This is not about whether CO2 causes warming or not.
It however now seems as though the question may no longer be relevant.
The projections of the IPCC for fossil fuel use in coming years has
been shown to be inaccurate and too high.
This URL is a reference to a paper by Prof Kjell Aleklett and others
at Upsalla University.

http://www.tsl.uu.se/uhdsg/Publications/IPCC_article.pdf

It is 26 pages and a slow read.
This is an easier read,

http://tinyurl.com/yhqn2pv

A google search finds similar articles going back over this year yet
it appears that government just does not know about it or does not
want to examine possibilities. Is it like the pink batts and the NBN
and they are hell bent on their path and cannot change ?

However the implications are very
great from the political and financial aspects.
The question it immediately raises is whether the carbon tax planning
that our government is intending to implement next year, should be
abandoned and the whole subject be reviewed.

There is another later article that I have seen by Prof Aleklett
that I have seen but I cannot find it again.
It was produced after the IEA 2010 Outlook was published and refered
to the revision of the date of peak oil to 2006.
It plotted the IPCC scenarios against the now real world values for
fossil fuel usage.

<< This is not about whether CO2 causes warming or not. It however now seems as though the question may no longer be relevant. >>

Bazz, I’d argue that this question of whether or not anthropogenic CO2 emissions are leading to significant climate change should definitely not be relevant.

We should simply be proceeding as if AGW was feared to be highly significant, regardless of whether it is or not.

We need to wind back liquid fossil fuel use and develop alternative energy sources so that we may smoothly transition out of the age of oil, and not suffer a huge peak oil crash.

We just need to wind back the global impact of humanity, end of story.

It’s time to head directly towards a stable population and then allow gentle population decline for a century or two. Winding back some of our per-capita excesses on the developed world is also extremely important if we are to live sustainably, planetwide.

On the other hand, if the message that AGW is nothing to worry about and oil reserves are much bigger than previously thought prevails, we’ll just plough on with business as usual, taking ourselves further and further out of balance with the global environment and our resource base, and causing the whole caboodle to come unstuck, big-time, before too long.

I just wish that we could get past this whole climate change debate and concentrate on the whole sustainability picture instead.

Some people who study systems, such as economic systems or indeed
civilisation systems believe that complex systems have a built in
weakness, in that when something fundamental fails they can collapse
in a catastrophic manner.

I can't think of anything more fundamental than energy.
So to my tiny mind this what we should be working hard at.
If we can construct, while we still have the money and other resources,
enough generating capacity to convert our energy systems to an
electrically based economy just in time to avoid the loss of coal and
oil systems we might survive comfortably.

It will as you say be to no avail unless we can start winding down our
population. While this transition goes ahead, we will not be able to
support the present world population.
We just won't be able to do both.

the simple fact is our electicity is due to double

WHY?
because those in the know want 5000/8000..dollars
of free solar cells on their roofs....[thats the infastructure..they are building]

currently..less than one percent..of DAYTIME power
comes from this QUANGO,..a gift for those in the know..

THEn they still have the NERVE..to leech our off peak power[from coal stations]...and a tiny bit of hydro..and gas]

BUT WERE PAYING for the scam
its not the infastructure..that we need

whats the lie for...why cant we all be allowed into the scam
because were the mugs what need to pay for it

LOOK ITS A PYRAMID SCEME
those in early..are doing great
selling THEIR daytime power for 60 cents
getting their highttime power..on off peak..via the other infastructure WE ARE PAYING FOR AS WELL

now we have investers building solar farms
[or rather building farm..WITH OUR COMPULSORY levies]
then we will need to hook them up to the grid too...

MATE THATS ONE STEP TOO FAR..
you can se the lie...[we got too much co2...right?]
so what do we do?

we kick industry into high gear..[making more co2]
just to make more solar cells
or wind turbines

and today i heard some retard saying we got this solar infastructure for the next 3 generations...lol

[the life of a solar cell..is max 20 years]

how many times you seen wind farms..with 2 or 3 turbines not spinning arround...[see they break easy..just google pictures of broken wind turbines...

[one big cyclone..and their gone]

trouble is we got numbnutts..guilt merchants..running a scam
and the clever guys..[from the top of the consuming pyramid
getting the cream..off this pyramid scam

think about it
your powerr bill was say 600..because you wasted lots of power
paying 400 to get rid of..or halve ya bill..and FREE SOLAR
that was great...*for them

now...now many claim..they get cash back?

total power use..*should be the measure
lET THE BIG POWER CONSUMERS PAY

[my last bill was 50 bucks
i pay the same rate..as the fools using 500/1000
but they*...should be paying far more.
.because they waste more

and no..i got no subsidised solar cells
just dont use much power..[i like living like a blakkfella]

let the top 40 percent pay double
and make the benifitiaries..of free solar..pay back*..its FULL_cost
not us who get nuthing but extra price increase

and stop lying about co2..[look at our last coldest winter
now europe etc is heading to their BIG FREEZE

in 30 years all this solar/wind..INFASTRUCTURE..lol
will all be broken or obsolete
builty in obsolesance
AND
we will be doing it..ALL OVER AGAIN

this is no PERMANT FIX
its a guilt patch..to keep industry going
and get cash from YOUR pockets

to give to the loudest lier...or scam merchant..
talking about the sky falling..free cash subsidies
[and generate more co2 building it]

I agree with Ludwig and Bazz.

Instead of worrying about climate change, lets be more concerned about the world population. There are those that say when we run low on oil we will not be able to produce enough food and if they are right we should be looking at reducing the population.

Here is an article about how Iran reduces their birth rate from 3.2% to 1.2% merely by education about family planning.

Surely that is something we should be promoting. Maybe starting at the Vatican and some of the many over populated countries.

http://www.mnforsustain.org/iran_model_of_reducing_fertility.htm

Bazz, a good thread. Are you aware of the changes planned for AR5 in respect of the 'dated' SRES?

No Bonmot, I am not very up with that at all.
Please tell me about it.
It doesn't really matter anymore what the IPCC does, it is just that
they have a big effect on government spending.
Whatever happens we have to have a crash course of economising on oil
gas and coal consumption and we really ought to ban export of those fuels.

OK im still having a material problem
both with the lying science..as well as..the cheap political_quick fix

that isnt a real fix..
and is going to cost us all most dear

and..only bying them[..the liers].more time.
more polution..more govt subsidy
.
to make the PRO-blem..ever more..*WORSE

not only is the quango..of cli*mate change a lie
BUT..lets look at the gifting of billions $$..of solar cells
to individuals...for nothing..

*yet still sold to us..
*as infastructure..spending

infastructure..NOW OWNED..by those..
with nice new solar cells..on their*roof's

not us SUCKERS..paying for it ALL*
nor even govt..or the power industry
but oppertuinists..getting free solar

look at ya electicity BILL
i cop a minimum cost..for off peak power..of 15 bucks 60 cents
also a service TO properrty charge of 22.41

yet these bludgers..
get 8000 dollars..of FREE INFASTRUCTURE..THEY OWN*
free and clear...

*and dont EVER..have to pay for*

then..get access to..our grid..at night
[offest by that..they put in..during MOST days]

but..im paying..their acces..and free gift's..
for their night time..colluded THEFTS

SO ARE YOU..!

for what..so industry can GEAR UP..
[producing much more co2]..to build SOLAR..or windmills

building.."infastructure"..
that will wear-out..in less than 20/30..years

talk about mad..[insane]...

THEY.. still need that OVERNIGHT infastructure..!
run on coal...but those..in the know..
get their free lunch..[all round]

*and we get acces fees
increasing prices..paying for the lot
WE ARE ALL PAYING FOR..the whole scam

my bill..has more than half its componant...
PAYING FOR THE BIG USERS...by having FIXED user/acces charges..
to infastructure..WE OWN..PAID FOR..and now rent

yet them bludgers..with solar..INFASTRUCTURE..they own*..FEE free
own it all..never even paid it's full/true price..nor pay it back..even in part

yes THEY..are..cutting their* costs
to get a free lunch..
by doubling the cost of mine/yours

how long this insanity..of GOVT-gift giving...[built on a lie]..going to go on for?

will..we ever..get those..*who got..*free solar
to pay-back..the "infastructure"..they get for mothing

that is costing us all..the earth...
even if only their true co2..production costs..bah

then they add on gst..to my bill
they..[the bludgers]..
dont even give/pay..[get]..THAT..

You had better change your mind about climate change, before things get diabolical. You are going to have to pull your weight or we will all suffer the consequences. Mean temps are rising, if there is no change the survival of mankind will be under a cloud by 2050.
We are already looking at another .7 degree rise in temp no matter what we do in the next decade.

*Whatever happens we have to have a crash course of economising on oil
gas and coal consumption and we really ought to ban export of those fuels.*

Not really Bazz. If you banned exports, everyone would stop drilling
for new gas and oil reserves. Many of our gas reserves are still
being discovered as we speak. There is one hell of a lot of
drilling yet to do. At 25 million and more for some holes, it
ain't cheap either. Some of the deep water stuff is alot more
then that. Many are dry, so it isn't for the faint hearted or those
short of a few hundred million.

Well Yabby I am not too keen on banking on these "Yet to be Discovered" reserves.
It is bad enough banking on the "Yet to be Developed" reserves.
No one knows how long it will take to develop real alternative energy systems.
We could find ourselves running out before the alternatives are proven if we keep exporting.
If we are not exporting then when we will have a longer time before we
run low and that will be the time to work on looking for the yet to be founds.
It is a case of looking after number one.

579 said;
You had better change your mind about climate change, before things get diabolical.

Did you address that to me ?
Anyway no matter.
My point is 579 that there is no longer any point in worrying about
global warming as the causes which were hydrocarbon fuels will be
cutting back faster than the IPCC had recommended anyway.

So if governments did nothing CO2 emmissions would fall below what they
are trying to unsuccessfully implement anyway.

So relax it is all over.

*We could find ourselves running out before the alternatives are proven if we keep exporting.*

Bazz, you won't know a thing, unless you drill. I remind you that
Australia banned iron ore exports in the 50-60, as it was claimed
we had hardly any. Luckily Lang Hancock flew over some mountains and
realised that they were solid iron ore.

Australians can sign up right now, for gas supplies for their cars,
for the next 30 years if they wish. For companies to drill and build
export facilities, requires tens of billions of $. Banks want firm
commitment to buy what is produced, before they lend money.

So its up to consumers really. If they want virtually unlimited
supplies for the next thirty years, commit to buy them. If they
don't, the rest of the world will and we need the money to pay for
our imports. All quite simple really.

Yabby said;
Australians can sign up right now, for gas supplies for their cars,

Well, actually you can't sign up for gas now.
I have never seen a natural gas service station.
I asked one of the directors of Origin if they were considering
retailing natural gas and the answer was no.
He said the cost of installing the infrastructure was too great.
You can of course buy pumps for your garage and pump it into your cars
gas tank. They are not available here as far as I know and by the time
you pay for the gas and the electricity to run the pump it probably is
not economic at current petrol prices.

*You can of course buy pumps for your garage and pump it into your cars
gas tank.*

Well that was the idea Bazz. Alot of people already have gas piped
to their houses. No need to go to the pesky service station and
pay the Govt all those petrol taxes.

NZ has been pumping their own nat gas for cars for 40 years.
Using it in older cars and getting engine reco's pretty often, but it still made cense to do it that way.
Forty years ago in NZ the only way you could buy a new car was if you had an overseas bank account.
Pollution is mans biggest contribution to global climate change. It only stands to reason that has got to be the problem.

People are FINALLY catching up with the overstated reality!

Gore has pruned back his behemoth of "Alliance for Climate Protection"

It used to have offices in something like 47 states and NOW...just 9.

Awwwwww...all that $300,000,000 of lobbying and campaigning for Cap and Trade ...down the GURGLER! and rightly so!

They are sooo DESperate the UN spokeswoman opened the CANCUN talkfest with an appeal to pagan gods...IXCHEL (or was it..EGGshell?).

I guess when you don't have truth on your side.. you only hope is divine intervention...but it does help to have the actual real Creator as your listener to such prayers.

Al......I know you don'tThey are sooo DESperate the UN spokeswoman opened the CANCUN talkfest with an appeal to pagan gods...IXCHEL (or was it..EGGshell?). believe that.

As that's a mess...........lol..the new world is seeing you at the train-station...............on the steps.

Three hours...........I believe.

Now the world is working:) or not.

Just love your family..........and the time lords will do the rest:)
Not that Iam a big Dr who fan............but what makes the world go.....The tardus is waiting:)

BLUE

See......Al...Its easy to be full of it:)

BLUE

Under One God,
Are you actually a Christian? If so, what denomination? You are so quick to call global warming a lie, but did you know that the previous head of the IPCC, Sir John Houghton, is a Christian? How about Bill McKibben? These are some really big names in the climate movement, and you just want to portray them as being in on some huge conspiracy? Your Christian brothers and sisters? Do you know what kind of SLANDER you are dumping on your Christian mates?&#8232;&#8232;

One more thing. Please try to write shorter, more comprehensible posts with grammar and English. And some form of argument, with facts to back them up.

or I’ll right-off
strange rants
**non** sentences
SUDDEN CAPS without any MEANing

As someone dies,
Alone,
In the rain...

@ ALGORE is RICH
Please try reading this article by Anglican ethicist Dr Andrew Cameron, “How sceptical is too sceptical?”

http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/life/apologetics/63_climate_change_part_3_how_sceptical_is_too_sceptical/

Like all right-wing conspiracy nutters, you’re embarrassing the Lord with your anti-science, anti-truth, anti-climate rants. Climate science should be boring and old hat. It should be accepted by now. It should be *half solved* by now.

For example, once upon a time we built homes out of asbestos. Once we put lead in our fuel to lubricate our engines. Then our scientists discovered just how bad both of these things were for public health, and we banned it.

Fossil fuels should go the same way. We are starting to run out anyway, as the links to the opening post shows. Burning coal and oil are especially bad for public asthma rates, lung cancer and throat cancer. What do the energy companies do?

Sit back and let the public purse pick up the health bill. Now, as a good ‘market’ kind of guy, you’d call that communism wouldn’t you? State funded and subsidised energy? How does $10 billion a year in subsidies to fossil fuel energy sound?

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/05/07/1178390228019.html

That’s COMMUNISM! That’s a CONSPIRACY by fossil fuel companies to take over the world and get taxpayer backing. Oh wait. They already have.

Sadly, we can’t afford to burn everything that’s left, as that would place far to great a Radiative Forcing in the climate system.

Basically, being convinced of the science, it is my Christian duty to take climate seriously so as not to hurt my neighbours trying to farm in Africa and South America.