In yet another puzzling decision, handed down in a Melbourne court, a young ‘P’ plater has avoided being sent to gaol for killing a teenager as the judge feared for his safety because he is a ‘cross dresser’.

So it appears fine to kill someone, so long as you have an excuse as to either, why you did it, or, why you should not be punished.

The victims of crime must be wondering why they bother trying to make a difference.

Boy, is it little wonder society is crumbling.

Add that case to the chick who got off for drink driving because she had a long commute home from the pub near her work!

The cross-dressing is just something the media emphasised to gain our attention. The young man has Aspergers Syndrome. The judge would have been looking into the whole picture and given that this is a young person, this was an accident, and he far is more vulnerable due to having Aspergers Syndrome then he will be at risk by being placed into a regular gaol facility. If there had been intent to kill the judgement would have been different. It was his girlfriend he accidentally killed in the car accident. Where's the compassion?

Compassion - whats that?!? String the bastard up, right rehctub?

There is no compassion in the world anymore, or at least not from this forum anyway. Sad really.

welcome to a world of moral relativism guys. You could not expect anything else but inconsistency. If you can get away with killing a baby in the mother's womb why should you be able to cross dress and murder. Little difference really.

I'm afraid our friend rechtub has a fairly black and white view of the world.

In this particular case, I believe the judge made the only decision he could have in conceding there was no suitable alternative. This young person, because of his effeminate appearance, would have been an instant target. Compounding this is his Aspergers, which would have led to him being mercilessly manipulated and bullied. It would have been a total disaster to incarcerate him in such a setting - not only for him, but also for the staff in the corrective institution who would have had their hands full protecting him.
If the sentence is to fit the crime, then to have placed this young man is such a setting would have been to penalise him way beyond what was initially intended.

That's a bit of a leap runner. For a start, cross-dressing does not have anything to do with murder and how relevant is cross-dressing except that people might find it 'weird' so there must be something wrong with a person who cross-dresses in the first place. That is the assumption you are implying. Lots of guys dress up these days because it's more socially acceptable than it once was to do so. Some males like to wear make-up, they do more things like pluck their eye-brows, wear fake-tan, 'pink' shirts, lip-gloss, wax all parts of their bodies (except the hair on their head), wear perfume for 'men', wear jewellery - so don't assume you've got the market on relativism runner. If a male has a desire to cross-dress then this is his choice and it does not connect him in any way to being a murderer, and anyway, lots of men like to dress-up and feel beautiful and this is perfectly fine and this is their choice if they wish. So you said in the same context, cross-dresser and murderer? How did this become murder judge runner? The young man 'accidentally' killed his girlfriend and so I assume this was someone he loved. How this can be compared to terminating a pregnancy is the biggest leap of all and is an entirely separate issue involving another set issues around moral rights, personal beliefs, and issues about freedom of choice.

dotto

Secular humanism preaches moral relativism. This means that lying is no longer lying, perversion is no longer perversion, killing the innocent is no longer murder. The point I was making was that the judges are always going to come up with inconsistent and weak rulings with this philosophy. Victims of crime are always going to be the losers because modern psychology makes the criminal the victim.

If people are so callous that they can't see killing the unborn is murder then we have no hope of justice with a cross dresser killing a friend albeit accidentally. The cross dresser ruling is no better than many other soft rulings being handed out by the courts.

Rehctub finishes his post by stating

'Boy, is it little wonder society is crumbling.' Put it down to the world view and philosophies many in high places including judges have adopted.

Does anybody here have the full transcript of what was "actually said" in the court judgment? I'm NOT talking about what was said in a newspaper/tabloid report of the case, but the actual court judgment, in total.

Until everyone here knows exactly what the court decision entailed, in full, then nobody here is qualified to pass judgment.

Yes, very good point TZ52HX

Ok, so I was wrong, he actually had 'two' excuses as to why he should not go to gaol.

But, had he been a normal person, without 'hang ups' and without a disorder, then chances are, he would be doing time for manslaughter. Right! Now I get it. Not!.

Either way, in my opinion, it's a joke and one that the parents and family of the victim have to live with for the rest of thier lives.

Meanwhile, there may well be people in gaols searching high and low for either a disorder or a hang up for which they may be able to use as an excuse.

rehctub,

This tragedy resulted from an act of stupidity - there was no criminal intent.
Whether or not a custodial sentence would serve to deter young men (and women) from speeding and taking risks is open to question.
The issue here is the type of disorder and the effect it would have in a cloistered environment where predatory behaviour is likely to occur. The judge's decision rested on the fact that the option of incarcerating this person was likely to result in an appropriate custodial sentence morphing into an excessive one.

I can better that rechtub.
Wet day on big highway road crew police tow trucks all recovering a car.
Ignoring the reduce speed ,dangerous corner and flashing warnings it was a mess.
road crew put 40 klm speed limit and traffic control out.
A driver with one other on board doing more than twice the speed rolled.
ambos, me, road crew police towy all ran just making it.
It frightened us all, badly, police seemed to be in shock, the event in court months later had ten coppers watching.
Judge Irish name, did not let me quote from my diary, this was years ago, but not diary filled in an hour after not evidence?
Charged person was able to enter into evidence his passenger was unable to be there.
She was in county Clair in Ireland?
Not guilty was the verdict every court day such things happen more often than not justice is blind deaf maybe dumb too.

After the death in custody of an Aboriginal Transgender Woman put into the mens prison against regulations who died after about one week in prison it's no surprise that a judge has to take into account the likely fate of a prisoner into account might balk at general prison.

After all a recent queensland study found that 46% of people like the one in question have been literally bashed and that 38% have been attacked with a knife bottle stone or other weapon.

Now there's lots of ways we can address this, after all with perhaps 5%-10% of all Australians crossdressers or other forms of Transgender a seperate section in one of the countires prisons being set aside for Transgender and Intersex people (1 in 100 to 1 in 60 people is Intersex) is not unreasonable.

We do have a responsibility to ensure that when prisoners are rleased as almost all of them are one day, that they will be rehabilitated not institutionalised and made more criminal. Their safety is the governments responsibility as is their rehabilitation.

Clearly not enough has been done to stem the massive anti-transgender violence in Australia, so we can blame those who comit such crimes and who do too little to stop them for the judge having to suspend this sentence because the prisons are too dangerous for Transgender prisoners.

This young person, because of his effeminate appearance, would have been an instant target.
Poirot,
Are you inferring that he would be a target for heterosexual prisoners ? I would have thought only the twisted whackoes would crank up an interest there. It's a weird, weird world alright !

Ok, so we are beating around the bush.

My point is, had he been a normal every day guy, without hang ups, without a disorder, would he have gone to gaol.

Yes/No?

a normal every day guy, without hang ups, without a disorder, would he have gone to gaol.
rehctub,
that goes without saying. I'm convinced it'll only be a matter of time now that a murderer will get away by saying it was the weapon not his action that killed the victim. Yet if someone killed a murderer in self defence than that person will be up for murder. Now that we have a weirdo majority in government it'll get even more intolerable. Exiting to look forward to indeed.

Individual, you'll be surprised when you research the subject how different the real world is from the way you have been brought up to expect it is on these matters.

For indeed the people generally accepted to be heterosexual are the ones most likely to commit rape in prisons. People considered heterosexual also regularly visit transgender sex workers. These aren't rare things but common. All too often openly transgender people are raped and then bashed or murdered by 'heterosexuals' who often hate the fact that they are knowingly attracted to transgender people, view this as wrong and then blame the transgender person for them feelling this way and hurt them for it. It's the same with Gay bashers as studies have shown 83% of gay-haters are sexually aroused when shown gay erotic images. These things have been known about for well over 50 years and subsequent studies keep confirmming the results.

Those who hate crossdressers transsexuals and gays are usually either that way themselves or attracted to them. And not in a 'i thought they were chicks' kind of way as so many trials have shown the attacker knew the transgender status of the victim long before hand and often was cruising specifically for transgender or gay people. And governments have known about these rates of rape assault and the like, the high suicide rate of trans teens and even young trans children because of the way they are treated and done nothing. Even though there are thousands of years of transgender and homosexual traditions amongst our Indiginous peoples the government has been happy to let them all die.

I simply think it's a great shame that somebody can start a post like this which for all intents and purposes appears to be a thinly veiled attempt to denigrate a human being who obviously has genetic problems. Possibly a greater shame is that the moderators actually let it run.

Who was it Rechtub, Runner and Individual that made you judge, jury and executioners? Perhaps there should be hate laws in place for people who create malicious inflammation against such cases where a person's rights and circumstances were duly noted by the trial judge.

And Rechtub, you said ....."But, had he been a normal person...." Rechtub, as a mental health practitioner can I ask you this, could you please define "normal?" Every one of my clients who some would judge as anything from the sublime to the ridiculous and even the bazaar are simply a normal variation of nature.

Perhaps you may like to study the words of the Buddha and from them you might learn to calm your anger, quell your fears and control your emotions. Then come back and write something nice :-)

Aime>>.." Rechtub, as a mental health practitioner can I ask you this, could you please define "normal?"

Most likely the tousands of every day people who walk past your office/clinic but don't come in, I would suspect.

You, like most others simply won't address the issue and try to verbally bash me. Good luck, many have tried so give it your best shot.

Now ANSWER THE QUESTION!

Bayne MacGregor,,
Those who hate crossdressers transsexuals and gays are usually either that way themselves or attracted to them.
They're not heterosexual then are they ?.
Aime,
Judge & Jury ? Isn't that what you're doing with Rehctub & me ? We're not denigrating anyone, we're stating facts. As a mental health practitioner you'd hardly ever be exposed to the normalcy of daily life. How then, even if explained to you, would you understand normal. If, as you state, mental health is merely a normal variation of nature then why the need for your meddling with their mind ? p.s. A Bazaar is a market as far as I'm aware. Maybe I'm going mental.
Rehctub,
I couldn't tell who is normal but I sure can point out several fruitcakes here. Many of those "mental health" patients are clever enough to exploit the ignorance of the bureaucrats & manage to go through life without having to do a day's work. Mental ? I don't think so.

individual,

It seems to me that this person's Aspergers disorder was possibly the main contributing factor in the judge's decision - and the fact that it was compounded by his effeminacy.
Do you have any real knowledge of how Aspergers affects a person's perceptions? Probably not.
Although, people with Aspergers are often very intelligent, they are also extremely literal - they are often naive, extremely gullible and easily manipulated (and, therefore, unlikely to have the faculties to display exploitative ploys with bureaucrats).
To incarcerate this person in a dangerous predatory environment for a crime without intent would have been akin to throwing him into a lion's den.

Poirot,
Point taken, but why don't the "experts" address many other mental disorders such as greed ? or isn't that a disorder ? What of the disorder which makes some people steal off others or the disorder of fanaticism ? I don't dispute your questioning my knowledge of this particular disorder. I frankly know nothing about it. But, what if one of those intelligent but naive people turns around & exploits the ignorance of many mental health workers ? I've watched it & it simply made mad with frustration as to how these "experts' were being manipulated at everyone else's expense, time & monetary yet when pointing this out to the experts one gets treated like an idiot.

Individual, sure then most people who call themselves heterosexual are not heterosexual, which of course matches the data from the last half century which finds that exclusively heterosexual people are pretty uncommon just like exclusively gay ones (which is why many gay people have natural-born kids!) and that the majority of people are actually varying degrees of bisexual.

Also Greed is not a mental illness, but the psychopaths likely to act on that greed are. It's worth noting that other mental illnesses can contribute to criminal behaviour as 80% of prisoners tested in Australia are mentally ill. The majority of prisoners in Australia also have brain damage to the impulse-control parts of the brain... perhaps a ban on many sports could reduce the brain-injury caused crime rate? Perhaps our prisons should be more like rehabilitation hospitals? A deterrant threat has no value for someone with brain damage to the impulse control part of the brain, only therapy using neuroplasticity science to teach the injured person to rewire the brain such as is used to give a sex life to paraplegics would work, and if we want them to leave prison safe for the community we need to do that.

Poirot, if being Asperger was considered more of an issue than being Transgender then the judges decision might be the right one for the wrong reason. I do not disagree about the danger to an aspergers person of being imprisoned, but when the rape and assault rates of Transgender people are so high I would be very surprised to find the Aspergers rates higher. We know that 38% of male to female spectrum Transgender Queenslanders have been assaulted with a weapon. 46% assaulted without a weapon. One study found that 50% of Transgender people had been victims of rape. Do you have stats to show Aspergers is at greater risk?

individual,

I am not a mental health expert, however, I have a reasonable knowledge of behaviours attributed to the high end of the autistic spectrum - and this includes Aspergers.
Many of the behaviours that you mentioned in your last post are merely characteristics commonly displayed by ordinary humans and would be considered within the normal range.
My point is that someone with Aspergers is less likely to have to ability to manipulate the "ignorance" of mental health workers. People with Aspergers have a much narrower concept of things that you and I take for granted. For instance, many are unlikely to "get" sarcasm because they are so literal. Tell them to "go jump in the lake" and they will look around for a lake.
Because of this they are easily manipulated.

BM >> It's worth noting that other mental illnesses can contribute to criminal behaviour as 80% of prisoners tested in Australia are mentally ill

Good point you raise there, so, why are they doing time and this guy is not?

Is his disorder given preference when a judge hands down a decision?

Still nobody has answred the quest as to why our system punishes the 'normal people', yet, makes excusses for those with disorders/hang ups'

WHY?

rehctub,

Obviously, from the information you put up in your last post - (80% of prisoners in Australia are mentally ill.) - they are being punished...answered your own question there.

As I asked earlier, "Does anyone here have the "full transcript" of what was "actually said" in the court judgment?".

Then, and only then, are we qualified to pass judgment on the judgment.

Actually it's my wife asking that; she wanted me to ask it again here as nobody here seems to know what was actually said (other than what's written in tabloid stories on the subject).

Rehctub, this person wasn't protected from jail for being mentally ill. That is not what happened.

This person was unable to be sent to jail because the justice system can't keep transgender people (and Australian scientists have found at least two genes linked to Transgender!) safe in jail, because the government has been terrified of stopping the daily assaults of Transgender people because actually treating all Australians as Equal would upset the 4% of bigots in marginal seats that want to keep the ability to bash transgender people with impunity.

Peoples safety in jail is the governments responsibility as the prisoners are suppossed to come out better than they went in, but that, while lowering repeat crime, doesn't win votes as well as 'tough on crime' punishment measures that actually make crime worse.

Transgender people do not get equal treatment women get anti-violence television campaigns to protect them (which is good) but they have a far lower risk pf being bashed than 46% but the government refuses to save Transgender peoples lives. The governments failure to address this is one reason why this has happened. The failure to run prisons to actually reform criminals is the other. But that costs money, (especially since we started privatising the industry so prisons have to make profit!) and costs votes because scaremongering politicians would rather use the 'soft on crime' false argument even though they know more people will be raped and murdered from the 'tough on crime' option than reform options.

But if we had proper policies to protect Transgender people from violence and we had a seperate prison for them then this sentencing problem wouldn't have occured.

Bayne MacGregor, So what about isolation? Why is this not an option for TG people?

Poirot, I simply pasted another posters info.

So now we have two questions.
1. Would a normal person have been sent to gaol?
2. Why do some with mental illnesses do time while others don't?

rechtub,
Long isolation causes psychological damage. If Transgender people were Isolated in jail they'd come out more angry and dangerous to society than before they went in. Prison is suppossed to make them safer not worse.

Studies show Transgender people, including those who try to hide themselves as Cisgender, are more than 3% of the population, maybe as much as 10% there'd be enough prisoners in the system to have one jail or a wing of one set aside for transgender prisoners. That would work.

We have 3 questions not 2.

1. Would a Cisgender person go to jail (Transgender is normal, just less common than Cisgender.) Maybe. Many people avoid jail for many reasons. In fact for years Transgender people got worse treatment not better. Often those who rape bash and murder Transgender people get lighter sentences just because their victim was Transgender!

2. Why do people with some mental illnesses and brain damage go to jail? Because some are less vulnerable in jail and are likely to survive prison. Because the legal system has not caught up with the effects of mental illness and brain injuries on behaviour. Because the government refuses to use rehabilitation and treatment before they commit crimes to ensure they don't commit the crimes in the first place. Because past concussion is ignored as a cause of domestic violence, assault and more because we'd have to change some beloved sports to protect women and children! Because politicians prefer the easier votes with 'tough on crime' nonsense that worsens crime. Because the media doesn't inform the public about the real way to reduce crime as its easier to get ratings out of fear anger and desire for vengeance.

3. Why has the government done nothing to protect Transgender people? To deal with the dangerous violent bigots who attack them? To end acceptance of anti-transgender bullying that drives 40% of Transgender youth to attempt suicide! rechtub the next secretly-transgender kid who kills themselves because of bullying prejudice and fear of assault may be a member of your own family! Why is this allowed to happen?

Rechtub, you start your post by saying...."In yet another puzzling decision, handed down in a Melbourne court, a young ‘P’ plater has avoided being sent to gaol for killing a teenager as the judge feared for his safety because he is a ‘cross dresser’."

With all due respect Rechtub, I've read about and heard this story done to death on TV and radio and never once have I heard the person concerned referred to as being a "cross-dresser." The ABC reported it this way....."the court heard Baldwin suffered from a gender identity disorder...." The same article also mentions that the person "wants a sex change."

The word "transgender' has been bandied around on this post quite a bit, but transgender is simply an umbrella term to describe a person who exhibits characteristics of the opposite gender and anything from exhibiting those traits in an almost unnoticeable form, possibly cross-dressing and perhaps all the way through to an insatiable desire to change their biological gender. I therefore suggest that since the person in question desires "gender reassignment surgery" (the correct terminology as opposed to "sex change" which is very sloppy and possibly biased reporting) then this person must be considered a "transexual" and not a "cross-dresser."

This case involves much more than simply one where a person gets a 'get out of gaol free' card because "he's" a cross-dresser. Besides as TZ52HX's wife so rightly asks, "Does anyone here have the "full transcript" of what was "actually said" in the court judgment?" Well, no we don't so what's the point in starting this post in the first place?

I couldn't help but get the underlying feeling Rechtub that your post has more to do with a "cross-dresser" escaping a custodial sentence (because you despise such people) more than being about a perceived miscarriage of justice. Would you feel the same way if the person was Intersex?

Aime, I heard it on a news broadcast 'sky' the moring that I posted the story and it was about the fact that he was a 'cross dresser', that's all that was reported.

Now you are right in that I don't know all the facts, I admit that, but, I am also right in saying that if one is 'normal', then they stand a higher chance of going to gaol than one who is not. Go figure!

>>Well, no we don't so what's the point in starting this post in the first place?
Boy, this counts for many of the threads on OLO.

BM,>> Because some are less vulnerable in jail and are likely to survive prison.

OOOK, so, if you're considered to be 'normal' and, you commit a serious crime, watch out, as you don't have a leg/excuse to stand on.

Boy we live in a toppsy turvy world, don't we!

>>If Transgender people were Isolated in jail they'd come out more angry and dangerous to society than before they went in

Interesting comment!

The thing that continues to stick out for me is that there are a lot of things where jail does not seem like a good solution.

I'd rather only see incarceration used to protect society from those considered to be an ongoing risk (or who would not comply with other alternatives).

Keeping someone in jail
- Costs taxpayers a lot of money
- May well help them develop networks with other criminal's
- Stop's people from meeting other responsibilities (providing for family, being their for children, spouse etc)
- Does not seem to do well in terms of rehabilitation
- Does not seem to do well as a deterrent for some crimes

Should we be sending someone to jail for a really stupid driving mistake or are there better way's of meeting the need for justice.

R0bert

rechtub

Transgender people ARE normal. They have existed in every culture throughout human history. Australian scientists have found Transgender Genes. The opposite of the prefix Trans in the english language(and other latin influenced languages) is Cis. So the correct term for not-transgender is Cisgender. So please try and use manners and not be so offensive as to use normal as the opposite of transgender suggesting Transgender is ABnormal when it is merely less common. 1 out of 10-20 people is hardly rare let alone abnormal.

Now you seem to think Cisgender people are somehow hard done by because they have so often bullied bashed raped and murdered transgender people or let others get away with that resulting in imprisonment in this case being too dangerous. Oh dear the poor Cisgender people. Getting a little hurt because of the consequence of the thousands of dead kids they contributed to the deaths of directly or by negligence.

Maybe when 38% of Cisgender people have been assaulted with a weapon and 46% have been bashed then you would have some sort of point. Maybe Cisgender people who get upset about this court decision should consider doing something to stop the anti-transgender violence?

Sure the legal system needs massive reform. Proper facilities for Transgender prisoners is one good option. Stopping the daily violence against Transgender people is another. We could even do both. Don't you think we should do both? And what about evidence based rehabilitation of prisoners, after all almost all of them get released some day right? And preventative treatment of concussion and brain injuries? We could do both those too. Don't you think we should do thm too rechtub?

Rechtub said......"Aime, I heard it on a news broadcast 'sky' the moring that I posted the story and it was about the fact that he was a 'cross dresser', that's all that was reported."

Not disputing that Rechtub. Don't have access to sky. However, if sky actually referred to the person concerned a "cross-dresser" then I'd have to accuse them of grossly poor and possibly biased reporting and I'd also question if they were an accurate source of news.

You also say...."but, I am also right in saying that if one is 'normal', then they stand a higher chance of going to gaol than one who is not. Go figure!"

Yes. I agree with you in principle and I hear what you're saying, but consider this particular person for just one minute and here I'll ask you two questions....

1)This person is in a vulnerable position. With a gender disorder and looking effeminate, is it right to subject the person to a life in gaol of abject horror, denigration,rape, torture and most likely death either by an inmate or by their own hand? The latter scenario is a very real outcome.

2)How many times have you driven 25k's over the speed limit? How many times in your youth (provided you've passed that milestone) have you driven dangerously and nothing has happened? Hell, when I was a much younger person, I drove over the blood alcohol limit, I sped, I drove using unsafe practices and at 18-19 years of age never once considered the effects it could have on my passengers. I was young, I was invincible and a part of me didn't really think that in the blink of an eye it could all come unstuck.

This poor soul was is just 21 years of age now! Do you really think gaol is an option for someone who is really only exhibiting their over confidant youth?

I hear your original question and appreciate it at first glance, but this issue is far more complex than a simple case of dangerous driving causing death

I wish I could talk to you and discuss a particular client I had who was mortally depressed and who's only wish was to die. I would talk about this person who had gone to great lengths to obtain the necessary finance to undertake gender reassignment surgery. An horrific story in itself and only because this person was denied a job because of her gender (TS) and denied the love of her family and siblings. She was treated as "abnormal" and I first met her in the depths of despair in a mental health facility. Prior to that time, she had driven at great speed "sort of hoping" that she would become simply another speed related statistic, but her on-board desire to survive had allowed her to live. If she'd killed someone in her frenzied state, as a judge Rechtub, would you have sent her to an even worse life in gaol?

Aime, whether or not in this case the person was not a crossdresser it remains true that crossdressers are transgender and are often the targets of violence and ridicule. The work on Transgender Neurology and Intersex throws up increasing evidence for neurological bi-gender identity phenomena which predicts and explains the vastly more common Transgender forms of Genderqueer and Crossdressers etc.

From a human-rights perspective the Yogyakarta Principles cover the lot and any reforms need to address the entire of the Transgender and Intersex populations needs.

Aime
To Q1. The fine must equal the crime. I say to you, is it right to NOT send this person to gaol, but, to send another of sound mind and without a disorder?

2. No, I don't think this type of 'accident', and that's all it was, should be punnished with gaol and,I agree with RoBert on this one. I think jaol should only be there for 'hardened criminals' with little or no chance of rehabilitation.

I also am in favour of capital punishment, but only in the very strictest of circumstances. Not bassed on 'sufficient evidence' or on the findings of a jury.

My whole point is, and has always been, why do some go to gaol and others not.

We live in a world whereby we continually punish those who are capable of being punnished, but we tend to feel sorry for those who are at risk.

Where I come from, a crime is a crime. You do the crime, you do the time.

I think many will see this as a 'get out of gaol free card' and, there may well be some people in the professions making a killing out of keeping people with disorders/hangups out of gaol. A bit like a good lawyer. No accusations intended.

Have you watched a film called 'Primal Fear'. If not, I invite you to, it is great viewing. A hungry lawyer who will do anything for money and a guy with hang ups who.....

Ah rechtub. I see where you are going wrong now!

Ok lets view 1.
Same punishment for same crime. It's a great idea isn't it? It's one reason why i believe all fines should be in percentage of income/assets not a fixed number of dollers. Otherwise the rich suffer less from a fine than a poor person so the rich can afford to commit crimes more.

So lets view this as some simple hypotheticals.
Criminal A, cisgender, goes to jail for 3 years. During that time they get a little bad treatment because the jails are not well managed. They hate being in jail and when they get out they are bitter but try their best to go clean afterwards so as not to go back to jail.

Criminal B, Tansgender, goes to jail for 3 years. During that time because they are transgender and are put in with the cisgender male population they are constantly bashed and raped and bullied and are given lifelong psychological trauma.

Actually the last case i heard of involved an Aboriginal Transgender woman put in the male prison on a minor drug offence and they were DEAD IN 6 DAYS! She got punished far more than other prisoners put in for minor drug offences, she got indirect capital punishment for being transgender!

Criminal B has been punished more than a million times more than Criminal A. If however criminal B went to a jail that was equipped for Transgender people with a seperate transgender population where they were not in personal isolation then criminal B would be punished the same as criminal A. Where there is no such fair option than there is no way that Criminal B can be punished the same as Criminal A! Which is why B couldn't be sent to jail. Make sense now rechtub?

Of course punishment is utterly and totally useless for the majority of brain-injured prisoners anyway as they aren't going to be scared out of criminal acts by the threat of prison cause the impulse control part of their brain is damaged so it will never ever do any good and imprisonment will help them become worse criminals. So we need to replace most prisons with rehabilitation for brain injury centres to teach them how to have self control by learning how to use other parts of their brain to handle self control. It's the only sane answer and no-one wants to admit that most even violent criminals are so because of brain damage from accidents football and sport injuries or assaults!

Rechtub, you said...."My whole point is, and has always been, why do some go to gaol and others not."

The answer is quite clear. In this particular case, the judge determined that the defendant would be subjected to unspeakable horrors if given a custodial sentence. The judgement appeared to be based on the fact that the person concerned had a genetic disorder that made that person 'different' to the general run-of-the-mill male 21 year old.

Ideally, there would be special institutions for such people where they could serve their time in relative safety, but because of the generally low incidence of these situations, the State has most likely determined, based on the availability of finances, that building or providing such a place is too expensive and costly to run and therefore, without such a special institution, the only place for that person is living in the knowledge that one slip-up means gaol will be a very real option.

I regret that a young girl lost her life and having been through the untimely death of my partner who also died in an MVA, my heart goes out to her family, but just because her friend made a tragic mistake on a dirt road doesn't give any of us the right to demand justice of the most terrible kind.

BM>>Same punishment for same crime. It's a great idea isn't it? It's one reason why i believe all fines should be in percentage of income/assets not a fixed number of dollers. Otherwise the rich suffer less from a fine than a poor person so the rich can afford to commit crimes more.

I think you will find that more crimes are committed by poor, than by rich people.

A crime, is a crime!

And remember, nobody goes to gail without committing a crime. In any case, I think jail should be only for hardened crims and, it should be a hole in the ground. The worse the crime, the deeper the hole.

Criminals have forgone their rights once they committed the crime. Get this clear, I don't think what this guy did warrented gail, but that's not what my beef is about.

Aime, if you don't like the gail, don't commit the crime.

It really is that simple.

I have never been to gail, nor had my father, my mother, in fact, any of my family.

>> 'different' to the general run-of-the-mill male 21 year old.
So I am assumming this is your example of 'normal'! Right?

"Aime, if you don't like the gail, don't commit the crime."

Rechtub, do you really think this person deliberately set out to commit a crime? Especially the crime of killing their girl-friend?

At the tender age of 18, I was caught out on a dirt road causing a very memorable incident. I was in a hurry to get somewhere and misjudged a bend in the dark. My car ended up hanging over a steep embankment above a deep water hole. I had a passenger at the time and we could both have easily been drowned that night. I shudder when I think about it and the consequences that could have arisen from it, but did I set out to do it on purpose? Absolutely not!

The tragic event that led this young person before the courts and saw an innocent girl killed was just that. A tragic accident, unless intent was presented before the court, but since we weren't there and don't have a transcript, we'll never know what really happened that night.

I hear what you say in regards to 'do the crime, do the time' but in this instance, I'm not at all sure you could call it a crime. To me a crime involves intent. In other words, you intend to commit a crime and then proceed to do so.

From now on, this conversation will probably go round and round in circles. You're most likely not happy with the result but the law is the law and the judge made a decision and I believe rightly in this case. In all law, there's never a complete case of black and white, open and shut. The law is not perfect, but it's the best we have.

"I think you will find that more crimes are committed by poor, than by rich people."

LOL per capita figures? And remember the rich afford better lawyers so get out of punishment easier. But regardless fining a poor person 1000 dollers can malnourish their children while a millionaire won't notice the loss. So thats not equal punishment is it! Make fines a percentage of income/assets and everyone becomes equally punished regardless of wealth! Surely thats ok by you? Equal suffering for rich and for poor criminals?

"I think jail should be only for hardened crims and, it should be a hole in the ground. The worse the crime, the deeper the hole."

To what purpose? Incentive to behave? The brain injuries i mentioned stop people being prevented by fear of jail, thy don't have impulse control! But if we get everyone with those injuries and spend the money to give them back impulse control we can save money on incarceration AND stop the crimes BEFORE they happen! Less rape less assaults and less murder? Surely you agree that would be good?

Especially as we release almost every prisoner anyway so wouldn't you rather those that get out of jail have their brain-injuries treated and have less people in jail because they had theirs treated and never comitted the crime in the first place?

"Aime, if you don't like the gail, don't commit the crime.

It really is that simple."

Someone who has an interferance with their decision making can't have the threat of jail impact their decisions though can they! So it's not that simple at all! If we want the crime rate lower we must deal with the reality of judgement-impairing injuries.

rechtub, why not start campaigning for brain-injury rehabilitation if you care about the justice system so much? Make a real difference?

Aime>>> Rechtub, do you really think this person deliberately set out to commit a crime? Especially the crime of killing their girl-friend?

I said,
Get this clear, I don't think what this guy did warrented gail, but that's not what my beef is about.

Now, which part of this is unclear to you?

BM, expensive lawyers are only part to blame.

It's more the experts that find something wrong with the offender that often cloud the judgement of judges.

There are many 'get out of gail free cards' money is only one.

BTW, millionaires are often tighter with their money than the poor and, they miss the $1000 just as much.

In any case, they are the ones who provide most of the free legal council for the poor, along with most other hand outs they receive.

But once again, we are getting off track, as my thread has nothing to do with wealth. It has to do with one being punished, while another is not.

Ok rechtub, I agree lets not drift off to rich vs poor stuff...

So what about responding to the rest of my posts?

rehctub,

You did use this instance for your example.
If, however, this person had committed a grievous crime with intent he would have been incarcerated in whatever institution was suitable, especially if he was deemed a danger to the community. The fact that this didn't happen was due to a weighing up of the pros and cons of this singular situation.

Dear Rehctub,

I guess the statue of Justice wears a blindfold
for a reason. Justice they say is blind. But
the law is the law - and in this particular
case the Judge saw extenuating circumstances in
making her decision. I don't know that much
about Aspergers syndrome - or the young boy's
cross-dressing disorder, obviously the judge
knows better. It's very easy for people to make
judgements, without knowing all the facts.
I imagine however, that it must be extremely
difficult for anyone involved in a car accident
(and that's what it was - an accident - not
premeditated murder), knowing that you caused the
death of another human being. In this case - his
girlfriend. Perhaps is punishment in itself?

Anyway, I think that your premise that the boy's
"cross dressing" is a "get out of goal" free card
is totally inappropriate - and you're making
a judgement here without knowing all the facts
involved. It also of course must be difficult for
the girl's family. However, it was an accident.
And the judge probably took all of these facts into
account as well as the young man's "Aspergers."

Whatever, happens in the future - this young man will
have to live with the fact that he caused the death
of another human being, for the rest of his life.
Perhaps that's a worse sentence, than anything the
courts could have given him?

Ok, let's make it very clear.

What I said from the beginning was that the news report stated that this guy avoided jail due to being a cross dresser. That's all it said.

At no point have I said that the crime deserved a jail sentance and you are all very aware of that.

At no point have I involved brain injuries, someone else has.

If you all go back and look you will see that I clearly ask, why does this guy get off for being a cross dresser. That was the news report. I didn't say it, I merely repeated what I heard.

Most of you have tried to minipulate the story, even to the point of accusing me of being judge and jury.

I will ask one more time.

Why do normal people get gailed, while those with hangups or disorders get off?

This has always been my question.

Dear rehctub,

I see now that you are stating specifically that you have gleaned your information and come to your conclusions based on a "news report".
First of all, just because a news editor happens to run with a particular line of reasoning doesn't mean that the reporting is not skewed in a particular direction. Often judgments are not reported in even-handed fashion. News outlets are notorious for slanting public opinion in whichever direction holds the demographic of their audience - or with a line that will create controversy.
It doesn't necessarily hold with your later sweeping statement that only "normal" people get jailed - which I don't think you really believe anyway.

I tried rechtub to make this a sophisticated discussion, mot to manipulate you at all. So you ask a simple, simplistic question so I will give you the answer that question deserves.

"Why do normal people get gailed, while those with hangups or disorders get off?"

Because "normal" people bash rape and murder people who are different. Because "normal" people let murderers of Transgender people get off on lesser charges almost every time (the Angie Zapata case in the USA was the first murder 1 conviction there in 30 years despite the leading cause of death for african american transgender women being murder!). Because "normal" people ruin the lives of those who are different for no reason.
Because "normal" people do more harm to the world than the people they victimise for being different.

rechtub you have failed to address the simple stats i gave, of 38% of transgender queenslanders having been assaulted with a weapon! 46% having been bashed. Transgender people are less often criminals than "normal" people. "normal" people are less often victims of crime than Transgender people.

"normal" people contribute directly to the deaths of transgender people by the thousands with their bigotry and negligence. "normal" people drove transgender people from an accepted and often honored place in the world by convincing other "normal" people to reject and oppress and assault them. Just 40-odd years ago here in Australia police still arrested and harassed Transgender people for existing. Electro-shock torture, chemical torture and even lobotomy were used to try and destroy their Transgender nature.

"Normal" people owe Transgender people for the damage done, for the erasure of them from history and popular culture, for the vilification and the bashings and the murders. All these cause young people to kill themselves every year. "normal" people let this happen. "normal" people refused to do anything about stopping this even when informed with quality studies stats and facts.

"normal" people are too often dangerous towards and cannot be trusted around Transgender people.

Of course not all cisgender people do i count as "normal"

But unless and until people like you rechtub do something about the bashings and the suicide rate and the mockery and the hate that kills kids every year and the broken prison system that killed Veronica Baxter who wasn't even yet convicted of anything http://www.thescavenger.net/glbsgdq/another-black-trans-death-in-custody-36578.html and the refusal to do the same investigation they would for any other aboriginal death in custody then the judge made the right decision.

What are you doing about these deaths rechtub? You know about them now. Now you know what happened to Veronica Baxter what are you going to do about that? You can whine and complain that someone with a 38% chance of being attacked with a weapon and a 46% chance of being bashed OUTSIDE prison can't be sent to jail cause the odds would be 100% well what about a woman not even sentenced in court who may not have even been guilty who is now Dead? No-one is going to jail for the death of Veronica either rechtub.. why are the ones who put her in that prison causing her death getting a get out of jail free card?

rechtub if you care about justice then you should speak out against the murders and the bashings and the bullying-into-suicide of Transgender people, the inaction of authorities and the silence of the media and the failure of the schools.

Why wasn't the crossdresser sent to prison? Because just being sentenced to a world of murderous and violent "normal" people and murder-by-negligence-and-silence Authorities in the OUTSIDE is a greater punishment than a cisgender person gets in prison!

So rechtub what are you going to do about the death of Veronica Baxter and the attempted suicide rate of 40% of Transgender youth, the 46% bashing rate and the 38% attacked with a weapon rate?

You want justice? Fine. Where is the justice for Transgender people you seem to think so advantaged? Where is the advantage for people where nearly half are bashed more than a third are stabbed with a knife, smashed with a glass bottle or stone and nearly half try and commit suicide because of the prejudice they face? Where a woman is put in a mens high-security prison for a drugs charge who hasn't even been tried yet and may have been totally innocent and dies after 6 days and it isn't properly investigated?

Bayne MacGregor, nice rant!

And TG people are what percentage of the population?

rechtub percentage of the population has no actual bearing, an injustice done to a minority of one single person is still an injustice. The Government, the legal system, the health system, these things exist to serve all Australians not just the most common ones. And wheelchair access and other changes of systems to acomodate the needs of people show that systems must deal with minorities large and small.

That said this is no tiny insignificant number of people. Even though most people keep being transgender a secret which prevents us from getting the real total we can know some minimums. Note: in this i'm including Intersex as part of Transgender, something some Intersex people support and others do not. Many prefer to use the term Intersex Sex and Gender Diverse or ISGD but it will make this easier for you rechtub to get a neat minimum figure this way.

About 1 in 60 people are Intersex. about 1.6% of Australians
About 1 in 500 people are Transsexual. about 0.2% of Australians
USA APA figures found the number of males who are crossdressers at 3%+ a UK study found 6%+ (a more reliable minimumj as lesser prejudice than the USA results in more people being willing to admit it to researchers) many expect and anecdotal reports support that the actual numbers are around 10%. Female crossdressers do exist but have yet to be studied to my knowledge but figures are likely similar. Genderqueer i have not yet heard of any studies on. Neurologically bi-gendered brains though have some preliminary figures of about 1 in 3 people, but that is still very early data.

Compared to Gay and Lesbian Australian figures of between 2% and 3% (but 20% have some attraction to the same sex) and Indiginous population of about 2.7%.

So if we take the minimum USA figure of more than 3% of males we can see that the Crossdresser male population is larger than the Gay male population and larger than the Aboriginal male population. If we consider the UK figure then it's more than twice as large as either of those demographics.

Of course those who are visible in present society suffer more of the prejudice than those keeping it hidden. But keeping it hidden is also known to do psychological harm increasing risks of depression etc.

So we know that there are several Intersex kids in every school, most schools will have at least one transsexual and there's likely a crossdresser in every classroom.

So in short a minimum of 3.3% (and that's without crossdressing women or Genderqueers counted, USA figure base) and much more likely minimum of 4.8% (still no CD women included, UK base figure used) and quite plausibly 7.8% - 11.8% of Australians are Transgender.

The squeeky wheel gets the most oil.

This is a famous saying and it is also the reason why so few attract so much attention.

The reality is, the majority of people simply don't care if someone is gay, a cross dresser, a transexual etc, etc.

It's just that these minority groups make so much noise that they are eventually heard.

I still don't think it is an excuse for doing wrong, or being treated favourably.

Now on the other hand, if you are gay, a cross dresser or a transexual, by all means knock yourself out, at your place, not ours.

Keep it in the closet and all will be fine.

It is when they try to mix it with main stream that they get picked on.

After all, it is not the 'norm' and that's simply a fact.

"The squeeky wheel gets the most oil."

The media has under-reported it. Press releases and studies get less airplay if they are about Transgender issues unless they can be reported in a negative light.

"The reality is, the majority of people simply don't care if someone is gay, a cross dresser, a transexual etc, etc."

Rather true. Galaxy polls of recent years prove this. But while Gay and Transgender rights issues range from 60% support (marriage equality) to 85% support (antidiscrimination protection) and with of that latter poll only 4% strongly against Vs 40% strongly for the politicians have been listening to the 4% not the 40%. If anything most people care in favour of GLBTI however the laws and policies go against the will of the people!

"It's just that these minority groups make so much noise that they are eventually heard"

At key points in the past having to resort to violence to do so despite being less violent than "normal" people see Compton Riot, Stonewall Riot, 1st Mardi Gras and subsequent court scandal, White Night Riot. Most of which were fighting against police bashing raping and in the case of Mardi Gras suspected of murdering Transgender and Gay people.

"I still don't think it is an excuse for doing wrong, or being treated favourably."

It's not. Sending a Transgender person to a current prison would be to give them EXTRA punishmment that Cisgender people do not get. Why don't you acknowledge this rechtub? That prison being WORSE currently for Transgender people means they cannot receive the same sentences. Only when they get the same treatment in prison will it be fine and I already said we need a Transgender prison to do that. Don't you agree or do you think that the death after 6 days in prison without even a trial or a standard investigation was an acceptable situation?

"Now on the other hand, if you are gay, a cross dresser or a transexual, by all means knock yourself out, at your place, not ours."

What i am is immaterial to the argument.
This country is the place of Transgender people. Transgender people were here amongst and treated respectfully by Aboriginal Australia for tens of thousands of years. Same for all our neighbouring Polynesian countries too. There were Transgender people amongst every ship of imigrants. Transgender peoples place is "our" place, everyone's place. Every public place is a Transgender persons place every bit as much as any cisgender persons place. Every park every street every council every parliament every shopping centre every pub is a Transgender place.

"Keep it in the closet and all will be fine."

Why the heck should they? That causes psychological ahrm, depression, suicide. They are only in the closet because they were forced there under threat of unjust brutal laws of the past. These people belong in public visibility just as much as you do. Why not put heterosexuality and Cisgender in the closet? Transgender images are found in cave paintings dating from before humans invented writing, including in NSW. A Crossdresser or Fakaleiti was respected by the royal family of our neighbour Tonga to arrange the wedding of the Kings Daughter! The Tiwi Islands, part of Australia, have 4% of the population and growing Transgender as they take their native traditions back from the brink of destruction.

The closet is new. Only a couple hundred years in this part of the world and even in parts of Europe thats true!

"It is when they try to mix it with main stream that they get picked on."

By a pathetic 4% who, if the same is true for Transgender as it is known to be for gays, 84% of that 4% are themselves self-hating transgender people in denial (based on scientific studies that found most homophobes got sexually aroused when shown gay erotica)

That being picked on is new. It's learned behaviour that came from concerted attempts to destroy Transgender traditions and stamp out this Genetic human trait. (oh and Australian Scientists discovered one of those Transgender genes!)

"After all, it is not the 'norm' and that's simply a fact."

Rubbish. It's not average but then neither are many things that are normal. It's found in every society on earth. It's genetic. It was recently respected in much of the world including Australia. It will never go away and we know society has accepted it before and so can do again. People tried to demonise it and stamp it out with lies so it went into hiding so it seems not-normal but that will only last so long as it's kept in the closet just like women with opinions etc.

The closet causes psychological harm and kills. You just advocated for death of some Transgender people so that some bigots don't have to get over a temporary discomfort of getting used to the proven scientific and historical fact that Transgender people are part of Australia. You just gave in to terrorism, i'm sure Al Qaeda would leave us alone if we all converted to Wahabist Islam and keep any other view in the closet.

If you disagree with converting to Wahabism then why should Transgender people submit to a small group of terrorists who use violence to try and keep them in the closet? Why shouldn't the Police and Schools and Politicians do their job to protect Transgender people the way they do other minorities?

Heck with a 3%-10% chance you have crossdresser family and/or friends! Suffering because a couple hundred years ago bigots in power tried to exterminate Transgender and even 40 years ago people were electrocuting them and labotomising them here in Australia in failed attempts to 'cure' them, after a good police bashing first of course.

C'mon rechtub. Thats irrational and unjust. I already described the simple answer to this particular case, a transgender prison. Just reorganise one existing prison. Easy and cheap. And we clearly need an anti-violence campain for those few bigots who can't keep their fists to themselves. We already do those, just not for the people who need it the most. We investigate deaths in custody too, just not for transgender women put into maximum security mens prisons, it's easy to fix that too.

rechtub get used to Transgender people. There's what? 2 million of them in this country? And more of them are demanding to be treated as Equal Australians. What the heck can be wrong with that?

Stop being gutless and making excuses for the current injustice. Reform is needed, it is right, it is simple, it is possible. So stop supporting the current injustice and instead support fair just reform.

Nothing to say rechtub? You surprise me. Don't you care about justice?

Here's some recent USA examples of the unequal treatment in prisons and by police Transgender people suffer. http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2010/09/see-pattern-here.html

C'mon rechtub. All I'm suggesting is actual equal fair treatment. Which would mean equal jail time for equal crime. And crime-prevention. Why can't you support that? Was all this really just an excuse to try and talk bad about Crossdressers and imply Transgender people got a better go than others when instead they get false arrests, misstreatment and uninvestigated deaths in custody? If you really wanted real justice wouldn't you agree to having a seperate Transgender prison? Yet you aren't saying that. And you have avoided responding to every injustice against Transgender people i have pointed out. Why is that rechtub?

BM, sorry I have been away for a few days, however, I see you have managed to keep yourself ammussed.

Boy I have really hit a nerve, hey!

I say again, WHO CARES!

Clearly you do care. You start a conversation railling against a perceived injustice, but to an actual solution you say "who cares?" and when shown that there are injustices that make the one you complained about pale into insignificace you reply "who cares?". Obviously you care, enough about justice to say you want justice and you care enough about the existance of Transgender people to then look as if you only want justice for Cisgender people and want injustice for Transgender people. And if not then you have missrepresented yourself. Gloating about "hitting a nerve" when I'm talking about peoples deaths? Is that really the way you want to look?

What is it preventing you rechtub from engaging with the injustices and the deaths and the assaults i reported to you in the same way that you were able to engage with the perceived injustice that started the conversation off?

Don't sully yourself with attempts to shirk looking square at this issue by trying to dissmiss me or the lives of those killed, driven to suicide or bashed and stabbed. It will only make you publicly look a hypocrite if you start a conversation on injustice and then try and wash your hands of it and laugh it off. I know it can be difficult when faced with a reality you didn't realise existed or which you had false preconceptions about and the reflex can be to stick your head in the sand or to try and find ways to dissmiss having to face the subject. But that would do you no credit as a human being rechtub.

If you care about justice and think Transgender should not be an issue interfering in justice, and yet it is so as my examples prove, then logic demands you should care about stopping it being an issue, by ending the injustices done to Transgender people. If you don't care about justice then you would not have started this discussion. So why exactly are you shrinking from the only logical conclusion? Transgender people's lives should matter to you as much as anyone elses.

Transgender people's lives should matter to you as much as anyone elses.

Well, sorry, but they don't.

Now, as for you trying to turn this whole on to me, well, let me remind you that I have made several points very clear.

Point 1. I don't see why anyone should be treated any differntly by the courts.

Point 2. I don't think that death by accident warrents jail. Remember, I was only reacting to a news story.

Point 3. Not yet made, but, if you think joe average cares so much about so few, then why not suggest a referendem on the subject. However, I don't like your chances.

Finally, you made mention of TS people dating back to before Australian white settlement.

Now I have no reason to doubt this, however, it is only in the last few decades that these types have openly come out of the closet.

Now, for some reason they want all others to accept them for what they are, well, that's simply not going to happen, at least not in my life time and you had best get used to it.

Now, if you wish to debate issues that effect our future, as a whole, then bring it on.

"Transgender people's lives should matter to you as much as anyone elses."

"Well, sorry, but they don't."

Thankyou for having the honesty to own up to being a bigot. But please explain to me how you can justify it?

"Point 1. I don't see why anyone should be treated any differntly by the courts."

They shouldn't. Courts should ensure everyone's safety and rehabilitation in incarceration. We have women's prisons seperate from mens for a reason, safety of the prisoners. The same reason requires us to have a Transgender one because the safety IS an issue. Not doing so IS to treat them differently!

"Point 2. I don't think that death by accident warrents jail. Remember, I was only reacting to a news story."

Immaterial. 38% of transgender people assaulted with a weapon, 46% assaulted, 40% attempted suicide rate and the death of Veronica Baxter all show there is a bigger problem connected to this case that caused the judges decision so that problem must be addressed as part of this case!

"Point 3. Not yet made, but, if you think joe average cares so much about so few, then why not suggest a referendem on the subject. However, I don't like your chances."

Galaxy polls already found 85% of Australians support antidiscrimination protection for Gender Identity, including majority support in rural areas and coalition voters! But why not suggest a referendum? Because it shouldn't have to come to that. Australias government is already suppossed to deal with the Equal Human Rights of all Australians. And constitutional reform is not required legally to fix the broken laws.

"Finally, you made mention of TS people dating back to before Australian white settlement."

Yes.

"Now I have no reason to doubt this, however, it is only in the last few decades that these types have openly come out of the closet."

Not so. It's been increasingly visible since it was decriminalised and people were less often raped and bashed by police and lobotomised and electrocuted by doctors (which still happened in the 60's!). Look up the Yimpininni or Sistagirls of the Tiwi Islands of Australia as just one example of Indiginous Transgender traditions. Existing traditions can be found throughout our region.

"Now, for some reason they want all others to accept them for what they are, well, that's simply not going to happen, at least not in my life time and you had best get used to it."

The reason is because it is right. Science says so, history says so, reason says so, logic says so, culture says so. And just like Women in Universities and the workplace and Aboriginals using the same swimming pools as white people it can indeed change in one lifetime and it is already changing. So you are the one who has to get used to it.

"Now, if you wish to debate issues that effect our future, as a whole, then bring it on."

You brought up this subject so don't be a coward. This is about the future of 10% of the country. It's about a significant part of the annual suicide rate which kills more than car accidents do! The bashings and deaths preventing many people from being fully productive happy members of society has an economic effect on the country. It's about reforming the justice system which benefits us all. So sorry no excuse for you there. This is something that effects everyone. Those kids who kill themselves, those people bashed and stabbed all have mothers, fathers brothers sisters and friends too.

BM>>They shouldn't. Courts should ensure everyone's safety and rehabilitation in incarceration

Wrong! As I say, jail should be for serious offenders only and should be a hole in the ground. Now, if one does not like that, then don't commit the crime.

Point 2. I understand your frustration, but I simply don't care.

>>The reason is because it is right. Science says so, history says so, reason says so, logic says so, culture says so.

Sonds like evryone says so, except me. I don't care. Get it!

>>You brought up this subject so don't be a coward.

No, I didn't bring up this subject. You are the one defending the rights of these people.

All I want to know is why the have a right to be freed, when normal people don't. As for the rest of it, once again, I DON'T CARE!

Enjoy your day.

"BM>>They shouldn't. Courts should ensure everyone's safety and rehabilitation in incarceration

Wrong! As I say, jail should be for serious offenders only and should be a hole in the ground."

Why? What should with the other criminals?

"Now, if one does not like that, then don't commit the crime."

Thats nonsensical as i have already informed you the majority of criminals have brain damage that interferes with their judgement destroying their capacity for responsibility unless given rehabilitation which our health services don't give. Giving them that would stop the crime before it happens, so you are saying you WANT more rape and murder by not supporting this crime prevention?

"Point 2. I understand your frustration, but I simply don't care.

>>The reason is because it is right. Science says so, history says so, reason says so, logic says so, culture says so.

Sonds like evryone says so, except me. I don't care. Get it!"

LOL of course you care! If you were apathetic you wouldn't mind Transgender people being treated like humans and would have a live-and-let-live view. But you are not apathetic meaning you do actually care! You want Transgender people to NOT be equal, you consider their lives less valuable than cisgenders. Thats caring about the subject very strongly!

">>You brought up this subject so don't be a coward.

No, I didn't bring up this subject. You are the one defending the rights of these people."

I defend the rights of all humans whether i belong to their group or not, and i've not said whether i am or am not Transgender and/or Intersex. Defending the rights of others is the default position of Ethics and Reason and Fairness. But you are OBJECTING to their equal rights. showing you care enough about Transgender to need them to be UNequal!

"All I want to know is why the have a right to be freed, when normal people don't. As for the rest of it, once again, I DON'T CARE!"

You had it explained to you. Your deliberately ignoring that.

So in summary rechtub you have admited or argued:

* Transgender peoples lives don't matter but cisgender peoples do
* It's ok for Transgender people to be assaulted raped and murdered but not cisgender people
* giving transgender people the same protections that exist for cisgender peoples by giving them a seperate prison is not ok even if it solves the thing your objecting to
* It's better to have the current rates of rapes and murders than to do what would prevent them
* despite saying you don't care you really must to consider some lives less than others and some murders bashings and rapes unimportant while others important. A mark of EXTREME concern with the subject!

"Enjoy your day."

I will.

Actually rechtub, i have a short answer for your burning question "All I want to know is why the have a right to be freed, when normal people don't."

Because people like you who care so much as to consider Transgender lives less than Cisgender lives and who oppose letting them being equal and being treated as equal make it the right thing to do!

Or the even shorter version: It's your fault and the fault of people like you rechtub.

Don't like it? I gave you the ways to fix it but you ignore it so what's REALLY your problem? Why do you care So Much to value some lives more than others?

[Deleted for abuse.]

[Deleted, responds to previous comment. Mildly abusive.]

Ok BM, I appologize for my comments.

Now, it is my understanding that you want our current prison system, that is already stressed, to establish a whole new wing so that people with hang-ups can be fairly treated in their own little prison world.

Is that right?

rechtub our current prison system would not be already stressed if we dealt with brain injuries properly. With 70% of prisoners brain-injured we could prevent many of the crimes in the first place.

And the people with hang-ups are not the knowingly Transgender prisoners. Transgender is and always has been a part of humanity, is natural,is genetic and had a place in much of the worlds cultures including Australias until recently excised. Therefore Transgender is not a 'hang-up' but Transphobia is, just like being Aboriginal or Female is not a 'hang-up' but Racism and Sexism is. The ones with the hang-ups are the ones that bash and rape Transgender people because they can't handle finding Transgender people naturally attractive or because they are in denial about their own Gay or Transgender tendencies (based on findings that 83% of homophobes get measurably sexually aroused at seeing same-sex erotic images).

Rearranging one part of one prison or one prison in total in order to properly house Transgender prisoners safely is better than the other currently suggested alternatives: letting all Transgender prisoners, even the rare serious criminals who are Transgender, go free because a few Cisgender prisoners would rape and/or execute them or allowing the current situation to continue that lead to the death of one Transgender woman within 6 days who hadn't even got to court yet and may have been completely innocent!

We already seperate cisgender men from cisgender women after all, even though cisgender women are less often raped or bashed in the non-prison world than Transgender people are! Surely we should protect more at-risk people if we protect the lessly-so but still at-risk ones? Italy has already set up a Transgender prison. Surely Australia can protect it's citizens better than Italy?

What are your better suggestions?