The Mark Latham factor could have been a positive for the Coalition.In some Labor electorates the informal vote was 17%.While Graham Young argues that the protest vote was a minor factor,I don't agree.There is a lot of dissatisfaction with both the major parties.

Tony Abbott is my local member for Warringah.For the last two elections I've voted Liberal but on this occasion with two useless independants and a totally dysfunctional Labor Party, I lodged a protest non vote.Had this seat been marginal,Abbott would have got my vote.

So using this logic,in many Labor electorates the Latham factor, plus gross ignorance may have worked to the Coalition's advantage.Many would have voted informal not knowing how marginal their seat was.A new election may well see a return of old tribal allegiances and the return of Labor

So your foolish logic is a disaster for the coalition. God help us what will they think of next.

Arjay>> I lodged a protest non vote.

By your own admisions, you have no right what so ever to enter in to this debate as you have foregone your right to choose who runs this country.

A delibarate informal vote, altough within your rights, is a 'useless vote' and you should withdraw from any further discussions on who should run this country.

On the other hand, should we go back to the polls, and I think we should, you then have the right to again cast your vote.

Everyone should remember, labor lost this election, just not badly enough and, if not for the fools who voted for the greens (not all green voters)just those who did not realise they were actually voting for labor, we would have a majority coalition government and the stabillity we simply don't have right now.

More wasted monies, more debt for future generations.

rehctub:"By your own admisions, you have no right what so ever to enter in to this debate as you have foregone your right to choose who runs this country."

Not at all. By making a deliberate decision to abstain from supporting either major party, one is making a pointed observation about their eligibility to govern.

I conscientiously objected to this election because it was not required, there was no legitimate PM candidate being offered by LAbor and there was no genuine credibility from either of the majors or the Greens on any of the significant issues confronting the nation.

I did not "forego my right to choose", I chose "none of the above".

rehctub'
Amazes me how you conservatives always see the green voters as voting for labour. The Green vote was high because people wanted a clear balance of power in the Senate and despite all the watermelon talk and threats of communist economic disaster from paranoid conservatives the general population have decided to allow them the opportunity to show what they can do. Maybe it is this opportunity that the lib's and lab's have squandered so many times that they do not want any other to have.
And yes labor did not win the election but you may have noticed nor did the liberals and nationals combined. In fact they will have one more seat by a few hundred votes, that is no endorsement of the lib's nor any mandate to rule over anyone else. As for the Nationals they need to get some spine and brake away from the coalition in opposition and start standing up for the rural sector or they may find more and more of their seats turning to independents. The WA nationals are a good example. This would give australian politics some real policy variation and true representation.

Perhaps they should have on all ballot papers ie "none of the above" since this will send a clear message that you don't like any of them rather than your vote being listed as a mistake.

By choosing one party or another we are continually re-inforcing their bad behaviour.If they see a definite 20% who don't like any of them,then pehaps they will look at their policies.

For all our economic rationalism over the last 30 yrs we are worse off with more technology,than the 60's or 70's.Medical was better houses were cheapser and we worked less hours. Quality of life was better.The main reason is that the new money to equal GDP and inflation is created by the banks as debt when it should be created as a tax credit.

Both the major parties are controlled by large corporate interests.They are not addressing infrastructure or support Aust business.Why would you sell off state owned income earning assests like power,water,State lotteries etc.Water for example should not be sold off to the highest foreign bidder.China should not be allowed to buy up our rural land so readily.The way we are going we will not be able to feed ourselves soon.

Over the last 40 yrs we have sold up the farm and now are in serious debt.Our personal debt has increased by 71% in 5 yrs.Personal debt is now greater than our GDP of $1.2 trillion.We have the most over priced real estate on the planet.Our real estate melt down will begin in earnest next year.

I don't think that Labor can be reformed.They are too dysfunctional and corrupt.Hopefully they will self destruct and we can being afresh with a new party that does not take corporate donations.

Nairbe, just to help with your amazement a little, I don't see a vote for the greens as just a vote for Labor, which it does become, in the long run, I see it as a vote for Labor, with a large percentage of crazies added.

While they want to open the boarder to anyone who wants to bludge on us, they will remain a bunch of crazies, & far too dangerous to have in any sort of power.

Rehctub wrote:

<< By your own admisions, you have no right what so ever to enter in to this debate as you have foregone your right to choose who runs this country. >>

Antiseptic replied:

<< Not at all. By making a deliberate decision to abstain from supporting either major party, one is making a pointed observation about their eligibility to govern. >>

Absolutely right Antiseptic. If a null vote is well-considered, as opposed to being an apathetic vote, it is just as valid as any other vote. In fact, if a vote for any candidate is not well-considered but is an arbitrary or very poorly based vote, as no doubt a large portion of votes were in this election, then it is a pity that they count just as much as well-considered votes.

<< I did not "forego my right to choose", I chose "none of the above". >>

Me too. And I’ll maintain that this was definitely the right decision in the circumstances.

New election - a disaster for the Coalition?

I’m not sure about that, but it would certainly be a disaster for the Greens and for progressive politics in this country.

Another election would be much more polarised than the one just past. People would be much more inclined to vote for either Lib or Lab.

The old dinosaur pro-growth antisustainability paradigm would be upheld and any hope of the new critically important slower-growth-with-limits-in-sight sustainable-society paradigm, which will ….hopefully….. be developed by the Greens with the backing of the some of the independents, would be trashed, for at least another three years.

If only some body with intelligence, integrity, allegiance to Australia and the Australian working people as opposed to the anti-worker, anti-small business, pro multi-millionaires complex, we could well get back into a good economy, if we could get enough non-fanatics to help Australia up from the efforts of our previous idiot and corrupt parties parliament. Unfortunately, even the "News Corp" newspapers are unable or unwilling to always tell the truth, Rupert Murdoch about 30 years ago, told the liberal party that the news papers would be pro liberal and anti labor because they permitted News Corp to have a share in the TV station news, whereas Labor had previously refused. So don't always believe the political advice in the papers. I think that all newspapers are owned by News Corp.

Ludwig,Sir Mate, please never ever say progressive politics and the Greens in the same sentence.
IF Labor is able to govern in harness with the greens it will take 20 years to wash the damage away, damage to labor.
For Australia's sake,after the statement made today by the foolish family first senator we MUST see both major party's combine to go back into the house craft a DD election and stop [I am not referring to the 3 ex Nats]fools having power the electorate never wanted them to have.
No vote? no brains.

Belly,
Yes Fielding is a fool, from the minute he gained balance of power 3 years ago he has continually carried on like a two bob watch. I get your concern over the greens but having real responsibility can also do the opposite that which it did to Fielding, it can be the wake up call that is needed for them to realise the need for more realistic policy. Not that i want the Greens to become the latest sell out but just moderate some of their more idealistic views.

Belly "No vote no brains" Take it easy Belly ,I might represent that!
Belly, when a non vote is a considered option,it is not a no brainer.

If both of your parents are abusing you,would you love them both equally,or look for a better philosphy that will give you happiness and fulfillment?

<< …please never ever say progressive politics and the Greens in the same sentence >>

Hahaha. Belly, surely you’re not suggesting that Labor is or could ever be progressive ? ! ? ! ( :>O

Its a hard one for the poor independents.
If they do the right thing, as they see it, for Australia(and their electorates even if they dont like it)and go with Labor they will lose their seats at the next election which Julia has already agreed would be in three years.

If they go with the Libs they will be reducing their power(Tony wont let them tell him what to do)but they will get to keep their seats at the next election which would be sooner rather than later(and a double dissolution)as soon as the greens oblige and reject a bill twice.

A new election now, according to Antony Green, could only be called if the independents refused to support anyone and Labor formed a government only to get numerous bills voted down and lose a no confidence vote then the GG would ask Abbott to have a go and if the same thing happened and all his bills got voted down as well then the GG would call a new election. Could be months. And I doubt anyone would get voted back in after they did all of that.

I predict.
Labor will get in with the independents help and at the cost of a lot of reform to parliament, new pokie laws, a bucketload of pork for the bush and probably most of Labors election promises. Tony Abbott and the rest of the Lib dinosaurs will continue to disgrace themselves with their behavior and rhetoric and soon become irrelevant again. But they wont block supply or deal with that idiot fielding to their credit. The next election in three years will be an easy win for Labor. The Libs wont rise again until they get new blood over the next decade. The faceless men of Labor will be terminated. Most likely with cushy appointments overseas or to the judiciary if any of them are lawyers

I condemn the posts about Labors faceless men as rubbish.
The fact is many here constantly use the battle cry , many of them,of the 1950s, to 1980s.
Those who contributed to Rudd's downfall, other than himself and his gutless followers who did not remind him he was not a God.
Are not faceless, in fact starting with Whitlams reforms before he won his first term no faceless men exists lets not lie, Labor has done much wrong but this?
I could find much mud to throw at my party, why lie,why make it up.
Shorten is a man of power he is the type we need, would you have him not act in the name of his party?
Howe's is no faceless man, from the same stable as Shorten he too is an honest man a man of the future and bound to act in the interests of Labor.
Now the mud, my party after the storm has passed must tell me the full Rudd story.
Why the gutless back down on ETS.
Why we leave conservation to the greens, let them win votes by not passing an ETS.
What are our policy's on boat people, who's ego would not let us say if east timor is out we will look at Noumea, who would not let us see the decaying buildings and show how much it would cost to rebuild in Noumea.
Labor won 2 party preferred, yet some conservatives think they had a clear win, I want my party to act in the interests of the majority and its members with pride and dignity not sleeping with the enemy.

In most situations, if a winner can not be determined then the one in front gets awarded the win.

Libs 73, lab 72, game over. Labor should admit defeat, esspecially considering the huge majority they held prior to the election.

As for giving power to the greens, well, you could kiss goodby to many pleasures of life, like fishing, camping, even boiling the billy.

What's next, gay marriage!

rehctub,
Despite the ramblings of the papers and the like it is 72 seats all. The WA nationals would burn you at the stake for suggesting they are part of the coalition. Beside this what has now happened to the ever complained about green alliance. would that not make labor 73 seats. Then what of Wilkie? 74 seats, Both NSW independents are very favourable to important projects such as the NBN, 76 Seats.
The numbers are leaning labor but that is no sure thing, as for the vote labor won the two party vote and the lib's only have the seat by a handfull of votes. This is no majority nor is it a right to rule. be realistic.

Who ever wins power I think there will be another election very soon since the independants have them over a barrel.Both parties have to have margin of 2 seats since one has to be a neutral speaker.

Economically next yr things do not look good,so if Labor win,their position will be still very tenuous.Perhaps the Libs should let them win so Labor gets on the nose even more.Then come an election in 12 mnths there will be a much bigger swing away from Labor.

If the Coalition take a win now,and the economy goes for a big slide,they could be out in 12mnths.

In all reality these are unusual times and even the political pundits can't pick how the electorate vote.

nairbe, how's this for 'realistic'.

Labor defeated the libs in 07 and held 85 or 86 seats, in any case, a large majority.

Within less than three years they have managed to waste 'billions', cost lives, send many businesses to the wall and sack an elected 'popular' prime minister.

So, after the election just held, they LOST some 13 seats and, without the aid of the green preferences, would have lost more seats.

Now you are trying to convince yourself, 'and others' that after the carniage they created and the thrashing they received in the polls, that they should hold the right to govern. What! so they continue wasting billions we don't have.

Yer right! Pull the other one!

You labor puppets are all the same, with the exception of belly I might add, at least he has recognised what has happened.

rechtub! stop it, it can not be good for your health crunching around the bottom of the rubbish bin for comments such as Labor puppets.
Clearly you have problems understanding, one of your 73 is a WA Nat, only in that state are the Nationals not dead.
He wants to be counted as a independent.
TWO PARTY preferred more voted Labor,and you do not have more seats.
Read a bit more.
Start with this mornings press proof the Nats are dead Alby Schultz rang around mid negotiation, to abuse those you need to form a government.
rechtub Labor puppets is as childish a remark as any you ever made here.
No easy task, in one line YOU insult over half the electorate, for? being different than you.

belly:"TWO PARTY preferred more voted Labor"

Not actually. The count is very close, but with postal votes favouring the coalition it is a strong probability that they will gain the majority of 2-party preferred votes.

As for Howes, he'sa very young man with a great deal more power than he has the experience to manage. Shorten is no more than a self-serving media tart. As for the rest of the cabal of "faceless men", let's face it, you wouldn't buy a used car from any of them.

Wake up to yourself, Belly. Whatever our differences, I reckon you're an honourable bloke. You shouldn't be tainting yourself by supporting these unelected grubs.

Belly, allow me to clarify myself. I don't claim all labor voters to be 'puppets', simply those few who insist on supporting thier party and see only the 'good' parts, not the 'wrong doings' they have done.

It's all well and good for those to support who they feel is best, but at least they should acknowledge the carniage their party have caused this great nation in less than three years.

If it were an election to determine who was the looser, labor are a 'stand out' and it is for this reason that I say they should admit they have failed and step aside. Esspecially considering the great posotion they inherited back in 07.

The GFC did not cause the lack of management in areas such as, insulation, solar, fuel watch, grocery watch and copenhagen. Nor did it play a role in the mining tax debarcle.

What turned the public against labor was their own incompitence and their NSW and QLD collegues.

I think neither party holds the right to govern, not in "their own right" that is. The Coalition increased their vote from the last defeat by a mere 1% or so ...... that's "NOT" an endorsement from the Aussie public. The Labor party had their vote decreased markedly, "BUT" it didn't go to the Coalition, it went to the Greens and "informal". So neither party are "clear" victors, seeing neither holds a majority of seats in their own right.

Therefore, there's only 2 outcomes ...... a minority government with Green and/or Independent support or another election. At another election I'm pretty sure the informal voters and Green voters would rush back to Labor and they'd be able to form a majority government quite easily.

benq Wrote:
"""
At another election I'm pretty sure the informal voters and Green voters would rush back to Labor and they'd be able to form a majority government quite easily.
"""

What makes you think that? I could see more people going independent. At least the people I associate with were surprised so many got the vote. Now they see it as a way to get back some from the fools that have destroyed their lives over the past 30 years! Jeez some are even contemplating running themselves, something they would never have dreamed of until now.

I voted independent and so did all of my friends, next time we'll do it again! I could see all of them hung over and over again :) What a wonderful thing that would be!

The reason I think that, is because most of those new Green voters would be traditional Labor voters. The percentage of folks who change their vote at any election is usually quite tiny, and I think these disgruntled Labor voters see the Greens as a sort of lefty Labor party, and would rather their "disgruntled" votes go to the Greens (or informal) than the coalition.

What many of them wouldn't have known at the time of voting is that their non-Labor vote "almost" cost Labor the election. So in order to provide stable, majority government I think they would at least "temporarily" return to the Labor fold and vote in a majority Labor government.

Don't forget that the coalition barely had an increase in their overall vote compared to their last election defeat. The population clearly doesn't want them to govern.

Across regional Australia, a brace of electorates profoundly rejected Labor and the Greens at this election. When you add the combined votes of the ALP and the Greens, the four seats where these parties polled the lowest combined totals were: New England (11.4 per cent), Lyne (17.2 per cent), Kennedy (24.7 per cent) and O'Connor (25.7 per cent).

And who are the four MPS who hold these seats? None other than Tony Windsor (New England), Bob Oakeshott (Lyne), Bob Katter (Kennedy) and Tony Crook (O'Connor)

The question is whether these independents intend to represent their electorates or their own self interest. Because of their power today, their next elections will almost certainly be decided on their decision today.

A donkey vote instead of a vote for the lunatic fringe is a more considered non vote for the 2 main parties.

I have more regard for a considered informal vote than for an uninformed vote based on a catchy sound bite and a how to vote form.

An interesting and correct point you make Benq about Coalition support.
And the Green vote is clearly drift from Labor.

I'm somewhat reassured when you say "the population doesn't want their Govt".
I agree, the spectre of an Abbott Gov't is now a real possibility.

I think Arjay's right. The last thing the Coalition would want is another election.

And as for Latham advocating donkey voting.

On another post, I also advocated a "none of the above vote. But I also said,
that the only way such a vote could possibly be an expression of democracy
would be if more than 50% did it !. It should be an option the ballot paper !.

I voted Labor ticket on election day out of fear of an Abbot led Gov't.
I see this now as sensible, even though the Greens were attractive to my thinking.

Some of the bitterness here is pure hate and blindness.
Come of the grass fellas, Labor was flogged by its own actions, the actions of some one close to Rudd.
Mostly by Rudd himself.
THIS was an election Abbott should have walked in, yes his policy's leave much to be desired but lets face it, his fear thing worked.
Now antiseptic.
YOU HAVE NO IDEA, Bill Shorten, Paul Howe's, are men you can trust, believe it.
I am twice the age of one and nearly two and a half the age of the other.
The come from the same stable.
BOTH have already proved them selves, both contributed to the very survival of our best union, my lifetime one.
Read the speeches of both, understand they are what we thought Rudd was.
IT HURTS, it truly does,to know Rudd did a Latham, he thought he owned my party.
Gutless back down on DD election ETS I think the press gave him no option about boat people but his biggest crime?
After a lifetime of climbing the ALP ladder over the body of foot soldiers like me, he put himself before party.
IF we have to bend our knee to silly wish lists lets go back to the polls now.
Greens except in NSW bring that on now please, have reached high water mark if they can deliver some of their policy's we may see Australian boat people looking for homes in Indonesia.

Thinker2 ,If we did have "none of the above" as an option on a ballot paper,there would be an enormous response.Perhaps we should register a new political party called "None of the above" and it be allowed to represent us in Parliament.

In other words we have a default party that represents the disaffected.So if any one election "none of the above" get enough numbers,they get to elect a candidate in their seat whom they trust.

I think we may be onto a new dimension in democracy.

Belly, I have a great deal of respect for Paul Howes, but I believe he is way too young to be in his position. In a few years, if he can manage to maintain his integrity in the face of the relentless Labor factional politics, he may become a man to reckon with. At the moment he can be nothing more than someone else's man. That man is Shorten and while I respect Shorten's intellect, I don't respect his ethics.

Me, on Sunday:"The count is very close, but with postal votes favouring the coalition it is a strong probability that they will gain the majority of 2-party preferred votes."

From this morning's papers http://www.news.com.au/features/federal-election/pm-julia-gillards-mandate-slips-as-tony-abbott-offers-the-bush-a-deal/story-fn5tas5k-1225912128084

I quote:"JULIA Gillard's claim to government on the basis of winning the two-party-preferred vote in the election has collapsed, with the Coalition overtaking Labor last night by almost 2000 votes."