It appears based on the new Gillard Medicare Flood Levy, that Tony Abbott is the real PM of the Country.

The irrefutable logic is thus...

Tony runs an election based on shaming Labor's spending and economic credentials.

Labor doesn't have the guts to defend its stimulus or the talent to explain their policies.

Gillard/Labor promise to have the budget back in surplus by 2012/13.

Floods in QLD.

Sensible thing to do is to go into deficit.

Gillard/ALP again too gutless to do this politically, scared of the Abbott boogie man 'stop the boats' style electioneering.

Gillard starts new Levy as she just hasn't the guts to have a deficit.

Who's running the country?

One Tony Abbott.

The result?

Bad policy.

If he's going to run the country anyway, I'm going to vote for him so he can do it in a more constructive way. I blame the ALP not him.

Be right up your ally to have a debt over the floods . Hence the flood levy.

Houellebecq, your logic pans out, certainly some of it influenced the by now gun shy Julia.

But Speaking of Abbott I am afraid to say that he has not improved in the statesman stakes since the election. Every time I hear him being interviewed by a sympathetic journo on radio he has to be force fed the issues to discuss and directed to the appropriate answer. A non partisan journo tears him apart easily. He is stumbling and unconvincing as an orator, but that is unimportant, as long as he knows what issues to address and have some strategy outline to convey. He was lacking in those then and they have not appeared on the horizon since. Something has to change, but I don't want that elitist alien Turnbull back.

Worth the laugh and welcome back, but hear ye hear ye Tony will never be our PM.

I'm with Belly on this one.

It would be a truly worrying thing if Tony Abbott were PM.

It would also be a travesty to vote for such a person Houllebecq, just out of spite, but I concede your point about a gun shy Govt.

Hopefully this will change when the senate changes midyear, giving the Labor/Ind/Green Alliance Govt a chance for some air. It would certainly be good for Australia to refocus on the positives and the future rather than a son of Howard Govt led by Abbott and the past.

It would be good for Australia if the opposition stopped using emotive language, like today for instance straight out of TA's mouth.
The budget has "plenty of fat" to use instead of a levy. Before the election we had a" Labor created debt crisis". I'm not talking about the content, I'm talking about the language, its consistently emotive and comprises of talking down the accomplishments and talking up the negatives. Purely for political purposes, and only time did we get a respite from this tactic was during their Christmas break.

Not only is it a powerful political tactic , it is damaging, counterproductive, and disgraceful
that a political bunch could stoop so low, purely driven by their own self interest.

Abbott for Pm ? No thanks.

Abbott makes a good

Attack dog, but too nasty

For most electors

Rats...and I thought my buddy PROXY was back :) Hoully.. you are a scoundrel and a tease. *grin*

Even the catastrophe of the floods cannot encourage the intellectual gnomes who represent us in the federal parliament to cooperate in the nation's best interests and agree the obvious, that it makes far better sense to increase the current accounts deficit and spread the costs to future years.

Of course to do that both Gillard and Abbott would have to agree that the posturing both do regarding the current accounts deficit is both foolish and counter-productive.

Now is the time to rebuild quickly while at the same time grasping the opportunity to develop significant new infrastructure.

But no, there is the same old stuff from the same old war horses on both sides of the House, with the court jesters, the Greens, providing comic relief.

Tony Abbot is without a doubt Australia's worst ever opposition leader:
He's a moron who can't budget a high-end salary, superstitious bible-thumper, callous, greedy, and a sniveling two-faced liar who lacks the redeeming features a conservative leader normally has (he even was prepared to not only bribe, but secretly sabotage his own border security stance in the hopes of getting the same INdependent MP who rejected him the first time to change sides).

For the Liberals to have put a clown like him in charge simply leaves me in a position to look towards the other parties (not Labor though).

Having said that, seeing as he will be little better or worse than Labor, I am not greatly concerned about the old 'we-must-vote-the-other-party-to-oust-this-one' line:

Lol! So you don't like the Mad Abbott then, King Hazza? :)

I was about to say something similar, but you said it all so well that I don't have much to add!

I very much doubt if Abbott will ever be in charge of our country.
We have far too many intelligent voters in Australia to allow that to happen.

The sugestion that Tony Abbot is PM by proxy suggests he has the leadership over Labor current best.

Welcome back Houellebecq.

Tony Abbott; PM by proxy?

Thanks for the joke as Belly said, but - No Thanks!
And talking of proxies and jokes - here's another one:

The Smiths had no children and decided to use a proxy father to start their family. On the day the proxy father was to arrive, Mr Smith kissed his wife and said, "I'm off. The man should be here soon."

Half an hour later, just by chance, a door-to-door baby photographer rang the doorbell, hoping to make a sale.

"Good morning madam. You don't know me, but I've come to ..."

"Oh, no need to explain. I've been expecting you," Mrs Smith cut in.

"Really?" the photographer asked. "Well, good! I've made a specialty of babies."

"That's what my husband and I had hoped. Please come in and have a seat. Just where do we start?" asked Mrs Smith, blushing.

"Leave everything to me. I usually try two in the bathtub, one on the couch and perhaps a couple on the bed. Sometimes the living room floor is fun too; you can really spread out."

"Bathtub, living room floor? No wonder it didn't work for Harry and me."

"Well, madam, none of us can guarantee a good one every time. But if we try several different positions and I shoot from six or seven angles, I'm sure you'll be pleased with the results."

"I hope we can get this over with quickly," gasped Mrs Smith.

"Madam, in my line of work, a man must take his time. I'd love to be in and out in five minutes, but you'd be disappointed with that, I'm sure."

"Don't I know!" Mrs Smith exclaimed.

The photographer opened his briefcase and pulled out a portfolio of his baby pictures. "This was done on the top of a bus in downtown London." "Oh my God!" Mrs Smith exclaimed, tugging at her hankerchief.

"And these twins turned out exceptionally well when you consider their mother was so difficult to work with." The photographer handed Mrs Smith the picture.

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

"She was difficult?" asked Mrs Smith.

"Yes, I'm afraid so I finally had to take her to Hyde Park to get the job done right. People were crowding around four and five deep, pushing to get a good look."

"Four and five deep?" asked Mrs Smith, eyes widened in amazement.

"Yes," the photographer said. "And for more than three hours too. The mother was constantly squealing and yelling. I could hardly concentrate. Then darkness approached and I began to rush my shots. Finally, when the squirrels began nibbling on my equipment I just packed it all in."

Mrs Smith leaned forward. "You mean they actually chewed on your, er..., um..., ah... equipment?"

"That's right. Well madam, if you're ready, I'll set up my tripod so that we can get to work."

"Tripod?" Mrs Smith looked extremely worried now.

"Oh yes, I have to use a tripod to rest my Canon on. It's much too big for me to hold while I'm getting ready for action. Madam? Madam? Good Lord, she's fainted!"

Kevin Rudd possessed a free thinking brain, and the guts for decision making to go with them; he was “his own man” and a non-conformist; inflexibly so.

Gillards is a “Chairman” style leadership; rule by compromise and conferencing in a world of “Happy-Happy”. Abbott is obviously onto it. Intimidation is a successful tactic under those circumstances, if he can get away with it. I believe he will win out in the end. His personal tenacity will ensure that.

Love it Lexi.
Now Tony's great big new tax, you know the one,heaping wealth on those who have a child remember it?
Would have been? a levee on big business quickly passed on to us all, but that is ok isn't it? why?
This tax is so small, so little it is less than a coffee every morning.
It however is being used as a weapon by the desperate conservatives.
Aware Gillard is not shining but also that at a time they should be, Abbott is a fill in leader until they gather their thoughts.
So too is Gillard.
But at least she is rebuilding not destroying Abbott's only skill.

Thanks Belly.

This was overheard at a press conference prior to the ousting of
Malcolm Turnbull:

Tony Abbott: "What's he got that I haven't got?"

Reply: "Awareness."

Tony Abbott: "What's that?"

Have any noticed how Mr. Abbott behaves at the press interviews he calls. Lopes in,makes a couple of three or fours word slogans, such as mates do not tax mates. Another people have suffered enough, etc. Answers three or four innocuous questions until a probing one comes along. His reaction is to say that is all and stomps off.

Yep I've noticed that too Flo. A quick camera byte "It's bad policy, it's lazy policy" then out the door for another swim and a bike ride. :)

DD, Kevin Rudd was not "his own man", he was purely poll driven and yes I agree the ALP is gun shy on the flood levy. I don't think the flood levy responses have set the ground for a Tony Abbot as PM by proxy at all. The ALP is responding as usual to polls of which the latest reveals (as much as they are to be trusted) 30% FOR and 70% AGAINST.

In fact, Abbott has looked a bit of a pillock on this one as he can't seem to see the difference in his party's proposed levy for their much publicised middle class welfare policies and a short term levy for flood relief.

So have to disagree Houlley. Welcome back by the way.

Suzieonlnie, indeed I don't!
I suppose I should disclose my bias as a secular, conservative-leaning individual who hates liars, prefers liberal social policy, but admittedly leans towards strong border regulation; and prefers managers who can budget a salary of at least six figures and knows about more things about life than God and sports clubs- so I suppose that discriminates against Tony quite a bit!

Whether people would vote for him- he would of course be a massive turn-off to voters, but if Labor's management of the country till the next election ends up unfavorable enough, people may vote for the Libs, Abbot and all, just to get rid of them.
There are plenty of credible minors, but Greens are a bit too 'liberal' for many voters (perfectly fair I admit), and not every state has independents.
Though more supporting both would be much better in my opinion.

Is Tony Abbott a symptom of the Liberals and Nats lack of talent in their own shadow Cabinet.

Abbott, Hockey, Morrison, J Bishop, Pyne, B Bishop, Rudduck, Andrews,Truss, even Hunt,
are hardly world class movers and shakers in their appointed portfolios.
And then there is Turnbull, the born again Prime minister in waiting.

I frankly wonder what the future would hold for us, should such a Govt ever beseech this country.
The Govt would have to go a long way down to be that bad.

And the Gov't we have, hasn't even had the chance to see the light of day,
let alone govern, already fraught by natural disaster, that is no fault of Gov't.

The Opposition would be best to give alarmist rhetoric a rest for a while,
work on their own policies and except the outcome of the election.
Even if it was just for the good of the nation.

Prospect of Mad Monk

As PM makes even awful

Gillard attractive

Labor's incompetence, waste, and sheer inability to read the mood of the population, is the reason that ALP state governments are collapsing, and JG cannot even sell a small levy.

While all the Labor tragics are trying to focus on Abbott, the real issue is that most people want to give to the flood victims, they don't trust Labor to use the money properly.

SM once again out standing!
Out standing biased wrong and divisive.
But plod around in the circle,keep the wheel grinding grist for the mill and all that.
What a shame about the smell,the rubbish being blindly thrown on that wheel.
My concerns, fears, and pain go to Queenslanders and WA as the threat of further damage comes with the first 2 cyclones of the season.
As for Australia? we face financial loss all ready maybe much more,but some of us, not conservatives unfortunate it seems, will give again and again if we need to.
That a funny little man, little in more than one way, wants to pay very high income women to have children,and tax us forever to pay for it, but cares less for our country men than dirty politics is,, sad but not unexpected.

Julia wants to tax us while Tony refuses extra tax.

Julia's agenda for the top 8 recipients of government assistance 2010-2011

Indonesia - $ 458.7 million

Papua New Guinea - $ 457.2 million

Solomon Islands - $ 225.7 million

Afghanistan - $ 123.1 million

Vietnam - $ 119.8 million

Philippines - $ 118.1 million

East Timor - $ 102.7 million

Cambodia - $ 64.2 million

TOTAL = $ 1,669 million -to be given away in 52 weeks

..but wait, there’s more... • Australia provides approximately 150,000 tonnes of food aid every year—about $65 million—to

Bangladesh, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Sudan and Chad.

• In 2010-2011 the Australian Government plans to spend almost $4.4 billion on development assistance to under developed countries.

SO….. Ask your local Member how come 2011 Queensland flood victims only get “$17 million so far”? While our taxes pay for international welfare. Who has Australia's interests?

Philo,

Well, there you go - that is a very un-Christian and insular sentiment that you just displayed.
Do you not consider it right that countries in the "rich West" offer ongoing development assistance in the form of overseas aid?
Many of the countries you listed have been on the receiving end of imperial exploitation and aggression in one form or another.
Are you suggesting that we just pull the ladder out from under them whenever we have a challenge on the homefront?

To quote you from another thread:
"The lawmakers assume we are selfish and uncaring of others plight, when the great Aussie spirit reaches out to our brothers hurting. The principle of the 10 commandments is Love the highest aspects of character and your fellow humans as yourself."

Some correspondents

To this forum redefine

"Christian charity"

Philo old mate you have told us your age.
You come from a time we all believed in Christ, feared him in fact.
He via his followers owned us, but we thought good thoughts about him.
Love forgiveness, promises.
You may dislike this, but generation after generation of people like you, helped us slip the chains of fear and control.
You are just one, tens of Christians, some from my own past infect my e mails with? what can only be described as HATE.
We give to over seas ,your Christ told us to.
You know,please say you do, our governments bill is BILLIONS NOT MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
Is your God Your faith under so much threat from a Labor government you must avoid truth to defend it?
How much is Gillards honesty in telling us she, like me, is not a believer got to do with uncharitable HATE coming from some Christians.
Break free you young folk see the once uniter of men as it now is, politics has blinded Christianity.

Philo's little list is very illuminating:

“Indonesia - $ 458.7 million
Papua New Guinea - $ 457.2 million
Solomon Islands - $ 225.7 million
Afghanistan - $ 123.1 million
Vietnam - $ 119.8 million
Philippines - $ 118.1 million
East Timor - $ 102.7 million
Cambodia - $ 64.2 million
TOTAL = $ 1,669 million -to be given away in 52 weeks
..but wait, there’s more... • Australia provides approximately 150,000 tonnes of food aid every year—about $65 million—to
Bangladesh, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Sudan and Chad.
• In 2010-2011 the Australian Government plans to spend almost $4.4 billion on development assistance to under developed countries.”

Especially if you juxtapose it with the following (common quip) from another thread):

“ The amount of money we give away to colonies we formerly exploited and often left baron, btw, is such a miserable token it's more an insult and source of embarrassment than anything to complain about.We spend more on fireworks!” [no amount of aid, or reason, will ever change that mindset!]

And with, the observation that every time the underdeveloped nations turn up to functions like Copenhagen or a Cancun all they seem interested in is more freebies.

Conclusion:charity begins at home--when we have covered all or own needy then think about oversea aid.

We don't know if TA will make a good PM, what we do know is that JG does not as she is so out of touch it's not funny.

Example. When a flood assistance package was first announced there was a threashold set at $48K combined income. You're Kidding!

How on earth can two people, earning little more than the dole be home owners in the first place.

So, all of a sudden we find yet another 'foot in mouth knee jerk reaction' so what does she do, she doubles it.

Yet further evidence this government is totally out of touch.

I think her policy making device may well be a spinning wheel with the likes of 'yes, no, maybe' etc on it.

You know, if you wish to become captain of the team, you should at least be better than the captain you dethroned!

Perhaps this is a chance for those independents to rethink thier actions that led to this unstable government we now have in place.

Where are the likes of a 'Bob Hawlk', 'John Howard' or even a 'Jeff Kennet' when we need them!

You know, people who actually got things done.

"How on earth can two people, earning little more than the dole be home owners in the first place"

What is your point. The money is not going to home owners. You are wrong, people on low incomes can own homes. Sometimes they inherit from their parents.

I think you might be talking about the level of income to receive state benefits to repair ypur home.

Rehctub, this statement rings very true:
"We don't know if TA will make a good PM, what we do know is that JG does not as she is so out of touch it's not funny."
Gillard has proven herself to be a dreadful PM, all waffle, and in my opinion doesn't know what she is doing when approaching any of these issues (I'd reckon she merely does whatever policymakers and advisers tell her to do).
Then there are her outstanding promises that she had no chance of fulfilling (Broadband) and spending so much of our money on blunders she just retracts (especially in advertising).
Add to that her gung-ho stance to censor the internet and insist that Julian Assange has committed a crime under Australian laws until forced to embarassingly admit he actually didn't when legal experts pointed it out to her, I'm not too thrilled about how much freedoms we will enjoy if we keep re-electing her.

Again, I won't be voting for either, as I know very well Tony Abbot will if anything be worse- just as incompetent and crooked as Gillard, with a few worse touches. He might get better economic advice as a Liberal leader, but I imagine just as many terrible policies will go through under him also.

The question is, what is everyone else willing to risk more?

You forgot Paul Keating Rehctub.

But I agree , a bit of genuine leadership wouldn't go astray at the moment.

1.40 /week if you earn over 60,000

This morning it is not so clear.
If an election was held on this issue who would win.
Tony Abbott still trails very much so, in preferred leaders poll.
Lets be charitable, say Shadow Ministers claim 60% are against this levee, are they too against the cost cutting? spending? do they not consider getting back in the black on schedule worth while?
In time, remember this,Abbott can look back to CONFRONTATIONALISM as both the reason he has held the leadership.
And the reason he lost it.

Belly,

The latest polling is closer to 70% oppose the new flood tax, which also much include many Labor voters. However, almost no one opposes the reconstruction.

The implication is that the government needs to fund this either by incurring debt or cancelling other low return projects. If they even tried fiscal discipline, they could have been in the black already and fund the reconstruction.

I will take you at your word, even having read 3 papers and two news updates I am unaware of that poll.
However I am not unaware of the dog whistle effect, Abbott screams those getting their news from the paper the fish and chips come in do so too.
I believe many are complaining ,without under standing or even knowing they will not pay a cent.
No intention here to do anything but inform you, Tony Abbott has again, in my mind shown he is indeed a little man not statue but in his mean minded confrontation for its own sake.
I feel just exactly that of my party in opposition doing just this.
And I fear our standards in politics is suffering, winning elections not getting it Right is the cause.
Again the tide is turning Abbott is fading Turnbull presents a real threat to him and my party if lead by Gillard.

Belly,

The polls are spot polls and whilst not carrying the same weight as proper polls all point in the same direction. Try google news there have been several.

Considering the obstructionist politics played by Beasley and Rudd, Labor is hardly in position to cry foul now.

JG has declared this the year of delivery. If she fails, Labor is gone.

Above all things Belly, I think of Abbott as having no credibility. The constant badgering of the Gov'ts every move is getting on my nerves.
No wonder the govt is gun shy.

The problem is, that this negative banter, with it's emotive and colourful language, now extends across the whole Coalition rhetorical landscape. They're all doing it now !.

It's true, Abbott has infected the entire Australian political landscape.

And I would not be against the flood levy SM, because I agree with opposition's view on this, and quote all the polling you like,
I'd just thank my lucky stars that the Coalition are not in Government in this time of need.

I'm sure the previous Howard Govt would be responsible for the laws relating to insurance's, that allow corporate giants offer worthless policies or refuse to offer flood insurance at all to some home owners in this country today.

How much will industry and commerce expect the taxpayer to fund, for their loss of business caused by natural disaster compared to what the number is of insurance claims paid. This is the comparison I would like to see.

Instead of seeing "how much fat" is in the taxpayers pocket, perhaps Govt should represent it's people more and see how much these corporations reap for doing nothing more than shuffling paper and avoiding the claims of flood victims whilst selling under insurance's.

Shadow Minister Most Defiantly, yes that is the word I wanted to use, I look at politics from a different point of view than you.
See good and bad in both sides.
You clutch at straws that are not there, in comparing any past Labor team to Abbott.
You say this year or else for Labor, I agree, but our FINEST ASSET IS ABBOTT.
Gillard right or wrong never quite made it, the gapping wound that Kevin Rudd left frozen inaction and wrong actions took us near to defeat, Abbott saved us, by the skin of our teeth.
The few, very few policy's your side have put up include that baby bonus rubbish, surely the equal of cash for clunkers and any sins you put on us.
Shadow I am far from the first to highlight your one tracked view of politics, I TRULY think you over estimate your ability's.
Abbott, in time you too will understand, rode to popularity on the back of complaining but not having answers.
And with policy's that massaged those who already intend to vote for him but force others to run away, it is easy to be a fire lighter but it takes leadership to win an election.

Unfortunately, nature made a mixture of different personalities in the people of the planet, some are intelligent, some are brilliant and some fall far below any of these. I fail to see that persons of different political parties vary in any way, in both parties are fanatics who image that any decision their party makes, is correct and any decision the other party makes is definetely stupid and wrong, that is why we have so many changes of parties at the elections, and the change is because the people realise the conditions of and in the country is not satisfactory. I would not vote for either or any of the parties and will be pleased when a party starts up with a good constitution which is the conscience of the party, and has the plans for successful future, and all members have to sign that they will honour and obey the terms of that constitution. The existing parties totally ignore the issues in their constitution, members do not even have to know the contents of them, they have no conscience and very little integrity and intelligence

Tony abbot and the libs should by all accounts be in power and dealing with this issue.

JG and labor were litterally flogged at the polls, it's just that she would not admit defeat and went to extrordinay lengths to be re-elected 'BY DEFAULT'!

As one poster has said, this is her year to deliver and, if she fails, I doubt I will see another debt ladend labor government in my life. Now that's something to look forward to.

Now as for the levie, I doubt it is so much a case of the people don't wish to contribute, more so I recon it's a case of they simply don't trust labor with thier money. After all, thier track record of spending our money sucks.

Flo>>You are wrong, people on low incomes can own homes.
What you are discribing is most likely less than 1% of home owners in the flood effected areas, and that's being generous. I, on the other hand are reffering to the remaining 99%.

It's a joke to suggest a threashold of $48K and an act of stupidity from an incompitant leader to simply double it overnight.

merv 09 your post says more about you than others.
I find your comment just under mine, an ALP member and activist, you seem not to have seen me say Gillard is a flop.
I have to stop taking that type of comment as worth while, some ideas are not worth the read.
Rechtub, cop it sweet bloke your mob are not in power did not win an election but may well do next time.
And be confronted with the negativity fed to Labor and its supporters, how very sad for the standard of debate.

By that token, the liberals finest asset was KRudd (control freak), followed by all of NSW Labor (the 40 thieves), Anna Blight, Julia Gillard (Queen of the BER rort), and Peter Garrot (beds are burning).

From my perspective the ALP is a collection of well intentioned clowns, who whilst believing passionately in their policies probably shouldn't be allowed to drive unsupervised.

I support neither side anymore SM, and there is no doubt that a distinct lack of talent exists on both sides.

I perceive the Coalition as worse because they appear to represent vested interests,
and their own self interest, beyond any wishes or plans for Australia's future.

The last Coalition Gov't did represent vested interests and led us to reduced freedom, un-necessary and costly involvement in political wars
and cut the consumer/employee adrift with changes to Trade and Employment practices acts.

And they pursue this ideologue stuff with a crazed and dogged zealotry reminiscent of the tea party movement in the U.S..

Mountains of emotive rhetorical palaver forever undermining any or all of our elected Alliance Govt's agenda whatever it may be. Using a now temporary Senate majority to thwart the progress of Govt at any opportunity as it did during the last Rudd Gov't.

It stinks on ice SM. No red nosed overblown Governor's General to exploit on this occasion.
What a shame.

My political memory is longer than that, with Workchoices still sticking in my craw,
among all the other things.

The petrol pricing madness we experience today (as one example) is a direct result of Coalition Trade practices policy SM.

Ethical restraints on profits were removed by edict. And policing any law that does exist,
is non existent , a toothless ACCC replacing the former body with hardly any chance of winning a case against cartelling or anti competitive conduct etc because of the law structure introduced by a fanatical, driven by foolish ideology; Howard Govt.

Can you comment ?.

Good morning Shadow Minister, I except your comment.
Except that it is as close to fair and balanced comment that I will ever get out of you.
It over looks much, but that is no surprise it seems unaware of the reforms of the Hawk/Kieting years, even your team agree that changed this country.
Not you fault, mine, see I ask too much look for balanced understanding from everyone.
Time for me to grow up ,understand it is a bridge too far for some.
Read the papers yet?
I have,quite concerned about the Sydney morning Heralds leaks on proposed East Timor refugee processing.
IF TRUE, it seems to be ,well cash for clunkers on top of Abbott's big new tax.
But while it is grist for your mill it IF TRUE concerns me.
Given your standard issue conservative views have you considered this? next time you govern this country will the war on working class those policy's proclaim further divide this country?
I think so.

Belly,

What this shows is that East Timor is a promise that Julia Gillard made to the Australian people that she has no intention of keeping. What was leaked was simply a thought bubble that has no consultation or real work attached to it. It has simply disappeared into the "too hard" basket.

Nauru was functioning under Howard.

I am not sure east Timor is the answer.
But far from sure SM it is as you say.
Nehru interests me, what went wrong there, we know the buildings are not habitable and need rebuilding.
But are other hidden things behind not using it, say face saving or costs we know nothing about?
If it was as you think all black and white, Labor always wrong your mob always right I doubt Labor would have won the last two elections.
You certainly can not hope to convince me your view is true, the crying wolf your side is fixed to is making it hard to regard any thing as fair dinkum .

Belly,

Your mindless bleating that because I am an ardent Liberal supporter and am thus biased and what I say cannot be true is pathetic. It is entirely possible to be biased and correct.

The issues I hammer Labor are genuine gold plated stuff ups that blind Freddy can see, and I back up my statements with facts and statistics.

Either you cannot refute my statements because they are correct (which is what I suspect) or you do not have the mental horse power to develop a cogent argument or rebuttal.

If what I say is incorrect, please show me where. School yard "Nah nah nah nah nah." only makes one look like an idiot.

If you have any concerns about the way Abbott is confrontational in the hung parliament, it is nothing compared the antics of Labor in 1940.

It is the job of Government to develop and implement policies, and for the opposition to expose their flaws and prevent wastage and misuse of funds. The opposition is in no position to develop detailed policy, as it has no control over the departments responsible, and policies made by the opposition today could be made redundant tomorrow by the government.

The correct thing for an opposition to do is develop a frame work defining policy goals, from which policies can be made if government changes hands.

And then theres just plain old carping and sledging Shadow Minister, just for the sake of it.
Even if someone from the Labor side in the 1940's was purportedly worse.

Doesn't make as much difference to me about the then as it does the now SM.

I'm not seeing any light on the hill, nor at the end of the tunnel,
on either side of politics, and that is a very concerning thing.

At least the Govt seems to have future vision with the NBN etc,
hopefully the independents will keep em honest and provide
accountability and value for money.

They should be given a go in a changed paradigm that we have all forgotten,
the new balance of power with Greens and Independents as part of the
decision making process.

So far I like it SM.

Shadow Minister Sir! I forgive you ,yes truly, your insults are like rain on an iron roof.
Comforting.
You charge me with your sins.
That bleating comment, rather wonderful coming from you.
In any debate is a sign of weakness , and inflicted pain.
Little man Abbott would be proud of you.
He/you/ we all must know understand, this confrontation stuff is now, unfortunately forever part of out country's politics.
I believe this, FIRMLY, my party like yours is not performing well.
It without leadership change, [a view not yet openly shared but there]it will have difficulty in being returned.
And NO TAUNTING YOU, I think our best asset is,,,, Abbott and those closed fixed minds like yours who have forgotten words are not enough policy's and working to lift public perceptions of politicians is better than this.
My regards, however know I am far from your only opponent here, your self confidence is sadly miss placed mate.

I feel the same repugnance for the politics of both sides...seems it's just a dud time for inspiration of the political kind in Australia of late.

...but I liked this little snippet that I came across last night.
Seems Mr Abbott has been emailing people for support - and a donation....not for the flood victims, but for the Liberal Party to fight the levy.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/02/3128336.htm

I think you are all forgeting the real issue here.

Tony Abbot has nothing to prove, Julia Gillar however has everything to prove.

It is very simple, if she fails, labor will go.

Remeber, polotics is not about who has the better chance of winning, it's about who has the better chance of loosing, as few elections are won, they are mostly lost.

Take the last election, labor lost a huge majority, only the loss was not quite large enough, thanks only to the lick, suck, grobble from our leader.

As usual, it's a race to the bottom.

"From my perspective the ALP is a collection of well intentioned clowns, who whilst believing passionately in their policies probably shouldn't be allowed to drive unsupervised."

Shadow Minister I do not generally waste my time answering comments such as yours. I do not believe these types of comments add to the quality of the debate. They tell me more about the intelligence of the writer.

They may be well intentioned clowns, that is in the eye of the beholder. My concern is that Mr.Abbott is not an well intentioned clown, but a clown he is.

"Either you cannot refute my statements because they are correct (which is what I suspect) or you do not have the mental horse power to develop a cogent argument or rebuttal."

What is the use of rebutting the statements of yours and others of a similar ilk. You either say that we are wrong, or ignore what is said and continue with your beliefs. Beliefs is only what you are promoting, because you believe, does not make it true.

As for Nauru, Mr. Howard set that up in his belief the refugees would be denied access to our courts. The High Court has declared this is not true, they have access to legal system. There is no longer any advantage to putting the refugees off shore. In my eyes, which is just a belief like yours, Mr. Abbott attempted to set up a cruel system that denied people their rights which was despicable.

What PM Gillard is attempting to do is set up an offshore camp under the auspices of the UN, entirely different concept.

Bravo Flo, well said. Your posts are always well-reasoned and logical.
I enjoy reading them.

Unfortunately Flo your assessment is incorrect.

The high court ruled that the northern Australian islands excised by Howard's legislation such Christmas Island could not exclude detainees from access to the courts. As Nauru was not being used at the time, it was not considered in the judgement.

The Australian courts only have jurisdiction over Australian territory. As Nauru is not Australian territory, the high court has no jurisdiction whatsoever, and here the detainees would have no access to the Australian, Canadian or any other courts than those of Nauru.

If you don't believe me look it up.

Shadow Minister:

The following website may help put things into perspective for you
about the "success" of the Pacific Solution and Nauru:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/pacific-solution-no-real-answer-20100917-15gb9.html

I found your link Lexi interesting, if we divert to that subject it will be a long thread.
That 60% who want Howard's policy's is a reality, wrong if you wish, but real.
I offer this story in todays Australian.
Just one , not all migrants but surely proof some one must look closer at who comes here.
An Australian born Indian girl, her mum and dad find much wrong with our culture.
She was not allowed to take part in it clothing, habits contacts.
long story but dad bashed her, tricked her in to returning to India to wed a man she never knew, so she could not wed the one she loved.
Threats included raping that young mans family, killing his parents.
60% NO MINORITY VIEW HERE.
Are we to be blinded to the refugee problem world wide, its impacts on the cultures of country's excepting them?
Your link asked this question how hard are we wiling to be?
It highlighted Howard plans cost us all $600.000 per person.
My answer is no of shore none, just get tough very tough, send them back take only those waiting in camps in their own region.
Fully aware my stand is not popular but it is in the interests of my country I stand by them.

Lexi,

For those that doubt the pacific solution worked, here are boat figures from the department of immigration:

Fin Year..Arrivals by boat
1999–00.. 4,175
2000–01.. 4,137
2001–02.. 3,039 - Pacific solution introduced.
2002–03.. -
2003–04.. 82
2004–05.. -
2005–06.. 61
2006–07.. 133
2007–08.. 25
2008–09.. 1,033 - Pacific solution removed.
2009–10.. 5,609
2010-11.. 3,392 ytd (end October)

Can anyone give a different explanation and still keep a straight face?

As for " Australia spent about a billion dollars processing 1637 boat people on Manus and Nauru. (Do the maths: it's a horrifying $600,000 per head.) The boats stopped coming, but it took five years to clear the islands" This was over several years.

The present cost of dealing with the boat refugees is about $3bn per year.

Howard's policy

Also caused the 2003-2010 drought

Correlation's fun!

Red neck mail again this morning, in part as a result of the confrontation for its own sake stand by shadows mob E Mails are infesting the Webb.
Spite, near hate and remote from under standing.
You, most , know that Australia is giving this much to other country's one.
Xenophobic too highlights our near neighbors.
And surely we know these e mails and such are sent like those unwanted phone messages to influence our votes/thoughts.
NSW ALP called it word of mouth in an attempt to recruit me to spread the word, rather like becoming an automatic fertilizer spreader.
A problem for our future and our country's future glows like a beacon here.
We are resorting to lies spin and our own brand of hatred and blindness.
Each of us, should try to avoid it,to look clearly at issues, see better ways to confront our foes in politics, maybe say so when they get it right.
Shadow Minister defends the $600.000 COST PER PERSON!
Australia, the western world, under John Winston Howard, Rudd, Gillard, gives to other country's.
The western world does, Abbott will/would.
Know it is in our country's interests to do so.
And know too a great deal is to stop spending that massive amount on just one arrival, and it stopped many.
Little man Tony and his like can look back at this and the last Parliament,and know we're poorer for confrontation without direction, my mob will follow this path too insulting us all.

Regardless, SM your Pacific Solution was offensive in terms of international law, it rendered Australia an international pariah, and was downright embarrassing to any fair minded Australian, if not digressive.

Today the Coalition is claiming that Timor can't handle the number of arrivals, nor could Naura or meet the requirements of the UNHCR let alone provide civilised detention.

Your statistics avoid, (or seek to conceal or under value), the push factors associated with asylum seekers and ignore that fact that multitudes more people seeking refugee status arrive by plane not boat. Thereby overblowing the problem of asylum seekers that arrive by boat, for nothing more than obvious self interested political goals.

Perhaps we could solve the whole, problem SM and bring back the White Australia policy?.

Thinker 2 I am more than aware your heart is good.
I even shared your views in part in the past.
Found Howard and some who departed his team after telling lies dreadful.
I am aware the Pacific solution harms our country internationally.
How much lower however can this country go?
IF we did stop aid, did turn boats back to die,we would be subject to trade bans that may cripple us.
Yet some here would do it at the drop of a hat,and still stalk other country's for human rights issues.
HOWEVER if we had leadership, and we do not,on both sides of the house we could craft a way of stopping the boats.
We should/must do that, why?
You will not like it but in truth the country has lost sight of statesman ship ideals and social concerns on both sides.
The ALP may yet be headed back to the opposition bench's, until Australia see,the true nature of the conservatives failed party.
I offer this to truly interested , this mornings Sydney Telegraph a well known conservative toilet roll of a larger than usual size has grabbed truth with both hands.
Some one may well be sacked for it, the political editor has a story about Tony Abbott [he also states the obvious about Gillard being a flop] we are lead by two who would be better in privet enterprise selling hot dogs from a stand in the footy grand stands.
I think just maybe my leader Mrs lemming, is headed for the polls with a silly idea about a health reform bill that is just as impressive as cash for clunkers.
oh,we will stop the boats give the same thought same concern for those who never get here because they wait until we ask.

Thinker2

Firstly the pacific solution actually did comply with international law.

Secondly, it did not even register on the consciousness of 99.9% of the world population, so the pariah status is wishful thinking on your part, and

Finally, according to you 80% of Australians are not fair thinking.

Shadow Minister,

Yes, I believe it was seen by certain echelons within the establishment as a wonderful innovation.
"Pacific Solution" has a certain ring to it, don't you think? It conjures up thoughts of another "solution" put into practice not so long ago.
One thing is for certain, is that whoever coined the term was seeking to remove the element of humanity from the psychological equation.

I have no doubt, big statement, that a majority of Australians want an end to the boats.
I BELIEVE IT.
but 80% never.

To nights TV show a current affair had tomorrows headlines.
I regret the interview was one channel, not a new conference.
Confronted with film of him making light of an Australian solders death in Afghanistan.
Abbott lost it for a few seconds, his bottom jaw went up and down,but he said nothing.
It stunned me, I thought for a second this man has a health issue.
In the politics we have today much will be made of this, it is there for us to see.
Not unlike Tony to say things he should not,and not unlike him to try to be popular with the one he is with.
But the impacts are likely to be huge.
I will revisit news headlines in a few hours.

Belly:

I watched the TV news as well this evening - and I could have got it wrong - but I think in all fairness that Abbott's comment "Sh..
happens," was simply a bad choice of words. I don't believe that it was meant or intended in the way the news reporter tried to make mileage out of it. Had Abbott said -"It's tragic, but these things happen," it may not even have been reported. Storm in a teacup.

The comment is one thing, the reaction is another Lexi.

I would have too declare myself at this point, most definitely not an Abbott fan.
At this time we are seeing an Abbott without power , can you imagine the same
Tony abbott with power? .

I also watched the news with Mark Riley's interview of TA and the specific quote, which in itself was perhaps a Freudian slip. The stunning part was TA's refusal to respond to Riley's follow up, and like one other poster, I thought that he suddenly had developed a terrible affliction. Apparently, Abbott had several hours notice of the interview and questions. It wasn't that Riley sprung at him from behind a bush or tree. One would have believed that the man, a possible future Prime Minister, would have taken some time to prepare himself for such a leading question. But no, Abbott stood there like a dumbfounded kid not knowing that he was caught with his hands in the cookie jar. Sorry, but in my opinion that man is far from being capable of leading our country, despite the miserable performance from Julia Gillard and her team. The above and the attempted collection to fund a campaign against the flood levy has undoubtedly thrown my support toward the current government, in the hope that with time they may find their feet and shake of the BER and Pink Bat episodes.

Yes so out standing was the 30 second wait,the jaw dropping and raising out of control I thought this poor bugger has Parkinson's, he yet may have.
Lets look deeper, I dislike Tony, yet understand he is a sporty type Aussie, admire that part of the bloke.
He is not unlike any of us, Aussie males do talk like that in company.
HE WAS TRYING to put that soldier at ease.
He never intended to make light of a dead soldier.
Should he stop talking like that, yes, should we condemn him for this no.
But know this,I think he is as false as a movie set,he uses such words to be an Aussie bloke, not any other reason.
Remember this man is no fake Christian, he is full on, he manufactures every single day his own image.
Now we saw Tony Abbott the real one, in that pause Tony's words are made for him, some times not by him, like all leaders , but the real Tony was in that few seconds exposed.
My party knows he is one slip away from ending his leadership roll, but ignores tomorrows truth today, Julia Gillard rides on his shoulders if Turnbull took over today we would trail in all polls and the big one? not a chance for us.

Belly, you are obviously a staunch Labor supporter and you must wish that TA stays where he is, as leader of the opposition. Simply, as such he is a wonderful Labor supporter himself. That no one within the coalition has realised it speaks volumes for their intelligence. With due respect, there is probably no other alternative leader but to bring back Turnbull. That would upset Hockey, Bishop and Dutton which is out of the question. Drawing conclusions from the current state of affairs within the coalition, I am almost certain that Labor is rather safe to govern a full term or two. They would need to be very careful with their development of policies and select only those pledged during the elections and perhaps the establishment of a disaster fund. Today’s defeats during two votes in Canberra is not the end of the World but augers badly in the eyes of the general public.
I had another look at the Abbott/Riley interview, and I am almost certain that Abbott was ready to punch the daylights out of Riley. I give him credit for controlling himself but still believe that he should never become Prime Minister.

I've read that description in quite a few commentaries - that it appeared Mr Abbott was sizing up the option of punching Riley's lights out. Yes, it is terrific that Tony decided against it and "controlled" himself, however, one has to ask why he wasn't prepared a little better - he had warning of the interview.
Ambush or no ambush, a polly with his experience can't really get away with a 24 second stare of silence.

Barry Cassidy compares the fates of Julia and Tony in this article:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/09/3134481.htm

Poirot thanks for the link found it very good.
Yes Friend I am Labor very much so ,but mark my words unless we see the Julia Gillard we saw in question time today we are on the way out.
Turnbull need not worry about Julie her head has been on the block for while.
She however hastens it by being very much right the Howard plan for helping Indonesia should stay.
In fact while Bill Shorten would be a much better leader, will be soon, Rudd is out most out standing attack dog.

Hi Belly,

I'm convinced there is no alternative to Malcolm Turnbull for the Liberal leadership if they are to have any chance of taking power at the next election.
Abbott should have been able to take advantage of Gillard Labor's poor performance since the last election, yet the opposition is as much or more on the nose than the government.
I imagine Turnbull will wait until we're a bit closer to an election (say 12 to 10 months out) and make his move.

Gday Poirot yes me too, but we face a crisis right now.
That bill, strange stuff,spending 300 million on students, passed the senate IT A TIME ABBOTT SAYS CUT the budget?
And if it gets through the lower house Abbott takes the government.
After we take on the roll of spoilers and Australian politics become worse for it.
Devision is becoming entrenched.
However it lives within the beating heart of conservatives and may implode .
We live in interesting times IF such events put Abbott in charge he would prove to be very bad.
Have no fear he will be gone soon.

Hi, and thanks for link Poirot. I also enjoyed it.

The Abbott reaction was okay only because he doesn't have power.

It struck me that if he was PM he would have had Riley, clasped in irons after being taken away by a goon squad,
the camera and it's contents confiscated and destroyed.

All that rage did seem to be possibly manifesting itself in a left hook by the mad monk,
but he contained himself to having his own personal eruption, punctuated by 24 secs of silence.
He must have calmed himself by saying to himself, wait till I'm PM , I'll fix you then.

I would worry that once in power Tony Abbott and Co would make themselves hard to get rid of, a la Joh Bjelke.
Maintaining their power base with pork barreling and electoral adjustments.
Tony plays dirty, his team plays dirty, and Australian Politics has gone downhill.

As for the Gov't , we have seen today that Independents Katter and Crook are prepared to vote in favour of the levy.
Is it possible that these two Independents could drift to Govt and strengthen the Alliance Govt.

Remember this is not a Labor Gov't but an Alliance of Labor, Greens and Independents.
If Pollsters asked the voters who they would rather have, "Abbott and Co or the Gov't we elected," I wonder what the result would be? .

I admit to liking the idea that Independents and Greens are a part of the decision making process, not just either of the major parties.

I'm guessing/hoping that a lot of other people like this idea as well.

The question I still ask after Mr. Abbott's Petit-mal like response, what is in the video that he is so afraid of? Nothing occurred from the beginning of the interview to explain his response. He was shown the video and asked to explain what he meant. He immediately went on the defence. Why? He was not ambushed. The video's were taken by the Army to be distributed to the media. It was not a private conversation.

Flo Tony was struck by an awful truth,for a few seconds we saw the real him.
I commend this as worth reading.
Find Goggle news select a story from the Sydney morning Herald from 5 nearly 6 hours ago.
Those who do, may soon share my view, both leaders are well on the way out.
Julia has proved a flop, I never trusted her,said so, but expected her to govern well,she has not.
She looked good to great this week, Rudd looked better,we should have given Rudd a very firm ultimatum but kept him, until he broke it.
Now? Bill Shorten and now!
Abbott is not the leader Labors mistakes has made him look, Joe Hockey could have been, Turnbull now is.
Conservative should watch closely, their party's behavior is to stampede the voters, run wild over democracy support nothing .
In government instant betrayal will/would result,, must take place the group tax us more in government than others, move to spend 300 million dollars while telling us to cut?
Howard scheme ? cut that too! not true Tony Abbott is saying things he CAN NOT DO IF IN GOVERNMENT.
Australia is better served by no independents , not if they are in control, look at the silly little man from family first, seemingly the IQ of a Queensland Blue pumpkin.
I want and believe most of us know it now or not, better leader ship from both party's, an election with lots more new candidates, and if a way can be found a double election of both houses and an end to dealing in local areas and return to nations interest first.
Watch Tony and Julia their sun is setting , a better time is coming.

I don't think the Govt has had time to do anything, and as you say Belly, all Abbott has done is tell us what he wouldn't do. Tony Windsor in my book, is proving himself the most intelligent and trustworthy of the Govt's members, and he is not even a member of the Labor Party.

If you're looking for a PM by proxy, look at TW. He is much closer now to power than someone like Tony Abbott will ever be. His view is critical to the Govt. He is closely followed by Andrew Wilke in Tas in terms of influence. I would be willing to suggest that these two independents have more popularity and electoral influence than any other politicians in our Parliament currently.

And deservedly so, for both are conviction politicians. I like that

We share some ideas thinker2 however not opinions of the Tasmanian ex green.
Windsor is as you say and as I said in his defense after bias and baiting here.
Starting to be concerned, not with drawing support yet, with Rob Oakshot.
He is the same bloke but a bit of a Shane Warne,would run a mile to get in front of a TV camera.
Sorry but my reality says if Labor lost the next election they and your greens would fill the opposition benches for a very long time, I feel greens policy's are unacceptable for most voters.
And want my party to hold the fort, not cede control to minority's views.

But Oakeshot is sort of wholesome as well. And the beards sort of an intellectual touch,
don't you think.

Anyway the problem for both sides is Belly, who would succeed either of the major parties leaders.
It's hard to find a candidate. Both of the current leaders fail to inspire.

Only time will tell.

I might be seeing what I want to see but I would not give up on PM Gillard yet.

It is early days and the lady did not get where she is by having the PMship handed to her on a platter, silver or otherwise.

I feel many of the media reports on her demise are merely wishful thinking, not based on fact.

PM Gillard did fire in parliament this week. So did all her ministers. They appeared to have regained some fire in their bellies

Flo/thinker 2 I would need to go much deeper to tell why I think Julia never should have been put in the job.
I will not do so here.
But she lifted her game,with an effort to do just that,in the last two weeks.
Her wet checks in all probability are real, but looked wooden, it is her nature.
She every second battles to look natural, and fails.
Coming from the left of my party todays Julia would be anything if required to stay in power.
She will, as I said on day one be knifed in the back, for the sake of the ALP.
Now thinker 2 read here in OLO the post history of Bill Shorten read too his parliamentary speech's, then find his greatness as National head of the AWU Australian Workers Union read his speech's read too his equally great replacements words Paul Howes.
Labor produces great men, we need only guts.
Abbott? If in private I was talking to some within his party they would agree,he has run away from the near victory they and I know my statement above is true,he is committing to things he can not/ never will deliver.
I have more on Gillard next post but we are going to see leadership change on both sides

Julia Gillard is not riding on the back of a Rudd like popularity wave.
At a time mud and some lost acts of its own has the ALP low in the polls it is Tony Abbott's back she rides on.
His unpopularity is Gillards rocky seat, for now.
She was welded at the hip to Mark Latham, Simon Crean, she still trys to put that rather stupid Hunter member who took Chinas gifts back on the front bench, he above all was a Latham clone/drone.
My party needs far better,next month the slide to most states,the roots of the ALP being in other hands.
We should have dominated Rudd, he did it to us,it is our heritage to confront bad bosses.
He was on the wrong trail but better than this,I ASK this, as we continue to not stick with policy's was Gillard in his Cabernet just as bad at being gutless?
However this tent has had enough repairs it looks like a bag of rags,just waiting to be what we thought Rudd was/could have been is Bill Shorten.
I feel Australia wants an end to hung Parliaments fighting over nothing devision rather than unity.
This big world confronts us all,we could by chance or as is written be at war next year and we fight like bad school kids in Parliament for what?
Read the form, see the storys behind the news do not be surprised this time,, it is on leadership change .

Belly what is more worrying, a wooden demeanour or an angry and aggressive one.
There is nothing for Labor to gain in knifing as you say PM Gillard at this time. It would mean years in Opposition, and I believe that the one thing that Labor members share is a healthy self preservation mechanism, including Mr. Rudd.
I do not believe that Mr. Shorten will be the next Labor leader. There are many more worthier in the Labor team. If he is promoting himself, as some media rumours seem to be implying he needs severe censure.

Flo,

I personally don't know that much about Bill Shorten. But I would just like to bring it to your attention that not all "worthy" and long serving politicians are leadership material. Many politicians are good at being part of a team - when you think about it, most are like that and only a handful shine with leadership promise.
When Bob Hawke parachuted into the picture, it could have been said that there were many in Labor's shadow ministry who were worthy and long serving who should have been allowed a crack at the leadership - not the least of those being Bill Hayden....yet, we knew without a doubt that Hawke was the one.
It was for this same reason that Malcolm Turnbull rose rapidly through the ranks to briefly take the Liberal leadership (watch this space).
Tony Abbott doesn't shine with the same sort of quality, and only achieved his present status because Costello decided to jump ship.
Unfortunately, under Howard's watch, there was very little thought as to a successor other than Costello - when he went, the dearth of leadership talent was obvious.

What is certainly true, is that behind every good PM is a good treasurer/deputy/thinker if you like, as was the case with Hawke/Keating, Howard /Costello and so on.

This doesn't have the same electoral appeal today with Gillard/Swan or Abbott/Hockey as the alternative choices. Although you would have to say, that Swan for the most part has been a good treasurer. His tenure has endured the GFC and now the floods/disasters etc are his next challenge. It's not all doom and gloom as portrayed by the opposition harpies.

Tony Windsor on Insiders this morning referred to the parliament, not the Gov't as the place where the action is. He also predicted that this Parliament would go the full term. He also mentioned progress made on the NBN and climate change, calling them the big issues.
I felt re-assured by this, despite Andrew Bolt's assessment that Tony had warmed to Tony.
Tony Abbott is intent on wrecking the NBN and is a climate change sceptic. I don't see any commonality between Abbott and Windsor there.

Flo, I too see Labor in opposition should they execute Gillard at this point.
And Belly I don't think Shorten is the messiah

Poirot, I was not thinking of the old brigade, I was thinking of some who came into parliament in the last four years, Mr Combet for one.

Flo,

Fair enough :)

Flo I am unaware if you are a green my other two companions here are.
As is the case with you, I have opinions.
But my predictions are not opinions, do any of us base a prediction on our personal opinions?
Can any green care about who leads Labor.
Bill Shorten is no blow in he has been called the Prime Minister in waiting for a decade maybe more, thinker 2 make your self aware of him before discounting him.
Flo Your pro Gillard comment is acceptable to me, I disagree, unfortunately I do so based on understanding and concern for my party.
Others,too many others,who should be Labor voters , just will not vote for her, some of those are hiding in the greens tents.
I make this challenge, tell us here,each of my 3 companions, how wrong I am,tell me who you think will lead each party at Christmas 2011?
Remember the part played by Bill Shorten and Paul Howes in[ for the benefit of the ALP] removing Rudd.
Understand the thought of my party EVER censuring Shorten is zero, he is the leader we are waiting for.

I am aware of Shorten and have been for some time Belly and I too like Flo see Combet as a better bet for the future among the Union talent coming through.

I'm not Green till I vote that way Belly, I would most accurately describe myself as dis-affected Labor voter, if the truth be known.

But Abbott, would be a disaster as PM, there is know doubt about that Belly

No, I am not a Green voter. I have voted Labor for most of my life. I sadly admit for a couple of years I voted DLP till I opened my eyes. I was during my working life active in the union movement.
I am among the very few that does not believe Labor has lost its way, policy wise. Since the days of Hawke and possibly before that, Labor has had the gumption to do what is right for the country. This has confused many older Labor voters. Labor is the one party, I believe that is not blinded by ideology.
What Labor has lost is it ability to get its message across by word of mouth. In the past, this was done through unions in the manufacturing and construction industries through the union movement. Modern day lifestyle does not lead to people belonging to groups or the party. Some of this is Labor's fault when in the 90's they stopped listening to the grass-root members and seen them only good for passing out how to vote cards.
In the past, the ability to get the message out worked also in reverse, members were able to give feedback on policies. This was a better system than the focus groups, also much cheaper.
Labor has to find a way to once again have personal relationships with those who support them. Otherwise the present situation will continue, where the supporters are getting all their information through the MSM

"Understand the thought of my party EVER censuring Shorten is zero, he is the leader we are waiting for"

Sorry belly he is not the leader I am waiting for. I believe what you say is true, that he assisted to get PM Gillard into power. If your comments are true, he only did this for his own advantage. Sorry Belly, I expected leaders to have some loyalty to the party and it's members.

Flo then you and I share a great deal.
65 nearly 66 years of age I only ever voted ALP, until next month.
I came from union back ground to be an official, while retired am union till death.
I too am not unhappy with Labors direction .
BUT never defend our wrongs! never except failures that betray our history.
Rudd /Gillard let us down badly.
We if they did not dump policy's change directions and run in fear at the 24 hours news cycle be in government on our own now.
Had a trading scheme for carbon, much more.
We owe it to our party to remember these things.
We too must understand some,will never again vote for us, ever,because we did not keep our promises.
Flo it is not you and me who will return us in an election.
We MUST win back those we drove away.
If you serve the party, I do, serve it totally, NEVER EXCEPT FAILURE.
You have slanted views on Shorten, as a leader in my faction the right, he is subject to slanders from the very left.
He unlike Gillard will never switch his faction.
The truth is I know events will put him in charge Gillard is better than Abbott but she CAN NEVER WIN AN ELECTION.
She has won a victory over night an historic one, but she had to be flogged on to her feet after knowing the party was unhappy.
Tell me, in two years, how wrong I was about Bill Shorten, but look closely at our polling tell me we should change nothing.
Party first? yes, very much so and if the direction is down hill?
No crime in wanting better.

Everywhere I go there is evidence of new roads being built. Many of our roads are being upgraded.
What iYes we should change plenty but I do believe the parties basic policy still worthwhile.
The government must have the courage to ignore the polls and concentrate on what is the right thing to do.
The party must find its way back to its grass-roots, this is imperative but will be difficult to do. The last thing that Labor needs at this time is a show pony.
Some in the Labor Party did not make PM Gillard's task any easier.
The Opposition with its negativity has created the belief that Labor, both Federal and State are hopeless. The facts when examined closely do not support this.
I live in NSW, where Labor is highly on the nose. It is easy to say that health, transport and education among other things is bad. My experience of dealing with hospitals, among the worse on the Central Coast has been exceptionally good.s a health problem where I live is the number of doctors who bulk bill, and provide a service out of hours. It is annoying to have to make an appointment days ahead to see a gp. The cause of this situation is more the actions of the Howard government than Labor. I have had my teeth attended to with no waiting time. I have had to wait three months for a new denture, only because I have a cleft palate and the private dentist was reluctant to make one.
My experience with schools through my grandchildren amazes me with the standard of teaching they receive.
Yes the new trains have yet to appear, but they run mostly on time and cleaner than in the past. What is important for me is the number of stations that now have elevator access to the stations. There is massive upgrading of stations all along the south west line. My gripe is with the private buses I have to rely on.
The state still has it high triple A endorsement.
continued

continued
I am not saying the state is perfect, but what I am saying things are not as bad as they are pictured by the MSM and Opposition.
I believe the community benefits from a change of government and new ideas. I do have problems finding any evidence that the present Opposition will do any better.
What I have written is only my opinion, and I acknowledge there is much more to be done.
By the way I am a little older.

Flo, much of what I say must be muffled.
Some of what I want to say I must not be said.
I do not wish to damage my movement with truth.
I would still be a working trade union official, IF I had not put my party, union and above all members first.
Last ALP state conference my heedless leader and his entourage left conference without voting, I got help from a future leader in my union, made sure we voted as is legal for them.
I had 22 years as union delegate and some of those years team leader too on the DMR/RTA.
I watched 238 workers shrink to about 39, as contractors took the jobs.
Flo I watched second grade RTA Engineers take VR then turn up in private enterprise road construction jobs,become abject failures.
Then after VR? return to safe havens in?THE RTA on contract.
Flo contracts have been given to ex RTA bosses to? take out door workers jobs.
RTA workers some are totally beaten down are on the way out, not allowed to do their jobs.
Some have not had one day off in years,some serve as long as 45 years.
I knew my members wanted me to be brave, to say the things they could not, I said them.
My boss, how that man needs to know his ego is the tool that will remove him next election!
Rang me, his union official, the one ministers would not talk to, every minister only talks to the leadership.
He supported the lost totally not respected RTA boss over me and my members
And I gave him the proud Aussie workers dream, he is not fit to wipe the boots of my members the minister would not know they exist.
Flo they have a flogging coming, they earn it, need it my party and yours will grow again.
It would be silly to prop up one enemy in fear of another my true respect and regards.

So Belly,

At last it is revealed, the reason you are prepared to criticise your own party, is because you personally were shafted, and are harbouring sour grapes, not an open unbiased mind.

Shadow the events here took place this year.
My views about my party in NSW have been on display for 3 years here.
You read one of about thirty reasons my party can only be served by its impending thrashing.
It will be,and by its own people too,we do not leave our party it left us long ago.
We do not put your side in because they are better,we know very little about them.
I know mid term,I will be confronted with my deeds in voting for them.
But even if I betray myself, not by not voting Labor but by voting greens I know I act for my party.
You and I are not alike, this pleases me, you never ever contribute words against your party,EVER.
I do question who you are,but not your balance,you have none.
I say this, you let your side down,failing to find room for improvement,you seem unable to debate with me.
But your insults are patently untrue I think you like Abbott would say or do anything ,even if you did not believe it, but bog your own cause in waters you constantly keep mudding.
No my actions are for my party because it once was and will be again far better than it is today.
SM you can never have my respect,you however have my sympathy forever, to have such a closed mind is not pleasant.

In my unanswered last post I rebut a claim from Shadow Minister.
I still do strongly.
However some thing I said is not quite true, I left my job in October,mid morning, because I felt and feel still that branch of my union is badly lead.
My contempt for my party NSW ALP is strong, my support in rebuilding it will be as strong.
In debate/conversation/ surely what we say if it turns out to be wrong should be answered?
Shadow Minister I think you need to except you ran away from answering me.

Belly,

Since you say the same things about me just about every post, I feel I am talking to a brick wall.

Some things I have said previously that possibly you haven't picked up on:
I support gay marriage, gay adoption, ethics classes etc, that the liberals don't.
I oppose internet censorship, and forms of government intervention to make us safe that infringe on individual freedoms.
I prefer Malcolm Turnbull as a statesman and a future PM over Abbott, as he is more measure than TA and does not suffer from foot in mouth syndrom.

However, the tabor megaphones on the site are so quick to announce and magnify any misstep by the coalition, that my disquiets over small issues seem irrelevant.

As far as the political realities go, Tony Abbott is by far the best opposition leader as he has exposed and brought the many failings of Labor policy and their incompetent implementation to the fore front of the Australian consciousness. This effectiveness is probably the cause of the visceral hatred of him by Labor supporters.

A party that is relatively newly in opposition is not going to upset the apple cart merely by presenting an alternative government that differs marginally in policy, and that is the mistake that Nelson and Turnbull made.

Just remember while I see many Labor tragics saying, that there is no way TA could lead the country, I remember the same being said about Barry O'Farrell a few years ago. TA has used the hung parliament to ramp up his campaign. Just look at the trends and tell me where you think we will be in a year from now.

http://assets.coredata.com.au/j/ttsvr-0.2/newspollWidget.html

Shadow Minister I thank you for that post, it avoided your claim about me but was of use.
Some of what you said there is the first time you put something like that in print.
I actually thought I in your post history you told us a different view of Turnbull.
I as you do, claim my thoughts are honest opinions, sorry but I find it impossible to even consider much of yours are balanced
Now lets not get carried away,surely you understand our Barry is not winning this election, not even near it, LABOR IS THROWING IT AWAY
By its actions over 5 years.
A teddy bear old tattered and torn could, will win this election.
My prediction?
Unless Gillard is gone a hard fight to even get close ,but if Abbott leads your team we are a chance.
12 months from now new leadership for both party's new directions for both bank on it Abbott rides on the sharpest most dangerous of knives his own mouth.
PS Barry the bear has almost certainly driven me and thousands more away with child like statements, sorry I just have to vote greens he owned my vote but used it to flog me,silly man.

Belly,

If you follow my posts I have said all this before.

With regards Tony Abbott referring to the chart I sent, the proof is in the pudding.

TA is very smart, he is playing this game like chess. For example, the opposition to the flood levy was more about pinning the tag of "tax and spend" on the Labor machine. Labor fought this on the emotive front, and while just squeaking through on support for the bill lost popular support. (winning the battle but losing the war). The consequences of this is that Julia starts on the back foot for the next battle which is the mining tax.

The NBN is going to be represented as an extension of the BER, and Julia in shielding it from a cost benefit analysis is going to suffer the same fate as Keneally with the power sell off.

In war there is an old saying that "if you can't win, make your opponent lose."

As for your views I see blind allegiance to the Labor / union cause. While you have grumbles with the party, you are 100% focused against the coalition.

Good afternoon Comrades, did you bring the lad along Shadow Minister ,sounds like you.
I have been caught with my pance down,Socialist!
All ways good for a laugh you two.
I do love easy targets,those who truly can not think out side a set set of rules I never ever need to slag you off SM,your words,in fact you do it better than I ever could, my bet is Christopher Pyne, is the young bloke yours?

Julia Gillard has even begun to govern yet in a parliament with many considerations, inc a precarious balance, and only 6 mths young.
Even your handle is premature JGHF.

What do you really believe other than your handle.?

Are you Robin, to SM's Batman.? A sturdy sidekick for SM's postulations.?

Good morning thinker 2 we can both do better than respond to such trash talk I intend to.
Hope you too come to under stand its for the best.
It has killed this thread, may kill many more but I will continue to meet SM on the courts of verbal tennis, at my age I can not let victory's pass.

Sorry for JGHF, but he/she is your version of Captain "courageous" that I had to deal with.

I try mostly to tackle the issues not the people.

Your right Belly, It's just that I worry about people who drop the socialist word every second sentence, especially when being derogatory. It is indicative of the extreme right to use such terminology.

SM you don't discuss issues, you exagerate them or invent them.

The other dirty word mentioned today by the socialists themselves is multi-culturalism. What do you think about that one JGHF.

And the view I put forward about Gillards tenure is that 6 mths young in Govt does not make a term. Of course any Govt should a least be able to serve one term before we judge. It would be impossible to conduct an economy with elections every 6 mths, wouldn't it?.

Try being the person you claim to be, by addressing an issue SM.
Before people just stop participating with you party political thread killing and character assasinations.

This thread is now stone dead as Belly says.

It may get to the point where you and JGHF will just be talking amongst yourselves.

Thinker2,

For some one criticising others, your posts are devoid of anything other than your opinions. When discussing an issue it is useful to include references to statistics, reports etc.

Your inability to do so is in stark contrast to your thread ID, to which you obviously aspire.

The thread is dead,no intention however to again let you SM claim knowledge understanding and balance.
You have little, in truth your insults to thinker 2 are quite wrong, but could well be said about you.
See you in another thread but am not expecting you to ever understand others view points, may I ask are you Christopher Pyne?

Belly, for someone that is so wildly biased to the ALP that comment is pretty much the pot calling the kettle black.

You got me!
Took the bait!
But can anything you say.
Any thing, be seen as intelligent comment.
Show me mate, just one thread.
Only one, even one post.
In any thread,that saw you hold your team accountable.
No sniping, no taunting, no way around it.
I just must say, in that statement, used so often by you.
You win FOREVER MY POINT, you mate must understand, if I wrote such untruths about you I would be
lieing
or uniformed
or taunting you.
I do not think you knowingly lie.
NEVER AGAIN can I give any value to your words.

Agreed SM in future I will endeavoured to source and provide links for my propositions.
Thinker2

thinker 2 do you truly think you should, how many links has SM put up?
Politics is a sad beast in Australia today.
Both sides are a disappointment to me.
If however Shadow Ministers charges against me are even in part true, I should never show my face on any forum again.
I find it hard,to not hold the views I state about him, surely honestly, no one has less reason to say I am biased than he?
Early start long drive but the papers this morning highlight the end of Abbott is not years away.
Gillard too, just maybe a rebirth of civility in Australian Politics will follow.