Gradualism and progressive are two terms that can be applied equally to Left and Right politics. Free market politics and deregulation were both labelled categorically as 'progressive' reforms.

It is all about extremes - that is where your concerns should lie. The current Tea Party Conservatives are probably hoping 'gradualism' will come into play to serve their own agenda. It appears to be working in the US where clever mind game politics are played which even see discussions about public health care (access for the poor) labelled as a communist plot. At least the tea party lot do provide some light entertainment from time to time (alas if it wasn't so serious).

The ability of Conservatives to spin the truth towards big business vested interests knows no bounds and I hate to disappoint you Al but many in your camp are also against Free Trade in it's purest form - they are only interested in establishing free trade agreements that work in their own interests with complete disregard to any other nation's sovereignty or domestic regulation and laws (those that affect their commercial vested interests in that nation including ridiculous notions of commercial compensation).

How you can abide that while your head is underground chasing Fabian socialists really eludes me.

Dear Pericles... you are the master of understatment arn't u ?

Recharacterizing all the symbolism of the Fabian Window in 'tame' terms is a skill you have employed on a range of arguments.

No problemo.. that's what we are here for.. different perpectives.

But I think, given that the formation of the Fabians was specifically to disseminate socialism to the world..and remould it's economony and social structure along socialist paradigms should be sufficient to alert you as to what's going on. Looking at the various schools of 'social research' they have founded and funded....it becomes pretty clear to all but the most blinkered among us...oops..is that you hand raised up high there ?

PELLY...you say:

//The ability of Conservatives to spin the truth towards big business vested interests knows no bounds and I hate to disappoint you Al but many in your camp are also against Free Trade in it's purest form//

I fail to see why you would be dissappointing me about the motivation of some high flyers in the capitalist world mate... look at ME (Gore) and STRONG! and many others.

Remember.....my mind lives *here* "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23....

I have not the slightest doubt that 'big' cappo's will try to 'caret-ize or monopolize the markets they do business in. So.. we need a degree of regulation and transparency...obviously.

You'll notice Pelly that 'Big' Labor and 'Big' business are the same horse with different jockeys.

As I was driving passed our local 'sex megamart' on Canterbuy road tonight, with my Mrs and one of her co-workers...I was rambling a bit about history...and noted that in 1960 it would be beyond unthinkable to even imagine such a thing! But now? *everywhere* and it all happened as a result of the topic of this thread.

BLUE! calling me names now ? :) *complicated*... I'll agree with you there actually...nothing simple about me.

Then you say:

//The western culture is not under any immediate threat as far as I can see //
WHAT THE ? BLUE..the fact that you can't see it is testimony to how effective the 'gradualism' has been... it carried you right along with it and.. *voila*.."what threat" you say.

See previous post about the sex shop.

Yes ALGORE, Western society has changed since
the 1950s. No longer is sex a taboo subject to
be hidden away and thought about as dirty. Most
of us no longer worry about Reds under our beds,
let alone in them.

Contraception is now freely available, and women
now have careers beyond domestic servitude and motherhood.
Homosexuals no longer live in fear of exposure and/or
arrest. Pubs remain open after 6pm and women are even
allowed in them. Aborigines are now counted in the Census
and even have Land Rights.

Publications like "Howl", "Lady Chatterley's Lover"
and "Tropic of Cancer" are freely available, probably
even in your local council library. When we go out for
dinner we can choose from Italian, Greek, Chinese, African,
Moroccan, Thai, Vietnamese, Indian, Mexican, Spanish etc cuisine.

You can even buy decent coffee just about anywhere in Australia.

Most of us think that these are socially progressive
changes, rather than some kind of dire socialist plot.
It's only a tiny minority who are locked in a white bread
'Leave it to Beaver' time warp. They must be desperately
unhappy with the real world.

Al....Not all is black and white..............and you dam well know it....Just have a good Christmas..and be done with it.

All the best.

BLUE

Al, I agree that intolerance is a difficult word. Should one tolerate intolerance and is that in itself intolerant. :)

However, gradualism can work in positive ways as I mentioned in another thread on morality eg. the abandonment of slavery and 'witch' burnings. All once considered morally just when really it served only a selfish purpose.

I am also worried about the gradualism that led to supposed 'reforms' about globalisation, deregulation (in some areas) and threats to national sovereignty in an uneven playing field. The GFC is a good example of what can happen with gradualism and this applies to both sides of politics.

Gradualism like many things depend on one's point of view and how important one values what is changing ie. is it a good or a bad thing in their opinion.