As a species we seem to confuse information with knowledge and intelligence with education. Could this be the cause of so much emotional stress and damage?

There seem to be those of us who don’t even know what we don’t know, lets call us passive “don’t get its”. We muddle along with a grumble and a groan as life and society dishes out the sort of emotional stress described by Australian of the Year winner 2003, Professor Fiona Stanley, where she describes our “toxic society”.

“Nearly 20 percent of Australian teenagers now have mental health problems. Nearly a quarter of all families now rely on welfare. Suicides among 15-19 year old males have quadrupled since the 1970s. Obesity has increased in teenagers from around 10 percent in 1985 to nearly 25 percent today. A quarter of all children aged four and five are now overweight for their height. The number of people aged 12 to 18 who are homeless on any given night has increased dramatically to 26,000 last year. Documented increases are evidenced in substance abuse, child abuse, binge drinking, teenage pregnancy, eating disorders, juvenile crime, juvenile diabetes, low-birth weight babies, Neuro developmental complications, asthma, serious behavioral problems and autism. Twelve year old children are having mental health problems, depression, anxiety, hyperactivity, schizophrenia, right through to violent behavior towards teachers”.

Or we could be active “don’t get its”. We actually do know we “don’t get it” and that makes us mad as hell. We resolve this by obsessively collecting information and similar opinion to make us feel better. All it does of course is make us madder as we realize we will never “get it”. Either way, it makes “actives” belligerent or aggressive leading to more emotional stress and damage.

Those who “do get it” seem to be more relaxed, less stressed and enjoy more comfort with self. They need very little information, no confirming opinion from others and seem capable of “synthesizing” the reality of our toxic society without the attendant problems described by Fiona Stanley.

Dear Spindoc

welcome to the world without God. (as you described it)

Jesus summed up the situation for how humanity 'should' live and it's this.

1/ Love God with all your heart.
2/ Love your neighbour as yourself.

Simple isn't it? Vertical relationship right...= Horizontal will follow.

Psalm 1... a 'guidance' for life :)

1 Blessed is the one
who does not walk in step with the wicked
or stand in the way that sinners take
or sit in the company of mockers,
2 but whose delight is in the law of the LORD,
and who meditates on his law day and night.
3 That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither—
whatever they do prospers.

4 Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction

Even using Psalm 1 as our guide.. it can be a struggle in the real world.

Look at a different Psalm reflecting an experience of struggle.

Psalm 73

1 Surely God is good to Israel,
to those who are pure in heart.

2 But as for me, my feet had almost slipped; <= this bit.
I had nearly lost my foothold.
3 For I envied the arrogant
when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

4 They have no struggles;
their bodies are healthy and strong.[a]
5 They are free from common human burdens;
they are not plagued by human ills.
6 Therefore pride is their necklace;
they clothe themselves with violence.
7 From their callous hearts comes iniquity[b];
their evil imaginations have no limits.
8 They scoff, and speak with malice;
with arrogance they threaten oppression.
9 Their mouths lay claim to heaven,
and their tongues take possession of the earth.
10 Therefore their people turn to them
and drink up waters in abundance.
11 They say, “How would God know?
Does the Most High know anything?”

spindoc
Well observed spindoc. What makes some individuals able to synthesize all that and find contentment and others less able to do so. Young people are more at risk because they have not the experience to synthesize what is around them and sort out the guff rom the real. It comes with time, some it comes to sooner.

While the focus remains on individualism and consumerism and while we allow purely economic outcomes to define the wellness of societies we lose the emphasis on the social ones. The positive thing is that a 'back to earth' type movement is already happening and people are seeing through the facades and seeking to improve their lives by turning their back on materialism or refusing to be adversely affected by the noise and the spin. As we get older we get better at doing that.

Phrases like "money doesn't make you happy" are well coined but in the rush sometimes it does not hit home until one has been through the wringer and come to a personal choice (something we still own) to get off the treadmill if that rocks your boat.

The answer to contentment (however that is defined) is within ourselves, even if we cannot change what we don't like around us, we can refuse to play or do it on our own terms. Finding a lifestyle, or state of being, that makes one content/happy is not always easy.

The other day I asked a little kid what he wanted to be when he grew up, and paused to think, why am I asking a five year old what he wants to be when he grows up, when I don't even know what I want to be and he should just be a kid enjoying all those kid things. Had to kick myself for parrotting that nonsense.

Thanks AGiR, I am sure that religion has played its part in providing guidance for our species. However, when you say, “Welcome to a world without God (as you describe it)”.

I have to wonder if this is correct. I mean firstly, I wasn’t actually trying to describe a world without God, i.e. not laying blame; I was trying to describe a human phenomena.

You may be right that our woes are because we are Godless however, we do have a world where the majority of people have indeed embraced Gods or a God, and to be fair we have some 34,000 registered religions, so being “Godless” doesn’t seem to fit as a solution. We are actually very religious as a species. Have I misunderstood your point?

Pelican, you describe many of the “things” that clearly don’t make us happy, mostly stemming from consumerism, money, materialism and, if I understand you correctly, poor life choices. So more to my inquiry, if those things that we believe will make us happy, don’t make us happy, where is the problem?

Is it because we “buy into it” due to ignorance, lack of intelligence, too lazy to check the information or is it because we are “sold” something that others convince us will solve our problems? Are we just plain vulnerable?

Could it be both? If so why are we, as a species, so vulnerable to being sold a “pup”?

I like your theme but I seem to have observed something I can’t explain, yet the lack of explanation causes me even more angst.

spindoc/quote..<<..I seem to have observed..something>>
is this specific..or generally speaking?

some-thing..<<I can’t explain,..yet the lack of explanation..causes me even more angst.>>not everything needs a reason...not everything can be reasoned...but anything can be explained

so lets read back to your first post...[quote]..<,..we seem to confuse..information..with knowledge>>.ok im seing the picture/here

ok lets rebut the presumptions..<<..Nearly 20 percent of..teenagers/have mental health problems.>>

you must not forget..that certain obsessive types[phycoligist/phycryitrysts...love to get funding..thus beat -up..statistics..

[recall add...is a miss-diagnosis]..
besides..who judges..what is normal...or aberant.,..

its a fine line..between genus and insanity]
[and lets face it those educated phycs...are near nutts themselves]

sounds like your confusing statistics..with fact
or classification..with adgenda

look the stats..play games..called spin
like 2 out of every 100 dope-smokers get phycosis

BUT..what they DONT reveal..is 4/100..NON SMOKERS..get phycosis

[so if they ONLY* quoted..the first number..
HALF THE OTHER NUMBER]..then they made their SPIN*
thats the game

confusing..<<intelligence..>>knowing facts..<<with education.>>ability to par*rot..back propaganda..!
then yes<<..this be/the cause..of so much emotional stress..and damage..!>

<<There seem to-be..those of us
who don’t even know..what we don’t know,>>>and dont need to know
EXCEPT when the media needs to generate fear..for their NEXT adgenda item

<<lets call us passive..“don’t get its”.>>
let not..think we are the problem...as has allready BEEN TOLD
its as simple as loving neighbour...*!

<<We muddle along..with a grumble..and a groan>>.
destracted..BY TODAYS..*SPIN POINT/ADGENDA

<<as life..and society>>>or rather the media-spin/cycle..<<dishes out the sort of emotional stress>>>that puts us into the fight...or flight...FEAR mode...where flight..*is impossable...and fight gets you sent to a phycia_tryst..or their private prisons..and JUST_US..courts.

i been homeless...its nothing
suicide...we are eternal spirits having..a life-sentanence

how about all the kids suicided in ww1..ww2...korea...nam..iraq..afganastan
who died..*so we can be tricked..by the lying-media?

YES...YOUR right
some...just dont get..the games..[boys-ploys]...our leaders/play

Spindoc could most of those things listed under a toxic society have already been here but we didn’t see it because of lack of information/communication?

Mental disease diagnoses are off the charts to hide the drug stats?
Suicide hidden because of shame or religion?
People always hurt kids but now others want to stop them?
Many other problems doctors and drug companies profit from?
Fat kids… yeah heaps more of them even in the last 20 years.

I thought stupid did make people happy, people who don’t know a lot seem much more content with the world.

Knowing more created more stress, more information available and most of it depressing to anyone able to absorb it.

Maybe there are people that can block it out at will once they “get it” so they cope just fine.

“information with knowledge” Lost me on that one.

“ intelligence with education” That is about how you have an intelligence IQ level no matter what you have learned?

Faith comes under the heading of knowledge without information?

One under God,
What format do you use to construct your posts, as they are very hard to read?

Spindoc,
Some of us just don’t get it or is it that you get it just nicely but feel confused, as many around you are lost in the broth of society. Those that appear to handle stress so well are normally bluffing or cold hearted.

Trying to understand what ‘it’ is, is a very problematic issue. No matter where I have roamed in life through Christians, pagans, Buddha’s what ever, the question is always unanswered among those that are able to question and not follow without reason.

20% of our youth have mental health problems?
Well probably they always have but the pressure of modern society and the unreasonable expectations placed on young people trigger mental health issues earlier. In some cases they may well have been able to live their lives without it becoming such a large problem. We should Look at our own families. When one in five has a mental health issue do we really notice that our son, daughter or relative show manic behavior. Then again do we see it in our selves? It can be subtle but yet enough that suicidal tendencies may be there.

High suicide rate in 15 – 19 year olds.
Well what do we expect? There never seems to be an argument that at this age we are too young to understand what we are doing but some how we expect young people with highly reorganizing brains and all the confusion of being a teen to make life changing and critical decisions about their future. At all times impressing on them that if they don’t get it right their lives will be ruined. Yes we are a bright lot aren’t we.

The battle of the bulge.
MMM? This is a problem that I battle every day of my life. I am a physical worker and have always enjoyed a beer after work, but these days I notice that if I don’t keep it to once a week I grow bigger very fast. To blame fast food does have some relevance but it is also true that no one makes us eat it. In many ways it comes down to our affluence, we eat to rich all the time. Anyone who has traveled knows that the food you get around the world is never as rich as the takeaway you get at the local Indian, Chinese, Italian pizza eta.

We live in an over indulgent and fear ridden society. It would appear that we seem to think that if we don’t put ourselves under the maximum pressure and have unrealistic expectations of what life is and can offer we label ourselves as failures. It is always quantity over quality or as I have put it so many times before, standard of living over quality of life.

spindoc
Interesting question - why do we "buy into it". Because it is the status quo and that = security.

On one of your earlier comments, it is true that human beings once convinced of a certain viewpoint tend to find supporting 'evidence' and flock to like-opinions that support that worldview, even whilst blatant evidence to the contrary might be staring them in the face. This applies to political ideology, religion or lifestyle choices.

The thing is the "just don't get it" phenomenon applies to us all (and very much in the eye of the beholder) because we all see things from an entrenched viewpoint, some more than others, without scrutinising our own opinions closely enough.

And the hardest thing of all - how does one sort the truth from the spin and read between the lines.

Perhaps it comes down to the fact that opinions form part of identity, identity=security and if that identity is threatened defensive mechanisms are invoked unconsciously. Even if something can be proved does not mean it will be absorbed, because human beings are complicated and self-interest often comes into play.

Most people can distinguish intelligence from education, or knowledge from spin (fact from fiction) if they search deep enough. Human beings tire quickly of the 'superficial' even if it brings them short term gain.

You really would have to say that things are getting worse by the day. Here are a few thoughts on why.

Every time we graduate another class of psychiatrists, we have to get another hundred or so people with mental problems, to fill their case book.

We graduate psychologists, & have to find more troubled folk.

Even worse, when we graduate more social workers, we have to generate another bunch of welfare cases.

It would appear that all these graduates have only ever caused problems, never solved them. Like the Drug & Alcohol Foundation, who developed the harm minimisation system. They don't want to be out of work, because they cured too many people.

Then of course, the acceleration of all these problems started when we dropped that old standby. You know it, it went something like "spare the rod, & spoil the child".

All the ologists will be aghast that someone should suggest corporal punishment, it goes against everything they believe. After all, it is the new gentle society & it's ills that keeps them running to the bank, with all that cash.

Sin equals death while godliness equals contentment and life. Secularism is clearly to blame for increase suicide, increase violence, sexual perversion, lack of self control, little to no discipline, a joke of a court system, divorce, rebellious kids, increase in teen pregnancies and std's, abortions. Just look at the immoral food people feed on night after night on TV. You don't need a phd to see the fruits of a nation turning from godliness and self destructing. Then again most with phd's are so blinded by their own sin that they can't comprehend commonsense. Of course their are a few exceptions. The acceptance of the pseudo science of evolution has justified in many people's mind the absurd notion that one day they won't have to account to their Maker for their immoralities, greed and defiance. The wise ones who can see their families falling apart find grace by repenting of their defiance. The proud go on justifying the unjustifible.

ALGOREisRICH, your post with the psalm has warmed my heart.

Spindoc, I understand your argument about religions not working, but please read ALGOREisRICH's words carefully, because the word "religion" was not even mentioned there.

"we do have a world where the majority of people have indeed embraced Gods or a God, and to be fair we have some 34,000 registered religions"

Yes, many have accepted 'God' as an intellectual concept, but how many in fact love God with all their heart?

Thinking "God exists" is as good as any other thought. Loving, on the other hand, with or without that particular thought, is a whole different dimension.

There are so many factors to take into consideration, so many personal hypotheses that justify or explain what and why the world around us is not adhering to what we think should be and how it should come about.

I agree with what the initial post is suggesting, in admiration, also with pelicans input on the matter.

Label me how you will but I too am compelled to express my opinion on this topic, so here goes.

The problems I see in everyday society is not the lack of love for a god but the lack of love for oneself, love for the people around them, love for an unknown person or being. I'm not saying flower power is the answer here, I am suggesting that once an individual can learn to love who they are truly, they will lead a happier life without the constant depressing voice of others, and worst of all yourself, nagging to change the things that make you, you.

Without acceptance there will be no peace of mind, when a person accepts that every event has a reason, that what has happened in the past can't be changed, nor the future foreseen, there will be constant conflicting within oneself.

I think that when people stop pressuring themselves to constantly upgrade or fit into a stereotype then the happier they will be.

We are vulnerable spindoc because we want to believe that the pup will make us happy, we are taught to want what other people want us to want at a very early age (say that ten times fast!. I speak as though I have the answers and by all rights I may be way off the mark. But that is my opinion in the air, forming my identity and without it, I would remain unheard.

The American author Marianne Williamson once wrote:

"For almost every worldly source of happiness, there's a fear-based reason to worry. We may have incredible children, for instance, but a day doesn't go by that we're not concerned about their welfare for one reason or another. The very fact that we love our children so much, juxtaposed with all the danger in the world, is enough to keep any parent anxious. We may have a great career, but the pressures are intense. We may have wonderful relationships, but people are still people. We may have a lovely house but there are big responsibilities to that one too."

Children are happy because they don't yet have a file in their minds called, "All the Things That Could Go wrong." They don't have a mind-set that puts "Things to Fear," before "Things to Love."

Children are happy because they don't have all the facts yet.
Perhaps happiness requires that we give up a wordly orientation - not wordly things, but a worldy attachment to things?

“Nearly 20 percent of Australian teenagers now have mental health problems. Nearly a quarter of all families now rely on welfare. Suicides among 15-19 year old males have quadrupled since the 1970s. Obesity has increased in teenagers from around 10 percent in 1985 to nearly 25 percent today. A quarter of all children aged four and five are now overweight for their height. The number of people aged 12 to 18 who are homeless on any given night has increased dramatically to 26,000 last year. Documented increases are evidenced in substance abuse, child abuse, binge drinking, teenage pregnancy, eating disorders, juvenile crime, juvenile diabetes, low-birth weight babies, Neuro developmental complications, asthma, serious behavioral problems and autism. Twelve year old children are having mental health problems, depression, anxiety, hyperactivity, schizophrenia, right through to violent behavior towards teachers”.

You wanna know why?

It's called 'broadening the definitions'.

Just like when the NSW governmnet (Or city rail?) redefined late as plus or minus at least 10 minutes.

Just like rape is now 'sexual assault' that includes being pinched on the bum, or even 'regretted sex'.

Just like the entire Australian Rugby Union team has a BMI above a level that has them defined as overweight.

Just like domestic violence now includes shouting

Just like getting drunk is now 'binge drinking', and a 'binge' is now any more than 2 glasses in one sitting.

Just like little boys not sitting still for a 1 hour reading of war and peace is ADHD.

Just like a good smack is now 'child abuse'

The list is endless.

'We had no incidence of bullying and the bureaucracy set up an anti-bullying unit. First job, to convince people they were bullied. '

Houel that was epic.

This is how the shrinks fill their books and people are turned into cash for all the services that are forever expanding the definitions.

Lexi,

"Perhaps happiness requires that we give up a wordly orientation - not wordly things, but a worldy attachment to things"

Certainly, that's the key, but how do you get there?

The reason you need God's Grace, or call it what you may, to lift your worldly orientation was stated by Archimedes: "Give me a firm location outside our earth, and I will lift the world off its hinges".

Yuyutsu:

We must decide to fly above the turmoil of we really want to fly above it. We must ignore maturely not immaturely, a whole realm of so-called meaning. As long as our self-identification centers around what we call the real world, no profound happiness is possible. Happiness requires that we give up a wordly orientation as I stated previously - not wordly things but a wordly attachment to things. We have to surrender all outcomes. We have to live here but appreciate the joke. It's a phenomenal challenge because the world does not support our expansion into superbeings. Just as children play games in which they pretend to be adults, and thus pave the way into adulthood, so you and I must pretend to be angelic, noble, and enlightened spirits just visiting here, in order to actually become them.

This is all very true, Lexi, but how are you going to sustain that angelic attitude in the face of the first (and inevitable) crisis?

You just cannot do it alone, to overcome the attachment to the world without any firm location outside the world, but with God's Grace you can, as stated by Krishna in the Bhagavad-Gita, chapter 4, verse 10:

"Being freed from attachment, fear and anger, being fully absorbed in Me and taking refuge in Me, many, many persons in the past became purified by knowledge of Me - and thus they all attained transcendental love for Me"

We have to rise above material desires! we must hug babies! we must appreciate the flowers!

All this blah blah blah you always hear from unhappy people telling us what 'we' must do to be 'truly' happy.

Well, all I see the is self-justification of miserable people pretending that they're all spiritual and that they WILL ( I think I can I think I can) be happy when all these intangible warm and fuzzy buzz words allow them to escape even more from reality.

The people who bang on like this are the people I think are the most unhappy, so why do they decide that 'we' should do this and that when it's plain obvious they're the ones who are so unhappy.

Most people who are genuinely happy and mature know that it isn't some great struggle.

The Pied Piper, yes, I think many of the things caused by our toxic society could well have been around for a long time and we are only just being able to investigate and report on them. The issue remains though, that if this is just Australia, what on earth would the figures for the rest of the world look like?

<< “Information with knowledge” Lost me on that one.>>

Data is everything that is recorded or stored; Information is data that is context sensitive or related to a specific topic. Knowledge is Information applied to a result of some sort. The ingredients for a cake are information, with a recipe and skills it can produce the result, Knowledge, a cake. Many of us seem to collect masses of information on topics but seem unable to reach a result or conclusion.

<< Intelligence vs education>> you mention IQ, which is not intelligence; it is a measure of aptitude, our ability to learn. There are other forms of intelligence measures used today but they are all aptitudes. (SQ, EQ and PQ)

There is not a single education system on the planet that teaches “intelligence” but you might need a reasonable IQ to get qualifications. If we could teach intelligence we would be able to teach someone with an IQ of 100 to have and IQ of 130, but we can’t.

You say “Faith comes under the heading of knowledge without information?” Not really, Faith does not require, nor does it have information, therefore it cannot have knowledge, i.e. it cannot produce a result of any description, thus we call it faith.

Pelican, I think I agree that the passive or active “just don’t get its” applies to all of us at some level. Yet we think we are intelligent, so why cannot we detect that which is not real and protect ourselves and our emotional well being from fiction? Why do many of us actually “adopt a fiction” thinking it will sooth us? Could it be the adoption of fictions that causes us the emotional stress? (runner??)

continue

Continued:

Hasbeen, you make sense. Could it be the people making these decisions “Just don’t get it”

Yuyutsu, you may have misunderstood my point. I was not implying that religion has not worked, I was responding to AGiR’s assertion that our ills are because we are godless, when clearly we have millions who have God in their lives, at whatever level they choose.

Nicnoto, loved your post. You used a key phrase,

<<I am suggesting that once an individual can learn to love who they are truly, they will lead a happier life without the constant depressing voice of others, and worst of all yourself, nagging to change the things that make you, you.>>

Can you please tell me who, or what, within our societies, you feel is the precise nature of those “constant depressing voice of others” that you imply nag you to change who you are?

Is anyone any closer to identifying either the “traits” or “causes” of the things that damage us emotionally?

Is it our belief in the unbelievable?

Houlley, there you go again in predictable form. Who is telling who how they should be happy? Why do read an opinion as though it is meant to reflect everyone elses'. Do we need to write a caveat each post to ensure no sensitive souls take offence that someone might be telling them what 'they' should think and do.

Do whatever it is that makes you happy, if you know what it is. Same applies for everyone.

Spin:”You say “Faith comes under the heading of knowledge without information?” Not really, Faith does not require, nor does it have information, therefore it cannot have knowledge, i.e. it cannot produce a result of any description, thus we call it faith.”

Don’t you start with one basic knowledge... someone informed you there was a God then the knowledge bit is that you decided they were right? I think I decided faith was an emotion while typing that.

Umm... so knowledge is how one assimilates information or the conclusion of various information and then the decision to not let it bother us too much is “getting it”?

Spin:”The issue remains though, that if this is just Australia, what on earth would the figures for the rest of the world look like?”

If they are as busy as Aussie at broadening definitions they probably look just as bad. It’s one thing to decide evil spirits give us diseases but now we have gone stupid.

I was okay regretting the odd walk of shame on a Saturday morning but now I have been sexually assaulted? Which means I am a victim now which probably means I have some kind of post traumatic stress disorder I didn’t know about and someone out there will be wanting to talk to me and give me mind altering medication. Wonder if Centrelink is waiting with some kind of disability payment or victim compensation…

pelican,

*WE* *MUST* decide to fly above the turmoil of *WE* really want to fly above it. *WE* *MUST* ignore maturely not immaturely, a whole realm of so-called meaning. As long as our self-identification centers around what *WE* call the real world, no profound happiness is *POSSIBLE*. Happiness requires that *WE* give up a wordly orientation as I stated previously - not wordly things but a wordly attachment to things. *WE* have to surrender all outcomes. *WE* have to live here but appreciate the joke.

'Do whatever it is that makes you happy, if you know what it is'
I do. Winding you lot up.

'I was okay regretting the odd walk of shame on a Saturday morning but now I have been sexually assaulted? Which means I am a victim now which probably means I have some kind of post traumatic stress disorder I didn’t know about and someone out there will be wanting to talk to me and give me mind altering medication. Wonder if Centrelink is waiting with some kind of disability payment or victim compensation…'

That's gold Piper!

Hang on guys and gals, there is some really good stuff coming out on this thread, much of it from posters that, in their honesty, might get mashed by realism. Please let the debate run.

We all have a contribution to make regardless of our perspectives. When on form, this forum has much to offer in understanding the human condition. I am learning and I’m sure that if we just stop trying to be “smart” and closing down the debate, we will all learn something valuable.

Can I please refocus your intellect and knowledge on the essence of this thread? If, as stated by Professor Fiona Stanley we, as a species, are suffering dreadful emotional damage just by being part of our societies, what might be the “cause” of that damage?

All posters seem to agree that the damage is happening, which is self evident. So how might we apply the collective might and intellect of our OLO community to come up with answers rather than more questions?

TPP, << Don’t you start with one basic knowledge... someone informed you there was a God then the knowledge bit is that you decided they were right? I think I decided faith was an emotion while typing that>>

I’m having real difficulty with this response. Yes I fully agree, faith is an emotional response, then you say “Don’t you start with one basic knowledge”

Knowledge is nothing to do with belief or faith. Knowledge is an adjective, a doing word. If you cannot provide information on the topic, you cannot possibly have knowledge.

You then say, <<someone informed you there was a God>>. No, someone informed you that as a result of their “faith” they believed there was a God. You do not have the authority of information to support this and because there is no “information” there can never be knowledge, no adjective, no doing, no result, just faith.

Continued:

Continued:

You say, <<Umm... so knowledge is how one assimilates information or the conclusion of various information and then the decision to not let it bother us too much is “getting it”? >>

No, Intelligence is how one assimilates information, not knowledge, because very little information is needed for assimilation, there is no “decision” for those who “get it”, and therefore there is no inner conflict and no emotional damage.

TPP, I don’t wish to piss in your pocket (sorry GY), but you are the only one so far on OLO that seems to grasp the significance of the human condition.

Can I offer a further compliment? I think you are very close to “getting it”.

Now I’m going to seriously generate some (more) conflict. What if I were to suggest that the cause of human angst is our departure from reality? What if I were to suggest that our lives are dictated by fear, uncertainty and doubt? that out responses are the adoption of placebos such as dogma, paranoia, theology, ideology, fantasies (Aliens, pixies and fairies) conspiracy theories and obsessions? That each of these gives us temporary relief from the effects of the societies which we have created? But that each of these is in conflict with the instinctive reality that burns like a laser beam through our created comfort zones? That it is these inner conflicts that cause us to be “ill at ease” with self? And as a result we burn emotional effort and damage ourselves. Thank you Yuyutsu.

You know, Hasbeen, I think you're right.

One of the problems with our research-focused higher education system is that, in areas such as psychology, we are too eager to identify new 'conditions'. What was once 'naughtiness' is a condition - treatable with drugs - that prevents a child from following rules. What was once 'not listening' is a condition - treatable with drugs - that prevents a child from following instructions. What was once 'sookiness' in a condition - treatable with drugs - that prevents a child from interacting positively with others. This feeling of 'poor me, I can't help it: I have a condition!' carries through into adulthood.

Every day, I stand in front of drug-addled classes of children who have been told that their misbehaviour is not their fault, and that they don't have to take any active steps (other than taking their drugs) to control themselves. It's up to teachers, deputies, coordinators and school counsellors to nurture them rather than to enforce rules. In my last school, students with 'anger management issues' (read: erratic violent behaviour) were issued with time out passes so they could go to some sort of 'zen room' and calm down (it wasn't actually called a zen room, but with calming music, mini zen gardens and water features, let's call a spade a spade).

I won't deny that there ARE mental health problems out there, but I think many of the new conditions we are seeing and treating have always been there. Our approach to them has changed, though, building a society of 'victims' and people who can blame 'the system' or 'bad genes' for their own failure to fit in.

I believe we create chaos deliberately to distract us from acknowledging Nothing About Us Is Infinite.

I appreciate it Spindoc but really I’ve myself become hooked up on the definition given to “knowledge” compared with “Intelligence”. I get the feeling that although the word knowledge is used it is because of our limited language.

I asked a Minister once why they believed and the reply shocked me. “It makes life easier”. The last thing I was expecting was something so honest and simple. I have a nasty suspicion that all religions had to include a “no suicide” rule because if you fully believed you’d just be there already.

Spin:“Knowledge is nothing to do with belief or faith. Knowledge is an adjective. If you cannot provide information on the topic, you cannot possibly have knowledge.”

So knowledge is proof? Oh.. hang on is it the “reasoning” involved why you believe or conclude something?

Hey Otokonoko, kids suck for sure. It’s too late for some teens, you have to do the no physical consequence stuff from the beginning and raise nice young people who then go on to behave in schools. You can’t smack them at home and then throw them at teachers to control who can’t use the parents discipline techniques. They work out early you can't hurt them and other consequences they didn't get taught or have a maturity to understand. Concepts like education being a privilage and what it means to their future blah blah.

High five Houel. :P

Maybe the idea of segregating healthy young human beings inside buildings for thirty-odd hours a week for thirty-odd weeks of the year and force- feeding them "knowledge" is where we're going wrong.
We've only been doing it for around two hundred years, after all.

Strange days on planet earth.

IMHO, this is what is wrong: yes we ask children what they want to be before they can even have a thought about it. I got brought up that way, my parents telling me what to be. I listened to them, but did it make me happy doing that? No!

Why does it always go back to god? GOD is your believe, FULLSTOP.

UOG: i hope you've started working on your book.

TPP: so, what can you do to change what you know? I had a chat on the phone today.. and i said, how we always look back at our childhood, because it was simple then. This world we choose to live in, is complicated, that can't change unless you choose to live otherwise.
Sexual assault? Reality, just hv to accept and live with it.

It might be complicated, but doesn't mean you have to keep stressing and worrying about everything. We have it good, just choose to look at the negatives, and not the positives.

nairbe: just remove all the symbols, and UOG's writing will be clear.

Hasbeen: it's getting worse if you choose to look at it that way. they are theories to prove you WRONG

Go back to your earlist memories before someone/thing told you what to believe...

Stop feeling sorry for the wrongs, and start feeling great for the right, is that too much to ask?

Jinny:”Stop feeling sorry for the wrongs, and start feeling great for the right, is that too much to ask?”

I find that a freakish question for a self proclaimed rebel to ask.

Jinny: “ so, what can you do to change what you know”

Why would I want to do that? I’d rather change what I don’t know.

Jinny I think you’ve decided I’m not happy, there is a gap between being aware of situations that make one very unhappy and one actually being an unhappy person. I’m hanging out in the gap.

Looking back at childhood from the perspective of being a child brings a lot of chaotic images and confusion. Adults see children as uncomplicated and simple but that isn’t how children view the world around them. They don't have the ability to "get it".

I might be on shakey ground their spindoc.

Dear Nicnoto,
We get our identity from our father. We have a generation without identity (lost). If you see God as your father, as you develop a relationship with him you develop his character in your life. The older I get the more of my father I see in my life. My hope is in Jesus. Without hope you are hope less. Al put it simply and correctly.
Children are good mimics and see through hypocrisy.
Love is the key. God is Love and he is only a decision away.
If your hope is in evolution you believe in random chance not intelligent design.

Spindoc, I think I understood what you said:

There are millions who claim to be religious, but how many actually are?

Stating 'God Exists' is a mere intellectual exercise, just as others state 'We are going forward' or 'Mankind can do it'. Intellectual exercises do not make one happier, intellectual exercises do not a religion make.

"Religion" comes from the Latin "re-ligare" - to bond again [with God]. Obviously this endeavour demands much more from the individual than simply stating 'X is true ; Y is false', it demands one's whole being, day-in and day-out, night-in and night-out, doing one's best to unite with God out of love. It demands sacrifices, it demands austerities, and though failing over many times, picking up the pieces and trying again and again with renewed determination.

Happiness does come along the way, but the true seeker, the true lover of God, will not be tempted. S/He will say: "God, it is not this happiness which you sent me that I am after - it is You alone that I love, You alone that will satisfy me".

ALGOREisRICH,

The correct translation of the psalm should be "Blissed", rather than "Blessed":

Blissed is the man who did not walk in the path advised by the wicked
Nor stood in the path of sinners
Nor sat in the seat of mockers

Dear Yuyutusu,
I have some great news for you, The price has been paid in full, and the need for sacrifices is finished, the way to God is open. As I get older I find my father in myself. I guess I am a chip of the old block. All fall short of the mark and are tempted. Our efforts at righteousness are as filthy rags to God. Wash your robe in the blood of the lamb who has bore the punishment for our sins, don't reject Gods free gift of salvation. If you truly want to bond with God all you have to do is accept Gods free gift of salvation. Swallow your pride and admit that it is not possible for you to make enough sacrifice to appease God. As you live in the vine you will bare the fruit of the vine. We get our identity and our name from our father. To be called by Christs name we must be born into his family. Impossible for man BUT with God ALL things are possible. Blessed is the man whose God is the Lord, cursed is the man who rejects Gods free gift and he will continue to live by the sweat of his brow, his own efforts at righteousness. The law came by Moses. Grace (undeserved favor), and Truth came through Jesus. THE PRICE IS PAID IN FULL. The way to God is open.
Ps living in a chook house does not make you a chook. Going to church does not make you a christian. It is the old story of the chicken and the egg which came first.
.

Richie 10,
Many of your ideas are fundamentalist cliche and not intelligent understanding of 21st century reality. They may be understood by ancient Jews familiar with the concepts of animal sacrifice.

Dear Richie,

I see that Philo has preceded me, thank you for that, but let me put it in my own words:

You must place the words of Jesus in the context in which he was living. The people among whom Jesus taught and preached were primitive. As funny or sad as it sounds to us today, they believed that God can be bargained with and even that they could play legalistic tricks on Him, so much that they became a nation of lawyers. They further blindly believed that the pain of poor animals being sacrificed can atone for their own sins (in other words, erase their own worldly attachments, for one cannot have two masters at once). To such people, Jesus had to speak using the highest possible words which they could still understand: "THE PRICE IS PAID IN FULL". This is the greatest news he could give them at the time.

Chicken and egg indeed: To be a Christian, one must follow the way of Jesus and be willing to shed one's life at the cross, if necessary, or endure any equivalent pain. This is not possible without the highest level of detachment from the world, and you know it isn't easy. However, by combining one's sincere efforts with the Grace of God, it is possible.

Richie 10,
Many of your ideas are fundamentalist cliche and not intelligent understanding of 21st century reality.....Oh leave the bloke alone. There are larger parasites that sit with-in the global site beasts that which tear at the hearts of mortal man. These parasitic infestations, worm though-out the syber space horizons, with such devastating negative so-called generosity, which is only seen by their own durations of ignorance and self-destructive stupidity. One can only be shamed by sharing this wonderful world with such empty hollow oxygen wasting pond scum. Oh eve, what have you done. Now the snake is loose on all that Adam was.

Quite poetic considering since truth has no place in a world evil.

Man-made of course.

BLUE

Dear Richie

I appreciate your passion, truly. But I will not fall into the arms of any God or deity in this lifetime.

I am a good person, I am happy and I know my path in life (for now). There is no bitterness within me, no confusion and this has all been accomplished without a father figure (not much of one anyway).

But I am what you would call a sinner, damned to the depths of hell to burn in all eternity...why? Because my soul mate, the person I am truly in love with happens to be in the form of another woman.
The fact that something so pure is sin in the eyes of your father, judged not by himself but his children, is to me, something I want nothing of.
Love...we share plenty, more than most people I know will ever feel, so I don't need another guiding spirit in life to show me the way because I am already there, we have each other.

Otokonoko, the following also extracted from Professor Fiona Stanley’s report:

“Eleven year olds are presenting to NSW Government with problems not encountered before. Some of them are so violent they are unable to be fostered, educated or controlled.”

More disturbing still is the data from the WA Education Department. “……they have seen a trebling almost every five years of children with quite significant behavioural problems; they have to be taken out of the classroom. These children are severely disruptive, very angry”. This report is referring to five year olds!!

Are we breaking “emotionally” with a wider range of symptoms, across wider socio/economic strata’s and at an earlier and earlier age than ever? Is this, as Hasbeen suggests, that we are now measuring and reporting on issues we never analysed before?

Either way, we have a problem because authorities and ‘ologists of every description are making policy decisions related to this phenomena. If as we have discussed, we are all “don’t get it’s” at some level, then it follows that those making such decisions also “don’t get it”.

This brings us back to the original point, that we are, as a species, making decisions across the entire spectrum of human domains that are based upon some lack of reality.

TPP, you say << So knowledge is proof? Oh. Hang on is it the “reasoning” involved why you believe or conclude something? >>

Absolutely, knowledge is proof. Reasoning is the means by which we gain” knowledge”, not how we achieve “belief”.

Your reference to children as uncomplicated and not having the ability to “get it” is really interesting. If the ability to “get it” is intellect and intellect cannot be taught, then the only conclusion is that children have it from the outset and our society, at some stage, introduces things that inhibit the application of that intellect. Jeremy Griffiths in his book
“A Species in Denial” provides some compelling examples of this. I don’t agree with the books conclusions but the reference material is great.

In my view children are just little adults and should be treated accordingly.

Nicnoto, beautifully said.

Yuyutsu:

You asked, "How are you going to sustain that attitude in the first (and inevitable) crisis? You just cannot do it alone to overcome the attachment to the world"

I agree. For some, that's how religious worship works: it collapses the time it takes to reach the spiritual vicinity of who and what they worship. Prayer (and meditation) helps many. It reweaves the rent fabric of the universe. It releases people, in time, from the snares of lower energies.

People often ask what difference can one person make in the face of injustice, conflict, human-rights violation, mass poverty and disease. One answer could be citing the courage, tenacity, dignity and magnanimity of people like - Nelson Mandela.

In his lifelong struggle against apartheid, and his steadfast refusal to compromise his beliefs during long years of incarceration. His inspired leadership, upon his release, in the peaceful transition to a genuine, multiracial, multi-party democracy firmly founded on a constitution protecting fundamental human rights. His ready willingness to embrace and reconcile with those who persecuted him the most. He continued to fight for reconciliation before recrimination, healing before bitterness, peace before conflict and so on.

If people could live up to just one fraction of the standards people like Nelson Mandela set for himself, then Africa, and the world, would possibly be a far, far, better place.

OUG, I’ve always found it difficult to follow some of your posts so I’ll follow the advice of jinny and ignore format and symbols.

<< spindoc/quote..<<..I seem to have observed..something>>
is this specific..or generally speaking?>>

Yes, specific to a corolation between self inflicted stress and deterioration in our societies.

<< some-thing..<<I can’t explain,..yet the lack of explanation..causes me even more angst.>>not everything needs a reason...not everything can be reasoned...but anything can be explained >>

Disagree, if something is inflicting pain on our society, causing bad decisions and bad outcomes. We absolutely do need to interrogate, explain and resolve the causes. Anything less is to totally abrogate our responsibilities as humans, to self or each other.

<< ok lets rebut the presumptions >> Not my presumptions, just quoting Professor Stanley’s report, you’ll have to take such issues up with her.

<< confusing..<<intelligence..>>knowing facts..<<with education.>>ability to par*rot..back propaganda..!
then yes<<..this be/the cause..of so much emotional stress..and damage..!>>> Agreed.

<< <<There seem to-be..those of us who don’t even know..what we don’t know,>>>and dont need to know EXCEPT when the media needs to generate fear..for their NEXT adgenda item >>

Some truth however, I don’t think we can blame only the media; we need to look at what other entities have agenda’s. I can think of a few.

<< <<lets call us passive..“don’t get its”.>>let not..think we are the problem...as has allready BEEN TOLD its as simple as loving neighbour...*!>>

Are you suggesting that those who love their neighbour’s are immune to the effects of our toxic society?

<< <<We muddle along..with a grumble..and a groan>>.destracted..BY TODAYS..*SPIN POINT/ADGENDA >>

The whole essence of this thread is about why we accept spin from any source. Your faith is just as much spin/agenda to others as our lack of faith is to you.

Continued:

Continued:

<< <<as life..and society>>>or rather the media-spin/cycle..<<dishes out the sort of emotional stress>>>that puts us into the fight...or flight...FEAR mode...where flight..*is impossable...and fight gets you sent to a phycia_tryst..or their private prisons..and JUST_US..courts.>>

Partly agree, I think it is indeed fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) that make us vulnerable to being diverted from often painful reality. So, which entities within our societies generate FUD?

You reference the “media” several times, along with US courts and “our leaders”.

I assume that by pointing to these entities you are seeking to lay blame on them for our Toxic Societies?

If all humans suffer from “not getting it” at some level, then surely we are all guilty of making the bad decisions/choices that have caused our toxic society, which must include the institutions we have created and which we operate? This seems to be reflective guilt on your part.

Pointing the finger at others does not absolve you from your role, or the role of the entities to which you belong.

Perhaps you need to look a little closer to home to see if you or your religious affiliations have ever been involved in generating fear, uncertainty and doubt into our community?

Perhaps you need to see if your religious entity generates astonishing volumes of “stories” which are then presented as “knowledge” or are given the authority of divinity.

Is this not moving us further from reality, which might in itself be one “cause” of our toxic society? If on the other hand, you can claim to fix the problems of our toxic society, you might need to demonstrate where this is actually working. Otherwise religion might be seen as part of the problem rather than a solution.

"If, as stated by Professor Fiona Stanley we, as a species, are suffering dreadful emotional damage just by being part of our societies, what might be the “cause” of that damage?"

Most likely it is not mono-causal. Any number of social triggers could be acting against us collectively. We do have a habit of conjuring up problems beyond our current capacity to solve.

Over population is not just a numbers game, it is a psychological game played out at the expense of individual and social well being. The climate catastrophe being spruiked about the place has left great swaths of society feeling powerless.

The great cultural upheaval of the 60s and 70s which saw Western Religion loose its moral power over the masses, and the subsequent decline of The Church, came with a sexual revolution, a feminist revolution, but no moral revolution. The Church gave society a moral construct. Take that away without adequately replacing it, and society will suffer.

There is also the idea that these problems may have existed in previous civilised societies as a phase they were going through or as a mark of their decline. Our understanding of the here and now may be better understood through the there and then, perhaps.

Maybe what we need is a moral revolution, preferably secular, since returning to a dominantly faith based approach, history has shown, can be tumultuous.

nic..not nick-oh..
there is nothing of concern to god...[re loving a woe-man]

any concieved wrong..could..only be
that neither..has..[passed on their gift..*of life]
its this..'wrong'..that calls it sin..to spill the seed...

[i think its a man-thing..when men try to take their own problems...in hand..so to speak]..then the resultant mass-murder of billions of sperm.

and..im not about to make..a big point of it
[lest the first stone..be cast at me]

its absurd..that you are made to feel criminal
[or..a gulp...sinner]...for not passing on gods gift

if i was femail...i likely would...run the same way
those men...brutes..the lot of em...i certainly cant comprehend..why any woe-man..goes anywhere near us...but sadly they do..[so im told]

anyhow god loves you...[and there is a good chance...he is a she]
after-all...her first...'equal...was a-damm[man]...im still...hard of the opinion...that when he wanted a mate..like the beasts...have

she deliberatly..gave him..[XY]..his sister..{XX]

[ie..a clone......
so i infure..she was peeeved..big time]

of course the truth hurts
simular..she could rightfully be peeved..
re this blame*..eve/apple...thing

see she was still only a rib...when adam..got told
[i think it was arround the time...of the wanting a 'mate'..thingy]

anyhow..eve wasnt*..told..
the clue lies with the serphants words
[he asked did god forbid...[eve]..and god didnt
her brother/father/husband...master...did

besides under mosaic law..eve
could be forgiven,...a *sin...in any one of 5 different ways

ie a father may forgive...a daughter
or a husband..forgive a wife
or a brother...is able to forgive a sister

besides..look at who god..gave the gift
of creating a person to....

[what part of god..did she make adamm..from?]
[her mind]..it was a trick question...and some clay..!

George, not another revolution, please!

We already had several revolutions recently, all tumultuous as you can get: the communist revolution, the technological/information revolution, the "green" revolution... then you ask:

"we, as a species, are suffering dreadful emotional damage just by being part of our societies, what might be the “cause” of that damage?"

Obviously, the cause is that society is incessantly stirring, enough to make anyone crazy.

A good farmer plants a tree once. He takes the time to look for the best spot first, but he doesn't come later and say "oh, but if I move it 30 centimeters to the left then the balance of sun and moon will be better", or "I just found this better manure, so lets dig it up so I can replace the existing with this superior manure". Otherwise, the young roots will never develop.

So please be gentle, let evolution in, but please no more revolutions!

Trying to get things better is not the responsibility of society. It is up to each and every individual to improve their lives if they want to. So much in the material realm, how much more so in the moral and spiritual realms.

What society does is impose a "one size fits all" approach, then when it finds that it was not working it says "oh sorry, wrong size, lets all change it now".

Best is to get society, and the institutions which represent it, as much as possible out of our way and give us peace, then we can each grow, evolve organically and find our way at our own pace.

Yuyutsu:

This is the "zeitgeist" of our times: a turning inward of the Western mind. After centuries of looking to the outer world for our solace and power, some of us have begun to see the limits of a primarily external orientation. Some of us see how much has been sacrificed, how disempowered people have become, looking to wordly institutions for the answers that lie inside ourselves.

Lexi,

I beg to disagree that turning inward is specific to our times and I'm afraid that no "New Age" is underway. Through time immemorial, in both East and West, there were individuals who realized the futility of external orientation and worldly social institutions and turned inward, while the majority of society still turned outward.

One thing that is different today, is that we have all the information available about the option of turning in - while in earlier times, this information was kept closed in monasteries. However, just as there is more information about turning within, there is also more competing information about looking outside for solutions, so overall nothing fundamentally has changed.

The one disturbing phenomena that is unique to our times, which was never experienced before in known history, is the whizzing and chaotic pace of change. It drives people crazy, just as Spindoc exposed on this thread. However, let us not forget that while this is the biggest specific problem of our age, other ages also had different and as-serious problems that were specific to them.

To summarize, any time is a good time to turn inward and seek God. The doors to liberation are always open for those who wish to go through, but so are the doors to suffering. The choice between them is given and available for each one of us at each moment. As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end...

Yuyutsu, you are right about the pace of change. With information so quickly transmitted in the electronic age it seems humans in their endeavour to be readily 'contactable' also have to live up to the demands of that technology. Or the perception that one has to live up to it.

Young people often feel the need to text back a friend as soon as it is received lest they offend the other person. A friend in sales is constantly busy because it is no longer a world where you leave a message and someone gets back to you, the message is immediate and immediate action is also required.

On kids:
A bit of a reality check does not go astray. Kids need to learn about rejection and learn to take on board positive criticism from early on. Pampering people and protecting them from criticism, while stemming from a desire to boost self-esteem probably does more damage than having to face a bit of reality including taking personal responsibility. Some of these self-esteem social experiments such as the "you can do anything" and the "everyone is special" can be overdone without putting it in proper context.

By contrast other modern phenomenons have improved communication between people in terms of being more open about subjects once considered taboo. Kids and adults not being afraid to talk about difficult issues like depression and so forth. I met Jeff Kennet once and he talked about the positive benefits of the Beyond Blue campaign to raise awareness about Depression and the number of people that he meets in the street who thank him for changing their lives, making it easier to open up with family, friends or work colleagues.

Human beings are probably still in the process of adapting to the information age with all the peculiarities of the Net and other advances in communications technology.

Yuyutsu:

I did not mean to suggest that a turning inward of the Western mind has only happened now. Of course there were individuals in the past
that turned inward - the history of the world is the history of control - by institutions, individuals and ideas - over masses of people who finally rise up against the control and then avoid, or not, the temptation to try to control others as they were once controlled. All I tried to say is that many of us feel that something is wrong. There are critical choices that face us. Our environment now threatens us. There is global hatred which is a cancer that is growing and threatens the survival of the species. The only antidote is spiritual.

Pelican,

"Human beings are probably still in the process of adapting to the information age"

If monkies were subjected to the same experimentation, surely all animal-rights groups would come kicking and screaming. If rats were to be driven mad like that by chasing similar moving targets, the government would have fined and closed down that research institute long ago.

So why is it OK to subject humans to this cruelty? more so while no-one can even tell for how long this torture will last?

Instead of driving us all crazy, forcing us to invest and re-invest, financially and intellectually, in items that would become obsolete in 2-5 years, why can't scientists sit calmly in their ivory towers, with initial goals clearly defined, as they develop, optimise, standardise, test, integrate and document the technology, while simultaneously conferencing with social, medical, ethical and religious experts about the full range of implications of their technology on all aspects of human life, including its effect on both the young and the elderly, ensuring that no significant harmful side-effects would occur, then reconsider and reiterate until they all converge and white smoke comes up the chimney? only then should they expose the final outcome to the public!

Lexi,

The fact is, whether we like it or not, that the majority of people are not interested in spirit. Playing with crystals and chanting American-Indian songs is not a problem, but just watch it when spirituality calls for austerities, which it inevitably does... that will separate the sheep from the goats!

But do not worry about the antidote: Mother Nature will take care of the situation, Ecology itself will interfere and there will be a phase of purification, where world-population will dramatically decline, just as it occured in the past, for example during the black-plague or crusader wars.

Those who embrace the spirit, those who are not interested in wordly control, have none to be worried about. Even if the human species is extinct, there will always be other species to accommodate the needs of our spiritual evolution. Be not afraid!

Yuyutsu:

I'm more optimistic. I don't believe that our world will become so obsessed with the problems of hatred and aggression that it will allow peace and love to be regarded as soft and weak because our survival depends on their dominance. Hopefully as a generation, people are growing into their wisdom. I choose to believe that they are.

Yuyutsu:

I'm currently re-reading the Australian actress Diane Cilento's
book, "My Nine Lives." In it she tells her readers what her greatest desire is, I thought it might be appropriate to quote her here:

"My heart has become capable of any form.
It is a pasture for gazelles, a convent for Catholic nuns,
The tables of the Torah, and the Book of the Koran.
It is a theatre in the jungle, a red rock,
A kitchen where the dragon and the dove
Sit down and sup together.
I follow the religion of love,
Wherever the wings of love take me
That is my flare path and my way."
(Diane Cilento).

Dear Nicnoto,
Dear Nicnoto ALL have sinned, all, everyone. There is none righteous. If we think we can make it by our own effort, we kid ourselves. The penalty for sin is death, eternal separation from God who is Life, Light,& Love, all found through Jesus the door into the Kingdom of God. Jesus came to save not to condemn. We condemn ourselves by not trusting God. Hell was never meant for man but fur Lucifer and his followers. If we chose to trust the twisted word,"Did God really say" (twisted = wicked= to twist) over the truth we share the fate of the tongue twister, Eternal separation from light, life & Love only found in God. This is called hell by men. God told Adam not to eat from the knowledge of good and evil. Guilt came with the law introduced through Moses not through Adams disobedience. All we can do is allow the word of God to change our mind, thus a change of heart. As I said anyone who thinks that he can pay the price by being good is only kidding himself. You get my point exactly for we get our identity from our father and we judge our heavenly father in the light of our experiences with our earthly father and not according to accurate knowledge. We are told not to trust our experiences but to trust the makers instruction manual and as we have free will it is our call, not the right, or the left, or your father, or experiences in life. Every one is responsible for his or her decision not Jimmy Jones cos he made me do it.

To All the much higher educated then myself I challenge you to unravel the mystery of life for ALL that pertains to life is found in the bible, which the super intelligent progressive 21 century Intelligencia chose to ignore. Jesus said" My word is spirit and it is life to them that find it." God said " Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,for in the day you eat of it you shall surely die. As Adam did not return to the dust until he was 800 years old maybe our understanding of the word to "die" is twisted and the original meaning has been lost. As knowledge increases and we now have computers to unravel mysteries the job of unraveling the Mystery of God is now possible. The answer is not found in burying ones head in the sand and ignoring Gods Word. Then maybe we would "just get it". Have A merry Xmas all. I thank you one and all for your opinions as it has caused me to increase my knowledge to stay in the game of life.

Luke 12:49-53 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

Mark 7:9-13 Then Jesus said to them: "You think you are smart! You ignore the commands of God so that you can follow your own teachings! Moses said, 'You must honor (respect) your father and mother.' Then Moses also said, 'Any person that says bad things to his father or mother must be killed.' But you teach that a person can say to his father or mother, 'I have something I could use to help you. But I will not use it to help you. I will give it to God.' You are telling that person that he does not have to do anything for his father or mother. So you are teaching that it is not important to do what God said. You think that it is more important to follow those rules you teach people. And you do many things like that."

This Jesus you speak of is not the peace loving guru of modern interpretation. He was a social and cultural revolutionary questioning Jewish society.

What's more, your Jesus was a Jew and a Rabbi who's beliefs were founded in the sects of the Pharisees and Essene not to mention the rambling ravings of his cousin John the Baptist.

This Christian faith that has been created in the name of Jesus is so against what Jesus taught. Yet for Christians... "You think you are smart! You ignore the commands of God so that you can follow your own teachings!"

You just don't get it.

So how does that pertain to life you still haven't unraveled the mystery George, you have just stated that Jesus was just another revolutionary nut and ignored all historic evidence, and that solves nothing, for all the effects of the curse are still affecting flesh and blood people. That is not a solution as it is the problem. Your going to have to think outside the limits of the box you live in George.

Richie - I never said Jesus was a revolutionary nut. Why do you say I do? And where did I ignore history?

It is common knowledge that Jesus was a social and cultural rebel who did not approve of the abuses of faith done by Jews in the name of God. He was a great philosopher and orator with much wisdom on offer. Because he was also a Rabbi, he met with many people from all walks of Judaism. He was political being mindful of the synagogue of yore being also the seat of local Jewish Govt.: a place for Rabbis to talk about their flock. Jesus posed a threat to the Jewish aristocracy of Jerusalem because he challenged them and so threatened their authority.

As to the meaning of life: a common meaning that is meaningful to all? I think Descartes came close in his Meditation when he concluded that all he can know is that he thinks; 'sum res cogitans.' The rest could be illusion. The meaning of life then is to think.

I'm going to jump into this discussion again with my humble opinion, for what it's worth. I think that our conversation must shift away from the mass, finger-pointing that seems to pervade so much of it both here and in the media. Take politics as an example, it isn't Labor or Liberals who have ruined or are ruining the country. It's the tendency on so many people's parts to think that their way is the right way and that people who disagree with them are bad. It doesn't ultimately matter so much how people have degenerated into such mass disrespect for the rights of others who hold opinions different from our own. What does matter is that we commit, immediately to individual healing.

By that I mean we can disagree vehemently yet appropriately. Disagreement must be respectful or the disrespect itself poisons us more than either side's position in the argument ever could.

We musn't think that Australia is immune to the viruses that destroy
nations, any more than any of us are immune to the flu if it's coming through town. Many of the things that most of us were brought up to think "could never happen here," have already begun to happen.
Dangerous scapegoating, violent hate crimes, small-minded intolerance for the views of others.

At what point are symptoms seen as signs of critical illness? And at what point do we wake up enough to know that without treatment this illness will destroy us?

It is more important that we renew dignified and respectful dialogue with those who do not agree with us than we keep slavishly congratulating those who have the wisdom to see things our way.

Of course you're all free to disagree with me. ;-)
However, I'm hoping that some of you will "get it!"

<<By that I mean we can disagree vehemently yet appropriately. Disagreement must be respectful or the disrespect itself poisons us more than either side's position in the argument ever could.>>

Lexi,
This reminded me of a book on how Muslim should conduct themselves when differences arise over teachings. the book is titled The Ethics of Disagreement in Islam" (http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/TA_edi/Default.htm). It begins with a warning similar to yours and goes on to distill the lessons to be leaned from how the Prophet and companions settled disputes. Some of the points made, i think, have general applicability:

<<5. Commitment to God-consciousness and avoidance of personal whims made the pursuit of truth alone the goal of those who differed over an issue. It did not matter to anyone in a discussion whether the truth was voiced by him or by another person.

6. They adhered steadfastly to the Islamic norms of behavior during argumentation. They discussed matters politely and amicably, avoiding the use of vile and insulting language. Each was prepared to listen attentively to the other.

7. They eschewed hypocrisy and flattery as far as possible and exerted every effort to investigate an issue objectively. This practice, characterized by the seriousness of the argument and respect for the other person, would force the disputant into either accepting the other point of view or advancing a better opinion. >>

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/TA_edi/chapter3.html

Dear George,
I am not looking for foolish fights over words, I was hoping that someone with the right qualifications would unravel the mystery of God as all the answers are found in the bible, for mans benefit not to satisfy ego. The curse is very real and I thank God for men like Jonas Salk and Alexander Fleming and all other heroes who have thought out side the box of their limitations to push back the boundaries for mankind's benefit not ego massaging. If we understood the intent of the original meaning of the English word die found in Genesis 2-17 it would be a help in unlocking the curse of sickness for by His stripes we are healed Isaiah 53-5. We perish from lack of accurate knowledge and unraveling the mystery with the truth would be a great leg up for man kind. Then we would get it. God is Good.

richie..the words are pretty much self explained
jesus explained many...later swedenborg explained others

for egsample..where fire is mentioned...they mean passions
[all consuming..wild fire passions..to small barely lit passion]

die isnt dead...its the end of a current stage
like letting this thread die..when its posabilities are expired

recall jesus conquered dead..he 'died'...on the cross..yet he was still living..[is still living]..thus needs no peter/paul or mary speaking for him...his inner good voice speaks to us each..from within..just aas his[our father sustains all living[from within]

sickness is any state...not good
[often being healed by the stripes of sickness..
births a repentant heart]..that then has passion..to do the good

with more passion than it consumed..in doing its vile..[smouldering flax..that yet refused to quench]...

that in time became a wildfire..of good fruits...
simply with a bit of nurture..it bought forth good fruit

i think the key is to let thought flow with the imagry
if it brings forth a bad image..its not of god..[not from heaven]

Richie, what ever the meaning of 'die' in Genesis 2:17, it is not physical death, since Adam and Eve went on to live long lives. We know it cannot mean spiritual death because faith in God has lived on in ever increasing flocks. We know it cannot mean the end of pleasure because their is pleasure in the world to which humans were banished. We also know that even Eve did not understand the command since her discussions with the serpent does not have the double Hebrew usage of death as shown in Genesis 3:2. Moreover, she makes reference to the touching of the fruit being forbidden which it was not.

We also know that after they had eaten of the fruit Adam and Eve became self conscious of their nakedness and fearful of being seen by God as naked. Now, nakedness of itself is not evil or good, but it does in a more aware person lead to thoughts of sexuality. So it is safe to say that eating from the forbidden tree made Adam and Eve more aware of themselves, each other and their situation in Eden which they knew had become tentative, hence their avoidance of God.

All this awareness Richie! What happened to their innocence in which they were blissfully unaware? Surely, innocence died upon the eating of the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Grateful:

Thank You for that. As we pray and meditate, attuning our hearts and minds to positive things we become universal channels for the power of good.

I have no rational idea as to why the Book of Enoch is not a part of the Canon of Scriptures since it is quoted by the faithful and prophets of the Old and New Testaments. Not only that, it tells of the coming of Christ! Never the less, it is considered to be of parables and myth stories recounting the Heavens of Abraham's God. More than that Richie, it gives religious credence to my claiming that to think is the meaning of life for all, something which you discounted as a valid life meaning, without even thinking about it. How perfectly ironic.

Book of Enoch - The Watchers - Chapter 5
8 And then there shall be bestowed upon the elect wisdom,
And they shall all live and never again sin,
Either through ungodliness or through pride:
But they who are wise shall be humble.

9 And they shall not again transgress,
Nor shall they sin all the days of their life,
Nor shall they die of (the divine) anger or wrath,
But they shall complete the number of the days of their life.

And their lives shall be increased in peace,
And the years of their joy shall be multiplied,
In eternal gladness and peace,
All the days of their life.

yep... keep reading books written by people who you don't even know(personally) keep believing everything everyones tells you and not what your instincts tell you..

why is this thread focusing on Christianity? there are other Nations out there. Not just the different countries, but the different species.

No wonder you "Just don't get it."

for the ones who just don't get 'it'

1: ridicule
2: deniel
3: acceptation

those are the main. after that comes forgiveness, life, love, happiness.

only very few here have "it" and it is good to see they are trying to help others to see their 'its'.

when will be the time, that you realize how much you have, and not what you have not. maybe try to compare yourself to the starving children in Africa, and realize how good you have IT, then maybe you will stop fighting.

Jinny, if the contributors want to discuss the tension between intelligence and data acquisition through Christian eyes then who are you and who am I to challenge that? It's what they want to do.

It is also a valid approach to the OP. Abraham's faith has much to say on the matter of wisdom. It is valued highly and promises sinlessness for the faithful. A more important question for the followers of Abraham's God is to ask why they forsake wisdom in preference for love when wisdom is more important and the pathway to finding love?

Take Richie for example: She/he wants the truth from a qualified person who can explain the double death usage in Genesis 2:17 as a means to understand life's meaning. He/she thinks that because we have more data collected now than before and because we have computers we now have the means to find this truth that we didn't have before. Yet the answer was always there in the text and does not depend on computer technology, the acquisition of data (information) or indeed on truth... if only she/he would think and through that thinking gain wisdom and through that wisdom gain a decent life well lived.

It was innocence that was lost to humanity, that died upon the eating of the forbidden fruit, and only wisdom can replace it if we would but THINK. It is the essence of life, the meaning of life, the cause of data, information, computers and a myriad of other human generated activities. Thinking is the most important function of humanity.

"to think is the meaning of life for all"

How anthropocentric!

For a bat, life without a sonar is meaningless.
For the lion, life without antilopes.
For the pig, life without mud.
For the bear, life without honey.
For the miser, life without money.

And as already declared by Sage Papageno, the meaning of life is "trinken, essen, und schlafen" (drink, eat and sleep).

"Meaning" is a function of the mind, born of desire and an unnecessary imposition on reality itself. WHY MUST LIFE HAVE A MEANING IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Thinking and Wisdom are totally different things.

Thinking is a lower function: it is required for survival, like teeth to the tiger and camouflage to the chameleon. There are good thoughts and bad thoughts, practical thoughts, impractical thoughts and even delusional thoughts.

Unlike thought, wisdom is not a process, it is a presence.

Now to the most confusing term of all - LOVE:

Love can come at many levels, briefy:

1. Loving one's body.
2. Loving another's body, sexually.
3. Romantic love (drama and all).

Those first three levels are necessary for survival, so are intricately involved with thought. Further up, the more intelligent love becomes, the less thought is required.

4. Innocent, heart-felt compassion
5. Creative love
6. Knowing love

This last one is associated with wisdom, and finally:

7. God's love, transcendental and surpassing all thoughts and feelings.

Hence the source of confusion, why love is sometimes considered lower than thought and wisdom, but higher at other times.

George Jetson(as the robot of the servant addresses her Master.

I cannot change what is going on here, but I can try.

The bible has a lot of teaching. I studied it. End of the day, we belong to the same species, but fight with each other thanks to what our upbringing has done.

I hv not spend yrs on this forum as some hv. But I realized from the time spent here.. Only the ones who want a change, wiLl change. I keep my contact wt the elderly wt health issues regularly. I might leave.. Coz there is hardly any hope here... Besides, I am not here to upset anyone, just here to nake them realize how good they hv it, instead of complaining about everything under the sun.

;) there is always a brighter side of life, but it is for u and only u to choose that. not many will get it. But around the world, some do...

Hello Yuyustu,

You said, "Thinking and Wisdom are totally different things."

And I don't actually disagree with you.
Previously I said, "...if only she/he would think and through that thinking gain wisdom and through that wisdom gain a decent life well lived."

'...and through that thinking gain wisdom...' Hmmm... definitely I am treating thinking and wisdom as different things with one being used to attain the other.

But thank you anyway for the clarity of your sentence. If ever there was a person on this forum who had thought that they weren't different, they now know differently because you say so, albeit not why.

You said, "How anthropocentric!"

Epic LOL! I would love to know how you came to that conclusion. To claim the meaning of life is to think, is not an anthropocentric view necessarily. It could be if a person's thinking is inclined to anthropocentric conclusions, but equally a person's thinking could be inclined to beliefs in deep ecology.

You said, "Thinking is a lower function: it is required for survival, like teeth to the tiger and camouflage to the chameleon. There are good thoughts and bad thoughts, practical thoughts, impractical thoughts and even delusional thoughts."

I thought it was pretty obvious that the thinking I am referring to is higher order thinking on matters of morality, environmentalism, theology, philosophy etc... In fact, having just re-read my own thinking I am perfectly satisfied that there was nothing in my comments that would relate to base thinking such as... I am hungry or I am thirsty or I want sex or I am in danger etc... being the kinds of thoughts which derive life's meaning.

But what the hey... there is nothing wrong with a cheap shot now and then at the expense of another and their efforts to express serious ideas.

PS: On matters Anthropocentric, the belief in Abraham's God is an anthropocentric belief that speaks only to humans about humans and their relationship with god and their authority over earthly matters.

Hello again Yuyutsu,

You said... "Those first three levels are necessary for survival, so are intricately involved with thought. Further up, the more intelligent love becomes, the less thought is required.

4. Innocent, heart-felt compassion
5. Creative love
6. Knowing love

This last one is associated with wisdom, and finally:

7. God's love, transcendental and surpassing all thoughts and feelings."

Returning again to Genesis 2:17 and the question about what had died in Adam and Eve, I said, using reasoned thought, biblical reference, and matters of circumstance that what died was innocence. But you clearly disagree with this because you seem to think, without reasoned thought, biblical reference, nor using matters of circumstance, that innocence still exists in the adult and can be called upon for this compassionate love you speak of.

Care to explain what this adult innocence is that you speak of?
And whilst you are about it could you please explain what creative love is?

Dear George,

Did it ever occur to you to help an old lady or a lost kitten without hoping for a reward, or sexual benefit, or power and control? Nor even a ticket to heaven? Did your heart ever twitch on seeing the pain of another? or did your heart ever rejoice in their rejoicing? That's innocent love!

One level is to feel that twitch in your heart, but still be helpless about it (or as is often the case, complicate things even further by ignorantly trying to fix the situation without the necessary skill-in-action), while the next level is to actually be able to do something creative and intelligent about it. There is very little thought on that level, you just go ahead and do what is needed, you are serving as a channel, allowing God to do His work through you.

On matters anthropocentric, only humans can think, so claiming that "to think is the meaning of life for all" attributes meaning to human life, but denies it from all other forms of life. I was referring of course to the phenomena of thinking, not to its contents (thoughts: we eat apples, we think thoughts). As I explained, I do not attribute a meaning to life anyway.

On matters biblical, I do not consider the bible an authority, but since you asked, one Jewish interpretation for the double-use of the word 'death' is to inform Adam that he would still die even despite having eaten from the tree of life. Indeed, Abraham's god is anthropocentric, but at least he is not made of clay, or stone or silver or gold like the other gods of its time, so at least you must acknowledge that this was a step forward.

you don't get it because you do not appreciate what you have but you only think about what you don't have. it is a natural human behavior, we always want more. how about starting to appreciate every breath you take. that you are still alive, that your love ones are still alive.

no.. you do not get it, you complain, i complain about you complaining:P

there is so much to life.

all the debating and arguments. most of them are beneficial just from observing how we interact with each other.

fact is, we are not grateful enough. say a prayer, and thank god for what you have. count your blessings, everyone has many, you just don't realize it.. until you loose it.

this is why you are searching, because u lost it.

Hello again Yuyutsu,

On the matter of innocent love being akin with helping without reward, I disagree. Almost anyone who helps another in need is rewarded. It feels good to be good. Good self feelings then are the reward of good deeds. So there is nothing innocent going on there. Better to call it 'Good Love.'

On the matter empathy as expressed in the sharing of rejoicing feelings with another, or the turmoil of seeing another in pain, that too is not 'Innocent Love.' It has a name and I have used it already: Empathy, which is the ability to see things from another's perspective given their circumstances.

On the matter of there being very little thinking going into the intelligent and creative solutions to another's problems, again I disagree. What is it that decides this course of action from another? Thinking. What is it that decides the emotion and forcefulness of a response? Thinking. What is it that plays with ideas? Thinking. What is it that tells us to act immediately? Thinking. Do I need to go on?

On matters anthropocentric, I struggle to understand why you are pushing this point when God Himself is anthropocentric! Genesis 1:26. Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Dear George,

I am sad to hear that you cannot recall such an experience where you loved without expectations. Obviously results follow, obviously you will feel good as a result, but the question is whether or not you calculate your moves in advance in order to achieve that good felling, or ... you simply love: if you pre-meditate, if you expect anything in advance, including to feel good - then you lost your innocence and that love of yours would be downgraded to a romantic level 3.

Similarly, I am sad to hear that you cannot recall a time when you allowed yourself to serve as a channel of God without over-interfering in His work with your own mind's thinking. God's intelligence is infinitely superior than ours.

Regarding Genesis 1, the original expression, before softened by translation, is "and they shall tyrannise the fish of the sea and the birds of the sky...". As I mentioned earlier, I do not consider the bible an authority: the fact that the bible depicts God as anthropocentric does not imply that God actually is anthropocentic.

To love without expectation? No, I have never done that. Even the parenting that I did out of love came with expectations. Given that they were both intelligent and healthy, I expected them to become individuals capable of making their own decisions with a strong awareness of consequences and a strong, well thought, moral sphere to guide them. More than that, I expect them to be respectful, successful according to their own definitions of success, and maintain their welcomed and friendly contact with my good self.

As to opening myself up to God? Who is this God you speak of? How does this God relate to we humans or to be more in tune with your considerations: How does this God relate to we animals of earth, personally and in general?

If the Bible is not an authority on God, what is?
One final question: Do you believe that we are made in God's image?

Dear George,

No words can convey God, nor can the mind ever understand Him.

Nothing you could ever say can describe God, no attributes limit Him, so even best-intentioned expressions like "God is great" would fall off the mark because God is not limited by greatness (or smallness), or if you claimed "God created", that would presume that God is subject to Time, which is utter nonsense of course, or even claiming that "God exist" would have restricted God to the state of existence.

But we do use such statments as expressions of our love, devotion and gratitude to Him, like a child picking a flower from Grandfather's garden and showing it to him - "look Grampa, I found a flower". So such statements have their place, they Glorify God, but should not be considered as attempts to describe the reality of Him.

We can however, say that "God is not X", any X. God is not even subject to the laws of logic that apply to objects, for God is not an object. For example, "God is not non-existent" is also true (although it doesn't follow that God exists!).

Once you accept that nothing limits God, you must conclude that there is nothing besides Him, nothing other than Him, which implies... that we too are God!

One warning before proceeding: we mustn't conclude that we can jump off the Eiffel tower and fly away: God will not fall, but the humans which we believe we are, will!

We fail to recognize our divinity because we think of ourselves as humans. We identify with the human condition, it is AS IF God is experiencing the human (and animal) condition through our bodies and minds (but of course, it is nonsense to claim that God experiences: God is not subject to Time).

What stands between us and the realization of our true identity as God, is our mind. To be more in tune with God, drop that mind, silence it. To the extent your mind is silent, you can serve as God's channel.

Who is this God? It is you, George.

We are not god YuYu and I suggest you stand up to any god if they ever try to tell you so or give you orders. I certainly never put up with any bossy gods and never will.

Creators should, in my opinion, stick to creating and leave the administration to others more suited to the task.

And our creator left recently, wanted to go experiment with a new medium and mould some kind of self portrait over at the edge of some Oort Cloud coming from Upsilon Andromedae, said something about it all getting to difficult here and good quality clay being hard to find now along with the interference from other gods and the constant bickering and memos becoming impossible to tolerate.

Before leaving I asked what about your people. Poodles I was told, it was about poodles. After trying for a few thousand years it was decided to create something that could create them instead and then sit back and see how it all went since the last complete balls up had resulted in sheep.

So there we have it, one god inept at curls and there you are today thinking you’re a channel.

Lilith, I think you totally misunderstood what I wrote to George, so please read it again carefully.

Our bodies are created of course - by our father and our mother, and yes, they give us orders sometimes. Ourselves, however, we are not created. Perhaps there are, somewhere, some demi-gods that create: I don't know about them, I don't care about them and I certainly do not worship them. I wrote about God alone, the only One whom there is nothing but.

Also, God does not give orders. If anyone is bossy and gives orders, then they do so in their capacity as humans, not in their capacity as God.

I think you picked up from other people some pre-conceived ideas about God, please put them aside and read just what I wrote.

I thought I had your back there Yuyu.

Albeit a little late in the thread.

I have upset the oysters, they thought it was all about them, something to do with the original quote and how it changed over time.

Goes to show we should never discuss the words of gods.

Lilith,

George Jetson asked me some questions and I answered him.
This has nothing to do with the original thread, which is probably long dead and forgotten or any quotes that ran at the time. Otherwise I have no idea what you were writing about, so have a nice day!