The 'boat people' thing has been perplexing me for years, until this morning. Now it just annoys me.

This issue could be fixed in an afternoon and everyone knows it. The issue is full to over flowing with misinformation. It's a fact that the amount of illegals from the boats barely register a BLIP on the overall picture of illegal immigration. Asylum seekers ... well ... we created half of them.

Why is then, that the government don't just fix it and run a campaign on educating the masses on the reality of what's actually on the boats?. What if they don't want to?.

Who exactly would the spotlight turn on if they actually fixed 'the boats' issue - which they could tomorrow - with some basic steps in place?.... wait for it .... waaaait .... tourists. The vast majority of illegals come off of expired visas. In order to gain ANY visa you have to prove you can sustain yourself for the period of your stay based on your type of visa. This means money. This money gets pumped straight back into the Australian economy until they run out of money then a huge percentage of the people on visas leave; a chunk don't.

Boat illegals come here with nothing. They are a cost from the get go. IF governments went completely right wing on the REAL illegal problem, how much tourism would we lose?. Illegal immigration from boats has so many red flag issues associated with it that it makes an EASY distraction from the REAL ineptitude of border defence. They CANNOT defend the border from individuals on holiday and working visas. But they can be seen to ATTEMPTING to defend the border from fishing boats.

Reverse psychology from the gubbermint. By being seen as struggling to fix the boat people 'problem' it distracts from the absolute inability to fix the illegals problem on the whole. Interesting thing.

WOW, that is an exceptional insight.

It's not often I learn something from the banality that constitutes the majority of OLO. But when it happens it's great..

I think you are definitely on to something there.

Thanks StG.

You are quite right StG. The visa-overstayers part of this issue could be so easily fixed if the will was there.

But no, our illustrious powers-that-be are quite happy to let a situation exist whereby federal law is being seriously infringed in an ongoing manner.

It stinks and it makes a complete mockery of the stated desire to stop the boats.

Of course, the boats should be stopped, our borders secured and our humanitarian efforts directed (and considerably increased) into our offshore refugee programs.

But at the same time, visa-overstayers and any longer term illegal immigrants that come via this path, need to be clamped right down, despite some resultant economic losses. Either that or the law has to be changed so that visa-overstayers are not breaking the law…. or some intermediate position reached whereby the rule of law is upheld and the economic losses are minimised.

Whatever the case, it wouldn’t be difficult…. if our government just had a few basic scruples.

... Thats a pretty big "if"...

Often a problem is created in order to sell a cure, but here there seems to be no cure and quite likely, not really a problem...

If you look on the internet, when the top tax falls below 45%, there is most likely a recession in the country, when it gets below 35% there is a depression, and things are not very great for people who are earning less than the average wage. You would have to look up on the internet, "tax in countries around the world", and you will see how the countries stand. Many of the countries don't have to have that low top tax, Australia, US, UK, and most of the countries don't have to have that low tax. It is a system of bastardry by idiots or rich corrupt treasurers to make the rich richer, and the poor poorer, and the people in the poorer countries know that if they get into a country that has resonable prospects, even through the people handling the tax system are pure bastards, they will still be better off. The higher the top tax ie the 66.6% in Australia from 1950 to 1970, was great, unfortunately you are not allowed to shoot them when they go feral and stupid, the authorities don't like it, pity, there are about 10 or so since 1970 who don't deserve any better than that, but they get away with a superannuation about 5 or 6 times more than those people who work for their living. Look up "tax history of Australia", "Tax history of US", and even "Tax history of UK". This last one will only tell you what level they had to take the tax up to to stop obscene incomes after the war.

You are missing the point entirely.

Anti boat people mania isnt about doing something about illegal immigration. It is about dog whistling to racists and scaring otherwise good Australians into thinking like racists in order to hold onto power. Divide and rule does not get more despicable and blatant than this.

It is only an issue because the Liberals and Murdoch et al make it so. If they shut up then there would be no issue. Ten or even twenty thousand refugees coming here by boat is nothing in the overall total and as past experience has shown almost all boat arrivals ARE genuine refugees and entitled to protection and sanctuary according to OUR OWN LAWS. Unlike so many visa overstayers who likely rip off our tax system and use our medical services and who knows what else just because it was a bit nippy in good old England or Canadia and they felt like an extended holiday downunder.

Abbott should be shamed and humiliated for his slogan "stop the boats" not almost made Prime minister.
Australia should be ashamed that we let this miscreant and his cronies deliberately inflame these negative tendencies in the Australian populace.
We need leaders who lead and set an example of tolerance and honesty not poll following morons filled with bigotry and hatred.

I actually meant to get on to tell you that the boat people thing isn'n any more than a diversion, to hide the inability of working out a decent system to cope with the unemployment of our people. There was never a need to head for the low 47% top tax, it is this that caused that sitution, the 66.6% in the 1950 to 1970, handled every thing quite well but when these wouldbe politicians are struggling to make themselves look wise and very capable, they grab at any straw to pull themselves out of a hole, and so - because the US headed for the low 35% tax, our usless gang decided to do the same, after all, wern't the yanks getting rich, well the CEO's etc were, but the workers and factories were fast running out of cash, into bankrupcy and losing homes, just like is happening here in Australia. A wonderful world, if there wesn't so many idiots.

STG,
Yeah perplexing to me too.

The previous government had stopped the boats from coming and then the present fools opened the door. They made a problem for us and themselves. Now they are running around trying to find places to put the illegals. Not to mention the poor buggers that drowned trying to get here after the present government encouraged them to try.

The facts are simple. If the boat people were ridgy didge they would fly here and then claim asylum instead of paying much more for a risky trip with smugglers. They are shonks and con artists, gate crashing our country, and they could be stopped overnight simply by not giving them what they want. Do not issue permanent residency visas, simple.

The "'boat people' thing" is a necessary diversion to avoid scrutiny of the over-enthusiastic immigration policies of both sides of government. It is an artifice that has worked well for years - give the punters something else to worry about.

The big boys want growth. That is where the big money is. So be it and never you mind.

I will risk it.
Number of Australians who link boat people to cultural enclaves is not small.
Of that number those who would vote based only on that issue is large.
Both party's think the ones who would vote to stop them have the biggest numbers, votes create policy's.
OK to point out its only a small over all number but water off a ducks back to those waiting of shore, those who do not want them, media intent on using any story to get a headline.

Dear Mikk,
If I break the rules of the road I pay the penalty if I am caught so what makes the rules of immigration different. Is it because I am racist or have have you a much deeper incite. Interested to see your answer.

Richie
I suggest you look up the laws in question. It is not illegal to come to Australia, by whatever means, and ask for asylum.

*We need leaders who lead and set an example of tolerance and honesty not poll following morons filled with bigotry and hatred.*

In that case Mikk, we'd need a leader who finally admitted to
everyone, that the 1951 UN Convention is 60 years out of date,
full of holes and is openly misused by those with money, who
can tell a story and who seek economic migration for money
and a cushy lifestyle.

Meantime the poor buggers stuck in refugee camps miss out,
because all our resources (about a billion$ ) are thrown
at the boats. Hardly wise spending.

The solution is simple. Take no refugees who try to sail
here, take them all from refugee camps.

Visa overstayers have papers and they have return tickets.
They eventually go home and meantime pick an increasing
share of our fruits and vegetables. They cost us nothing.
The backpacker tourism industry earns Australia a fair
bit of money.

Where do I look up those laws Mikk and why is it that when I travel I am subjected to Laws.

mikk,
You know full we that it is unlawfull/illegal for a non citizen to enter Aus without a valid visa. You have been around OLO long enough to know that and yet you persist with propagating incorrect information. Because we are easy going we do not charge those with that offence if they then ask for asylum, but we can and do detain them. We cannot detain people that enter legally with a valid visa.

Belly,
Comon ole fella, there was not a problem with boat people when Labor took office. Labor created the present problem and if it cost them votes then it is their own fault. Do not try and blame others for things your mob created. I hope both parties now see that we people do not accept gate crashers and the uninvited. We are being conned by these boat people and at least most people can see that. You best tell your party members that fact.

Riche,
Don't ask mikk for advice, he will give you a bum steer. If you want to get advice ask the DIAC, most stuff is on their website.

Illegal boat arrivals are detained to try and establish from where they came. Arrivals by air, without a valid visa are detained until the first available flight back to where they embarked, by the airline that brought them.

Richie and the rest of you.

"Australia’s Refugee and Humanitarian Program offers protection to asylum seekers who have entered Australia, either without a visa or as temporary entrants, and who are found to be owed Australia’s protection under the United Nations 1951 Convention and 1967 Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees (the Refugees Convention) and relevant Australian laws."

Taken directly from the department of immigration and citizenship's website.
http://www.immi.gov.au/refugee/seeking_protection.htm

Where does it say it is illegal? It IS illegal to come here without papers and NOT apply for asylum. If you are a refugee it is not demanded of you that you have papers etc as refugees, by their very nature rarely have any. How many despotic and dictatorial states hand out passports and visas to those they persecute? How does a failed state provide documents to those who are fleeing?

I state again...
Anyone in the world is entitled to come to Australia and seek asylum by any means they have. Once they get here if they are assessed as a true refugee we give them protection and citizenship. If they are not refugees we send them back. What is so hard to understand and why do you keep falling for the dog whistles?

Dear Mikk,
Would it be stating the obvious to call them que jumpers as they must have had papers when they arrived in S.E.Asia before they took a very dangerous and expensive boat trip to Australian Waters. Either you are bloody gullible or very niave. You have to have papers to travel in S.E.Asia, I know from travel in that area.

Just for da rekord..visa overstayers are a SMALLLL part of 'the problem'.

They do not constitute any large scale 'illegal immigration' because if you actually read the immigration stuff, they are caught and despatched quick smart.

What IS true...is that at any one time...there are many visa overstayers.. but they are not 'migrants'. The actual people among that 'many' change with the due processing and re-cycling back to their home countries.

There you go Bugsy.. you just learnt something.

AGIR

That's my point. So where's the problem with illegal immigration?. Why's it such a huge platform?. This topic isn't just highlighted by everyone aiming for government, this is in the top two. Why?. Really, it's a non-issue.

For goodness sake, when you say we can't take any more, look at the population of the other countries, the density of the UK for instance is about 400 persons per sq kilometer, in Australia it is about 4 per kilometer and Australia is 25 times the size of the Uk, and the situtation in other countries is much the same.The trouble is that we have always had plenty, and just don't want to share it with someone who needs it. The problem with the boat people is it is a great diversion to take away the poor economy we have put to by the parties over the last 40 years, but particularly the last 20 years. Our country is not being run by intelligent people with tops in integrity, they are greedy missfits who shouldn't be allowed in a shop or any place with valuables, without a keeper.

@STG.... to be truthful...I think it's the perception that we are being backdoored..undermined.. used... and that if we don't clamp down hard...the numbers will swell.

Even though it seems a trickle by some yardsticks.. the cumulative impace of the old faithful bogey men...

-Political outlook
-Religious creed
-Social values

are what concern many.. certainly me.

Putting this to the test.. when the Coalition took a hard line, boats slowed/stopped. When labor took a 'compassionate' (soft spineless) line..they increased.. a lot. Extrapolating this... clearly the trend is for 'more' if we are soft.

Given that we have a hung parliament right now, small numbers of votes can and do make a bigggg difference. They determine the Prime Minister...Immigration policy..Alliances with other countries and so on.

Looking at the US example.. now we see desperate Democrats in panic mode, reaching out to try to sure up power through the Latino community. 12 million new democract votes would be a hard chunk of temptation to resist mate...if all you cared about was *power*...and it increasingly seems that is the case.

StG I think you have understood it pretty well. It is an issue that is used to distract from greater problems within the parliamentary system, economics, unfair superannuation and pension levels, lack of real health reform etc, and used as a wedge in election campaigns particularly in some marginal seats. Despite the political rhetoric though, I do think most Australians see through this type of electioneering which was evident in the results at the polls.

The fact is asylum seekers constitute a very small percentage of total immigration figures and those who are found not to be refugees are dispatched to their country of origin or place of departure. The recent 4Corners Report highlighted the problems inherent in assessing refugee status, the risk of the boat journey and the complete lack of moral judgement on the part of smugglers.

There is certainly room for fraudulent claims under the asylum seeker protections but these are usually easily determined once identification is verified. Many of those who were left in detention centres were those whose identities could not be verified and who were found not to be legitimiate refugees but those seeking to circumvent the immigration process.

It would be a sad state if we repeated the mistakes of WWII which saw Jewish refugees being turned away in horrible circumstances.

StG's perfectly correct of course. Mind you, if the odious Abbott get his way and forces us back to the polls, you can bet your life that he'll bring out the dog whistle that he managed to mostly conceal during the last campaign.

'Boat people' are only an issue for the xenophobic and/or racist minority, who are only relevant when cynical politicians want to harness their bigotry in order to get elected. Otherwise, they are rightly an embarrassment to the rest of us and generally ignored.

Not going to bother reading the comments, it all comes down to this:
Opposition to 'boat people' (broad term) comes down to:
-Opposition to persons from fundamentaly religious, culturally-unstable and tribalistic areas of the world (Afghanistan, Somalia) for fears they will not integrate, become hostile, religious loonies (Hilali, Hizb ut Tahir), violent and/or criminally-inclined (Skaf).
-Opposition to Tamils for fear they might be Tigers

That's it- debate's over everyone, move on.

Nobody gives a toss about rickety boats, naughty people smugglers or visa-overstayers, but personal safety against those who may be on the boats.

What annoys me more than the people who make up these excuses so people don't call them racist, are the opposition who entertain this bullshize and keep the debate on its downward spiral.

STOP IT.

*'Boat people' are only an issue for the xenophobic and/or racist minority*

CJ, if your theory were correct, then those people would be making
an issue of all refugees who come here from refugee camps and
are brought in by the Australian Govt as part of the annual intake.

That not being the case, your theory is clearly flawed!

By and large I agree with StG and more so with CJ.

I would put my own take in that I have little acceptance for anyone's behavior who

a. Brings their cultural prejudices with them and tries to foster them here.
This particularly refers to the perhaps 2-3% extremists in each.
Not only Muslims but Jews, Brits, Irish, New Zealanders and South Africans.

b. those individuals that believe that subscribe to master race/ religion

c. Those Aussies who are wantonly so ignorant that try to excuse this ignorance as 'nationalism'.

d anyone who seeks to exploit any of the above for their own paronoid purposes.

My experience has shown me that terms like racism are in fact subsets of the above ignorance which begets fear which has morphed into fear xenophobic paranoia et al.

Boaz
You need to check your facts. Your assertions are assuming non existent superiority in your religious beliefs to the point you more often than not try to impose them on others even they have little basis in reality. proportion dear boy proportion.

St G
Your bit about Refugees costing us money is extremely myopic.
If the government spends money to support these people then there is the multiplier effect in that it also generates employment which in turn increased demand and so the economic wheel goes around.

I defy anyone to prove to me that asylum seekers don't *in the long run* economically generate more benefits that disadvantages...the payback maybe a little longer than Good ole homegrown Aussies. However I have seen indicative research that shows that much of our (at least) small business entrepreneurial drive comes from our diverse ethnicity.

Frankly, the whole paranoid debate is myopic dog whistling manipulation nonsense.

Oh my Exammy :) talk about an AGIR hunt.... whack whack whack... *ouch*

No mate.. you say:

Your assertions are assuming non existent superiority in your religious beliefs to the point you more often than not try to impose them on others even they have little basis in reality.

I certainly DO believe my faith fundamentals are vastly superior morally and spiritually to those of other religions.. specially any faith which actively declares it's intent and modus operandi to subjugate all others under their political umbrella.

But having said that.. it's not the 'superiority' of my faith foundations which drives me to oppose the 'boat people'...some of who would inevitably be Christians fleeing Islamic persecution. (some of that persecution comes from other boat people...Muslims.. and it's been welllll and truly documented in Government reports as we saw long ago from a couple of posters. (I did read the reports)

No..not 'my faith is superior'..but speaking as an Australian who is aware of the predominant values we live by....I simply don't like being undermined by people who may or may not have a nefarious agenda.

Have you seen any of the Anti Israel demonsstrations in Sydney or Melbourne ? hmmmmmm ? how many of those rabble are

a) Communists.
b) Migrants from Arab/Muslim countries)
c) All of the above.

The point most of you are blissfully ignoring is that 'boat people' contribute numerically to a class of population which is easily exploitable by communists, and don't think they don't know it (The communists)

CJ just blows bubbles of PC soap solution and seems oblivious of the very existence of political manipulation by highly organized and motivated groups (other than his own...but for him/them...that's ok)

Sure.. our Polies use the issue to score points.. hmm gee.. is that because it is an issue of concern to sufficient numbers of people to justify it being 'an issue' ? They sure as heck won't be sharpening an axe which will LOSE them votes..now will they?

Mikk,
You are simply playing with words and Puting spin on the situation.

The facts are that anyone entering Aus must have valid documents.

It is against the law not to do so. See the DIAC websites below.

http://www.immi.gov.au/managing-australias-borders/border-security/travel/

http://www.immi.gov.au/managing-australias-borders/border-security/illegal-entry/

http://www.immi.gov.au/managing-australias-borders/border-security/travel/documents/

I believe you will also find that the UN states that persons seeking asylum must also obey a countries laws regarding entry.

Because the 'Ilegals' are unlawfull/illegal is the reason we can detain them. We do not detain those who enter legally with valid documents.

[Deleted for flaming].

Banjo
I am not "playing with words. You are mistaken.

The people you(and your links)are referring to are people who come here to live, without a visa/papers and ARENT REFUGEES.

If you are a refugee you are allowed to enter Australia, with or without visa/papers etc, to apply for asylum.

These are two separate issues and you, and others, seem too unintelligent to understand the difference. Do you even understand what a refugee is?

We detain people because we are led by racist, dog whistling scum, prepared to torture and mistreat people to try and stay in power.

As I said before, past experience has shown that virtually all boat arrivals ARE genuine refugees and after their lengthy torture at the hands of our government they have almost all been granted residence and citizenship. We also have to pay for their medical treatment and ongoing mental issues as a result of us wonderful Aussies locking them up for years. In many cases longer than you would get for murder or rape! Supporters of this disgusting system should hang their heads in shame.

Richie
What type of documents exactly can someone get from the Taliban? Im sure the Sri Lankan government were lining up to hand out visas to the tamils. NOT!
What cant you understand about someone fleeing a murderous or despotic regime not being able to just wander into their governments offices and ask for a passport or a visa? What is so hard to understand that when the troops or the mob are coming up the road and you have to flee you may not have time to grab your "papers"?

Your lack of empathy and charity sickens me. All of you.

OK so I am xenophobic racist and throw in red neck with it.
Lets forget those people who wait who have not got the cash to break the law.
Lets forget the few anti Australian trouble makers who came this way.
Every day I learn some thing new, I thought I was just aware of a problem, one that may haunt this country for generations.
And while I failed maths surely if more do not want boat people than do and will vote that way is it not clear both party's must react.
I am not happy to cross verbal swords with CJM but can we.those who hold views you do not like all be racists?
every day I hear people from most of this worlds country's saying not just here but world wide, uninvited gate crashers concern them.
Fact is most of the world is concerned at growing separatism within our country's, growing numbers ,far too many for this country to take, wanting to come.
Labor with my support tried a softer way, it failed.
I forever am Labor union worker but not a racist.
Have we all given to Pakistan? I did today bit short this week now but this racist xenophobic will not see kids starve if he can help it, may be another few weeks before I hit the tin for OLO GY.

I think the overriding issue is security. Boat arrivals have no documents yet they travelled legally from home through airports and across borders to reach the demarcation point. Thousands of families wait in refugee camps year in and year out for an opportunity come to Australia, they are on the list, but they have missed the boat it seems. We should have the right to screen their documents not just their story before they enter, the Indonesians did.

Dear Mikk,
To get to SE Asia they had papers as they didn't have wings attached or a tail so they came in through SE Asia not direct from Afghanistan or Sri Lanka. Your lack of intregity and B/S sicken me. Don't play the hurt card as it is obvious you are twisting the story to get your perceived outcome.

"To get to SE Asia they had papers"

So they floated on their "papers" did they?

Would it be ok by you if they did come direct from Afghanistan or Sri Lanka? Whats the difference. Are they refugees or not?

I ask again do you even know what a refugee is?

The crux of the matter is you lot dont recognise or comprehend what a refugee is and why we offer them our protection.

If you think we shouldnt accept them fair enough then fight for a change of our laws and responsibilities under the UN treaties. Bear in mind how it will make our extremely lucky and wealthy country look in the eyes of the world to be turning our backs on people in need. But dont rabbit on with this total garbage pushed by the conservatives that boat people are illegal, or queue jumpers or potential terrorists etc etc etc.

Dear Mikk,
Are there no honourable men left, are all corrupt, If so this world is surely in REAL trouble. Mikk are you the only righteous man standing between the rest of us and Armageddon, or is it time to say " SIT DOWN SATIN". I honestly do not know whether you are gullible or corrupt but you definitely do not travel in the same world I travel. I do not judge you as there is one other who is the Judge and He is Truth and has compassion for sinners. If you don't know him yet I suggest you seek him out while grace remains. To get to SE Asia they had papers and money. To get a seat on the boat they had a lot of money. I grew up in the midst of the migrant boom and there is none so dumb as he who does not wish to be understood " noo spiker de ingles ", but have found most to be the same because there is only one race, the human race. So it is your choice whether you belong to the Good Shepherd, or to the large flock of goats. I haven't heard or any boats from Sri Lanka or Afghanistan so to get to SE Asia they had money and papers(travel documents) so what did they do with those documents. Again I repeat Que Jumpers. Encouraged by the soft approach to disregard the laws of travel. You would be the first to scream foul if they came and destroyed your house and made it very personal.

Mikk,
You really need to distinguish between fairy tale themes, found in publications by such groups as the BROTHERS GRIMM or GETUP, and reality.

1<<The crux of the matter is you lot dont recognise or comprehend what a refugee is>>

Your own words out you as having no comprehension as to what a refugee is,and even less understanding of the real world situation.

2<< Bear in mind how it will make our extremely lucky and wealthy country>>

Us being wealthy should have nothing to do our obligation under the convention. Under the convention that you appeal to, a “refugee” is someone seeking shelter from persecution ( not someone seeking to upgrade from economy class to first class!) . So whether that shelter is afforded by a five star location or a one star location should have NO bearing .

[ and lets face it –and while we’re at it, defuse your predictable knee jerk response -- even in the poorest location/shelter their upkeep costs are provided largely by the UN or NGOs which derive their funds from the “extremely lucky and wealthy “ countries]

If you are talking about AID –then, that is another issue ,but you are not – you are talking about a REFUGE or SAFE HAVEN!

So please stop the extortionist / manipulatory reference to us being an “ extremely lucky and wealthy country” and therefore bond to …

3 << look in the eyes of the world to be turning our backs on people in need>>

Again, you’ve spouting fairy tale lines.Though in your defence it is a common delusion that many “advocates” suffer from (it must be contagious!)

Australia provides its share of assistance to the needy, via peace keepers in such places as East Timor and the Solomon’s, scholarships to third world students (and even backdoor citizenship if they have skills in the vital & strategic industries of hair dressing or cooking!) , and straight AID.

With regard to the refugees scam. The reality is, there is hardly a country in the world that is keen on accepting refugees (see footnote 1,below) . And in most countries the processes are a lot,lot,lot tougher, and a lot less accommodating (read less naïve) than those found in OZ.

When you get a moment have a read of this –it may help

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10669#177567

Footnote 1 : Please exclude the Mikks, who afflict every nation, and the careerists aspiring to UN positions, for such are not representative of their nations–and in most cases such beings are not even real people.

Belly,
You say "Labor, with my support, tried a softer approach. It failed"

Good on you, it takes guts to admitt a mistake. Sometimes it seems cruel to be kind. Peeople do not like to be conned and our generosity being taken advantage of. That is what happened, this last two years.

CJ calls me racist and Mikk claims I lack emphathy, but I do feel for the 160 or so that drowned in the last couple of years trying to get here and I feel for the thousnds sitting in rotten camps while those with money come here uninvited. There are those here who encourage the gate crashers. These people just cannot seem to grasp that the boat people are frauds and cheats.

I just hope your party is sincere in their changed policy and I know you will work to convince your party members that the policy change is needed.

Your attitude is in some danger of becoming outdated, Horus.

>>Us being wealthy should have nothing to do our obligation under the convention... So please stop the extortionist / manipulatory reference to us being an “ extremely lucky and wealthy country”<<

Even the world's billionaires have realized that their wealth is not solely the result of their innate brilliance, and have pledged to give some back.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/aug/04/us-billionaires-half-fortune-gates

"We're hoping America, which is already the most generous society on earth, becomes more generous over time," said Warren Buffet

Being a miserly dog-in-the-manger, and muttering mealy-mouthed complaints about not being obligated, might soon go out of fashion entirely.

Who knows.

Pericles, it's fine for those who are well off to be generous with their money, it is not, however for them to be generous with some one else's, particularly when many of those who are well off,

1/ Don't think they are.

2/ Don't have much idea of how the other half have to live.

Public servants, teachers, nursers etc are always agitating for more money, but they are very well paid, compared to many. A check out chick, a labourer, a counter jumper in the local hardware store, or a pensioner, would think they had gone to heaven, if they had that kind of income. A number of pensioners i know only take their prescription medicine every second day, because it's that, or eat every second day.

I think it's about time the generous among us stopped wanting to spend other peoples money, so they feel better. When it comes to charity, try the old one, & spread a bit around at home, where it should begin.

The half a million each of these boat people cost us is ridiculous, when the elderly can't get the hip replacement, because of no budget.

If you generous ones want to help, you do so, but at your own cost. Instead of wanting all of us to pay for your desire, you sponsor a refugee yourself. Pick up the tab, & feel good. Stick them in your spare bedroom if you like, but leave me out of it. I have other areas where my generosity is aimed, & it sure ain't que jumper illegals.

Boazy: << The point most of you are blissfully ignoring is that 'boat people' contribute numerically to a class of population which is easily exploitable by communists, and don't think they don't know it (The communists) >>

OMG, it's reds under the beds! And there I was thinking that McCarthyism had died out in the 1950s. Mind you, boat people as fodder for communism is one of the more originally disingenuous disguises for xenophobia that I've seen lately. Stop the boats - they're full of wretched souls who'll join the alienated proletariat and foment revolution! Man the barricades! The Bolsheviks are coming - by boat!

Banjo: << CJ calls me racist >>

I haven't called you anything in this thread, but your persistence in vilifying boat arrivals as "illegal" and as "frauds and cheats" is evidence of deep-seated bigotry. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that bigotry is racist in nature.

A couple of points Mikk.

Firstly much of the third world is still actively tribal. In Africa
the Bantu debate wether the pygmies are really human and persecute
them. The Xhosas are persecuted by the Zulus, the Blacks are
persecuted by the Arabs. In Afhanistan the Pashtuns persecute the
Hazaras and the Taliban persecute anyone who disagrees with them.
The global list is endless and involves billions.

Now under the UN Convention you only need to have a legitimate fear
of persecution and you will be classed as a refugee if you wish.

Given that its a large part of the human population who would have
a right to claim asylum if they wish, how many millions do you
think we should take?

Australia has set a figure, 13'000 a year. Fair enough. Surely
those should be the most deserving, not the richest who can bribe
their way here? Surely the billion$ that we throw at this, should
be taxpayers money wisely spent to help the most needy?

There is no way that any Govt official can accurately assess who
on a boat is genuine and who is not.

Yet we know from the stream of millions of Mexicans heading for
the USA etc, that economic migration is as much a drawcard as
anything. People risk their lives and die for a richer and
better lifestyle.

The only people who we know are genuine refugees are those
in refugee camps, or they would not be there.

Rather then waste the huge amount of resources on such a few
individuals as we do, its time we updated the UN Convention
and the handling of asylum seekers. The present system is
simply not working as it was intended to

If we had 2,000 Taliban coming in fishing boats to our northern borders; since Australia is at war with them. Would we not want to know who they are and detain them for health and security checks?

<<Your attitude is in some danger of becoming outdated, Horus>>
<< Being a miserly dog-in-the-manger, and muttering mealy-mouthed complaints about not being obligated, might soon go out of fashion entirely>>

Not at all Pericles, my “attitude” ( if one takes account of the whole post & context ) is highly likely to becoming the norm as more wake up to how unworkable the UN refugee convention is.

And to characterise it as “dog-in-the manger” is a mite inaccurate since it implies that I/we am seeking to denying someone something I/we have no desire/use for – which is 180 degrees from the truth. I would have thought Horatius at the bridge would have been more apt!

<< Even the world's billionaires have realized that their wealth is not solely the result of their innate brilliance, and have pledged to give some back>> .
You make it sound like it’s a novel development , its been happening for generations -- as Buffett attests: “America, …is already the most generous society on earth”

Yabby quote "Much of the third world is still actively tribal".

The ENTIRE world is tribal. That's why we have separate countries. In a civilised world there would be NO countries and NO borders (subject to health/medical restrictions of course).

In many ways we are still intellectually no more advanced than we were in the Stone Age ...... our tribal nature is one such example. My better half agrees with that, she often calls me "the neanderthal".

Remarkable insight by Benq...."The enitre world is tribal",

Now..Benny, all you have to do is persuade Pericles and CJ Morgan of this reality, and the cosmos will be back in balance.

Sadly, even if you can persuade them of this, the next task is to clarify the implications, but that, I'm afraid, might be toooo much for their current neuronic matrix to cope with.

If you want to get serious about the boat problem, simply blow up a few marinas and jetties. Maybe talk to the guy at the boat shop and see if he wouldnt be happier selling motorbikes or cars instead. If that does not work, simply set up a huge magnet at a weird angle so they all head off towards NZ instead of the former marina site.

Wholeheartedly share Yabby's view here.

A lot of people are afraid of boat people. Julius Caesar, Willian the Conqueror, Christoper Columbus, the Pilgrim Fathers and of course our very own First Fleet all carried boat people.
All the boat people killed off large numbers of the indiginous populations by warfare and/or introduced dideases. Having stolen the land they then proceeded to trash the land by chopping down the forests, polluting the waterways and in Australia turning large areas into salt.

Some good news from the UNHCR

http://www.unhcr.org/4c657ec69.html

Look forward to reports that Tamils granted permanent residence here and those in detention are also planning to return home.

But maybe the new lifestyle is too good here for them to contemplate that.

Peace,
You blokes never learn. The simple reason that we do not like the boat people is that we do not like being conned and do not want gate crashers. Surely that is not hard to comprehend