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The Forum > General Discussion > Catholic Church Must change, from a Catholic

Catholic Church Must change, from a Catholic

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The Catholic Church, of which I am a member, needs to urgently change not just rules or customs, but its fundamental attitude, which is top-down authoritarianism.
Bottom-up democracy has its faults, its extremes, but the church, like the Scouts, the unions and other male authoritarian structures, faces irrelevance as its ageing demographic clings to the 1950s.
Its claim to authority is based not on the Bible, which many others also revere, but on its own history and structure.
Younger Australians simply will not be talked down to, nor given faith-based strictures as truth without proof. There's too much information available.
The Church will not die if it opens itself up to member participation, questions the unchallengeability of the Old Testament, accepts gays and women as equal and in all roles, and institutes discussion of all issues to do with spirituality - which is its core business. On the contrary, it will spring back to life, relevant and helpful.
It is a religion of the book, but the book is a guide and Jesus told St Peter that whatever shall be loosed on earth, shall be loosed also in Heaven, or words to that effect.
Posted by Bridey, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 10:40:54 AM
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Bridey:

Welcome to the Forum. I'm also a Catholic and I agree with you completely. I highly recommend the book by Dr Paul Collins called,
"Believers: Does Australian Catholicism Have A Future?" (With a Foreword by Geraldine Doogue). Paul Collins is one of Australia's most respected commentators on the Catholic Church. A graduate of Harvard Divinity School and the Australian National University, he is a former priest and a historian and broadcaster. He's also a former specialist editor of religion for the ABC. His publications include,
"Mixed Blessings," "No Set Agenda," "God's Earth," "Between the Rock and a Hard Place," and "Burn." Dr Collins tell us:

"Catholicism has remarkable staying power, an ability to survive unmatched by any contemporary institution. If you've been around for just on 2000 years you will have learned a few tricks... This doesn't mean that the church will be perfect or that parts of it won't wither and die, or that it won't make mistakes... Australian Catholics need to keep in mind that there is a danger that the magnitude of the task facing the church might engender a sense of pessimism and hopelessness however, Catholicism has survived precisely because ultimately it is adaptable and able to change. Often this energy comes late in the piece when everything seems to be in dire straits and it may well emerge from the most unexpected source..."

Collins adds that, " ...the other thing in our favour is that the Australian church is just the right size. Not too small so that it becomes incestuous or destroys itself in in-fighting, not too large so that it becomes impossible to change. Personally, I am optimistic, that Catholicism in Australia will survive, certainly with lesser numbers, but with more commitment and ministerial energy. But to achieve that Catholics will require genuine local leadership and a willingness to confront both the difficulties and the opportunities that the church now faces. My feeling is that we are uniquely placed in Australia to be able to do precisely that."
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 2:01:54 PM
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Bridey

Start your own religion if you don't like the one you are in. I became a Christian so my conscience led me out of the Catholic church. The Green faith promotes homosexuality and feminism so maybe that faith better suites your worldview. Don't however be arrogant enough to insist that an institution change because you don't like it.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 3:20:20 PM
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Where would you find a catholic that does not break the rules of the church. It's just as well they have confession, and probably still tell lies. The church needs AU to run it's own rules or else the church will demise.
How many people going to church and living in sin.
They are leading a fraudulent life. Never get to be a saint.
Posted by 579, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 4:19:59 PM
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I've always maintainted that if they had named somebody as wise as
Paul Collins as pope, Catholic Church pews would not have
emptied out, as they have over the last few decades.

But the hierarchy at the Vatican does not need to care. I gather
that the Church is a huge landholder, even in Australia, from
legacies left to them by previous followers. So with the Vatican
Bank coffers pretty full to overloaded and no tax paid on their
assets around the world, the hierarchy can do as it pleases really,
never mind what the majority of followers think.

As long as enough true believers leave them a share of their assets,
all is sweet. Selling people a ticket to heaven remains the most
profitable business that I know of.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 4:33:45 PM
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Runner, Bridey is stating a well known fact.

The Catholic Church [in which church goers are fully aware] is well over due for an overhaul and total restructure along with hopefully petitioning to the Pope for representatives to marry and enjoy their lives while adhering to morals and values at the same time.

It is incorrect and unfair to shoot the messenger Runner.
Posted by weareunique, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 5:04:06 PM
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the church of rome...has made itself a comfortable place
in the material realm..satans realm

its not as if the secrets about the after-life
havnt been made known to them..but that they have failed to pass them facts on to their people..im not even that sure many even believe what they expect the flock to believe..

we have here..the pre eminant body of christ incarnate
and instead of uniting all the christians..under one roof ,it seems quite content to let things go as they have allways gone..

it cant be the shame..of their past works

or the fact they really do their best to dumb down..
the true eternal spirit realm..revalations

or the ignomious deals they have done with those of these realms..

i guess its just fear..
they know the change wont be allowed to happen..but then look even at the question..we and they know things arnt right..but what is the cure

this realm is after all satans realm..
even jesus said his realm is the realm to come
he went there..to build us a room in his/our fathers house

so much is in error..there is no easy way to go back to how it was intended to be..it would start with grace/mercy..in works..not words

it could be as simple as making the holy days of the christ birth about the christ in us all...and taking back easter and making the truth..[he died and returned..rebutting reserction day and judgment day delusions completly]..

it would help if we prayed properly
knowing god is abouve all good and mercyfull...
[no need to pray for that..but we could give thanks]

then there is that jesus died for our sins
jesus saw no sin in us to 'die' for

oh whats the use
we said it all before
and nothing changes...

we honour god with our lips
ursurors are tunning this world..
and worse the vatican is running with the bankers..[wolves]
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 5:28:35 PM
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Yabby:

Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over.(joking).
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 5:43:51 PM
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Paul Collins as Pope would be a good start.

The Catholic Church does need to re-evaluate its authoritarian nature and tendency to secrecy in relation to child abuse cases. So far it is responding to the latter in a more socially responsible way. There is hope. Not sure how you can change it Bridey if the rules are the rules, then they are the rules.

There are many other Christian Churches that have a much kinder and loving disposition towards women and homosexuals being that all human beings as per the Christian faith are God's children.
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 6:22:52 PM
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Bridey.. well said.. I heartily agree.

The Catholic church SHOULD change :) and embrace the liberating doctrines of Protestantism.

Abandon the idea of 'purchased forgivness' (Indulgences)
Flee from the tyrrany of the Heirachy
Embrace the truth of 'Justification by faith alone'.
Celebrate the true humanity males and females in married priests/pastors

However, it should not in any way change it's stand on homosexual behavior, which, according to the scriptures is a perversion and an abomination.

WHY does it need to change ? Well you answered that perfectly:

//Its claim to authority is based not on the Bible, which many others also revere, but on its own history and structure.//

Exactly.... move from Sola Ecclesia to Sola fide and Sola scriptura.

Never know..the millenium might suddenly arrive then :)

To be fair.. Protestantism should also change.

It should move out from a cozy inward looking incestuously self glorifying body to become an empowered by the Spirit, dynamic active outward looking movement for bringing the Gospel of Christ to every man, woman and child in Australia and even further afield.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 6:36:09 PM
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"faces irrelevance"

Precisely.

Bridey is not at fault if the church does not take good advice. The church is a failure to those principles it *might* have advanced if it dies clinging to an illusory social control not within it's province.

Marriage existed before the church, before even government of any type. All those institutions can do is take note, like a secretary, that ths-and-that are so. The idea that they may define it, or forbid it to *anybody* is like giving orders to the weather. People may of course accept such assertions by the church, and through intellectual vapidity, the church might think that just because it has been so for a while it is set in stone, but they would be wrong.

I for one, would not give a stuff if catholicism disappeared, and even less if runner's sham religion followed.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 8:05:12 PM
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I guess World Youth Day

Was a bit of a fizzer

For you then, Bridey?
Posted by Shintaro, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 9:03:20 PM
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The comments and responses are interesting, if in some cases misinformed or warped by bias unsupported by evidence.
The Church is not rich. I am not attacking the Church on my own behalf, but suggesting reforms - I am neither gay nor female.
But I'm glad I've started a worthwhile debate.
Posted by Bridey, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 9:34:49 PM
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Good on you Bridey for stating the obvious about a now very stale and staid Catholic Church.

I was a Catholic for many years, but am now very much a skeptic
(not an Atheist). I left the 'fold' for many reasons, including their ancient stance on abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, unmarried mums, marriage in general, and child abuse by clergy.

I am fairly sure the Catholic Church IS very well off Bridey. Check out some of the official Vatican websites where they show off their impressive array of priceless treasures, not to mention the truckloads of land they own all over the world.
There aren't any Bishops or Priests in paid employment outside the church is there? They never seem short of a quid, that's for sure.

I would go one step further than you though Bridey, and say that most of the religions of the world are no longer relevant or important to nearly as many people as they used to attract.

They all need to drag themselves out of the distant past and think for themselves, rather than looking to boring ancient books for 'inspiration'.
Posted by suzeonline, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 11:16:53 PM
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Lexi says:

//Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over.(joking).//

I reply... Heaven DOES want you (parable of the 100 sheep...99 safe, one goes astray..shepherd searches high and lo to find it) and Hell ALSO want's you desperately... hell is very greedy.. and it's head honcho Satan is insatiable.(and I'm not joking)

Jesus said: "13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

SUSONLINE.. all of those issues you raised are firmly and confidently answered in the Bible, but not necessarily in the Catholic Church which exists (as per Bridey's testimony) based on it's own traditions and history.

Homosexuality (Behavior) absolutely no

Abortion absolutly no but with medical reservations where one or the other life is at stake.

Euthenasia ? Not when implemented by an external party, but for the self ? I'm inclined to feel that if a person believes their time is up... well..as Paul said "to die is gain" (Phil 1:21) and "I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;"

Unmarried nuns: I agree with you.. let'm marry. The Biblical principle does not require celibacy from marriage for fruitful service.

Marriage in General. Is recommended for those who feel unable to live a celibate life. (Paul speaking as an Apostle)

Child Abuse: the Lord strictly forbode such acts and condemned them. If the church and it's Lord are walking a different path on that, it's time for the members to change direction
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 10 February 2011 7:03:01 AM
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its time you got up to speed

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=vatican+assets&btnG=Search&aq=o&aqi=&aql=&oq=

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=vatican+owns+runs+britain&btnG=Search&aq=o&aqi=&aql=&oq=
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 10 February 2011 7:14:12 AM
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Reform can only happen from pressure within. The many Catholics I know are already thinking for themselves. Many Catholics have sex before marriage, used contraception, some have divorced, some have had affairs, many have had abortions (not specific to Catholics of course).

The people themselves are reforming but I guess they could be accused for cherry picking but that is the nature of religion, otherwise there would not be thousands of variations of the same faith (38.000 Christian faiths according to wikipedia).

There is something for everyone - if the CC does not reform or proves obstinate, there are other Christian faiths.
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 10 February 2011 8:12:14 AM
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AGIR:

I've got to admire your perseverance (arrogance?) - even though it really gets up my nose at times - and I want to scream - "Give it a rest!" Your entitled to your opinions (we keep telling you that and trying to be polite)), but you're not entitled to assume we want to adopt them - and yet you keep flogging them to death. I think I need a cup of strong coffee!
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 10 February 2011 8:28:13 AM
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Lexi, can I join you with that coffee? Make mine a double :)

AGIR <"Euthenasia ? Not when implemented by an external party, but for the self ? I'm inclined to feel that if a person believes their time is up... well..as Paul said "to die is gain" (Phil 1:21) and "I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;""

Well good on you for that independent thought AGIR.
Cherry-picking from the bible again.

I recall the bible calls suicide a 'Grave sin", and I am sure that means it is a one way trip to hell?

"Suicide—Suicide is murder of the self. It is contrary to the love of God, self, family, friends and neighbors (CCC 2281)."
http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
Posted by suzeonline, Thursday, 10 February 2011 9:24:18 AM
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One of the five tenants of Catholic belief in the doctrine of predestination and salvation is; “Final perseverance or at least the grace of a happy death”. Is this a portent to the end trajectory of the church itself? One would wonder!
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 10 February 2011 10:09:34 AM
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Suze:

I would love to share a cuppa with you. Good friends, good conversation - (sigh). Now back to the topic... I'm going to quote from Dr Paul Collins again - because I feel that what he says about the Catholic Church makes sense:

"What I want to emphasize is that a shift of emphasis does not imply the "abandonment" or jettisoning of something. It simply means that we have already integrated the past it is already part of the river, but the stream has moved onward. Today history and human experience are the norms we use to understand our human predicament and metaphysics is relegated to the background. Essentially our challenge is to formulate a contemporary theology and catechesis that recognises the role of memory and experience. History is about the ever-changing, always complex and often serendipitous interplay of events, processes, circumstances, and personalities in extraordinarily diverse and variegated sets of cultural and political contexts. As such it is a much needed antidote and balance to the absolutism of metaphysics. Essentially metaphysical absolutism is about protecting hierarchy. It is about arranging reality in a structured, top-down way which ultimately powerful churchmen interpret. It is essentially about "sacra potestas" - holy power.
Metaphysics has survived because --- the ancient structure of "power" has survived."

Whether the Catholic Church can abandon this structure of power and develop is something that needs to be discussed. The Church's stance should not be set in stone, the tradition is a dynamic reality that grows and changes - there are possibilities - however, I shall discuss them in another post. I've now got to run and keep an appointment..."
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 10 February 2011 11:00:16 AM
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weareunique

'It is incorrect and unfair to shoot the messenger Runner.'
I disagree with much of the Catholic church as I believe they pay little attention to the Scriptures. However for me to expect them to change their ways is arrogance. No one is forced to stay in an organization that they belong to. Multitudes have departed for various reasons. The author cited attitudes towards homosexuality, male authority etc. To me male authority is miles above female usurping (ask Kevin Rudd). The point however is you have a choice of whether to stay or go. We live in a free country.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 10 February 2011 12:39:50 PM
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Indeed Runner practices what he preaches. He is a former Catholic.

Dr Collins does not support the current situation but is optimistic if he gets his way. Not all who find the Catholic Church distasteful share that view. For example John Carroll as per his comments in an ABC program:

"John Carroll: Well I should say to start with these are the remarks of a sociologist who’s interested in the current world. I’m not a Catholic and I never have been a Catholic.

...The Catholic church takes the Gospel line of that from Christ that Peter is going to found the church, Peter’s going to found a church in which he and its Bishops and its priests, have the power to bind and to loose, to quote Matthew. That means that they have the keys into heaven or hell; in practical terms that’s meant at the bottom of the hierarchy the priest has this extraordinary - it is an extraordinary power - ...

Now this is really big stuff. It links then with an instruction which is hierarchical, it’s of its nature that it’s hierarchical...you are separating off the inner core of the elite from everybody else; they must have privileged knowledge, ...

Now this is the animal, this is the Catholic church, and it’s a bit like protesting against that is a bit like saying you don’t like lions because they roar or because they eat human beings. That’s the nature of lions. If you don’t like them, you stay away from them...someone like George Pell is correct. He is moving into an institution in huge crisis, perhaps terminal crisis in the West. ...

So it seems to me that on the one hand we have a lion here...On the other hand, that creature is almost entirely out of touch with the sensibility, the orientations to the spirit, the sense of moral culpability and non-moral culpability in the late 20th century West.

Stephen Crittenden: You’re describing a church that’s clapped out in the modern world...

John Carroll: I’m saying exactly that, and I think it’s an impossible situation."

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/relig/enc/stories/s270911.htm
Posted by mjpb, Thursday, 10 February 2011 1:00:08 PM
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Dear Lexi

I think it's more confidence than arrogance...but there is a lot of persistence there too.

Of course you don't have to embrace 'my' opinions.. u r free.
Never said otherwise. But consider.. If I see you are walking out onto the road looking to the left and a bus is coming from the right... is it not my duty to warn you "Bussssss.. get bacccckkk" :)

You could always scream back "But I don't beLIEVE in busses!"

But by all means have a good scream if it makes you feel better.

Suz.. when I cherry pick.. I do so with justification.

I did not mention suicide..and my grammar was up the spout with that 'but for the self' bit.. we can simply decline medical treatment. That's not suicide and in any case I'm not aware of a single verse in the Bible which says "suicide/self inflicted death" is a sin....can you find one ?

The Catholic church might say so..but I sure can't find a clear Biblical basis for it.

Imagine.. you are hanging on to a branch over a cliff.. your strength is fading.. you know you are going to fall eventually.. so.. you make your peace with the Almighty, commit your life to him..and let go.
Suicide? I think not.

Count me in for the cuppa.. you both can rant and scream and point fingies at me as much as you like :)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 10 February 2011 1:11:54 PM
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*So it seems to me that on the one hand we have a lion here...*

Seems to me, that we have more like a Vatican ostrich here, with
its head deep in the sand....
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 10 February 2011 1:52:17 PM
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Here in Germany a (sizable) minority of Catholic theologians have recently (4/2/2011) published a Memorandum (http://www.memorandum-freiheit.de/) "Church in 2011" (I don't know of an English translation) where the six points they are pushing have already been implemented in the "Evangelische" (Lutheran) Church. I think Paul Collins would probably endorse the Memorandum and its six items (although e.g. Hans Küng, remarkably, is not among the 143 signatories).

Catholics and Lutherans comprise the vast majority of German organised Christians, and they have been (and still are), of about the same (gradually diminishing) sizes. The statistics show that more Lutherans than Catholics have been leaving their Churches (http://www.kirchenaustritt.de/statistik/) for years, and there is no indication Catholics leaving their Church would be entering the Lutheran Church in large numbers in spite of the Lutherans' more liberal and less authoritative image of Christianity they present.

The Catholic Church (in the West) has a problem, even larger than that of Christianity as such, no question about that. However, it seems that Paul Collins is not a solution but rather part of the problem. At least within organised Christianity.
Posted by George, Thursday, 10 February 2011 6:18:40 PM
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The way Catholics respond to contemporary challenges will depend on which part of the theological spectrum they inhabit. By placing everyone on a spectrum we recognise that all are Catholics and they all have contributions to make in building up the church. We all need to get beyond stereotypes and recognise the sincerity and contribution to the rich fabric of the church of Catholics with different attitudes to our own, even if we don't personally agree with their specific emphasis. The reason why this is stressed is as
Paul Collins says, "I have so often been told by Catholics who disagree with me to "get out and found my own church if you can't accept the doctrines and rules of the club!" Such people believe that their very narrow definition of Catholicism is the only one that is valid: everyone else is a "heretic" and beyond the pale. Most Catholics have moved beyond these categories. Collins puts it so beautifully: "If like Benedict XVI, you see the church as the sole repository of absolute, unchangeable truth about God, life, and moral values, then your response to the ministerial dilemmas Catholicism faces will be to say that the church is here to guide the world and that it has little or nothing to gain from mundane wisdom. The Catholic's task is to tell it as it is, to proclaim the church's teaching in season and out of season. This is especially true regarding issues like abortion, stem cell research and contraception,
and gender issues like homosexuality, which are seen as centrally important in today's world. The church should batten down the hatches, tighten up the discipline, consolidate inwardly, and confront the world with the "hard" teachings of Jesus. Actually, more accurately, the "hard" teachings of the papal magisterium, which are then identified with Jesus. To these people the universal church is strongly linked with the papacy." Here people ten to focus on the world as a sinful place and humankind as a fallen race tainted with original sin. They despair about post-modern culture teaching us anything worthwhile.

cont'd ...
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 10 February 2011 6:39:32 PM
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cont'd ...

According to Collins:

"If you have a more positive, optimistic view of the world as revealing something of God's goodness, if like John XXIII, you can perceive what is worthwhile in modern culture and if you feel that history is part of the ongoing revelation of God, then you will be at the other end of the spectrum. Such Catholics according to Collins, "Believe that while the world is grace filled with God's presence and the church is one of the most important ways through which people have access to truth and to an experience of God, there is also a recognition that there are other ways to God, which are found in so many great religious traditions. In order to achieve its goal the church must be part of culture, it must emphasise those aspects of its teaching that best respond to the particular needs of the time and place. The focus is on the local church. While maintaining an open stance toward the contemporary world, the church must also offer a direct and honest critique, derived from the Scriptures, of modern culture and values." It must however, "be also willing to participate in the world, to learn from it and to co-operate with other people of good will in building the structures of love, mercy, and justice..."

"For people at this end of the spectrum openess and ecumenism are key values and a strong assertion of Catholic identity is not so important. Of course the extremes of both of these spectrums are caricatures, and most people don't hold either of them in their entirety." While there is a lot of crossover between the two, there is no doubt, Collins says, "we all tend toward one or the other end of the spectrums as much according to our psychology and experience as from our intellectual convictions." Collins belong to the more change-oriented end of the spectrum - Cardinal Pell belongs to the more conservative end. The tragedy is - " that at present there is still an enormous amount of antagonism between the two emphases."
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 10 February 2011 7:09:42 PM
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If on the one hand we do not condone the practice of adherence to Sharia principals to the extent that an individual chooses to behave in a manner which is knowingly contemptuous of the Australian wules,

then why is that when it comes to the Catholic Church that the same standards do not appear to be applied.

Because, if indeed there was a conspiracy to deal with the "Child Abuse Issue" by way of, shall we say, "internal catholic mechanisms" then surely, in principal, that is no different from any form of contempt of the wules when an individual knowingly chooses to do something illegal on the grounds that it is ok or to be encouraged by their personal God concept or belief system ie the hiding the crimes of the sexual abuse of minors by the so called catholic Hierarchy.

Whilst I note the long, ongoing and dastardly history of the Crown visa vi all manner of child abuse from the BlakFellas to their own, to stateless people, but seriously, must this be condoned?

Any individual/organisation or whatever who conspired to hide sexual crimes of abuse against children from both the public and the law should be stripped of all of their assets and titles, deported or jailed and made to start again from CentreLink post an improved and upgraded Prisoner re-habilitation program by legislation with retrospective powers if need be.

Instead we could have the

*Church of Boazy*

(who inspires us in his ongoing Spiritual Mission to rekindle a True Spiritual Fire in the Black and Evil $Money Grubbing$ Torey Heart of the Liberal Party)

a Beautiful Mosque
(coz *Boazy* knows in days gone by the Muslims and the Christians used to share the *Church of Saint John the Baptist* for worship)

a Church for our Patron Saint of Luv Making, who first wed 2 Gay Girls in the early 70's before being legally restricted to the *Covenant of Luv* only,

(I somehow don't think we quite cut the international mustard seed when it comes to Freedom of Religion)

a Nature Shrine, Shinto, Buddhist etc etc.
Posted by DreamOn, Thursday, 10 February 2011 7:39:37 PM
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Sheesh Dreamy.. I better throw a spiritual lassoo over you and draggggg you back from dreamland :)

If you want "my" Church..just read the New Testament.

It will be a great day when the Catholics do the same mate.

cheers
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 10 February 2011 7:58:58 PM
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I believe things should change in the Catholic Church but certainly not for some of the reasons already stated.
Posted by Philo, Thursday, 10 February 2011 8:59:18 PM
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Well, I seem to recall that catholics are expressly prohibited from becoming an Australian Head of State as things currently stand.

Would anyone like to offer reasons as to why this is?
Posted by DreamOn, Friday, 11 February 2011 1:41:59 PM
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Why shouldn't the relevant parties involved in the cover up have their criminal records stamped with "Crime against Children?"

Having just successfully come through immigration processes it becomes more and more apparent that the people of Australia abhore these crimes and seek to protect children HOWEVER,

are we saying that under certain circumstances, that eligible catholics or others get an exemption from this?

..

Here again, a system where there is 1 set of rules for 1 group of people and another set of rules for another seems to be quite common in some parts of the world.
Posted by DreamOn, Friday, 11 February 2011 1:59:04 PM
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It's good that we have a non religious prime minister. That eliminates one bias. A catholic for GG what about a moslem.
Bring the church up to speed, so your deciples are not living in sin, as a course of daily life.
Posted by a597, Friday, 11 February 2011 3:15:47 PM
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a579... it would be constitutionally and legally impossible to have a Muslim as GG or PM.

Why? read the treason act of 1351

A person was guilty of high treason under the Act if they:

* "compassed or imagined" (i.e. planned) the death of the King, his wife or his eldest son and heir;

or the Treason Act (Australia) of 1995

Section 80.1 of the Criminal Code, contained in the schedule of the Criminal Code Act 1995, defines treason as follows:

"A person commits an offence, called treason, if the person:

(a) causes the death of the Sovereign, the heir apparent of the Sovereign, the consort of the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister; or
(b) causes harm to the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister resulting in the death of the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister; or
(c) causes harm to the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister, or imprisons or restrains the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister; or
(d) levies war, or does any act preparatory to levying war, against the Commonwealth; or
(e) engages in conduct that assists by any means whatever, with intent to assist, an enemy:

(i) at war with the Commonwealth, whether or not the existence of a state of war has been declared;

Note 'careeeefully' that last phrase of i)

Now..read Quran 9:29 and 9:30

http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009.asp

I think you'll see why now.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 11 February 2011 6:31:57 PM
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AGIR:

You're beginning to sound like a broken record. And just quietly - do you realize that when you post - using caps - it comes across as shouting? - It is very off-putting.

Fundamentalists exist in all religions. In this context - we can understand suicide bombers. They are acting rationally according to their beliefs. So are the Christian "end-timers," who would bring on Armaggeddon today if they could. The point is that we have almost all moved on, and in a big way, since biblical times. It is commonplace that good historians (and most rational people) don't judge statements from past times by the standards of their own.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 11 February 2011 7:16:45 PM
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Lexi,
What are the things we have moved on from?
What is the logic of the Move?
How is it based in Christ's teachings?
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 12 February 2011 7:09:47 AM
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Perhap this might be of interest:
http://ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/americas-religious-marketplace-real-catholic-problem-new-sales
Posted by George, Saturday, 12 February 2011 9:34:20 AM
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Philo:

Re-read my previous posts. Or better still go to your local library and get hold of the copy of - "Believers: Does Australian Catholicism Have A Future?" by Dr Paul Collins - he's the expert and you'll get a more comprehensive answer to your questions. It's a marvellous book - and keeps hope alive. As Geraldine Doogue writes in the foreword to the book -"Collins invites us to revisit our own tradition; to reassess the prospect of life in Australia without its influence...He begs us for new energy, to believe the Church is worth our best renewed effort..."

I'm going on leave for 2 weeks - and I simply don't have the time to answer your questions in the depth that they deserve. The book will do that for me.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 12 February 2011 10:38:28 AM
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