There seems to be a willingness to discuss this topic on other threads, so lets give it a topic area of its own.

Do we keep pouring money into the problems faced by the various groups of aborigines in this country? What is the solution to their situation? IS there a solution to their situation?

It seems that the general public is in a sticky situation over aboriginal welfare. On one hand if the government does nothing, it is accused of neglect and racism. If programs as well as money are implemented to target specific identified problems, the govt is accused of meddling in affairs that aren’t their own, and being paternalistic. What is the balance?

I firmly believe that most Australians from any background want to see ALL people given opportunity and access. This will necessarily become trickier with those that live in remote areas, as to have that equality of access, children must generally leave home (which is seen as a bad thing in itself by some, but is no different to any other child living in a remote area – eg white children will generally be sent to boarding school).

But in order for any program or assistance to have a true effect, those of aboriginal background who receive assistance need to do so without having a chip on their shoulder. Assistance needs to be given not because of “race”, but because of situation, and it needs to be received the same way. I know a number people of aboriginal descent (having lived in some predominantly black communities), and many have done well for themselves. They are NOT a credit to their “race”. They are a credit to themselves. They often have come from disadvantaged backgrounds, and have seized whatever opportunity that has come their way. This is the way it should be for all people in this country, whether black, white or pink-with-purple-polka-dots. Give people equality of opportunity to the highest degree possible, then leave it to them to make of it what they will.

Victim mentality whether it is held by white or black will always lead to you believing people owe you. I have seen this with Social Security where the dole becomes a right instead of a privilege.

I have lived and worked with aboriginal people and find often those who want to get ahead are critised by their own people. They are called cocunuts (black on outside and white on inside).

In the past the fault was those 'rotten Christians' who took away their culture. The fact is that some things in their culture need to go if they want to live in modern society. If they don't they will continue to remain poor and be entrapped by acholol and all the horrible fruits that come with it (child abuse etc).

For those with a genuine concern for the indigneous it is often heartbreaking to see uncared for children, battered men and women. I think we are more concerned about being politically correct than dealing with issues.

I have known people come from overseas who are astounded that they did not see whites beating up the blacks and treating them like slaves. Just goes to show how strong propaganda can affect peoples views.

I think for perspective on this topic, we need to look at other colonised countries who have been through their own process of reconciliation.

Any tertiary glance will show that this is never a smooth or quick process. Native Americans and African Americans are still at a significant disadvantage (in some parts of the US more than others), because despite great progress, old prejudice remains. In Canada however they have made great steps towards proper reconciliation with the Inuits, and in fact Australia could learn a lot from the steps they took to get where they are today.

Anyway the point is wherever you look, it appears to take a long time to recover from such initial devastation. 200 years is really not that long at all. We're a very, very young country, and have a lot to learn and a lot of growing up to do.

The 'how can we help them if they dont help themselves?' line has been used all over the world in different periods of history, you'd think we'd learn by now that it is not a helpful attitude.

It is very true that you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. This applies in welfare provided to both black and white people, and it applies to people in various other circumstances (in particular I think of those addicted to smoking, who continue despite knowing the damage that they are doing to themselves, and despite various avenues being available to help kick the habit). In this case we (the community in general) can provide cushions to help soften the fall, but we shouldnt be held responsible for the decisions of individuals not to act. We dont live in a State where it is acceptable to force an individual to undertake something (and nor should we). But that then implies that each individual has to take responsibility for their actions (or inactions).

Discussions around assistance and problems with our indiginous community are forced to be far too PC, for effective discourse to take place. As soon as a problem is raised, the call of "racist" arises, and that puts a halt to any progression. I'm not trying to say that there is never any racism, but that the label is used far too often by those simply trying to avoid facing a problem, or trying to cover their own tracks. I just dont know how this can be combated for the good of everyone.

Country Gal "We dont live in a State where it is acceptable to force an individual to undertake something (and nor should we). " - not quite true (talk to some of CSA's payer clients) but I agree with the sentiment.

I'm hoping that this thread works to further discussion without degenerating into a slanging match. I'd like to get a better understanding of what we can do as a nation to help address some of the issues and to see what fits within my own values.

Rainer made a good point about delivering education in a culturally relevant manner on one of the other threads. A topic I'd like to see explored more. I'm also interested in how students from schools like the one Rainer mentioned fare when moving back into mainstream settings (other schools, tertiary education and the workplace) - are their outcomes better or worse than counterparts who have been in the mainstream all along.

I tend to distrust "affirmative action" as in my view it creates an inequity between individuals based on perceived group inequities which may not apply to the individuals concerned. I'm keen to hear from those who like affirmative action about how they see that issue.

Are their ways of moving past some of the issues faced by Australia at the moment without doing yet more harm?

R0bert

R0bert, I get your point! A risk of making sweeping statements, I am afraid!! :)

Yes, I too would like to see some constructive debate, rather than an us vs them slanging match.

One of the problems with identifying disadvantage and seeking to rectify it, is that you run the risk of creating a victim mentality in the very person that you are trying to help. You know, the old "do gooders do more harm than good". I dont think that people tend to take on this victim mentality deliberately, it comes more as an awakening, when someone points out that you have a "problem" or have been discriminated against. I'm not saying that anyone should be left in the dark, but that by putting a situation in a different light, you can provoke a different reaction. This is the case in many different situations, not just one that pertains to disadvantaged people, or people of a minority (or majority) group or race.

So many threads in so many forums about this problem, in one sadly gone Aussie forum so real hope as debate flowed freely.
Yes its only my view but far too many who have had next to no contact with Australias first people get involved in things they will never understand.
So my involvment? I have always been a country bloke and grew up alongside these people.
My nephew is married into the comunity and some of my lifetime mates are part of it.
I have helped in any way I could any one wanting help and that includes finding work and of course in lending money that is never returned.
Very few in this comunity are in any way interested in self help, some spend every minute of every day waiting for payment for the loss of a culture they abandoned generations ago.
Thats a start more follows.

The streets are indeed full of teenage criminals and racists and many are Aboridginals.
And seperate education or education based on Aboridginal culture is not the answer, in fact it is racist in the exteme to educate at a lower level or to educate for a culture that is fractured and in truth rarly exists.
Education for two cultures but not one.
Some dress and dances at local events come from a culture that never was Australian as people struggle to fill in gaps of 200 years of neglect of their own culture.
We can not let people forget young Aboridginals mostly do not get and do not want education.
And we must if they get it help them use it jobs that mean something are a start.
Nore should we forget in some cases storeys of the miss handled but mostly well intentioned stolen generation keeps children in dreadfull danger in the very homes that see sexual assults inflicted on them.
Racist? we the white Australians may well be!,see its our duty no matter what it takes to see this is the last generation that is payed sit down money paid to fail.
If tought love is the answer so be it failure is not an option.
And the best leaders are already within the comunity why do we feed the problem with money and make it worse?

I'm posting to simply point out that the author of this general discussion post is quite obviously not abreast of the history, policy or politics of the topic at hand. This general discussion post is simply to verify confirm and seek support for her own bigoted perspectives.

Any attempt to engage in discussion by those who are more informed, literate, and intellectually able is futile. You are therefore warned that engagement is at your own risk.

Country Gal has posed a considered and non-confrontational question. Ranier, however, after declining to start a thread himself as I suggested, has jumped in with his usually warnings – “the author of this post is quite obviously not abreast of the history, politics of the topic at hand”.

And: “Any attempt to engage in discussion by those who are more informed, literate, and intellectually able is futile. You are therefore warned that engagement is at your own risk.”

In other words, Ranier has again attempted to stifle all discussion on the subject. No white person should have the gall to comment, he thinks. In this, he and other militants with a more public role than Ranier are their own worst enemies. They are right. Whitey is wrong, despite the fact that whitey has bent over backwards to be PC and provide the money.

Good luck to those of you who care to voice an opinion. I am done with the silliness of aborigines versus weak, indulgent governments.

The whole aboriginal question is just one of many examples of how Australia is going down the gurgler, thanks to moronic politicians and complacent citizens

My warning also refers to Leigh, Lonely Man and Classical Mickey Mouse social and cultural theorist.

Rainier, if I was only interested in seeking support for my own opinions, then I wouldnt bother engaging in debate with you, given that you seem not to agree with me. The idea behind this discussion was a) to give it its own topic area rather than to keep clogging the debate on other threads, and b) to try and generate both debate and some constructive ideas. To devolve into a slanging match, where you just say that I am bigoted achieves nothing, except to lend support to my arguements about victim mentality. In a debate on an emotionally charged topic such as this, there are always going to be strong opinions on either side, with plenty falling in between. Do try not to take these as a personal affront, unless they are expressly addressed as such, as we then just slog out the old "I'm right, you're wrong" and get no where.

Fair enough CG,

If you want to engage with me I don't have time to unpack whatever knowledge you have on the topic.

Here is a very small taste of the literature that I've been reading, researching and writing from and about over the last decade.

Fish them out of your local uni library, have a read, have a think, then we can dialogue.

How much fairer could I be? Or didn’t you think this topic required some in depth knowledge, just a coffee-table chit chat, is that what you want?

---

• Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Justice Commissioner (2003) Social Justice Report 2003, AGPS, Canberra.

• Ah Mat, R (2003) The Moral Case for Indigenous Capitalism. Address to the NTRB ‘Native Title on the Ground’ Conference, Alice Springs, 5 June 2003.

• Altman, JC & Hunter, BH (2004) ‘Monitoring “practical” reconciliation: evidence from the reconciliation decade, 1991–2001’. CAEPR Discussion Paper No.254, Centre for Aboriginal Economic Policy Research, ANU, Canberra.

• Cornell, S (2002) ‘The Importance and Power of Aboriginal Self-Governance: Cowlishaw, G (1998) ‘Erasing culture and race: practising “self-determination”’,Oceania, 68(3): 145–69.

• Dodson, M & Smith, DE (2003) ‘Governance for sustainable development: strategic issues and principles for Aboriginal Australian Communities’. CAEPR Discussion Paper No. 250, ANU, Canberra.

• Finlayson, J (2004) Success in Aboriginal Communities: A Pilot Study, Report prepared for the Australian Collaboration, AIATSIS, Canberra.

• Martin, DF (1995) ‘Money, business and culture: issues for Aboriginal economic policy’. CAEPR Discussion Paper No. 101, Centre for Aboriginal Economic
• Policy Research, ANU, Canberra.
 (2001) ‘Is welfare dependency ‘welfare poison’? An assessment of Noel Pearson’s proposals for Aboriginal welfare reform’. CAEPR Discussion Paper No. 213, Centre for Aboriginal Economic Policy Research, ANU,Canberra.

 (2003) ‘Rethinking the design of Aboriginal organisations: the need for strategicengagement’. CAEPR Discussion Paper No. 248, Centre for Aboriginal Economic Policy Research, ANU, Canberra.

• Martin, DF & Finlayson, JD (1996) ‘Linking self-determination and accountability in Aboriginal organisations’. CAEPR Discussion Paper No. 116, Centre for Aboriginal Economic Policy Research, ANU, Canberra.

Rainier, I knew you had to be more than just a pretty face.

Thank you for that list. It will make interesting reading in the coming months.

I wonder if you know anyone who has researched the outcomes of people from "The stolen generation" and their descendants, and compared them with their contempraries who remained in the tribal areas.

VK3AUU, it would indeed be interesting to see a study that compares both the emotional state with material well-being and achievement as well as health, and also looks at the impact on their children in the same light.

Rainier, thank you for the reading list. Are any of these online? I am more than 200kms from the nearest uni library and not likely to visit in the near future. Whilst I know you can get things posted to you, its a lot of fiddling around when my time is in very short-supply anyway. I'm all for the easiest access method possible!

I guess a lot of my take on things comes from experience and having lived in 5 towns in my reasonably short life (mainly within the kamilaroi and wiradjuri areas, from one end of NSW to the other), and seeing the vastly different interactions between the black and white populations of these towns, and the vastly different situations of the black populations in these towns. This has ranged from middle-class to the bottom of the poverty line. I have worked with people of aboriginal descent and seen their derision for those of their own people who refuse to take on responsibility for themselves. I have lived in towns where my "race" has been in the minority, and have had a face to face confrontation with a black man who wandered into my home uninvited by the back door and abused me for being a white c, as well as having a group of youths try to hijack my car when pulled up in the street (heck, by Amel's standards that would make it understandable for me to be racist). I certainly dont make myself out to be an expert, but at the same time recognise that experience is often better than scholarly reading (yes, bet the postgrad students hate that comment).

vk3auu welcome from vk2bel, rainier lets not get into that rubbish!
Threats and that junk I mean.
You may be the brightest star in the Aboridginal sky but how it it actions of 200 yearts ago that see sexual assults in Aboridginal homes tonight?
At 5 or ten times the rate outside? truth is closer to 50 times national average.
Why do women get flogged in terrable numbers every week all over Australia?
So if us white Australians all left today would it change?
If we never came would it still be unclaimed by others?
If we this very day put one tenth of the nations wealth into your peoples hands as sorry money how long would it take before it was gone?
Not only bleeding hearted white liberals hurt the Aboridginals, some within care more about personal ego than suffering kids.

CG, No worries, racism isn't something you get rid of overnight, its a life long learning approach, i'm still working through my demons too. Its those that think racism is a simplistic thing that infuriate me, if it was we would have got rid of it long ago.

For me, the study of race relations and its theory is the most complex of all social sciences and scholarship because it attends to and exists in all human relations and human history.

I admit i do tend to call 'racism' it out loud, but mostly to draw attention rather than to persecute. I know the pitfalls of the 'boy who cried wolf'.

I'll post you some online reading next post.

VK3AAU,

I'll dig through my research and find something specific to what you asked for.

Cheers to u both,

I again want an answer from Aboridginal posters here, not as a racist but as a grown white Australian male who has often cryed openly over the matter.
How has white invasion bought us to child rape often male on male in this comunity in such large numbers?
Why do so very many females get bashed so very often?
Why are we debateing past crimes but not these dreadfuul ones?
To site admin some threads see some posters limited to 2 posts a day?
Is free speach only for some? like those you agree with?
Rainier lets help these kids FIRST.

Belly, firstly you will find the posting rules vary between the article and general pages. As far as I'm aware posters all get the same limits (I did see one poster seemingly post more than their fair share some time ago and I don't know what happened there, if memory serves me correctly the poster was not one who the administrators would have been likely to give special treatment too).

In regard to your other questions I'm not aboriginal so it will be interesting to hear others take on those issues. My view is that people are not at their best when they have little sense of hope and think things are stacked against them. When the cultural structures which have supported them are ripped away. That does not excuse child abuse or other abuses but it does mean that we need to be working towards helping aboriginal people have hope for the future and a sense that they will be given a fair go. We need to encourage (and facilitate where appropriate) the establishment of new cultural frameworks which work for aboriginal people within the context of modern Australia.

Clearly many things are not working well for many aboriginal australians at the moment. Some of what I'm hoping we can learn is what we can do better.

R0bert

It seems like a very individual approach is what is needed. Even in a state as small as NSW, there are a number of tribal areas, and within these there atill appears to be a number of clans (the anthropologists might correct my terminolly if I've got these the wrong way around). These groups all have differing backgrounds, with differing beliefs and cultural practices. Australian aboriginies speak a variety of languages as well. I also put it that there is a vast difference between the needs of aboriginies in an urban environment, to those in rural and remote environments. Some circumstances will require harsh punishment, and possibly removing children to a safer environment (by all means with their parents so long as they are the perpetrators), other circumstances will require education (both formal and informal) and assistance. Each group and individual within the group needs to be consulted and helped to work out a plan for them and their life (I dont see this as being particularly paternalistic, given that there is a mentor relationship in many school and work environments, its just applying the same concept in a different context). The broad brush approach that has been applied by govts so far, obviously doesnt work. Time to take a different tack.

Belly ache,

Isn't it interesting that when Australians want to be angry at the
Japanese, it would seem to be acceptable for the memory to cast back 60yrs to WWII, but when the issue is the treatment by Australia of Indigenous Peoples, we are always hearing the catch-cry of 'We can't dwell in the past , we have to move on'.

You stand there on Anzac days with your hand on your heart remembering those who died defending this country (usually in another distant county -w0rk that out?) and get all weepy with patriotism.

Lest we forgot you say.

But ask you about the wars that went down here and you know jack.

Best we forget you say.

Then you ask me how invasion is connected to those issues like I and others actually believe child and spouse abuse is connected to them.

If you can show me where any Aboriginal man has declared this please point it out to me.

Its actual origins are from Right wing commentators, yes all the one's you worship like gods.

Belly you're a very unoriginal thinker who lends from right wing popular sentiment to create your own ideas.

CG, still tracking down that stuff for ya, hang on there!

Robert, I have difficulty with your reference to aboriginal culture. As you say, they have had their culture taken away. What are you going to replace that culture with, and more importantly, who is going to define it and then who is going to teach it. As I see it, if you will all pardon the phraseology, aboriginality comes in many shades of black, and what may be acceptable to some may not be acceptable to others. You can't really give back to them a culture which has been lost (even if not altogether forgotten) and which realistically belongs in the past.

Likewise, your reference to delivering education in a culturally relevant manner causes me some concern. On the surface, it seems like a worthwhile philosophy, but carrying it out in practice will have a few hurdles, particularly finding the appropriately trained teachers.

One thing which needs to be included in the new culture, is a rejection of the hand-out mentality which has been acquired during the past forty years of welfare. This doesn't only apply to abaoriginals, but to the general community too.

In my previous post, I made reference to "the stolen generation" and it was suggested by someone that we had a lot to learn in that regard. I would agree with that comment, but perhaps we could learn how to apply the concept in a different way to everyone's advantage. The aboriginal kids in the back blocks are going to remain terribly disadvantaged if you leave them where they are. If the white kids can be sent off to boarding school to get a good education, I see no good reason why the same thing can't happen to the black kids as well. The government has done a lot of worse things with our money in years gone past.

We need to do something radical, instead of tinkering around the edges, otherwise they will be on the welfare merry-go-round for ever.

VK3AUU, you might be onto something. Instead of another stolen generation, send the kids to boarding school instead. By all means pick just a couple of schools, so that each kid doesnt feel isolated from their kind and culture. Taxpayers can foot the bill (give us something to do with the budget surplus) - I have no problem paying for a long-term worthwhile cause. Some charities might kick in and help pay for some of the extras that go on at boarding schools like excursions.

There was an interesting tv show on I think Australian Story (ABC) that showcased two retired teachers who were teaching at a school in a mining town when the mine shut and all the white workers left town. They opened up the school, and with their own hard work and enthusiasm by one of the elders, got most of the local black kids to attend, by basing lessons around horseman ship. They drove 100's kms round trips to pick kids up and get them to school, paying for the fuel themselves, taught swimming lessons in the old water supply, and funded trips to distant swimming carnivals, and even helped 1 girl to attend NEGS (boarding school in Armidale). This proves it can be done. The concern of these teachers is what will happen when they are too old to keep going (or need a break).

Rainier you may duck and dive as much as you wish, to far more than you would wish to know in your comunity I am uncle.
If I wished to I could execpt to totaly seperate invertations to become a Aboridginal by execptance.
I put in for this comunity in every way includeing time money and so very many ways.
Sir in the middle of the night my phone rang a man I KNEW TO BE RACIST was on the other end crying.
He found a male child trying to kill himself and follow up found he had been raped, by close family members for years!
thousands yes thousands of such storeys exist.
No white problem here mate, oh sorry yes I truely blame my race for it.
We waste time and money and act without guts inflicting this on children.
How? we talk in threads like this to people like you who focus on yesterdays wrongs .
NOT TODAYS CRIME.

i wonder if rainier has ever seen an aboriginal. he/she/it just can't refrain from the abhorrent practise of perpetuating blame in order to hide lack of responsibility. racism is a frequently deliberately overused misleading term to conceal the countless stuff-ups by the academic/bureaucratic likes of rainier who never ever manage to produce a single positive contribution for society. if you really want to see discrimination in all its glory then live & work in remote communities. I don't mean doing some irrelevant taxpayer funded $50,000.- three-week study but actually work & produce. I witness a lot of mindless behaviour & I can confidently state that most of it stems from interference by those outsiders who have "studied' without ever taking reality into consideration.

Belly ,
very tough events to deal with .I think posters want want offenders dealt with severely as the law allows ,but unless we insist Australian Governments tackle the underlying psychological and physical causes the social environmental perpetuating these "living conditions" will continue .

Country Gal ,
Tom Calma, the Aboriginal and Torres Straits Islander social Justice Commissioner and acting Race Discrimination Commissioner may be able to help with the information you seek .

Country Girl, perhaps the answer to your question "Aboriginal Welfare - can it work?" is simply "Aboriginal Welfare - can't work" at least, not in its present form.

It is nice to see that an aboriginal girl has won the award for Young Australian of the year. She sems to be much more than a "token black", so good on her. She is a hand's on person who is out there doing something, which is much better than sitting in some university writing theoretical papers on what might be done.

Count me out! I will not now or ever be amung those who blame disadvantage for crimes against Aboridginal women and children.
Those who do are in the way of fixing this dreadfull mess.
Also the burnt out stolen cars that litter the bush behind the dreadfull missions.
The raiding screaming children rushing in and out of country shops arms full of stolen goods mouths full of truely racist swear words.
Only this will I admit we whites must fix it! tought love, hard love , but fix it.
It can be done real jobs that MUST be held not sit down money, real accountability, real education.
If we focus on money handouts we let these people down and by our actions hold them back.
Great leaders exist in this comunity get rid of the fleas who profit from the pain, white and black.

Like many others, I am concerned about child abuse and domestic violence and if it is many times higher in Aboriginal communities than the average, then something must be done urgently. According to Tania Major the situation is getting worse.

With my limited knowledge, I think that the aboriginal people will have to come up to speed and accept white culture if they are to survive. This will mean losing more of their culture and I know that will be dificult as I am having trouble keeping up with technology myself and fight against this bloody global business.

I agree with Tania Major that education is the key and we must find ways to get the kids educated. I get upset with people like Rainier who accuses me of racism when constructive thoughts are put forward.

If I were in position to advocate change, I would look at the few successfull and functional communities and try to emulate them,

Perhaps this has already been tried.

Dear Ranier.....does it occur to you that most of those texts you cited for CG seem to be more about 'Aparthied' than anything else ?

I'd also call some of them 'racist' because it appears (emphasis, appears) that they pre assume that Aboriginals MUST be a separate people... and I strongly disagree with that.

ONE nation, ONE race, ONE culture.. emerging from a blend of all our ethno/cultural traditions.

NO ! to cultural and ethnic aparthied.
NO ! to racist separation of ethnic groups.
NO ! to the political manipulation of indigenous Aussies for power.

YES ! to assimilition, blending and absorption.
YES ! Yes to citizenship where all are equal.
YES ! to a united and harmonious Australia.
YES ! to the removal of cultural and racial barriers to a united Australia of tomorrow.

The last 2 posts say it all, rainier is noticed by his/her refusal to answer the above posts.
Still active in another thread that has nothing to do with this subject selling white mans guilt against his people.
Yet NO MAN who claims to be an honest one can ignore the fact by such actions and poor accountability, poor education black racism grows.
One day we shall know this is not a matter for debate or money its a matter for action now.
Sorry? yes I will say sorry! but will the increaseing number of Black racists ever be sorry?
Will those who bash, rape and hurt their own be made to be sorry?
How can anyone claiming to be from this comunity not cry at night at this tragic thing?
Long ago I said sorry my walk across the Sydney harbor spoke of it, I continue every day to be sorry this comunity has too many who do not care.

I think I may be in the minority when I say that I think we should teach indigenous children in a culturally relative way. We did do damage to them, we did take away their culture. I find the claims of them having 'abandoned' their culture to be horridly ridiculous. It was taken, they were forbidden to live that way and if they did they were fair game for settlers in the end. Don't be so naive.

There was an anthropologist, recently deceased and I cannot remember his name right now, who documented his time spent amongst the members of an indigenous community over a number of years, on one of Australia's islands. The marked changes in the community were disturbing for him as the elders lost their hold on the youth and the close-knit community degenerated.

The indigenous people lose more with the passing of each generation as knowledge is no longer passed on. Education *is* the key. Teach the teachers. I might myself be naive. I never had an interest in Australian history or related anthropology until I took up the disciplines at university. Maybe I'm naive to want to use my anthropology background combined with a teaching degree to at least attempt to help.

Do I feel responsible for their current situation? No.
Do I think I can make a difference, even if it's to just one child? Maybe...but that's enough for me.

People are so quick to judge them all because of their social degradation. It's the welfare office who give them too much who cause these problems? No, it's not. Sure, it helps fund the problems, but taking away their income won't solve anything. You think that there's violence and crime now? Wait until you've half starved them to death by taking away the only income they have.

I agree that the indigenous populations have a responsibility to themselves, but I think that white Australians need to stop waiting for the government to do anything other than give monetary hand-outs and think of other ways to help their fellow Australians.

singlemumof1,
I for one do not judge aboriginies for their social degradation. I am concerned for their well being. I certainly would not advocate cutting off their, or anyones, income to make them conform to some imposed regulation.

In an ideal world, it would be nice if aboriginies could retain their culture as it was before 1788, but unfortunatly the world is not ideal. If the present situation continues with alcahol and substance abuse the future will be bleak for them. I cannot see self governance at any future time.

I see no other course but for them to integrate with the general community. I see this as reality. This does not have to mean that all traditions and culture have to be discarded.

If the teaching of culture will assist to get the kids to school, good, as long as they get to school.

Right now the emphathis has to be on child and domestic violence and i would look to the successfull communities for a lead here.

Rainier, off topic
Thanks for pointing out the sub judice matter on the other thread. I did not consider it when posting. I was simply happy that there had been a turn around on the issue and I would not wish to be the cause of something going awry. I do undersatand.

singlemumof1, I think you hit the nail on the head. Neith you or I are responsible for the current plight of the native people of Australia. To say that we have no future responsibility to help is a different matter.

Rainier, I have started reading the links that you posted in the other thread, thankyou. It will take me sometime to get through it - so many other demands!! But now I have some place to start. I am though somewhat frustrated by the aggressive and militant tone of some of the website material on treaty. I stand by my saying of two wrongs dont make a right - the native peoples of Australia need to WANT to be helped for any difference to be made. To carry on with political rhetoric does no one any good. Striking out at the descendants of those that did the harm, does no one any good. Those people that should carry the blame are long dead. We can all help to make a brighter future though, for everyone. My consernation lies with those that carry a chip on their shoulder, for they seem after a time to only want to have their grievance recognised, rather than finding a solution. It is the same for the chronically unemployed (of whatever colour). Its not something that is unique to race, notwithstanding that race can be a trigger.

For my own personal reasons, Australia Day is not a particularly happy day for me, though I do appreciate that I would not be in this wonderful country had British settlement not happened.

Rainier has used another thread to add tohis insults like those above, the Anzac day slur and the wrong idea that I hate Japanese.
I am told I come from a white racist family and have never met an Aboridginal.
Also my concern for those females and children is bunkum! a cover up for my white racist leanings.
This subject is far too important ,far too dreadfull to alowe lies and biggots to devert us from the truth.
No child No woman should be subject to such as this.
Along with racists within the Aboridginal comunty whites MUST take the TOTAL blame and indeed SHAME for this dreadfull shattering thing.
Our police must police, our Courts MUST do the job we expect, our politicians Must act!
And rainier find it in your heart to stop hateing whites who do care more than you want them to.
Minority racism is evil like all racism.

spendocrat I took a look, it did not help me forget the young girl I once knew who is now in prison for stabbing her husband after one too many floggings.
It has not wiped away the numbers that say it happens far too often in these comunitys, far more often than in mine.
It has not removed the memories of late night trips to sit with a kid at the police station because mum and dad did not want to, white mans fault they are too drunk to care?
200 plus years ago ,just infront of the French Briton took this land, stole it?if it pleases you.
Is that not long enought to see an end to missions? for a whole educated school of Aboridginal lawers to have risen to fight for what justice?
Can we just insult one another and not want to stop the rape? the bashings? the young stealing just so they will go to prison for a holiday?
I find white Australia guilty of not careing enought.
But for far too many Aboridginals their crime is not careing at all.
For the bleeding hearts?
Not knowing the problem.

Well, I have to say, it would have had to have been a pretty amazing article to do all that.

It was just an article that I enjoyed that was kinda related to the topic...thats all..

Single mumof1 ,country gal and those writers that want to say "it's not MY fault for their current situation "!.
That's a BIG cop out .
The majority of Australians voted Howard in over the last 3 elections .
The Government for 10 years has had the power to do what it needs to do to help stop Indigenous Disadvantage. They have't-because we have turned a blind eye and remained silent to their neglect of Aboriginal Australians.
"Too much welfare",what a joke !.

Kartiya, I don't feel personally responsible for the plight of our indigenous people.
The government, for over 200 years, has been able to do the 'right thing' by them and haven't. Don't just blame Howard, *that's* a cop-out. Blaming people for voting him in, then we'll be blamed when someone else is voted in.

That's why I said it's time we stopped relying on the government to fix this and started doing things within our own communities to help where and when we can.

I don't feel personally responsible because 1) I wasn't born back then and 2)I am trying to do what I can, where I can to help which right now means that I'm *educating* myself about it all in the hopes that one day I might know enough and be educated enough to be a part of a solution, rather than just blaming someone else.
I'm not responsible personally, but I do want to be a part of the solution.
I'm not wasting my time blaming the governments, everyone always has negative things to say about them and their efforts. So do something about it and work on the solutions yourselves instead of bemoaning the state of the nation and its government/s.

Single Mum of1,
I'm sure your effort will eventually ,if combined with that of millions of other Australians will eventually produce results.
However , letting the Governments off the hook won't help -that will lead to more "Tampas'".
No pressure , No Accountability and No progress.

My concerns should not be seen as a hate for Aboridginals It is based only on wanting and end to the suffering.
White Australia a case could be made, may one day be made, that the failure to change anything is a planned failure.
The numbers speak for themselves rape and bashings outstrip those in the rest of Australia tell me that is racist.
Lack of education, accountability and progress asks questions.
Those questions I put to all goverments ALL partys AND NO LESS to Aboridginal leaders who condemn them being asked.
If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Kartiya Jim, I voted for my local member, who happens to belong to the current government. I dont vote on any one issue, but based on who best represents my wishes overall. I didnt support the govts selling off of Telstra either, but still didnt think that the Labor candidate would have done a better job overall.

10 years is not enough time to fix all of any problem, especially not one that is as difficult and fragmented as the plight of our aboriginies. I dont think I am being pessimistic when I say that I think the problems will be generations in being solved. I am with singlemumof1 - its up to individuals to do the best they can. If I can give hope and meaning to just 1 person, by my efforts in extending a hand of friendship, then by default I help several. The effect will not just be that person, but also those that they in turn help, and those of their children (who presumably will inherit a positive attitude from their parents). This is how everyone can influence the situation. Its not an overnight solution, but no such thing exists.

Well said Country Gal.

Not everyone is going to agree with everything that is done by the government/people they vote in. We vote in the best candidate we're presented with at the time and hope that they can move our communities and our nation one step closer to our ultimate ideal...whatever that may be.

And I also agree with your 'ripple theory' of friendship and help. We are where the solution will start, we are ourselves the solution. And yes, it will take many many generations, but why not start now and make a little progress. So I'm just one person, and Country Gal is one person...still, that's two offers of friendship and help to two people who need it and may be able to make a difference to their own families or a community.

I'm a dreamer, an idealist, but I'm also realistic. I can't make a huge difference on my own, I may never ever know if I ever helped or inspired, or encouraged anyone to make anything better for themselves or others. At least I'm trying though, at least I'm willing to stand here and say 'yes, I'm willing to do it, even if no-one else out there supports me' because I believe that we can help them. I don't believe they want to destroy themselves...all I really see is a large group of people, displaced and trying to maintain a cultural identity and heritage that was torn away, changed, and prohibited decades ago and now they're struggling to find a foothold in a world that they resent because they neither belong here, nor can they regain what they once had because they no longer have access to the knowledge that needed to be passed on.

Country gal and Single Mumof1,
While I am a great believer of the benefits of individual effort to achieve change and this can produce great results the fact remains that only the people with the power can achieve social progress in a fraction of the time, provided they are good leaders and serious about change .
If you vote for your local Howard man or woman on local issues, you are voting for the Federal policies of Howard ,whether you like them or not .
When Howard changes his policies to improve the welfare of Aboriginal,low income earners and the "Bush" I will then vote for his local member .
Until then I refuse to prop him and his divisive policies up.

Kartiya, I think the main reason I'm not relying on the government/s so much is the mere fact that *they won't do anything*.
It's not just Howard, it's all of them. Sure, they have 'plans' but those 'plans' aren't a really high priority for them. It's a 'gee, if we get around to it' type of thing to appease and appeal to the masses.
Everyone focuses on Howard because he's in office. But Keating before him and Hawk before that...there was nothing really great done to help the indigenous people with them either. As I said, it's not a high priority for them. Wars and water are more important than anything right now and unfortunately I'd rather the government focus on *those* two things right now because they're both huge problems that face all of us, rather than a concern of a few people as this tends to be (although I certainly don't agree with or like that fact).

I'd love to be able to sit back and wait for the government in power to do something. Or you know, the next one...and we'll blame them when they fail to do anything as well...and then we'll vote in another government and blame them and continue the cycle until the entire indigenous population is either destroyed or assimilated...neither of which is going to happen any time soon, if ever. They'll fight it, as they should.

Why dont we start with giving back the land that was rightly owned by the aboriginal people.
Dealing with the symptoms that dispossession has caused will get you nowhere.

Returning land won't help them. What would they do with it? Their culture has been destroyed, their customs obliterated.
I think giving them back their land is an 'easy' option. I think that they should definitely have input into how the land is used, and be able to lay claim to anthropologically/archaeologically verified sacred sites.
It's baby steps here really, to get them back to the great cultural systems that they once had, to make them strong again and able to properly defend and support themselves.
Giving them back land won't help them regain anything, other than a sense of 'winning' over a white world. Sure, in the short term that might make a few feel better, but when it comes down to it, it's not the land they miss and crave, it's their cultural heritage and what was taken from them in those terms and in terms of family history and basic human and civil rights.

How many people in this discussion are actually from Aboriginal descent and dont live in cities and major towns. How can you make a statement of what will they do with it.Surely it is their business what they do with it. To say that their culture is destroyed is very one sided their are lots of aboriginal peoples who still hold their culture strong. I feel these comments are made from people who are scared of losing something so that the wrongs can be righted. So much for reconciliation. Until Australians accept that they live in a land taken not given and gained in such horrendous fashion these problems will continue.The answers have to come from within the people themselves not from trying to deal with symptoms.
I am of Aboriginal descent and my Mother is from the stolen generation.We know all about Govt. policies and the damage they do.
We struggle to understand Australian attitudes to land rights and support Aboriginal ownership of land not just a recognition of cultural and spiritual connection.
Trying to make "blackfellas" into "whitefellas" is not the answer.

Oh please! I stand by my comment that giving back the land *won't* help them! It won't help anyone. I'm not afraid of losing anything, most of the area I live in was once Aboriginal land and I'm all for them having it back, but honestly, what could they do with it? It's urbanised now, they'll never have any real control over it again. It's a losing battle with these areas. I totally think that national park areas and such should be areas that, if they hold historically accurate details of previous Aboriginal inhabitance/usage, should be managed with a majority of indigenous input.

I also stand by my comment about a culture/s destroyed. Yes, there are some aborigines who still have a strong heritage and a strong culture, but they are not the majority. If you come from a strong line of people who have managed to maintain their cultural heritage then I would say that you, are perhaps one of the luckiest Australian's around. I hope you can keep it up. But the fact still remains that most aboriginal clans were destroyed, their cultures and ideals and beliefs outlawed, and the culture that remains today is one that is, has, and always be influenced by western society and cultural beliefs and ideals.

As far as I understood it, Aborigine's have a cyclical view of time of their ownership of the land stemmed from their belonging to it, not of their power over it and their ownership of it. Ownership is a western term...that does not negate the indigenous land rights etc. But I'm just saying, there's not a lot of land left that they'll be able to do much with. If they are given back land that is not already in use for urbanisation etc, then I'm all for it. As long as their cultural beliefs and heritage are carried on through it.