I note that some support various points by claiming that atheists aren’t pushing a barrow but then other anti-Christians cite atheist activist internet sites.

Ybgirp
Re: “evolutionary scientist” Paul study on religion. Point is what? Paul conveniently doesn’t determine the religion of the individuals responsible for the problems preferring to create an aura of Christian social problems. Also, secularism has the upper hand in the US society where it counts as indicated by US Supreme Court decisions. These types of criticisms are not just mine. In peer review Paul’s study attracted scathing comments:

“This lack of measuring clarity and falsification not only causes Paul to violate the scientific principles of corrigibility and incrementalism but allows Paul to engage in theoretical though meaningless comparisons of nations based on simple scatter plots and outlying data.”

Further, Paul was selective in his health indicators. America might not do well with abortions but are better for suicide. The same can be said for teen pregnancy compared to cirrhosis death rates or consumption of narcotics.

As regards the social freedom issue it is incorrect to compare opposition of same sex oriented marriage to other social issues. The American imported WCTU considered to have an overwhelmingly Protestant character pushed for women's voting rights. Catholics are believed to have had less involvement partly for that reason but mainly as their predominantly working class existence made it harder. That is not to say that Catholic women didn’t get involved in the push. Notable examples are the Golding sisters. Christians have also been instrumental in advancing workers’rights, and at around the time of the "Aborigines on the census" issue Pope Paul VI’s comments during his Australian visit “We deeply respect your dignity and reiterate our deep affection for you.” demonstrate the Catholic position. Sure Christians have opposed the same sex movement but they generally promote social justice.

Finally, your love of children being a natural necessity unrelated to religion comment was made after David’s Netherland example. As a courtesy I do no more than suggest it would be prudent to read the posts before you comment.

MJPB
I have realised that you more than likely did not appreciate the irony of my previous “You win” post so I must rectify that error. In refuting your illogical replies to my facts I could write a thirty or forty page treatise but in the interests of brevity I’ll try to make pertinent points only.
Fact One. The dictionary has this to say about credible: 'able to be believed; convincing'. Now how can one possibly believe or be convinced that a man can walk on water, part the waters of an ocean, turn a fish and a lump of bread into a feast, or any of the other tricks of magic mentioned in the bible? Why does the bible not mention the Americas, Australia and Africa? Could it be that the Omnipotent God failed to tell the primitive writers of the bible these facts? Why didn’t he tell them about the millions of other suns in the universe? Why didn’t he tell them about the cures available for the horrendous maladies he invented to scourge mankind?
Fact Two. Atheists intolerant? Where have you associated with an Atheist? Never obviously. As for relatives, well they prefer to take the easy path to avoid family arguments and agree for harmony’s sake.
Fact Three – so you agree?
Fact Four – NO. On the contrary. It shows that ‘heritage’ as well as ‘tradition’ both have a shelf life and can be changed at the whim of the majority.
Fact Five. You missed my point again. The Roman Catholic mention was to make a point. The issue was the Constitution. The point I was making was that science has changed man’s thinking considerable in the last one hundred years. Many of the men who wrote the Constitution, if they were alive today, would be ashamed of what they wrote.
Fact Six. Maybe we have a different interpretation of hypocrisy? Bowing one’s head to a mythological god while not believing in gods is hypocrisy which ever way you look at it.

Oh dear, mjpb, you are clutching at straws.
why is equality for same-sex-oriented people not a social issue? Are they not human, deserving of humane treatment? is their love not as good as other people's? Your ill-founded prejudices are tripping you up.
As for that apocryphal tale from Boaz about a minor oddball political party in The Netherlands proposing child abuse... how many members has this party? who do they represent? have they a skerrik of hope of election? of course not. All it demonstrates is the political freedom heretofore enjoyed by the Dutch -- freedoms that are being undermined by fundamentalist religious immigrants - as is happening here.
Of course Paul's study was rubbished by the people he criticised, that's the christian way. Chop off their heads!
When I read scientific facts that throw new light on my opinions, I change my opinions. What do you do?

Accent

Re: equating secular killers with secularism

Indeed you have a point. However that cuts both ways. Giving examples of people purporting to be Christians behaving badly is attributing behaviours to the religion that in many cases conflict with the religion.

Re: your judgement of the God of the Bible.

If you even accept the Bible as truth as a hypothetical then God is an omnipotent being. If so then how can you determine that He did wrong in demolishing Sodom and Gomorrah? Wouldn’t it be pretty foolish to pit your human mind against His and determine what is right and what is wrong and to judge him as doing wrong? I am assuming of course that you don’t also consider yourself to be an omnipotent being and accept that you are human (presumably a safe assumption).

If a small child has a large wolf charging at her and her father shoots it she may well touch the fallen beast, associate it with her teddy bear, and judge her father to be a horrible person. This is solely due to her lack of experience and cognitive ability. The Bible God is omnipotent and eternal. The hypothetical child would be in a better position to make the judgement of her parent than a human judging such an omnipotent being.

Rhys

Fact One. Haven’t you heard that truth is stranger than fiction?

Fact Two. I actually had the “erode the heritage to remove all traces of the hated Christianity” thing in mind. Again, why would people always seek harmony with Christians but never rabid atheists? I have never heard a Christian tell an atheist that they should keep their views to themselves.

Fact Three – If you think it is valuable.

Fact Four – If tinkering with state numbers is that important.

Fact Five. Sorry if I missed a point. I am focusing on religion not on general issues of science or speculating about what people might think

Fact Six. It might not be a different view of hypocrisy but a different view of the behaviour.

Fact 2. You have never been an Atheist. Believe me when I tell you the Christians never tell you to shut up - they are always too busy trying to get you to convert with monotonous regularity.

mjpb,

"Re: your judgement of the God of the Bible.

If you even accept the Bible as truth as a hypothetical then God is an omnipotent being. If so then how can you determine that He did wrong in demolishing Sodom and Gomorrah? Wouldn’t it be pretty foolish to pit your human mind against His and determine what is right and what is wrong and to judge him as doing wrong? "

What christains who say that we can't use our intellects to judge the christian god keep forgetting is that they do exactly the same for every other "god".

I've noticed a distinct willingness by many christain to judge Allah and his actions as carried out through his prophet. If your argument is valid it should apply there as well.

Likewise every other concept of a god that is greater than a human (not much of a god otherwise) should be beyond our ability to judge. Do you accept the claims of the various greek, roman, egyptian and older middle eastern gods.

Does Baal get his due worship from you because his ways are beyond your understanding or do you rightly use the abilities you have do judge those claims and find them lacking?

R0bert