Pericles,
I can only agree with your last post. I, like many whities, am gradually losing my respect for those who despite being offered more assistance than anyone on this godforsaken lump of dirt, continue to rub in the wrongs (as perceived nowadays) of the past. I know of whole families whose forebears came from other lands & raped & pillaged but then have have very successfully integrated with the indigenous they exploited. Now, the descendants of those perpetrators are successfully claiming past victimisation by pulling the wool over the eyes of ignorant, open-mouthed, wide-eyed academic historians whose distorted views are being used to develop & implement policy for indigenous affairs.
That I believe is the crux of the problem of this never-ending futile to-ing & fro-ing.

TrashcanMan:>> I just wanted to discuss how the self-preserving / self-advancing nature of humans (in this forum being simplistically described as selfishness) makes an ideology like communism impossible.<<

TCM, just to define your discussion, I think you mean socialism, there is a difference. One point to distinguish socialism from communism is that socialism generally refers to an economic system, while communism generally refers to both an economic and a political system. In any case your discussion scope is limited given you have identified the flaw in the doctrines, they have the hand of man all over them.

individual: >> I, like many whities, am gradually losing my respect for those who despite being offered more assistance than anyone on this godforsaken lump of dirt, continue to rub in the wrongs (as perceived nowadays) of the past. <<

I feel no responsibility but I do believe positive discrimination is a must. The child mortality and life expectancy for our indigenous citizens is third world standard and that aptly examples the legitimacy of their cause in a first world country.

A few weeks back I was in Melb, and driving a hire car while trying to find a take away pizza joint. I flicked through the pre set radio stations and came across an indigenous station. I listened to the hosts outback English as he explained the meaning of the next song. The song rolled on and it was about the whites stealing their land. The host then said the usual things about the whites ruining their lives and announced the next song, it was about the stolen generation, at that point I found a pizza place. I returned to the car to while away the half hour wait and the host was hooking in again with a story about being arrested for no reason in a dusty town back of beyond, then he played the next track. A mournful ditty that encapsulated the loss of black identity in the white society.

I switched stations as the theme was apparent and as I said I did nothing negative to these people so why should I be burdened. There is no epilogue to this, I was just astounded to hear the rubbish being transmitted, and I may add the musicianship of most of the songs were "garage band" standard. Sadly our indigenous got the colour but they aint got the blues.

An interesting judgment, sonofgloin.

>>I was just astounded to hear the rubbish being transmitted... Sadly our indigenous got the colour but they aint got the blues.<<

Would you perhaps have been less inclined to describe the songs as "rubbish", had they been performed by, say, a Ma Rainey or a Bessie Smith?

>>...the host was hooking in again with a story about being arrested for no reason in a dusty town back of beyond, then... A mournful ditty that encapsulated the loss of black identity in the white society.<<

What about Nina Simone, then? Would she have made their concerns more valid?

"Picket lines
School boycotts
They try to say its a communist plot
All I want is equality
For my sister my brother my people and me

Yes you lied to me all these years
You told me to wash and clean my ears
And talk real fine just like a lady
And youd stop calling me sister sadie

Oh but this whole country is full of lies
Youre all gonna die and die like flies
I dont trust you any more"

Mississippi Goddam (1963) nina simone

All sounds sadly familiar, does it not?

By the way, if you are genuinely interested in the way in which indigenous musicians express themselves, try listening to Archie Roach, and/or Ruby Hunter.

"One dark day on Framlingham
Come and didn't give a damn
My mother cried go get their dad
He came running, fighting mad
Mother's tears were falling down
Dad shaped up and stood his ground.
He said 'You touch my kids and you fight me'
And they took us from our family.
Took us away
They took us away
Snatched from our mother's breast
Said this was for the best
Took us away.

Told us what to do and say
Told us all the white man's ways
Then they split us up again
And gave us gifts to ease the pain
Sent us off to foster homes
As we grew up we felt alone
Cause we were acting white
Yet feeling black"

Took the Children Away (1992) Archie Roach

My eight year-old son was looking through a book this morning when he exclaimed to me, "Mum, Martin Luther King went to jail". To which I responded from another room, "Yes, but he didn't do anything wrong". I then explained to him as best I could in a brief time the sorts of freedoms Martin Luther King had been fighting for - and although my son is young he understood the moral imperatives that were in play. His sense of moral justice has not yet been tainted...I hope it never is.

I recently watched the film, "Invictus,"
on DVD - starring Morgan Freeman as Nelson
Mandela. And I'm now reading the book,
"Mandela : The Authorised Portrait."

I can highly recommend it to anyone who
can use a bit of inspiration in their lives.

If all of us could live up to just one fraction of
the standards this man has set for himself, then
the world would be a far, far better place.