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The Forum > General Discussion > Catholic Church Must change, from a Catholic

Catholic Church Must change, from a Catholic

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Lexi, can I join you with that coffee? Make mine a double :)

AGIR <"Euthenasia ? Not when implemented by an external party, but for the self ? I'm inclined to feel that if a person believes their time is up... well..as Paul said "to die is gain" (Phil 1:21) and "I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;""

Well good on you for that independent thought AGIR.
Cherry-picking from the bible again.

I recall the bible calls suicide a 'Grave sin", and I am sure that means it is a one way trip to hell?

"Suicide—Suicide is murder of the self. It is contrary to the love of God, self, family, friends and neighbors (CCC 2281)."
http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
Posted by suzeonline, Thursday, 10 February 2011 9:24:18 AM
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One of the five tenants of Catholic belief in the doctrine of predestination and salvation is; “Final perseverance or at least the grace of a happy death”. Is this a portent to the end trajectory of the church itself? One would wonder!
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 10 February 2011 10:09:34 AM
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Suze:

I would love to share a cuppa with you. Good friends, good conversation - (sigh). Now back to the topic... I'm going to quote from Dr Paul Collins again - because I feel that what he says about the Catholic Church makes sense:

"What I want to emphasize is that a shift of emphasis does not imply the "abandonment" or jettisoning of something. It simply means that we have already integrated the past it is already part of the river, but the stream has moved onward. Today history and human experience are the norms we use to understand our human predicament and metaphysics is relegated to the background. Essentially our challenge is to formulate a contemporary theology and catechesis that recognises the role of memory and experience. History is about the ever-changing, always complex and often serendipitous interplay of events, processes, circumstances, and personalities in extraordinarily diverse and variegated sets of cultural and political contexts. As such it is a much needed antidote and balance to the absolutism of metaphysics. Essentially metaphysical absolutism is about protecting hierarchy. It is about arranging reality in a structured, top-down way which ultimately powerful churchmen interpret. It is essentially about "sacra potestas" - holy power.
Metaphysics has survived because --- the ancient structure of "power" has survived."

Whether the Catholic Church can abandon this structure of power and develop is something that needs to be discussed. The Church's stance should not be set in stone, the tradition is a dynamic reality that grows and changes - there are possibilities - however, I shall discuss them in another post. I've now got to run and keep an appointment..."
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 10 February 2011 11:00:16 AM
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weareunique

'It is incorrect and unfair to shoot the messenger Runner.'
I disagree with much of the Catholic church as I believe they pay little attention to the Scriptures. However for me to expect them to change their ways is arrogance. No one is forced to stay in an organization that they belong to. Multitudes have departed for various reasons. The author cited attitudes towards homosexuality, male authority etc. To me male authority is miles above female usurping (ask Kevin Rudd). The point however is you have a choice of whether to stay or go. We live in a free country.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 10 February 2011 12:39:50 PM
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Indeed Runner practices what he preaches. He is a former Catholic.

Dr Collins does not support the current situation but is optimistic if he gets his way. Not all who find the Catholic Church distasteful share that view. For example John Carroll as per his comments in an ABC program:

"John Carroll: Well I should say to start with these are the remarks of a sociologist who’s interested in the current world. I’m not a Catholic and I never have been a Catholic.

...The Catholic church takes the Gospel line of that from Christ that Peter is going to found the church, Peter’s going to found a church in which he and its Bishops and its priests, have the power to bind and to loose, to quote Matthew. That means that they have the keys into heaven or hell; in practical terms that’s meant at the bottom of the hierarchy the priest has this extraordinary - it is an extraordinary power - ...

Now this is really big stuff. It links then with an instruction which is hierarchical, it’s of its nature that it’s hierarchical...you are separating off the inner core of the elite from everybody else; they must have privileged knowledge, ...

Now this is the animal, this is the Catholic church, and it’s a bit like protesting against that is a bit like saying you don’t like lions because they roar or because they eat human beings. That’s the nature of lions. If you don’t like them, you stay away from them...someone like George Pell is correct. He is moving into an institution in huge crisis, perhaps terminal crisis in the West. ...

So it seems to me that on the one hand we have a lion here...On the other hand, that creature is almost entirely out of touch with the sensibility, the orientations to the spirit, the sense of moral culpability and non-moral culpability in the late 20th century West.

Stephen Crittenden: You’re describing a church that’s clapped out in the modern world...

John Carroll: I’m saying exactly that, and I think it’s an impossible situation."

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/relig/enc/stories/s270911.htm
Posted by mjpb, Thursday, 10 February 2011 1:00:08 PM
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Dear Lexi

I think it's more confidence than arrogance...but there is a lot of persistence there too.

Of course you don't have to embrace 'my' opinions.. u r free.
Never said otherwise. But consider.. If I see you are walking out onto the road looking to the left and a bus is coming from the right... is it not my duty to warn you "Bussssss.. get bacccckkk" :)

You could always scream back "But I don't beLIEVE in busses!"

But by all means have a good scream if it makes you feel better.

Suz.. when I cherry pick.. I do so with justification.

I did not mention suicide..and my grammar was up the spout with that 'but for the self' bit.. we can simply decline medical treatment. That's not suicide and in any case I'm not aware of a single verse in the Bible which says "suicide/self inflicted death" is a sin....can you find one ?

The Catholic church might say so..but I sure can't find a clear Biblical basis for it.

Imagine.. you are hanging on to a branch over a cliff.. your strength is fading.. you know you are going to fall eventually.. so.. you make your peace with the Almighty, commit your life to him..and let go.
Suicide? I think not.

Count me in for the cuppa.. you both can rant and scream and point fingies at me as much as you like :)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 10 February 2011 1:11:54 PM
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