted conservative in NSW, for the only time in my life,, so far.
And a choice between Abbott and Gillard is painful she wins by default.
Wobbles, I backy you, keep on saying it like you think.
Sonofglion, review your list, it is full of presumptions and quite untrue mostly.
AND bloke I know you can do better rather you dumped the wasteful insults,after all, we all get it wrong you and me too.

Dear Poirot,

I am definitely hoping for a change of leadership for both parties.

Dear Pelly,

Some parties are only capable of talking the talk but aren't capable of coming up with any policies. Yet when in power their walk is not limp. Anything but. Many Victorians still shudder at the Kennett government's autocracy, cronyism and laissez-faire ideology as well as the eradication of an effective auditor-general. So much for government accountability. Ludicrous indeed!

You've nailed that one on Kennett Lexi. If your referring to ideological nutters' going off tap with their chest puffed out on the public purse.

Such is the toll and tolls in Victoria, instead of previously owning our own road system, we now rent it from the people we sold it too, for a couple of bridges and tunnels. The get out clauses were too comprehensive for any latter Gov't to consider rescinding.

It's now hard on reflection, too thank one's lucky stars or even Mr Rudd, that Tony Abbott is not our PM. Do both parties need to rethink their leadership ?, if wishing to retain or attain power respectively ?. Only time will tell I think Lexi, at the moment.

Leadership is only one aspect and the natural tendency for parties to change leadership due to polling only makes a mockery of the lack of substance in policy. While I personally did not like Mr Rudd, if there was evidence of substance and competency in delivery, even a despised leader would be tolerable.

The trouble with the Rudd leadership was the tendency to rape and pillage the delivery or operational end of government on the basis of budget cuts while continuing to pad out the senior management end including un-deserved performance bonuses even if the outcomes were disastrous. It is little wonder the insulation and BER schemes came unstuck.

Can't blame all that on Rudd even if he was asleep at the wheel and obsessed with neo-liberalism. Responsibility also rests with those senior bureacrats responsible for managing their departments. Many are too weak to say no to their ministers/PM even if things are being run into the ground.

There are so many so-called oversight groups within government including duplication leaving many with little to do while the powerhouses of departments chug away with minimal fuel struggling to do more with less.

Well Hasbeen,
As a matter of fact I do vote on principle.

I'm no lover of the new Labor Party but I do clearly remember the Liberals from way back in the late sixties as being dishonest opportunists who believe they were destined to rule us all. They are far worse now - power for the sake of it at any cost, with their bottomless grab-bag of dirty tricks, socially divisive wedge politics and dog-whistle racism. There's nothing they won't do or say to get their loathsome spotty behinds back into those white leather-seated ComCars.

The principle I adhere to is that I will never vote for those immoral unprincipled political thugs no matter who leads them.

We deserve better from both sides but we're stuck with what we have - the dregs of Shop Stewards, political staffers and failed suburban solicitors and lawyers.

Sonofgloin,
I could list some of "Honest John" Howard's less-than sincere outcomes but there is a word limit.

I think what Rudd's confessions made abundantly clear is that only reason Juliar is pursuing the carbon tax is that it was a negotiated condition of the alliance with the greens, and that she never would have done so otherwise.

Little Tony Abbott the Rabbit! uncharitable? yes, unneeded? yes, but if we must drop in to a slanging match so be it.
Pelican and others have contributed interesting things here.
I only differ slightly.
Labor in my view dumped Kevin Rudd not because of polling.
It was the back flips the silly policy's no ETS no double dissolution the list is long.
In retrospect Gillard and others failed me,still fail me and Labor voters.
A change in leadership, in both party's, is coming.
What Kevin Mr 74% promised some one else MUST DELIVER.
And tea party Tony is making promises he can not keep.
It is, it has to be, commitment to change, to policy's,to being better that both party's should commit to not popularity contest.
And the sooner all party's stop responding to foolish questions from media ,all media , that are uninformed efforts to create controversy,and often asked by people with no understanding.
And an IQ that could be beaten by the family dog.

SM,

I think it's more than that. It's about leadership and personal achievment. Most leaders want to go down in history for their record of achievement rather than their notoriety. I'm sure the current PM wants to be remembered as a PM who accomplished something great for the benefit of the nation and she's in a current position to do just that.

Dear Thinker 2,

Fingers-crossed that at the next election we have a real choice between the two parties in their leadership. It would be far more interesting if the choices were between the "Best and the Brightest,"
from each party instead of factional reps and the same old party hacks. New blood is desperately needed.

wobbles:>> I could list some of "Honest John" Howard's less-than sincere outcomes but there is a word limit.Posted by wobbles<<

Wobbles I am not a right wing guy, so go ahead and bag Howard, you will not entice me to defend him. I only am focused on the lot in power now, the ones failing so miserably now, screwing us over right now.

Belly:>> Sonofglion, review your list, it is full of presumptions and quite untrue mostly.<<

Belly, pick any one of the failings I listed and I would be pleased to review the original policy or undertaking with you and measure the actual outcome against the vaunted policy outcome, if indeed the undertaking was not canned after cost over runs or implementation issues. Pick any one and we will break it down and review the result if you wish and see if what I say is “quite untrue mostly”.

Belly to my mind the most capable interpreter of the human condition was Shakespeare. One line of the bard’s observations is pivotal to our survival as individuals and as a society, “to thine own self be true”. I believe that all current Fed Labor politicians and anyone in the Party Machine that is on $100k or more a year are not being true to their natures.

Churchill said any man that is not a socialist in his youth has no heart, and if they are not Tories in their maturity they have no brains, and that is the way it generally runs. Labor always has the young vote but more turn from Labor to Liberal than visa versa when they mature. The true social democrat whose character carries the humanities above individual gain keeps to the left all his life. I am saying that the back bench of the Labor Party should have revolted half way through Rudd’s term, but they did not, they wanted power at any cost. These social democrats are anything except true to themselves and the quite rightly idealistic youth they evolved from. Power without glory seems an apt description of the current rabble.

Mostly untrue indeed Belly, the true believer loves his country not hand full of swine that control it, no offence.

Dear SOG,

Interesting take in your previous post and of course one can only speak about one's own experiences. I come from a Liberal-voting family. The generation of my parents associated Labor with communism and they believed hook-line-and sinker the Menzies fear campaigns of "reds-under-the beds." Of course the fact that they were refugees who ran from communism also played a major part in their choice of who they voted for and who they believed. Most of my family and their friends voted for the conservatives. As did I for many years.

However, as I matured, got an education, entered the workforce, got married, travelled, raised a family, I began to question things and began looking more closely at actual policies that were good for me and my family.

This became more important to me than party loyalties. That still applies to this day. Also, Having lived and worked in the US (Los Angeles) influenced me a great deal. I saw first-hand what an unequal society does to people. Where money talks.
America is wonderful - if you've got money. Otherwise you're in trouble. I would hate that way of life to ever come to Oz. Where Big
Business can do what it wants.

As I grow older, like many people, I become more concerned about government policies and their effect on me and my family. I believe there should be room for social equity, compassion and the idea of an egalitarian society. I believe in social welfare, public health, education, and so on. I don't believe that big business has the right to get whatever it wants at the expense of the interests of evryone else.

We are living in critical times. What we don't need is the "kick-the-worker-today-and take-the-money tomorrow," attitude that comes from the so called pollies who are currently at work around the place. The only way in which the country can work properly is for management and Labour to co-operate with one another, not condemn one another. But the sad truth is that condemnation is the only language that some people appear to understand.

Lexi I am guessing that your fore bears had a view of the Baltic Sea from their back door, and if so they certainly had reason to revile Stalin’s communism.

My lot were transported here for being dissident, and their lineage from the time of the NSW general strike have been the dissident voice in many local Labor Party branches so I was indoctrinated with Labor philosophy. I am by nature a social democrat but unlike the head social democrat Julia Gillard I would give pensioners a rate rise even if they did not vote for me, they built what I enjoy today. That is the thinking that has the Labor "social" credentials in tatters and their band aid appeasements are despicable self serving acts of supposed social democracy meant only to further their own existence.

Lexi you said "I believe there should be room for social equity, compassion and the idea of an egalitarian society". The ALP was founded in Barcaldine and your statement succinctly echoes the aspirations of that group of ag workers. The rank and file was always to be the end recipient of party policy, now they are a means to an end. There is no Labor Party, but there is the Chardon Fabian Party the ones who just yesterday stripped billions from medical research so we can lay ideological internet cables, cannot cure your illness, but we can look it up in a flash. The Libs are callous bastards but the Labor crowd are bald faced lying chameleons.

SOG you use the word lie instead of fail, often in your post.
You look for a Labor party than can never again be.
Look at the greens,said to be conservationists.
They could have given us an ETS.
Did not,why, wanted a crippling one!
Given you view,a lost one, that Labor fails its past,why then is the true leftist party only getting 12%?
Because that is the total left vote, no more exist.
IF you want reform true balance,come to understand balance of power in the senate need not be private property of so left a group.
Tonight our time tea party America and Democrats dealed.
IF Abbott can stop ranting we can out maneuver greens its in our country's interests.
Your Labor can never be elected you cede government to conservatives forever if you want perfection .
No party is able to get near that.
Greens threaten the anti conservatives, and could well entrench Conservative power for decades.

Dear SOG,

Yes, some of my ancestors did have a view of the Baltic Sea. Others lived in the Russian provinces. Many ended up in gulags, many were tortured and perished. My grandmother was Russian. I'm sorry to hear that you think so poorly of politicians. But I can't really blame you with what's currently available. Many people are disappointed with things at present.

I'm going to keep my fingers-crossed that things will improve. Sooner than later. BTW - Thanks for sharing your views.

Me too SOG, a social democrat by nature. And here,here, on the post before last Lexi.

It is probable that the Chardon Fabian Party has taken over as you describe SOG, but the alternative is too awful to describe in the long term entrenchment of conservative politics that Belly heralds and fears. He could be right about this ?.

So where does a social democrat drift too with his vote, but towards parties such as the Greens, where the object is to at least make a principled vote, even if misguided ?.

I suspect that a New Major Party needs to emerge from the ashes of the status quo Belly, giving all Australian politicians, a new run for their money.
Something to think about, a universal kick in the pants perhaps.

What about it thinker2? You would be a good candidate to get the ball rolling. From the many discussions I have with people and the feedback from voters is lament at the rise of corporatism at the expense of Social Democracy. And the lack of real representation arising from a small elitist group who dictate the shape of public policy to a large extent.

I reckon it would be worth a go.

It may well be so thinker 2.
I can not stress enough it would have to be anchored in reality.
Social Democrats is not growth area in this country.
We must confront the fact self interest drives too many voters.
Others get the voting intentions from shock jocks and the newspaper the fish and chips come in.
I hold my hand up here, I once thought the Greens could be that party.
While being honest ,never thought much of Bob Brown.
Yet handed out their how to votes with my own every election.
Down SM, honesty at work here.
Look see with open heart and mind, the NSW Greens policy's and members.
Tell me they are in ANY WAY a conservation group.
Liberals box smart, with National party are a tag team.
Greens,by Browns orders are no partner to Labor, NEVER AGAIN SHOULD BE OTHER THAN OUR ENEMY.
So why not your SD party one that can get preferences from greens and Labor.
I will stand with Labor, demand a clean up, a new leader and dumping those who undermined our party.
But I fear we have had our good deeds hidden by our mounting failures.
And know, sadly fearfully,we will be in great trouble at the polls.
I also understand the next conservative government if lead by Abbott will fall on the same sword Howard did.

Talking of Labor's jettisoning its past and "looking to the future" - here is a recent article titled "The Perversion of Social Democracy in Australia" by Amy Mullins.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/55630.html

It contains an audio link to British Historian, Tony Judt's lecture titled "What is Living and What is Dead in Social Democracy"...this is an insightful analysis of the gradual erasure of social democratic values to be replaced by purely economic imperatives....here is a further link to a transcript of Judt's lecture....worth a read for anyone who's interested.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/dec/17/what-is-living-and-what-is-dead-in-social-democrac/

Belly,

You have nailed the issue with the greens in one. When the greens were a conservationist party a decade ago, their polling was typically 2%. Recently they have begun absorbing agitators from the far left.

The Carbon tax amongst others suit the Green's agenda and the fact that these policies that were a condition of the alliance will damage Labor is in BB's interest, as weakening Labor makes the Greens look a viable alternative.

As far as the coalition is concerned, the more they can successfully portray labor policy as trailing the greens the more the lower to middle income man in the street is horrified, and will leave the social engineering of Labor/greens for the income and employment protection of the liberals.

As for business, the labor party is looking wounded and weak, and could collapse at a single puff of advertising. The mining, banking, petrochemical, steel, gaming, and others are lining up for the kill. If Labor is hammered continuously for 2 years, the next election might deliver results similar to those in NSW.

SM,

You've got a great gift for pushing your agenda which is a serviceable substitute for the facts (or lack of) and a useful tool for the Party that you support. I trust that they appreciate what you're doing for them.

Sorry about this Lexi, Shadow Minister I agree with all but the last part of your post!
It is true that lunatic left are hiding within the greens, in the drivers cabin steering wheel in hand.
And that average Aussie has had a gutful of them.
Do not forget, conservation or not, the greens are radical, always have been.
Conservation, we all suffer,, our true conservationists too because this mob make the word dirty.
Labor however, while much must be done is full of great talent and promise.
Not however in Gillard and her personal hangers on.
Here Lexi is quite right, you are a mirror image of your party's leadership.
No need for truth understanding or even to keep promises made.
Just slander and undermine.
FORGETTING it is not a football match its the very life blood of our country.
We want better from politics.
I may yet be wrong about Hanson, if so will be first to say but mate in Truth you just have to be Cristopher Pyne!or Julie Bishop!

Belly,

Read this then tell me if you still disagree with my last point.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/labor-needs-another-messy-battle-like-a-hole-in-the-head-20110411-1db5h.html

Lexi,

For someone whose posts are singularly devoid of facts, and who has failed to even challenge any of what I have submitted, you are hardly one to talk. If you want to challenge me on the facts please produce some. I am generally careful in checking my facts before I post, and while you can argue with my interpretation, the facts are solid.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Your facts are not solid and everyone knows it. They are merely presented from your one-eyed point of view - and always negatively against Labor. However, you keep pushing your barrow. That's your agenda. We all get it!