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The Forum > General Discussion > The Australian saint.....The Scottish Lady that made the best difference.

The Australian saint.....The Scottish Lady that made the best difference.

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I am surprised that not one Australian has heard of Mary MacKillop or understood the great Scottish Heart that this women came from, and not only that, what a great proud moment for all that makes us human to have this person here in this time of the great persons that make us.. the WE.

English Trash! And her love was for the indigenous people.

A saint! You bet.

Lets see how far you have come?
Posted by think than move, Sunday, 17 October 2010 10:46:59 PM
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Come, come... "I am surprised that not one Australian has heard of Mary MacKillop", I reckon that even dead Australians have a pretty good idea who this bird was by now.

What are you talking about?
Posted by The Blue Cross, Monday, 18 October 2010 1:48:28 PM
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The Blue Cross.

Iam just surprised that being the first saint in Australia,s history and the work she did, I would of thought at least the religious community of OLO or the indigenous people most of all, since the bird as you put it, helped them to no end mind you, but not even a thanks.

Well Well Well. Looks like the ungrateful and the not so godly faith people can not see this as a win for their sides, I guess not.

Sorry Mary! No one gives a rats about you. Oh well, I thought of you, even thou the main people of Australia she helped, don't care either.

Well if that's the case, maybe being thoughtful is not as cracked up as it used to be.

Typical.

TTM
Posted by think than move, Monday, 18 October 2010 4:18:23 PM
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You'll probably find that the 'religious' people on OLO are not Catholic. Also I don't think even one aboriginal person, to my knowledge, participates on this forum.
Posted by Rudy, Monday, 18 October 2010 4:26:41 PM
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Hi Rudy.

You'll probably find that the 'religious' people on OLO are not Catholic. Also I don't think even one aboriginal person, to my knowledge, participates on this forum.
Posted by Rudy, Monday, 18 October 2010 4:26:41 PM

You have got to be kidding right? Not one Catholic? or aboriginal person here?

I think you'll find that there's a few floating about.

But here,s a little link some might find interesting, but Iam not holding my breath. Smile.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=news&cd=8&ved=0CGQQqQIwBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smh.com.au%2Fnational%2Fancient-treasures-emerge-from-vatican-vault-20101016-16oag.html%3Fautostart%3D1&rct=j&q=mary%20mackillop&ei=fO-7TOS_D4yiuQPQwsi6DQ&usg=AFQjCNHU4VP_OvpYJmbrRLUfmpP0Z0znEQ&cad=rja

TTM.
Posted by think than move, Monday, 18 October 2010 5:03:27 PM
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Today the Catholic Church makes Mary MacKillop a saint, not so long ago they would have burned her at the stake as a heretic. How times have changed. Looking at the list of saints I don't know if its such a great list to be on anyway.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 18 October 2010 6:46:59 PM
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Well Paul 1405... there were a few doubters there. There may still be room for you?
Posted by The Blue Cross, Monday, 18 October 2010 7:01:08 PM
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What an absurd statement! I have heard of Mary Mackillop. I was captain of Mackillop house at my school. I would suspect that almost every Australian who has attended a Catholic school or put their children through a Catholic school (whether they are Catholic or not) in the past twenty years has heard of Mary Mackillop. They probably have a pretty good idea about what she did in the world, too. For the most part, they just don't feel the need to bleat about it like the media does.

How many generations out of Scotland do you have to be before you can be Australian? Am I, for example, a Welshman despite never having been to Wales?
Posted by Otokonoko, Monday, 18 October 2010 7:19:18 PM
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Well Otokonoko, Australians do rather cling to some long distant past don't they?

I've never understood why the 'Irish' here, that is, those with an Irish name whose grandparents, at least, were born here, think they have any connection to Ireland at all.

Some are not content to be 'Australian'.

Odd really.

You have to make up your own mind as to whether you are Australian, or Welsh.

If you were born here, I suggest you opt for the obvious.
Posted by The Blue Cross, Monday, 18 October 2010 7:26:22 PM
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TBC Don't get me started on the CATHOLIC CHURCH. The only nuns I knew had black habits and big sticks to belt kids with, was this person Ms MacKillop one of them. A saint that belted kids can't be half as bad as one that burnt people at the stake, he's on the list.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 18 October 2010 8:04:36 PM
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Think than move, I didn't say there were no Catholics on this forum. I said, "you'll 'probably' find they are not Catholic - - - - that means that maybe there could be a Catholic or two. Check out what "probably" means. About aboriginal people here, I am not aware of even one aboriginal person who contributes. Are you aware of aboriginal people here, posting day by day? If so, who are they?

I'm afraid this forum is NOT very representative of Australia's population. I get the impression that the vast majority of people here are white, middle to right wing and middle aged to older males with old fashioned out of date social attitudes.

The ONLY reason people have heard of Mary Mackillop is because of the sainthood issue. If she had never been a candidate for sainthood, she'd have remained an unknown except amongst the Sisters of St Joseph. I was educated by the Sisters of St Joseph for the first 5 years of my schooling, and if it wasn't for the sainthood issue, I wouldn't have remembered her name.
Posted by Rudy, Monday, 18 October 2010 8:21:26 PM
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My daughter went to a MacKillop School, so we knew all about her.

Mind you, at all the school events over the years, where Mary's great deeds were praised, I never recall hearing about the fact that she was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for about six months after she tried to blow the whistle on a paedophile Priest.

I guess some things never change...
Posted by suzeonline, Monday, 18 October 2010 10:13:16 PM
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Thanks to all for your comments.

What Australian is I think, is a very open prospective. See the long standing Ozzies will like the many boat loads from all over, including my own connection in that far away land, and a lot of the new arrivals in the 1900 to lets say 1960,s were the wogs of this new land. Some of the Colonial Australians that had convict connections or there abouts, felt they were being in invaded by these new comers,

( Mary Mackillop did not see this indifference with race as some clearly do in this world )

and most of the cultural differences of the past were clearly seen with some resentment I might add.

I also know for my side of the family, that many Australian new borns where told by their parents to up-hold their connection to the home-land where their mums and dads came from, and as you will see in today's Australia, most still keep a little bit for their true homeland of old and is celebrated in the likes of Greek day or the Irish what ever, Welsh day and so on.

Even the indigenous have there day to celebrate and so they should, and the mixed feeling will continue until maybe another 2 to 300 years, and it will take that long before many of the old and out of date practices as you mentioned, gone and forgotten.

"I'm afraid this forum is NOT very representative of Australia's population. I get the impression that the vast majority of people here are white, middle to right wing and middle aged to older males with old fashioned out of date social attitudes.

You know Judy, I wonder if there is any Australian saints that can fall in the same fields as this Scottish lady?

And lets not forget the Scottish people again! that helped the Tasmanian indigenous people out when genocide was in full swing.

Multiculturalism In Australia is still filled with the aged and those distanced memories that are still as you said, fresh in the minds of the many.

TTM
Posted by think than move, Monday, 18 October 2010 10:36:04 PM
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THE CANONIZATION OF MARY MACKILLOP(Part 1)

Two or three nights ago, after a day of writing and reading, editing and posting on the internet, research and what I have come to call independent scholarship, I settled down with my after-midnight snack. I watch TV at that time to help turn my brain off and so get into alpha waves after what has been a busy day of ratiocinative activity. I chanced upon a movie entitled The Magdalene Sisters.(1) It was set in Dublin in 1964 and portayed the sexual, physical and emotional abuse by nuns, priests and others in church-run residential schools or asylums, incredibly horrific Dickensian institutions.

Part of the reason for making the film, wrote the director Peter Mullen, was the need for closure by the victims of these institutions. The film received the British Independent Film Award in 2003 and the Golden Lion Award at the Venice Film Festival in 2002. For my money, for my television and cinema tastes, this film deserved both awards.-Ron Price with thanks to (1) SBS1 TV, 14 October 12:05-2:15 a.m. and Sarah Lyall, “Report Details Abuses In Irish Reformatories,” The New York Times.com, 20 May 2009.
Posted by Bahaichap, Monday, 18 October 2010 10:43:26 PM
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Part 2

Where will I start with my comment
on this moving account of fallen and
abused women needing redemption
for their so-called sins in old systems
of homes maintained by religious orders
in Ireland’s Roman Catholic Church?
How can believers reconcile their faith
with these historically oppressive facts?

Where will I start on this special day of
the canonization of Mary MacKillop?
The declaration of heroic virtue in 1992?(1)
Your beatification on 19 January 1995?(2)
The decree of 19 December 2009 by the
Congregation for the Causes of Saints who
issued the papal statement recognising that
second miracle: the complete and permanent
cure of a woman with lung and brain cancer?

Will I mention that by October 2010 your
official website was receiving an average of
9,000 visitors per day? I’ll have to see that
1994 film Mary, the 2008 play Her Holiness
and that musical of 2008 Mary MacKillop for
Australia’s first saint: what does it all mean?

Perhaps--that one can not use the words and
deeds of mortal-men as a standard for the true
understanding and recogniition of God & His
Prophets. It’s a very difficult lesson to learn
on life’s path of faith, eh Mary? Putting one’s
trust in God has never been easy, has it Mary?
I wish you well wherever you are leaping and
soaring, perhaps, in the land or ocean of light!!

1 This is a process internal to the church and conducted by some of its senior members.
2 Pope John Paul II performed this beatification. For the occasion the acclaimed Croatian-Australian artist Charles Billich was commissioned to paint the official commemorative portrait of Mary MacKillop.

Ron Price
Posted by Bahaichap, Monday, 18 October 2010 10:46:26 PM
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I think there's a widespread desire to be different. I don't begrudge the Irish the right to call themselves Irish (even if they, nor anyone they have ever met, have spent so much as a day in Ireland). Nor do I begrudge the Scottish the right to call themselves Scottish, the Chinese the right to call themselves Chinese, and so on.

I do find it amusing that they take it upon themselves to take others with them. What did Mary Mackillop call herself? I'm not sure that we'll ever know for certain. The one thing we know is that she was born in Australia (or, more accurately at the time, in Victoria).

I'll reiterate as well. I knew of Mary Mackillop before the sainthood issue. I suspect the students of various schools named after her, the participants in various sporting houses named after her and many of the people who pray in the various Catholic facilities with statues and paintings of her did as well. So the sainthood issue isn't the ONLY reason people know of Mary Mackillop. It isn't the only reason anybody cares, either.
Posted by Otokonoko, Tuesday, 19 October 2010 1:49:51 AM
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I have heard all that I need. Thank-you.

This is the greatest land, isn't?

Now I feel more human than ever before.

Smile.

TTm
Posted by think than move, Tuesday, 19 October 2010 8:31:06 PM
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Suzeonline,

Gee, you don't make a lot of sense here, Suze. For all your criticism of the Catholic Church and complaining about your Catholic upbringing that I've read - why did you send your child to a Catholic School?
Posted by Constance, Tuesday, 19 October 2010 9:12:24 PM
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Constance, you obviously haven't read many of my comments on OLO as I have explained many times before that I had a choice of a terribly crowded older public school with discipline problems, or a new Catholic school with smaller classes and the subjects my daughter wanted.

My town only had 2 high schools at the time, so choosing the Catholic one was the best at the time.
It had nothing to do with religion at all.

At least I commented on the goodness of Mary MacKillop, and stuck to the topic Constance, where you only wanted to vent at me on this thread.
Posted by suzeonline, Tuesday, 19 October 2010 10:08:33 PM
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Suzeonline,

Just could not help spotting a hypocrite, that's all. I don't read every topic on OLO.

Of course Mary MacKillop is a terrific role model - it goes without saying, especially when there are very few around. So I did not find the need to bleat. I went to a St Joseph primary school run by the the brown joey nuns (Mary's order)and have very fond memories. The nuns and the school were fabulous.
Posted by Constance, Wednesday, 20 October 2010 9:44:26 PM
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I am happy to see an Australian catholic woman saint with such a wonderful track record of good works, and willing to take on the patriarchal hierarchy that runs the catholic church and continues to hide paedophile priests and bishops.

I just wish more catholic women in the church would stand up for these abused children and tell the priests, who won't allow women any authority in 'their' church, that they won't stand for this behaviour anymore.

We could all use Mary MacKillop as an example for how we should stand up for the children.
Posted by suzeonline, Wednesday, 20 October 2010 10:14:03 PM
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A question for Catholics. Did Mary Mackillop ever abuse children put in her care, by abuse I refer the the common practice of Catholic nuns to physically abuse children with straps, belts, canes etc, I observed this common practice in Catholic schools in Sydney in the 1960's.I was reliably told this had been the practice of nuns from the time they set foot in Australia. I don't know if Mary Mackillop was such a nun.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 21 October 2010 12:18:26 PM
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I do think the canonization of Mary MacKillop is as much about boosting the failing image of the Catholic Church in Australia as it is about the good works of Ms Mackillop. The Church has enlisted some big guns in the Australian media, Allen Jones for one, to help make us all fell warm and fuzzy about Mary and I'm sure the Church does wish to benefit from all that warmth and fuzziness. You never know I might even start thinking the Pope's a good bloke, even Cardinal Pell, well I can't go that far.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 21 October 2010 12:44:26 PM
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Paul,

I think you need to consider the context of the times then for all institutions. I can only remember in primary school having my hand hit once by a ruler and taking my hand away to avoid being hit. I can't remember what I did to get it. But hey, didn't give me any trauma, even though I was a sensitive child.

Stories of nuns whacking children I think were largely blown out of proportion. There was a good story on Compass once about nuns arriving directly from Ireland by boat in their confined dress habits (in the turn of the 19/20thC I think) to replace a German male religious order who were teaching in the Kimberley, because they were too stern. The nuns arrived with no money and lived in tin sheds for a while (would have been damn hot). One of the nuns who died of TB in her early twenties after working for TB patients in a hosptial in Broome was given something like a state/city funeral when she died because of her selfless work.

Also, the aboriginals who were taught by the nuns were interviewed and all spoke kindly of them. And one man said if we ever got into trouble that it was only a small whack on the bum, but harmless, as he spoke laughingly. These aboriginals were all now elderly of course and it also showed a school reunion, and one nun and her dog checking in on the health and keeping company to one very elderly fellow.
Posted by Constance, Thursday, 21 October 2010 8:35:00 PM
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Oh come on Constance! Either you were a very saintly child at school that you never upset the nuns, or you have a very selective memory!
I was at school with the nuns (Dominican) for 12 years during the late 1960's and the 1970's.

In that time several girls in my class were smacked at least daily behind the legs or on the hand by rulers wielded by the loving nuns.

Their favourite thing was throwing the duster at us while they remained seated at the front of the class. Many is the time I copped it in the face or head!

If we were really 'bad', we were sent to the Principal Nun for a sound smacking with a thin wooden rod. She used to go quite red in the face with the exertion.

If we went home and complained to our parents, they would punish us again for upsetting the nuns!

I am not saying that ALL nuns were violent- but I would say at least 75% of them were at my school.

And as for the Brothers at the boys Catholic college near by.... that was even worse for my brothers!
Posted by suzeonline, Friday, 22 October 2010 12:01:22 AM
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While we certainly expect more humane behaviour of those who are ostensibly 'people of God', let's not forget that corporal punishment was once a significant part of schooling life - religious or otherwise. I'm too young to speak from experience, but my parents assure me that a good whacking was a regular occurrence in their strictly public schooling lives.

Like I said, though - we should expect better from those who claim to be the keepers of the faith and the righteous ones in our society.
Posted by Otokonoko, Friday, 22 October 2010 1:41:27 AM
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Well Suze, your experiences were different to mine as you obviously hold a lot of hate and seem very emotional and appears you have not recovered, therefore your one-sided view of Catholicism. Obviously, the boys got it worse with corporal punishment. But as Otonoko states, it did not only occur in religious schools, and they were different times then.
Posted by Constance, Saturday, 23 October 2010 1:17:51 PM
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Constance <"Well Suze, your experiences were different to mine as you obviously hold a lot of hate and seem very emotional and appears you have not recovered, therefore your one-sided view of Catholicism."

I don't hold hate the nuns and priests of my childhood Constance, just disappointment that a group pf religious people who put themselves out there as pillars of society and as 'God's handmaidens' should treat children the way they did.

The other public school staff of the day did not represent their 'merciful, forgiving' God while dealing with the school children in their care.

And I am not alone in my feelings, not by a long way.

Maybe you look at your days with the 'lovely' nuns through rose-coloured glasses?
Posted by suzeonline, Saturday, 23 October 2010 1:29:41 PM
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"But as Otonoko states, it did not only occur in religious schools, and they were different times then."

This is exactly the kind of denial that Catholics have used to justify their sins, everything from the crusades to the inquisition to their part in the Nazi holocaust.
How anyone can think that the Catholic church has in some way been a positive for mankind is beyond me.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 23 October 2010 2:03:41 PM
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And what you are doing, Paul, is demonstrating the kind of denial that so many use to somehow absolve themselves of the brutality that is humanity. Cast all of the blame of past wrongs onto the Catholic Church, or Muslims, or Jews, or communists and you can wander around feeling all innocent because you're not one of them.

Here's the reality: the Catholic Church, being made up of a body of humans as flawed as everyone else, is historically as guilty of child abuse, torture, slavery, deceit and outright brutality as the rest of mankind. Corporal punishment in schools, rapes and cover-ups, inquisitions and wars - they have been there for it all, as have non-Catholics. The only thing that distinguishes us and makes us suitable whipping-boys is that we have pretended for so long to have the moral high ground.
Posted by Otokonoko, Saturday, 23 October 2010 4:18:00 PM
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Thanks Otokonoko, your words deny the existence of your God. For if there was a God which you Catholics claim to be all an loving god, a god of kindness and justice then how can he allow his paramount organisation the Catholic Church to habitually act as it has done. What is the point of it all. Base on your words, the Catholic Church is no better than say the Nazi Party of Germany pre 1945. I would think the only place for the Catholic Church, like the German Nazi Party, is the trash bin of history.
For the record within 3 days of my birth I was baptised by a Catholic priest, spent 10 yours of my life in Catholic Schools, before I escaped, attended mass, went to confession, said my prayers, had a Grandmother and Mother who were fervent Catholics and the end result the production of another atheist.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 23 October 2010 5:42:25 PM
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Sure, Paul, put words into my mouth. It's what I would expect from you, really. We'll see what those with a demonstrated capacity for deep understanding think, though. Only those with limited capacity to read and infer from texts, a very confined view of God and an extremely narrow understanding of Catholic belief (a group which includes many current Catholics as well as proud, self-proclaimed 'escapees' like yourself) could possibly take my words as an admission that there is no God. Still, you're welcome to believe what you like. Don't let me try to convert you.
Posted by Otokonoko, Saturday, 23 October 2010 6:07:59 PM
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No, Suze, I am not one to look at the world through rose coloured glasses - I'm not that type at all. What right do you have to deny my own personal experience? Am aware of your cultural relativism and anti-intellectualism so you shouldn't talk about rose coloured glasses yourself. I have not encountered any Catholic as scarred as you. In fact I don't think I've come across any bitter Catholic. We certainly do seem to be living on different planets to each other.

Paul,

Here we go. Crusades again? Defending Europe more like it, after prior invasions from the Ottomans. Why is it these gullible westerners fall for this one-sided view? If you would rather to have not had any reaction to the Ottomans, would you have rather lived under their culture then, as was their intention? Holocaust? Oh dear, you need to read up on some history details. I recommend you read up on Pope Pius XII and Cardinal Michael Faulhaber, the "Lion of Munich" as a start. Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, what are you on about, Paul? I guess the Catholic Church has to bear the brunt, afterall they are the largest institution in the world, therefore any easy target. Tell me of your favourite institution which has been of most benefit to the world? Catholicism is so inculcated within Western culture, you don't even realise it and just take it for granted. Even the bagel was originally Catholic - started in Poland. Also, the Inquisition - yes it was a bloody ordeal. The Pope at the time was critizing the torturing, but had no control, as it was a Spanish national thing with Isabella and Ferdinand. Now, are you going to go Spanish bashing? You're in need of some intellectual balancing mate.

Denial to justify sins? That's a bit rich. What am I exactly denying or justifying? Not to mention what you're denying.
Posted by Constance, Saturday, 23 October 2010 6:16:40 PM
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Abusive remarks Constance? What remarks?
Was it the remarks I made about the Catholic church that you didn't like? Disagreeing with you doesn't make me abusive.

Maybe you haven't met any bitter Catholics before Constance, but I have met plenty.

So did Mary MacKillop it seems. She knew about the abused kids given 'special attention' by the priests.
She was punished for reporting the priest's activities.

I would imagine the vast majority of those kids, and all the others that followed were pretty bitter, wouldn't you think so?

Just because you personally haven't met anyone who is bitter about their experiences with members of the Catholic church, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Rose-coloured glasses perhaps?
Posted by suzeonline, Sunday, 24 October 2010 1:37:06 AM
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"Here's the reality: the Catholic Church, being made up of a body of humans as flawed as everyone else, is historically as guilty of child abuse, torture, slavery, deceit and outright brutality as the rest of mankind. Corporal punishment in schools, rapes and cover-ups, inquisitions and wars"
Otokonoko, Those are your words. I said "your words deny the existence of your God. For if there was a God which you Catholics claim to be an all loving god, a god of kindness and justice then how can he allow his paramount organisation the Catholic Church to habitually act as it has done."
If the Catholic Church, is and has been as you describe, and I don't disagree then what is the point of its existence?
The biggest 'sin' of the Catholic Church is its record of maintaining ignorance through the use of superstition and fear.
An easy question. Is there a place called hell made up of fire and brimstone? I do believe that recently the Pope put a different spin on hell, not the one perpetuated for 2,000 year by the church but some new spin no fire and brimstone stuff, it no longer suits the times. An after all the Pope speaks with absolute authority on such matters! A good example of the use of superstition and fear.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 24 October 2010 7:03:16 AM
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Paul, once again you have failed to demonstrate how my words admit that there is no God. We can debate all sorts of matters of doctrine until the cows come home, but that would be futile. I believe one thing, you believe another. We both have a right to hold our beliefs, and we have a responsibility to refrain from imposing those beliefs on others.

Your talk of hell once again demonstrates a lack of understanding - or, rather, a narrow understanding of hell drawn from the arts and not from doctrine - which is fine: you don't believe in it anyway. That doesn't trouble me at all.
Posted by Otokonoko, Sunday, 24 October 2010 12:22:17 PM
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