Thanks Otokonoko, your words deny the existence of your God. For if there was a God which you Catholics claim to be all an loving god, a god of kindness and justice then how can he allow his paramount organisation the Catholic Church to habitually act as it has done. What is the point of it all. Base on your words, the Catholic Church is no better than say the Nazi Party of Germany pre 1945. I would think the only place for the Catholic Church, like the German Nazi Party, is the trash bin of history.
For the record within 3 days of my birth I was baptised by a Catholic priest, spent 10 yours of my life in Catholic Schools, before I escaped, attended mass, went to confession, said my prayers, had a Grandmother and Mother who were fervent Catholics and the end result the production of another atheist.

Sure, Paul, put words into my mouth. It's what I would expect from you, really. We'll see what those with a demonstrated capacity for deep understanding think, though. Only those with limited capacity to read and infer from texts, a very confined view of God and an extremely narrow understanding of Catholic belief (a group which includes many current Catholics as well as proud, self-proclaimed 'escapees' like yourself) could possibly take my words as an admission that there is no God. Still, you're welcome to believe what you like. Don't let me try to convert you.

No, Suze, I am not one to look at the world through rose coloured glasses - I'm not that type at all. What right do you have to deny my own personal experience? Am aware of your cultural relativism and anti-intellectualism so you shouldn't talk about rose coloured glasses yourself. I have not encountered any Catholic as scarred as you. In fact I don't think I've come across any bitter Catholic. We certainly do seem to be living on different planets to each other.

Paul,

Here we go. Crusades again? Defending Europe more like it, after prior invasions from the Ottomans. Why is it these gullible westerners fall for this one-sided view? If you would rather to have not had any reaction to the Ottomans, would you have rather lived under their culture then, as was their intention? Holocaust? Oh dear, you need to read up on some history details. I recommend you read up on Pope Pius XII and Cardinal Michael Faulhaber, the "Lion of Munich" as a start. Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, what are you on about, Paul? I guess the Catholic Church has to bear the brunt, afterall they are the largest institution in the world, therefore any easy target. Tell me of your favourite institution which has been of most benefit to the world? Catholicism is so inculcated within Western culture, you don't even realise it and just take it for granted. Even the bagel was originally Catholic - started in Poland. Also, the Inquisition - yes it was a bloody ordeal. The Pope at the time was critizing the torturing, but had no control, as it was a Spanish national thing with Isabella and Ferdinand. Now, are you going to go Spanish bashing? You're in need of some intellectual balancing mate.

Denial to justify sins? That's a bit rich. What am I exactly denying or justifying? Not to mention what you're denying.

Abusive remarks Constance? What remarks?
Was it the remarks I made about the Catholic church that you didn't like? Disagreeing with you doesn't make me abusive.

Maybe you haven't met any bitter Catholics before Constance, but I have met plenty.

So did Mary MacKillop it seems. She knew about the abused kids given 'special attention' by the priests.
She was punished for reporting the priest's activities.

I would imagine the vast majority of those kids, and all the others that followed were pretty bitter, wouldn't you think so?

Just because you personally haven't met anyone who is bitter about their experiences with members of the Catholic church, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Rose-coloured glasses perhaps?

"Here's the reality: the Catholic Church, being made up of a body of humans as flawed as everyone else, is historically as guilty of child abuse, torture, slavery, deceit and outright brutality as the rest of mankind. Corporal punishment in schools, rapes and cover-ups, inquisitions and wars"
Otokonoko, Those are your words. I said "your words deny the existence of your God. For if there was a God which you Catholics claim to be an all loving god, a god of kindness and justice then how can he allow his paramount organisation the Catholic Church to habitually act as it has done."
If the Catholic Church, is and has been as you describe, and I don't disagree then what is the point of its existence?
The biggest 'sin' of the Catholic Church is its record of maintaining ignorance through the use of superstition and fear.
An easy question. Is there a place called hell made up of fire and brimstone? I do believe that recently the Pope put a different spin on hell, not the one perpetuated for 2,000 year by the church but some new spin no fire and brimstone stuff, it no longer suits the times. An after all the Pope speaks with absolute authority on such matters! A good example of the use of superstition and fear.

Paul, once again you have failed to demonstrate how my words admit that there is no God. We can debate all sorts of matters of doctrine until the cows come home, but that would be futile. I believe one thing, you believe another. We both have a right to hold our beliefs, and we have a responsibility to refrain from imposing those beliefs on others.

Your talk of hell once again demonstrates a lack of understanding - or, rather, a narrow understanding of hell drawn from the arts and not from doctrine - which is fine: you don't believe in it anyway. That doesn't trouble me at all.