*So according to Houelly women resent being at work and they'd much prefer to be financially dependent*

Petej, I'm just old enough to remember the end of those times and
how things were. There were indeed plenty of women who made it
quite plain, that they were not getting married, to go out to work.
Husbands commonly handed over their paychecks to the wives, so
they still had money to spend.

In fact it was made quite plain to me, that the expectation was
that I would provide the resources to pay the bills, what my
wife earned for casual work, would be her private spending money.
That really pissed me off, as my dream was to be self employed and
that required capital.

What has changed is expectations. The average Australian house
is now twice the size that it was in the 70s. Its also twice as
flash. To pay for it, you need two salaries. So women are now
forced to work to pay for those expectations, unlike before

Pelican:"One statistic does not reflect the future particularly when in all other age groups women are earning less than their male counterparts. "

No, but when combined with the other data, such as educational attainment and type of work being done by each gender, it suggests a trend. Trends can often be extrapolated fairly usefully, at least into the short term. When Treasury does it we call it a Forecast.

Successful control of any mechanism requires a negative feedback capability. That can be as simple as a float valve in a toilet cistern which simply shuts down the flow when the cistern is full. without it, the toilet would overflow and no doubt someone would be unhappy.

I believe that the Time article shows us that the cistern is full and we need to stop filling it.

There are undoubtedly some groups of women and men who are disadvantaged, but young professional women are not one of those groups, so why do we need the state to support them with "affirmative action" policies and the like?

pelican,

'This is just the way it was for various social reasons and historical perceptions of roles. '

Yes. But such a generous appraisal is rarely heard. Men were paid more because it was expected they would have to raise a family on their wage. Married men would also be paid more than single men, and be less likely to be laid off.

But the feminist re-writers of history would have it that it was the misogynist men selfishly keeping all the money for themselves. It seems in this version of history, we never hear about the man getting the pocket money to spend from his wife out of his wage (as my father and all my friends fathers did) but instead we are asked to believe it was always the woman being dependent on the father's whims of whether she can spend any money.

My Mother used to tell me she would go out with my father and never spend a cent even though she earned much more than him at the time. One night she discovered pokies, and kept asking him for more money until she had lost it all. She remembered it never occurred to her back then that she could have used her money.

It was the way men AND WOMEN were socialised, but we only ever hear about the poor victim women kept out of jobs and paid less money. Never shall we hear the men getting handed out pocket money from their wives and paying EVERYTHING on dates.

petej's 'social engineering', like the feminist 'societal expectations', is always portrayed as a creation of, and a benefit to, men only. The reality is men and women benefited and lost out at times, and were both responsible for setting the roles.

Houelly, I did not twist your words. My post was accurate.

Here's some of the things you wrote in the thread:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"the whole topic is irrelevant"

"it's almost as if you chicks don't want equality because then you would have to lose the victim card"

"we never hear about child neglect from mothers"

"there are gender roles"

"this is about what we are biologically optomised to do"

"women if given more choice, would earn even less than men"

"It's women's choices about their lifestyles that is the reason for their inequality"

"I love generalisations and stereotypes"

"if feminists succeed then they'll even enforce a society where men are massively disadvantaged, do you think they'd stop there?"

"Social engineering in line with what I have argued is the desire of a LOT of women"

"this is the ridiculous state of feminism today"

"Women aren't any happier"

"Previous social engineering suited more women than the current one"

"they resent time away at work"

"I hate it when people act as if women are paid less on average"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I ask that everybody read ALL the quotes listed. The thrust of my post to Houelly was that he's an old fashioned man, living in the past, in fear of female equality; a man who loves to complain about "male" inequality, and happy to have women live in the past and be financially dependent.

The quotes show he has very old fashioned ideas about his beloved old fashioned gender roles.

That's ok, he's 100% entitled to any opinion whatsoever. But Houelly old chum, please don't falsely accuse me of twisting your words. Your words speak loud and clear, as shown.

petej,

It's fun to take words out of context isn't it.

"the whole topic is irrelevant"
Yes, based on the invisible transfer of wealth and womens choices regarding being primary carer.

"it's almost as if you chicks don't want equality because then you would have to lose the victim card"
In response to female posters being threatened by any discussions of any subsection of women being paid more than men.

"this is about what we are biologically optomised to do"
Not even my quote, and put up as an example of women who aren't happy with men being primary carers, something which I have stated more women should be happy to accept. Hardly old fashioned.

"women if given more choice, would earn even less than men"
True. As a result of being out of the work force being primary carer and having their partner earn enough for this to be possible. This would mean more men earning more and more women out of the workforce.

"this is the ridiculous state of feminism today"
Birth Rape? You think that's not an unnecessarily inflammatory description?

'in fear of female equality;'

Wrong. I am all for equality of choice which I think women have. I just think the remaining inequality in average wages is due to women preferring the primary carer role rather than being discriminated against.

'The quotes show he has very old fashioned ideas about his beloved old fashioned gender roles.'

What, like wanting more men to be the primary carer and being slightly resentful of women always getting first dibs? I'm actually arguing for the other side of gender roles to be broken down. I want equality for men in the nurseries that would enable the average pay gap to disappear, but lament women are stopping this from happening.

'a man who loves to complain about "male" inequality,
Where? Most of my objections to feminism is the victim positioning of women, where I see women making a choice. I make very little comment on men as victims at all.

Just one simple example of petej's handy work. He uses the quote...

"I hate it when people act as if women are paid less on average..."

the important missing words are '...due to discrimination'.

ie. I accept that on average women are paid less, but don't think it is due to discrimination.