When you go to cast your vote, please remember some very important facts.
Labor, in less than three years has almost sent this country broke!

Also remember, madam PM was number 2 on the pecking list while all those billions were being wasted and, at no time did she even give the slightest hint that Krud was on the wrong track. In fact, she praised him and defended his actions time and time again.

Finally, they re-introduced the unfair dismisal laws that crippled small business last time they were in power, yet, they sacked their leader without any regard to these laws what so ever.

In fact, if Krud were to lodge a claim, I doubt there would be a lawyer anywhere who would support the government on in this case.

Why have laws if you don't follow them yourself.

So, ask yourself, not whether we can afford to vote for an alternative, but whehter we can risk another term of labor given the mess they have created in less than three years.

Remeber, the billions we had when they came to power are gone, but the billions in debt we have been burdoned with will be there for all to repay. Except of cause those who caused the problems, as they are still rich and totally unacountable for thier waste.

rehctub, I speak to professionals and the plebs that work for them in every state of Australia, every day. We discuss the driving forces that control disposable income and consumer confidence in their states sales market. What is conveyed to me is the amount of disposable income per household of that state is not entirely governed by interest rates, total state government charges and levies have a major effect.

For example N.S.W. is at the bottom of the list when comparing each state’s economic growth, the bureau of stats use 8 KPI's to evaluate this and N.S.W. is last in 7 of 8. Business people realise this, investors realise this and the reason is evident, the incompetent state government. The following is a list of the 2010/2011 state budget grab. From 1/7/2010 the following fees and charges apply to NSW residents:

New transfer charge for properties valued $500,000
New $500 million motor tax
Increased gas charges of 13%
Increased energy charges of 13%
Increased water charges of 9%
Increased ambulance call-out fee and per kilometer charge
Increased taxi operating levy 3% (as of 12 July 2010)
Increased tolls for the Lane Cove Tunnel, Military Road E-Ramp, Eastern Distributor, Westlink M7
New CTP Greenslips charge
Increased Parking Space Levy from $2000 to $2,400 per year for lower north shore; $710 to $720 per year for St Leonards, Chatswood, Parramatta and Bondi Junction.
Even the payroll tax cut announced in the Budget is treading water, as NSW continues to have the highest rate at 5.5% – far higher than Victoria and Queensland. I won't give you the stats on the increase in N.S.W. taxes under Labor over the past 12 years, as it makes me ill to review them.

Why are we paying more to the state government every year and seeing less for it. Last year’s mill stone was a half a billion and growing cost for the Roselle light rail. Half a billion dollars spent up till now and not a sod of dirt turned and project abandoned.

TBC

rehctub why I bore you with all this N.S.W. stuff is to qualify the fact that there are a large portion of fools amongst us who will vote along party lines no matter how poor their performance, we should have dumped these guys two terms ago, but we didn't. My point is that the simple and feeble minded amongst us who vote for reasons other than performance will always do so. I have found Labor supporters who acknowledge the incompetence but are going to vote for them again because they follow that team.

There is a thread about compulsory voting on OLO at present. These simpletons I describe are a cogent reason for non compulsory voting. They would not bother going to vote if they did not have to. I fear these fools so I am not sure the electorate will boot the Labor Feds in August. I believe this will be one of the most "crucial" election in our history in regard to our prosperity and national identity.

......................WHO are you calling a simpleton Soggers??

sonofgloin,
I know what you mean. I have spent a lot of time talking with people about the the way things are going and most agree that it's not at all good. However, the moment I say that they can always change it by not voting Labor they go on the defensive somewhat shocking. Is a moron someone who accepts the crap that's being dished out or is a moron someone who does something to stop crap being dished out. What am I missing ?

Remember this:

"Australians know very little about what an
Abbott government would do, apart from
providing a ratbag of financial incentives
to reduce carbon emissions, and imposing
an industrial-relations regime eerily
reminiscent of the Howard government's
deeply unpopular WorkChoices, though
unsurprisingly it won't have the name.
The obligation to develop and proclaim
a positive program falls more strongly
therefore on the Coalition, which under Tony
Abbott has tended to oppose reflexively
whatever the government proposes without
feeling constrained to offer better alternatives..."

(The Age, Saturday, July 17, 2010, "Insight," p. 8.)

Foxy,
I appreciate your anxiety with what's to come. We're all concerned. What really worries me is that we have plenty of evidence of mismanagement, nepotism, incompetence & literally no hope of ever getting back on track again under Labor. Julia Gillard speaks of getting into the black again in three years. Why are we in the red in the first place ? Kevin 07 & Julia Gillard inherited the best surplus of any australian government & yet it only lasted a fleeting moment. Every Labor PM candidate has been pushing education. Education for what ? For jobs that will never be there ? All this ideological raving on about education is all nonsense when most of the important tasks to keep the country going are blue collar jobs. Education under Labor has always been indoctrination not a learning curve. I tell you what the problem with today's Labor is, it's an academic yuppy club with no pragmatism whatsoever. Hence the divided nation that Australia is now. The blue collar brigade is being fleeced to no end whereas the academic background bureaucrat hangers on divvy the proceeds among the no effort crowd. It's not a fair system at all. The sooner we get some equality i.e. reward for effort back again, well.....you've got several weeks to think of the consequences of your tick on the ballot paper.

sonofgloin,
I was leaving states out of it for now, but now you mentioned it, we have a doosy of a premier in Anna Bligh who, as it happens was 2nd in charge to back flip Beaty.

QLD in the past decade was the recipient of billions of dollars from both the propery and mining booms, YET WE ARE BROKE!

Projects like the 'Goog will bridge, lang park, Brisbane river bicintenial walkway and of cause, Traveston Dam.

All have provided the state with massive debts, yet, had these fools been in the private sector, chances are they would not be eligible for parrol yet.

Modern polotics seems to be a way for elected leaders to go about their wastefull ways with no accountabillity what so ever.

Just look at the mess Krud left behind, yet, he's on $600 grand a year for life +++.

Meanwhile, back in the 'real world' we have people on the verge of retirement, having worked all their lives, educated their kids, paid thier taxes, having to now prolong thier plans simply so they can afford the rising costs of almost everything.

All of a sudden, retirement for many is all but just a prolonged dream.

Labor stinks at every level.

Look at this thread, see the excuses already for a lost election yet to come.
See the slur that idiots elect Labor.
Understand the lost nature of some here.
The failure to understand politics.
Failure to self assess,to ask are my views shared by most?
And KNOW it is the only answer they have, the only way they can take our eyes from the Liberals true internal war,,, tossing of a leader over board,, the history of Abbott's failures his inability to stay out of trouble.
NSW is about to see Labor voters remove a LABOR government, NO defense offered they must be thrashed so my party can Begin to rebuild, I want the high pressure hose job to flush the filth out the door,
But this thread is like a rum and Bonox with a couple of crumpets on a cold winters night warm comfortable and nice to see only the conservative homing pidgions flock to it, good fun rechtub.
But not one swinger will change because of it

Foxy:>>Remember this:"Australians know very little about what an
Abbott government would do<<

Foxy the issue is we have seen what Kevs Labor govt has done. Abbott is a lightweight but so was Howard, remember the tag "little Johnny Howard" but he formed a govt that paid back $90 billion debt and left $20 billion for Kev. I judge results not personality and I will be voting for another "team" to see if they can revisit the frugal management of our fiscal future. The whole cabinet failed not just Kev.

I believe Abbott will distance himself from work choices because it was the prime reason for dumping on the Libs last election, many blue collar liberal supporters told me they were going to walk because of it, it freaked them out and identified the Liberal govt as a party for business rather than the people.

Ginx:>>WHO are you calling a simpleton Soggers??

Ginxy, if a child burns their hand by willfully placing it in a fire, they are ignorant. If they stick their hand in it again by their own volition, they are simpletons.....does that help.

Ginxy, I thought you were banned from posting, did OLO change it's mind?

SOG.. glad to know you have that kind of background.. dumb question but..'what do you do?'?

FOXY...

and imposing
an industrial-relations regime eerily
reminiscent of the Howard government's
deeply unpopular WorkChoices,

Now..that, dear foxy is one of the reasons I suspect that SOG calls some people 'simpletons'....

I don't know how brilliant one needs to be to see through the left wing smoke screen about 'workchoices' but they were not at all a bad thing, except to those who saw in them an opportunity to exploit them as an 'anti howard' focal point.

I still remember with vividness, standing on the steps of flinders st station, with 25,000 unionists all screaming and raging against 'HOWARD-WORKCHOICES' when they had not the slightest bit to do with the 1000s (in the previous week 1000 had lost their jobs at a car parts supplier) losing their jobs.

I managed to get myself attacked by a communist woman... feisty little biddy I must say.. but my message was irrefutable. "BLAME CHINA...tax slavery at customs" and no one even tried to argue against it.. except for the pint sized thrashing machine :)

Howards 'work choices' were not evil, damaging or harmful.
Even as I speak, I look with sadness at the faces of those who I know will soon be made redundant as the swing to chinese made parts reaches it's 'all that we can outsource' level.

People can whine about Howard as if 'workchoices' were the antichrist,
but in doing so, the temptation to call them 'simpletons and fools' looms high in one's mind.

Belly:>> Look at this thread, see the excuses already for a lost election yet to come.See the slur that idiots elect Labor.Understand the lost nature of some here.The failure to understand politics.<<

In reading your posts I discern that you are a "true believer", not a political fashion devotee as are the greens and chardonnay socialists. I do not know how you resurrect N.S.W. Labor, but getting rid of the right and their cronies will go a long way.

Belly, I will remind you of what Ben Chifleys Labor govt achieved;

* In 1942 the Commonwealth Government introduced uniform income tax (making grants to states to replace their taxes on income).
* Introduced a national welfare scheme and unemployment and sickness benefits in 1944.
* In 1945 he became Prime Minister.
* After World War II the Commonwealth Government joined the United Nations.
* It announced its objective of raising the population to 20 million.
* The War Service Land Settlement Act introduced the Soldier Settlement Scheme.
* The Education Act 1945 set up a Universities Commission for expansion of university education.
* The Hospital Benefits Act 1945 provided grants to States to subsidise public hospitals.
* The first Holden car was 'launched' by Chifley in 1948.
* The Nationality and Citizenship Act 1948 was passed.
* The Snowy Mountains Authority was commenced in 1949.
* The National Health Service Acts of 1948 and 1949.
* Chifley broke the national coal strike by sending in the army to work open cuts mines in 1949.

He was a humble man who never forgot he had been a train driver before he was a politician. Belly I do not know if we have this caliber of man and government in 2010, on either side. I suffer with you comrade.

SOG.. glad to know you have that kind of background.. dumb question but..'what do you do?'?

Al, all I can say is that I am a national guy for large concern, sadly I am still working, but as my bride says when I whinge, "you could be laying bricks".

Anyone who doubts the effect of Work Choices on low income workers is at best blind and at worst indifferent or in the "I'm alright Jack camp". It seems we are quite happy to let a whole range of people enjoy a lesser quality of life and turn a blind eye to excesses in the corporate camp.

Please remember the term 'non-core promise' and 'never-ever a GST' when thinking about the Opposition. Rembemer Work Choices was not even presented to the electorate prior to election and with balance of power in the Senate, it left the citizens with little voice on labour policies.

I for one am willing to give the ALP another chance (via preferences) over the Coalition. A Party that has made mistakes in regard to waste and lack of planning/oversight is less likely to go down that road again in the short term. Personally there is not much to differentiate them on broader economic policy but there is a lot more to lose with a Coalition led Government.

Holey moley! rehctub …now you’ve gone and dun it.
Belly ain’t gonna be happy when he sees this thread.

"Ginxy, I thought you were banned from posting, did OLO change it's mind?"
Posted by sonofgloin, Sunday, 18 July 2010 4:28:08 PM

I see you saw my message left upstairs!

The truthful answer is 'buggered if I know'.

As for your analogy, excellent.

"Hand in fire one time make big pain- hand in fire two time mean no skin all bone. Him all bone no skin one hand, unable vote,-so 'One Hand Boney' force use other hand put tick 'bove line. This am no worries, will make sure vote goes to needy. Everyone happy 'cept One Hand Boney who screamin wid pain".

Am understand-is help of great

Dear AGIR,

I'm going to sound like a broken
record, however, I shall repeat to you
what I've stated before, and that is:
Consistency requires you to be as ignorant
today as you were when you first started
posting on this Forum. And, I understand that
you are, if nothing else, - consistent!

Just look at the mess Krud left behind, yet, he's on $600 grand a year for life +++.
rehctub,
.. times say, 30 more years that's roughly $18 mill. Multiply that a few times for Hawke, Keating & Howard & you get not a small amount at all. Then there's what we paid for the past 30 years fo Gough & Mal. Then there are quite a number of pollies who are on a $100,000 pension a year plus. No wonder they're worried about only one term in Government. That mightn't be enough time to ensure the safety of the nest egg.
I had to give up my defined Super when I was shifted into local Government & they talk about moving forward ? headlong into disaster more likely ! More education for a career for people on CDEP ? Wonderful stuff, yeah !

Congratulations, Rehctub, I enjoyed reading your comments.

We are facing a government that is contemptuous of individuals, especially those among us who take responsibility for their own lives.

An ever encroaching nanny-state, operating under the assumption as if they have a moral right to dictate what we must and must-not do in our lives.

Although the Liberals also hold similar attitudes, it is a matter of degree, and never been as bad before. The Liberals, for example, at least introduced some compromise called WorkChoices, to "allow" people, under certain circumastances, to decide on their own work-arrangements, but who are they to deny individual rights in the first place?

Two consenting adults have (so far, who knows what's coming next) the right to engage in an intimate relationship, and agree between them on its terms - but according to the government, they may not do the same when it comes to a working-relationship. What on earth gives the government a right to interfere?

Finally, don't forget the botched insulation scheme. Not just the operative failure, the fires, etc., but the whole concept in the first place of giving selective gifts to the less-responsible who had no roof-insulation. Two people brought home the same pay - the first used the money to buy drinks, while the second used it to insulate their roof in order to reduce their electricity-bill in the long term. According to government policy, the first got his drinks AND a reduced electricity bill, while the second got only a reduced electricity-bill, but no drinks. That is their idea of fairness! That is their idea of punishing people who care for themselves!

As far as I am concerned, we could go on and on about when labor did this and liberals did that until the cows come home.

No one is ever going to be fully happy with everything that politicians decide in Canberra.

We need to decide which party to vote for by checking out their policies for this coming election. That is all we really have to go on.

I will also consider voting for the leader/party that is least affected by any religious persuasion.
I guess that means Julia Gillard for now.

"I will also consider voting for the leader/party that is least affected by any religious persuasion."

Fair dinkum, but isn't socialism a religious persuation?

Well.....given the choices, this is going to be a difficult one. We do however have sufficient knowledge of past behavioural results, verbal and media statements and Parliamentary voting records to make a relatively informed decision.

PM Julia Gillard.
She has been Kevin Rudd’s deputy all along and so has been an integral participant in all of Rudd’s so called failed policies for which he was so ruthlessly relieved of duty. She can’t be quarantined from those failures and must shoulder her fair share and not imply that it was all Rudd.

She tends to use far too many words instead of being as succinct as possible and because of that I get the feeling of “plasticity”, of disingenuousness, of rehearsal which may be good or may be bad.

But most importantly of all, a full disclosure of what went on behind those closed doors immediately preceding Rudd’s removal, for that alone will ascertain her suitability for the high office of the Prime Minister of Australia.

D-PM Wayne Swan.
Not much to say here except he lacks any capacity to inspire anyone let alone a nation. He’s not leadership material but in all who can forget that he back stabbed his mate?

Alt-PM Tony Abbott.
Unfortunately Abbott is a vassal of the Vatican. When he was in gov’t as Health Minister for Howard, he demonstrated without qualms his inability to make decisions independent of his religion; he will always follow Vatican law and policy which puts him in conflict with the secularism of the Australian Constitution.

Would the Pope have a de-facto say in this country’s affairs via Abbott? Nothing to look forward to in that, given the organisations he actively participated in during WW2 and his demonstrated history of covering up for paedophile Priests by transferring them to other dioceses where they again re-established their psychosexual disorder on new fresh children with impunity

Continued,

Alt-DPM-Julia Bishop.
She’s been there as Deputy Op Leader for three different leaders, how come she’s never nominated for the top job herself? She’s the “tea lady” that’s why, put there simply to mollify female Liberal voters. She’s of no matter, of no influence and is there to ensure adequate supplies of lamingtons and tea at meetings, but she does however have a big mouth.

When Australia’s intelligence agencies Asis and Asio concluded from their investigations that Israel did indeed forge Australian Passports that were then used in an Israeli Gov’t sanctioned assassination in Dubai, the Australian Gov’t in reaction to the Israeli transgression expelled the head of Israel’s Mossad operations in Australia. A thoroughly appropriate action.

In disagreement with the Gov’t’s actions, Julie Bishop requested a briefing on the matter from Asis and Asio. Being an MP she had Top Secret clearance and so the agencies complied. Armed with Top Secret information, classified as such in the interest of national security, she then conducted media interviews divulging to the world that Australia was in no position to lecture the poor Israeli’s because Australia itself regularly forged the passports of other countries to be used as cover for Australia’s own agents.

In her actions she betrayed her own country as it doesn’t matter what flavour ALP or Lib the Gov’t is, it is the democratically elected Gov’t of Australia and in broadcasting the information given to her in trust she broke her oath of loyalty to the Queen and Australian People and in one fowl swoop trashed countless future operations. You’d almost swear that she has been tutored by the wise Sarah Palin. As to why her security clearance is still intact is baffling, I’ve known others who’ve had it removed for far lesser breaches

Early morning and another crumpet ,just the Bonox its an RDO but the phone may ring.
Loved it!
Boazy gear stuff rubbish but its good rubbish.
sonofa some thing, Goodonya! see the polls, more hands in the fire for you.
What a shame! some know so very much more than most but can not convince us to vote as they wish.
Not that my burnt fingers need the pain but my fun mussel does Labor with an increased majority Abbott to be replaced maybe even before the election, he finds trouble anytime.
Back to the Bonox oh PS, I proudly am from NSW ALP right the faction that will rebuild.

Work choices, it just keeps raring its head.

Isn't it a twisted world, when we can negotiate almost everything we do, accept for what government controls.

Rates & charges, tolls, rego, taxes and of cause, wages.

One can buy in bulk and normally negotiate a better deal. With workers, buying in bulk results in pay roll tax, the untimate employment deterent.

The non funny part of all this is that due to our inabbillity to negotiate wages, we are comming ever closer to the dredded country of 'out sourcing'. Soon, there will be fewer jobs, simply because we are no longer able to negotiate a deal between a boss and a worker, even though both are keen for it.

Unfair dismisal laws are another joke as we have just seen the highest man in the country be sacked with so much as a hint of a written warning.

So these laws, like many, apply to business owners who are the creators of jobs, but not for much longer I suspect.

Good luck moving forward when there is little room for negotiation between two adults trying to balance work and life.

If labor stays, jobs go. It's really that simple.

Belly I have to re think the "true believer" status I assigned to you. Given that you are from N.S.W. right and dominated by the likes Eddie Obeid and Joe Tripodi, there is no Ben Chifley in any of you self serving Labor N.S.W. right acolytes.

When you cast your vote, please remember….

You don’t have to vote for anyone. You are not obligated to vote for the slightly lesser of two evils, if you feel that no party deserves your vote.

If you vote for a minor candidate, your vote will almost definitely end up counting for one of the two big parties, even if you put them last and second last and specifically want to NOT vote for either!

Westralis,

"Would the Pope have a de-facto say in this country’s affairs via Abbott?"

You must be joking - this poor pope is not even allowed to keep his beloved cat, Chico!

Between being under control of the active council of trade-unions and the impotent council of cardinals, I believe that Abbott is the lesser evil.

I usually do not get involved in discussions about how I intend to vote as I am cynical about them all.

But on this occassion, I see the present mob as being the most incompedent government ever, so I will vote against them.

The waste and incompedence shown on any one of a number of issues should be enough to be rid of them. I cannot think of one matter in which they could claim a good outcome.

I think people need to stop attempting to predict which government will be better based on their proposed policies.

Lets face it, any promise from a politician is worthless. Also, both parties are pretty similar really.

My new policy, is to always vote against any government who hasn't impressed me, regardless of the merits of the alternative.

It's the only way I see that either party will learn from their mistakes.

If NSW Labor has taught us anything is that when you start to see a party killing it's leader and being totally incompetent in implementing whatever policies it makes, be pro-active when 'moving forward' to the opposition.

Even if the opposition is as bad, or worse, you can vote them out next election too. Keep training both parties. At least you wont have the insult to injury from knowing you had a chance to teach the current government a lessen but gave them a second chance.

Note: Greens don't even rate a mention. If anyone saw their behaviour with the ETS, and Richo's accurate analysis on Q&A the other night (with Sarah Hanson-Young's illogical rantings), nothing more needs to be said. Alsthough, I agree with their political donations policy, even if it is motivated by the fact they don't have people wanting to donate to them.

I also think they should abolish voting above the line.

The lesser of two evils is still evil.

Belly is the rebuilding before or after the fumigation.

Candidates included Tripodi's sister-in-law, D'Amore, Gadiel and Paluzzano. In Parliament were Tripodi's former fiance, Reba Meagher.

Orkopoulos was found guilty of supplying prohibited drugs, indecent assault with a male under 18, possessing child pornography.

Campbell's resignation came after proof he used a taxpayer-funded government car to visit gay sex clubs. His time as Police Minister is being reviewed.

While giving evidence in the assassination John Newman MP, Meagher says Dela Bosca offered her the seat just hours before Newman was assassinated, provided she didn't run for one coveted by his wife.

Restaurant and nightclub staff claimed Della Bosca and Neal abused and threatened them.

Jail time is on the cards for disgraced Labor MP Karyn Paluzzano.

ICAC revealed most people named in the bribery sting that netted at least $500,000 from some of the developers were either ALP members, friends of state Labor MPs and state cabinet ministers.

In one glaring example of corruption, the NSW Labor Party received $213,000 from the ethanol company Manildra, at the same time as the Government mandated that 2 per cent of the petrol sold in NSW must contain ethanol.

Property developers pumped more than $2 million into Labor Party
coffers before the state election in March. Frank Sartor, has been
criticised for changing planning rules to the benefit of developers following the election.

The New South Wales corruption watchdog has been asked to examine the travel expenses claimed by former state government minister Ian Macdonald.

Obeid found himself in business with Paul Keating's controversial piggery partner. He also joined with Rene Rivkin to buy the Offset Alpine printing press. They reaped a small fortune when the "overinsured" printing premises was destroyed by fire.
Quite separately, Obeid has had bad luck with fires - two of his business premises and two houses have gone up in flames.

Yes Belly a fine group, the N.S.W. right. Rebuild......with what?

Houellebecq:>> Even if the opposition is as bad, or worse, you can vote them out next election too. Keep training both parties. At least you wont have the insult to injury from knowing you had a chance to teach the current government a lessen but gave them a second chance.<<

H, there is common sense, and there is the ability to identify it, you have that ability, well said.

Soggy thanks, but the two you highlight are the destroyers of my faction and my party.
As a fair well gift I go on record offering to take them on a harbor bridge walk, along with those who did not have the guts to do it for us.
The days of power in the hands of that type if not over should be, my ALP looks smells and is like a two week old road kill in summer.
But not this federal mob sweet victory is assured mostly because the opponent is far worse.
I say again rechtub thanks truly your thread, stands beside me, about 67 posts do, waiting to bring belly laughs on election night.
I had a lot last time but expect about 400 this time, a party fun maker that will include RABBOTTS speech's.

The trouble is we do know what the Coalition stands for in relation to industrial relations policy. It comes down to whether you believe Mr Abbott will stand firm on his promise, but for me the two words promise and politician don't often sit well together. While this is true of both the majors I cannot see a slide back to a Work Choices like model as a good thing for Australia. We also know they are big on Growth despite the current rhetoric, being far too influenced by the NSW Right on matters of economics.

With the GFC past, I cannot see any more spending debacles on the horizon, nor would I think the ALP would revisit bad policy.

Houlley
Richo's explanation of the Greens and the ETS is incorrect but I can see it would be an easy furphy to repeat over and over often enough until the general populace absorbed it.

The Greens could not possibly support an ETS that was highly flawed and was light on in regard to actually achieving the goal of reducing pollution from fossil fuels.

It is all very well and even tempting to go down the 'teach them a lesson' route, but this is a bit like cutting your nose to spite your face.

With the GFC past, I cannot see any more spending debacles on the horizon, nor would I think the ALP would revisit bad policy.

Pelican, I, along with many Austrlians hope you are right about that claim, however, I fear you are not.

It's fine to go off to work and get paid, whether you achieve your targets, or not, as many in todays workforce seem to do, and gloat about.

From a businessmans prospective, I see some very worrying signs.

I am sure we all agree that our destiny lies with those from our geater region, not just our own population and, with the costs associated with doing business getting somewhat out of control, including wages,fees, services and consumables, compared to our competitors, one has to wonder just how we are going to remain competetive, in a market that is becomming ultra competetive.

My fear is that as long as we continue calling on small to medium businesses to coff up more and more, while at most times cutting thier margins, the end result will not be pretty.

The recent pay rise is a prime example. Unions say staff have done it tough so need to be rewarded, meanwhile many owners have sold assetts to reduce debts, to reduce costs, to remain in business, but for what!

I am affraid it's all heading south, and fast!

If you don't believe me, simply ask just about anyone how safe they think thier job is and compare thier answer to three years ago.

I tend to agree with a previous poster. This gov is a joke, so, give another a go and vote them out after three years as well if they do no better.

After all, nobody, and I mean NOBODY could do any worse than what these incompitent fools have done! Could they?

rehctub:.. QLD in the past decade was the recipient of billions of dollars from both the propery and mining booms, YET WE ARE BROKE!<<

Sorry I missed your post earlier. The only positive thing I can say is that at least now I know N.S.W. is not alone in our pathetic governance, but we are still last in economic growth, that’s something I suppose. When is your next state election and will Labor get the boot? Ours is in March and they will.

rehctub the latest pay rise was for low income workers who can barely keep up with rising costs or hope to become home owners.

You seem to be concerned about increases for low wage earners but happy with the high wages of stock brokers and mining workers having used them as great examples of how Work Choices means higher wages for employees.

I do agree with you that small business needs less red tape but the worst example of it was when business was made responsible for collecting government tax in the form of GST - something that was introduced by a Liberal Government despite promises to the contrary.

Labor seems to be more resolved to improving infrastructure including a VFT linking major cities to regional areas and ports, the Libs have not made any such policy statements. No party has yet given a population target as part of the sustainable action plan or defined what that means.

I am not arguing that the ALP is perfect, I don't vote for either of the majors but obviously preferences make a difference. I do believe strongly that the ALP's current problems were down to Rudd's leadership style and disregard for Cabinet consultation - this problem has been removed whatever one might think about the method. I don't have a problem with it but I understand some might - but more is being made out of it for election mileage than based in fact.

Well Rechtub it depends upon how one is employed really in relation to a life led under Laboristics!

Labor's one draw card, and during previous terms, has been public service cuts and raising concepts, along the communistic lines, that may well again cost taxpayers wasted billions: I recall a great deal of wasted time money and effort spent on just one concept: the proposed identification card or some such thing?

By memory, during the last occasion Labor were elected under Keating, trade was sent down the gurgler, there were a great deal of enforced retirements, most contractors laid off for up to a year or more, a reduction in the lower level positions within the public service, the outcries in various states from public servants losing their jobs with no union. Not to be compared to a certified agreement. Communistic concepts suggested [wasnt there a rumour about an identification card or some such thing]bandied about?

This is Labor's pattern under a more ruthless leader: Contractors booted first, latest employed ousted second, long term loyal dedicated stressed out 53 years + [almost retirement age] informed to retire earlier, projects and sections joined [with new technology and the fast paced environments, stay tuned to hear of stress levels impacting upon public servants within your families or friends having breakdowns, the escalation of illnesses, more family breakdowns].

Initially, private enterprise jobs rose for the first 6 months, then took a dive; Private Enterprise IT Contractors hit hard. Public servants forced to seek private enterprise work over the next two year period; impacting upon the rest of Australians. When thousands of employees are affected with unemployment; whether it be the private or public service sectors; the Australian economy on the whole is greatly affected.

Lastly, the lower levels of the public service, who just took out their newly acquired mortgages under the Labor government's assisted 'First Home Loan Grant' are now faced with a bleak future, informing Mum Dad relatives and friends that they are going under, as a result of losing their new public service job.

Severe depression, suicide, murders rise.

I have worked in both private enterprise and the public service. Either party winning will not greatly impact upon my lifestyle. Over 20 years both parties admittedly have caused irreparable damage, particularly in relation to Australia's trade. Yet, with the Liberal Party, I can state factually, that Australia's deficit has been overturned after Labor's damage on each occasion, as a result of Labor's radical ill thought out concepts implemented hurriedly, high flying leaders who have spent millions on projects they have never followed through and not money spent 'wisely' on the three major essentials, Health, Crime and Education; some education concepts implemented excellent. Others room for improvement.

I have witnessed the dire outcomes of what radical Labor leaders [high flyers] have caused to families struggling financially.

I believe Julia will win the election given a few factors; the first being that she may well have called an early election while people are in a surprised frame of mind; a first female PM, the strategies used to ensure her foothold/emotional [siezing the right opportunity], before people are able to reflect further upon Labor's mistakes, and before people are able to have sufficient time to view her mistakes.

Another point is that if she were confident in her abilities and concepts to be accepted widely by Australians, why call an early election as opposed to playing it fair for Australians, introducing a few key concepts, implement those, and allow people to vote down the track, when not in such a hurried undecided state, given the past few weeks casting the previous Prime Minister aside.

Equivalent to emotional blackmail? Deceitfulness? Leading Australians astray? What is the term I am seeking

It's funny, we are unique - I echo your sentiment that whoever wins will not impact greatly on my lifestyle. I have a 'safe' job in a city where I will be unlikely ever to afford property. Neither government is likely to threaten my employment, and neither government is likely to improve my chances of property ownership.

Groceries continue to grow less and less affordable (albeit at a slow rate) - I have serious doubts that either government will change that. I earn too high an income to receive any welfare, and am unlikely to be a pensioner any time soon, so neither government's social justice policies will impact greatly on me. Besides, I fork out the money to insure my income, so if I did suffer some misfortune I would still have a buffer before I was forced to rely on the state for my upkeep.

Our climate may change or it may not. Our government (on either side) will likely dither around for some time before taking any action or deciding not to take any action - long enough to be replaced and let their successors make the decision.

The reality is that we go from one government to the next and my life doesn't change. I would love to have empathise with people who do suffer from government policy, but the reality is that I am too sheltered in my cosy little world to fully appreciate what they go through. The sad (or happy) reality is that there are many, many people in our country who are in the same boat. In my short life, no government has done anything tangible for or against me.

I'm sure there are many passionately political people on this forum who will criticise me for this, but I think it's only fair that, before I engage in any real debate, I lay out the bare bones of my political apathy.

Still, true, getting a kick out of this thread.
Still wondering at the tall tales, how can these interest rates so much lower the Howard's are Labor sin?
Work choices rechtub dislikes unions/workers it is so clear in every post.
Do most understand some truly hard up low income workers still struggle under 5 year agreement forced on them under work choices, no pay rise for 5 years no over time, some early ones took public holidays and even sick leave.
Fair go Aussie means nothing to some.
Here the hate of Labor is on display, the fallacy that Abbott can be trusted ,the sheer silliness of manufacturing evidence that does not exist.
Have no doubt in reliance on spin, hate, lies in blindness to the real state of federal conservative politics we see the real joke.
rechtub and his like stand on the bank of a near dry farm dam, big game gear in hand they look to take home a big fish.
So far the best is a pair of old warn out boots containing the total conservative policy list MUD.

How can low interest rates be sin ? :) come come Belly old mate...surely you of all people know by now that it doesn't matter howwww good things are under the incumbant party..it's all 'SIN' to the opposition :)

pelican,

In case you hadn't noticed, Labor's IR policy is not all that different to the coalition. Isn't there also a guy facing a gaol term for having a union meeting at lunch time? Come on.

If I didn't know better I would think you were a Labor spin master with your work choices fear campaign here. I didn't think anyone actually believed that stuff. Are you Moving Forward pelican?

The effect of Work Choices really saved a lot of jobs in the financial crisis. Lots of people just had their hours reduced for a year or so rather than more people being sacked. Rusted on Labor and union people would never admit it though.

The way I see it, the coalition is there to balance the books and be mean bastards for 3 terms, then Labor will come in and help people who deserve a break for a term or two until we run out of money, then the coalition will come back again. It's the cycle of Australia. Both of them are needed, but we can level out the stupidity by making it 1-1. It means no party will ever suffer from the arrogance of the Howard government or NSW Labor.

BTW: What was wrong with the Greens at least getting an emissions trading infrastructure in place and then trying to get the targets and subsidies changed later. Pragmatic baby steps, not idealistic absolutism as Richo said. Right now they have sweet FA. He brought up other examples in the past where they'd done the same thing but I cant remember them.

PS: I've always put Liberals last in every election, and I think Abbot is a buffoon, but I just may put them second last this year :-) I would have voted for them if Turnbull was leader. I want someone who's achieved something in the real world leading both these mobs of career baby kissers.

How much dog whistling must Julia do for you to believe she's not really like that but just doing it for political expedience? Not that that is any justification anyway. I'm just wondering how lefties can think the Rodent is Racist, but Julia is just walking both sides of the street.

It might actually be worth expanding on this a little, Boaz.

>>How can low interest rates be sin ?<<

Ask the Japanese, who have suffered low interest rates for some considerable time now. It hasn't actually done much good for their standard of living, their unemployment rate, or their broader economy.

Or, closer to home, ask a pensioner who has saved all their life, and now wants to live on the interest rather than spend their capital..

Belly,

"Do most understand some truly hard up low income workers still struggle under 5 year agreement forced on them under work choices"

This is shocking! If indeed it could occur that an agreement was forced on anyone, then it is an atrocity, it is slavery, and surely the government has a duty to release those poor workers. Can you actually prove that the agreement was forced upon them? I honestly thought that an "agreement" is something that people actually agree on, of their own free will.

In any case, there is a vast difference between releasing miserable people from unfair contracts and preventing happy people to willfully enter whatever agreements they choose.

A government that supports misery and condemns happiness, will achieve just that: more misery and less happiness.

Let me sketch a potential agreement, freely drawn between Mr. Employer and Mr. Worker, legal under WorkChoices, but made illegal under Rudd:

Worker agrees to perform a certain work for Employer 3 hours a day, 7 days a week, every other week, rain or shine, dead or alive, in sickness or in health, be it an ordinary or a hol(y)i day. Employer will pay Worker $100/hour (less the compulsory superannuation, if the government so demands). Any failure to work is a basis for terminating this agreement, and unless a 2-month notice is given, Worker must compensate Employer $10000 as the cost of finding and training someone else to do the job.

Now Mr. Worker is not exactly poor, he gets in hand a respectable $49686/year (plus superannuation) for working on average only 45.5 hours/month, yet it is technically below the $100000 exemption limit.

What right has a government, or anyone else for that matter, to deny humans their freedoms in such a way?

Can I prove it? you bet I can surely you already know it is true.
Howard did not have a fairness test until the middle of his last term the workchoices one.
Agreements non union went as long as 5 years.
If you agree it is human nature to serve your self first you will have no doubt some bosses did just that.
Understand it is my view bad bosses are the minority but if just 1% are then that is a lot.
23 workers under paid 3 years ago,called one at a time in to bosses office sign this or not job.
They did.
He sent it to get the fairness test, it failed HOWARD'S test.
He told his workers it passed they lost [work extreme shifts and overtime] $200 plus a week making it a low income job.
Case after case is on file in the old your rights at work campaign page of the 5 years lost overtime and sick pay public holidays and family leave surely you know that is true?
However workchoices must wait before the filthy thing re emerges Abbott is dead in the water loved that film clip it will get a lot of hits the Abbott family.

There was an interesting article about the Greens in today’s Australian –among other thing it says this:

“ In the mid-1800s English liberalism had appeared unassailable. However [due to a number of problems] Eventually, British Labour took over as the party of the Left.
Could we, too, be witnessing the strange death of Australian Laborism?
...the Greens are snapping at Labor's electoral heels. Polls consistently show the Greens' primary vote at extremely healthy levels.
Several Labor Left high-flyers face the fight of their political lives in next month's election. If the Greens can break into the lower house… this fight will morph into a full-blown war.
As Dennis Glover argues, environmentalism now represents an existential threat to Labor…Labor has the most to lose (and perhaps gain). There will of course always be some form of conservative party occupying the political spectrum's Centre-Right. By contrast, who leads the Centre-Left will be up for grabs over the next half century.”
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/rise-of-the-greens-could-spell-the-strange-death-of-labor-party/story-e6frgd0x-1225894260227

Certainly something to be mindful of when you’re casting your vote-- or cutting deals --if you’re a laborite.

What do you say Belly?

Dear Belly,

The case you described is disturbing and obviously criminal. It is plain fraud, dishonesty, I see it as a matter for the police and the courts, placing this crooked employer behind bars and making him pay dearly in compensating the 23 workers to which he lied.

As I am not familiar with the case, I take what you wrote at face value, but with due respect, by what I read, this is not a case of forcing a contract, it is not a case of slavery: those workers could simply refuse to sign, and (I assume, unless you inform me otherwise) they would not be beaten or tortured if they did, just be sent home and probably be able to demand compensation for breaking their former contract. It was their free choice to sign for the terms of the agreement, albeit based on fraudulent information.

No matter what the law be, with or without WorkChoices, there probably will always be some inconsiderate or even monsterous crooks with no regard neither to the law nor to their fellow beings. Of course those should be dealt with harshly, yet it gives no justification whatsoever for taking away the freedoms of honest people who wish to make well-informed and consensual agreements between them, which is what Rudd did.

Sorry, but your last paragraph, relating to Abbott (being "dead in the water"?) and his family is so cryptic that I did not understand a thing.

Nice of you to take my statement on face value, why not openly say you think I may have lied?
I think you know I did not and that ten thousand, yes right number of such storys exist.
Remember Howard no GST pledge? did you believe it? can we believe Abbott's different statements about IR.
What statement was written what one was on the run?
John Howard had his battlers, no doubt about it they trusted him and voted for him.
He in his lifetime hatred of unions forgot it is those battlers who suffered under workchoices.
Workchoices bought Howard defeat,even his own seat, you defend it, look hard for a story you can throw at the ALP your rock is a grain of sand the reality of workchoices was a meteor shower on true battlers and fairness in the workplace.
Horus , you are better than that, the greens inhabit soil only a very few want, let them have it, but the reality is Labor is taking ground the conservatives marched away from.
Who will replace Abbott? Joe Hockey is already being fitted for an oversize office seat.
And already trying to out do Abbott in sexist remarks a big job but he is doing it well.

Dear Belly,

"why not openly say you think I may have lied?"

Because such an idea never even crossed my mind. I never had a doubt that you know the facts far better than myself.

"can we believe Abbott's different statements about IR"

Unfortunately I tend to believe, but hope I'm wrong!

I understand that for you, personal freedom is but a grain of sand compared with fairness. For me, however, fairness is but a grain of sand compared with personal freedom. I believe that our different priorities stem from a whole different metaphysical outlook on life.

I think, and very sorry if I am wrong about you, that your outlook is material, while mine is spiritual. I consider the material only as instrumental for one's spiritual evolvement, not as a goal by itself, same for society. Choice is the elementary particle of spirit - take it away and you are left with dead matter, which as far as I am concerned, has no value. Taking away one's free choice is the essence of violence, it is even worse than destroying their body.

Ultimately, nobody can take another's choice away, not against their will, but because and to the extent that we do love each other, we tend to listen, to accept influence, and if the message coming from society is denying free choice, we might allow our spirit to get depressed, or even die. The role of a spiritually-minded government is to provide an environment that fosters free choice, that encourages individuals to exercise it fully, so the government needs to be extremely careful and limit their dictation of what individuals may or may-not do to the very minimum, only to the most severe cases against such members of society that attempt to deny the free choice of others.

As for fairness, it is beyond our human capacity to achieve, but I personally believe that we need not worry about it because in a broad enough view it is already taken care of by God or Nature. In any case, whether I'm right or wrong, kindness is even better.

Belly>>Work choices rechtub dislikes unions/workers it is so clear in every post.

Ah, Belly, you just keep pushing the same barrow, don’t you.

If only you people knew, or even cared, how business works, you might just get the point.

Now let’s take the factory of 300 employees and that additional $400 grand the boss has just been burdened with by way of the pay rise.

In business you must turn a profit, otherwise, you wouldn’t be there, right?

So, it is only fair that if you have to outlay $400 grand, you should at least get $400 grand back for yourself, otherwise you would be better off placing a bet with better than even money odds, Agree?

Now, to get the $400K for wage rises + your $400K, you have to increase your price by $800K.

Now do you think his customer is going to wear that increase, or, do you think they might seek a cheaper alternative?

This is the problem with simply granting a pay rise for nothing in return. Pay rises must be driven by either productivity or profit gains, otherwise the employer looses out.

Often though, they simply ‘outsource’ wherever possible, which results in less factory jobs, which in turn pays for the pay rise for the remaining staff. And you lot think this is clever governing!

In reply to the first post after mine sorry while I understand your view, and with draw the thought you thought I lied I share only some of your views.
I believe in a spirit, not however a God.
I think we must each of us, take responsibility for our actions, all of them .
I can not bring myself to think we can leave wrong for others or God to fix.
Rechtub must you continue to say I push my own wheel barrow? infer I am blindly following my party line?
Do you remember our conversation in another thread about My views on future IR modifications?
Do you understand those views are different from my fellow unionists?
And do you know your slanted and uninformed views about my understanding of small business is wrong.
For a time I owned one employed 5 and all got over award wages.
Every one is a small business selling in the case of a worker time and effort.
Do you want to set your profit but not let them?
Do you understand your multiple shops needs to sell to them to stay in the black.
Rechtub not pulling your chain I just do not think you understand much at all.

*Rehtub* I must say I have a certain degree of sympathy with your position.

..

I have a mate in Freo. He runs a kebab shop. Been having trouble with the local grommits smashing up the furniture out the front so there's been talk of putting in some more sturdy stuff mounted in the concrete as an alternative.

Anyway, rumor suggests that the grommits are kicking up because they can no longer afford consistent and regular good feeds of kebab.

Reason being, is that the Land Lords have put the price of the shop up to $AU10,000 per month. Yes, that means my buddy has to flog himself to all hours and generally bust his guts AND successfully sell lots and lots of kebabs in order to be able to afford his family.

Hmmm .. so who is letting that sort of carry on go on? I'll tell you. Both the Labour and the Liberal party, who whilst different in their policy and approach, are also 2 sides of the same coin.

..

As a Republican, not only am I in favor of an *Australian Head of State, New Flag and New Constitution* (bringing with it the essence of the best of past practices and traditions)I am also in favor of breaking the monopoly of the 2 major parties.

Voting Green can assist that process, by generating a viable 3rd party alternative, and then indeed, it is likely that we will get a fairer voting system.

..

Of course, to have a vibrant eat out economy, the base, the pensioners, need to have both time AND spare $$$ for prime cut, value added yuppy meat, instead of just 6 days out of 7 quiet ones with 1 day a week take away/luxury food.

..

Now, who may I ask you stabilised the base of the economy at the onset of the GFC, notwithstanding some waste, mismanagement and incompetence in other areas?

Hmmm ...

The ALP with the support of the Greens.

..

Remember:

"Look after the pennies and the dollars will look after themselves."

So, to go on from my last post, I seem to recall the news being broadcast that the Greens want to put an increased tax or levy on junk food advertising.

(Someone do please correct me if I have got my facts wrong here.)

Seems rather silly to me to tackle the problem of bad health associated with excess consumption of junk food by making it more expensive, as in so doing people will be forced to eat at home more and won't be out and about on the town spending their excess money round and about and here and there.

..

Perhaps the Greens should target the food laws and get cuts in sugars per combo or something along those lines as an alternative.

..

And as for those who advocate locking children up indefinitely, without charge or trial contrary to the advice of mental health experts, well, I say, the best place for people like john howard and his mates, including those within the ALP, is on the inside of a prison cell.

..

For those who opposed howard's nomination to the International Cricket Board - WELL DONE! - I take my hat off to you all. BRAVO!

Dream On while your post interested me they did not seem to contribute to the direction of the thread.
Looked like you had some thing to say and could not find the right thread.
But show me how Abbott or Gillard can help your mate?
Are we to control rents for him? if he is staying he must think it is worth it.
Would I be right in saying your mate is one of a great many who battle to keep head above water in such business?
And all too often they fail, if how ever it gos ok they may get a great life you Gamble you win or not it is life.

Belly, small business, 'retail' days are doomed, esspecially in shopping centres anyway, as rents are simply to high now. My two shops will be my last.

Off track a bit, but at present, majors, Coles Wollies enjoy subsidised rents, thanks to the mini majors and the specialty stores.They also rent thier internal space to suppliers.

Now as these SB fail, and they will, the centres will no longer be able to provide cheap rents for majors and they will be forced into 'warehouses' where rents are cheap. Internet shopping is also gaining momentum, slowly.

Look out then if you thought think food is expensive now. No competition for the majors will spell disarster for the consumer.

Back on track.
All I can say is that when labor came to power we were in good shape and now we are broke + some and, madam PM was #2 when all this occurred.

I say again, ask not if we can afford TA and the libs, ask wether we can risk another term of labor. Let's face it, histrory shows they have a lousy track record when it comes to waste. Two goes in two decades, both wastefull says enough for me.

Thanks for that *RehTub* At least you have an awareness of the reality on the ground as opposed to *Belly* who seems to be somewhat divorced from it courtesy of his myopic support for his chosen party, which perhaps accounts for his inability to discern relevant material when confronted with it.

But to answer his question, indeed I am in favour of placing dynamic, indexed ceilings on property prices and thereby leveraging and lording a control mechanism over rental prices, amongst others in this sector.

My mate, were it not for being roped to his committments, probably would tell his greed little <snip> land lord to stick his rent <snip, snip, snip> so no *Belly* I am reasonably sure that he is not staying because he thinks it's worth it, but rather because he as of yet does not have a better alternative to fund his liabilities.

..

To think that we have so many homeless people in such a wealthy country is just an in bad taste example of the problem of letting greed and an ill conceived notion of free markets get out of control.

Verily, greedy land owners are a curse wherever you find them in the world.

Prices of property etc are no longer based on solid fundamentals and intrinsic value in Australia but rather on what business believe people are able to afford to pay.

It's a joke.

I guess one thing that concerns me is that many people seem to endorse voting Green purely because they want a third major party to break the ALP/Coalition duopoly. Forgive me if I'm wrong - I don't mean to offend here. And please don't think I'm preaching or smearing - I'm just commenting on what I have observed here and in the 'real world'.

I certainly applaud those people who vote Green because they agree with the Greens' policies. That is what democracy is about. Voting Green simply because they're not Labor or Liberal concerns me because people who do not necessarily agree with their policies or have faith in them as a party are, in effect, creating a third monster. When finding that third party, we need to make sure we find the right party - one that will truly break the mould and break it in the 'right' way. My parents tell me of elections that took place when Rhodesia was becoming Zimbabwe. Many people voted for the underdog (I think it was Canaan Banana - might have been Bishop Muzorewa or Josiah Gumede [I should have listened more carefully]) simply to avoid voting for either of the bigwigs. So many, in fact, that he won. The rest is history.

So, to reiterate - good on those people who vote Green because they believe the Green way is the right way. But be careful if your motives lie elsewhere.

DreamOn,

Rents are actually cheaper today than they were 20 years ago.ROI

I say negative-G and CGT are major causes of high rents and affordabillity, but! To address this the government could.

1. Phase out NG over 5-10 years, say at 5-10% P/Y

2. Phase out CGT at same time.

Currently, one has to hold a property for at least 12 months to receive a 50% reduction on CGT. This means that this property is out of the market for at least 12 months and, is only sold if a reasonable gain has been made, otherwise, the costs associated with buying, selling and re-buying outweigh the gains.

End result, shortage of properties.

Greens
I note that the greens want to impose a 50% tax on miners.

Of cause they call this a 'profits based tax'. So, what is 'company tax' if it's not 'profit based'?

Isn't 'company tax' paid on after expense profits?

Now on the other hand, if they wish to play around with 'royalties', then that's fine, but only if a profit is made, otherwise, minimal royalties should be paid. The royalties will fuctuate depending on the prices received. Now that's fair for miners and people alike, don't you think?

You see, both labor, and esspecially the greens, see mining as a potential 'cash cow', which, by the way, they held little interest in when coal was at $30 a ton.

The greens also want to ban fishing, pretty much along the entire east coast. One of the most participated, family orientated pasttimes around.

Now unless hell freezes over, a vote for the greens will be a vote for labor and who can ever forget the crap we went through the last time some geen fagget held the balance of power.

BTW, there will be more to come from the revelation that our former PM paid little interest in national security.

Now, where was his number 2 during this, I ask?

Interesting ideas re: property *RehTub* and I should like to hear more of the policies of those who are standing for election in relation to same.

..

*Otokonoko* raises an interesting historical point but I can't see any parallels in the comparison when considering the *Greens* and otherwise consider his concept of the "political game" to be limited.

..

As for the *Greens* policies, well there are enough of their members here for them to able to speak for themselves however:

1. In the matter of phasing out of coal and the phasing in of Green energy tech and energy positive households, they have my support.

2. In the matter of the upgrading of our electoral system they have my support.

3. In the matter of safeguarding our fisheries so that there will always be wild stocks in abundance for our recreational pleasure, they have my support.

4. In the matter of the protection of endangered habitat and native flora and fauna, they have my support.

5. In the matter of the protection of the higher order mammalian species from the barbaric depravities of the Japs and others, they have my support.

6. In the matter of the liberation of Tibet from the Human Rights abusing communist party of china, they have my support and I note that whilst I do not have an issue with constructive engagement and trade for the benefit of both our societies, the sovereign claims of Human Right's abusers are to be mostly ignored and additional efforts to encourage regime change should be encouraged.

There's obviously more to say, but me thinks that is enough to consider in relation to the topic of this thread.

DreamOn,

"I am in favour of placing dynamic, indexed ceilings on property prices"

Would that mean denying two consenting individuals from mutually agreeing on a transaction they both want to make?

If you cannot see the inherent evil in even contemplating something like that, here are some practical consequences:

1. Transactions will take place under the table, with only a portion of the price reported (and taxed).

2. No one will invest in renovations. Larger cracks and leaking roofs will become the norm.

3. Because people will not be allowed to sell their homes for what they already invested in it, they will stay longer in houses where they no-longer want to live, or are inappropriate to their changed family-conditions, or are next to bad neighbours, or away from relatives, friends and jobs. They will not even afford to retire to a respectable retirement-village/nursing-home once their health prevents them from continuing to live in their own home.

Dream on>> In the matter of safeguarding our fisheries so that there will always be wild stocks in abundance for our recreational pleasure, they have my support.

Best do your research on this one.

DreamOn, thanks for the feedback.

In my mind, the parallels are clear if a little extreme. I probably didn't explain them clearly, though, and I apologise for that.

In a nutshell, I'm arguing that to vote for someone because of who they AREN'T rather than who they ARE is to endorse potentially bad policy. It is rewarding someone simply for not being Labor or Liberal, rather than for coming up with something refreshing, new and productive. It is negative voting, just as badmouthing political rivals is negative campaigning.

That said, I'm not going to go as far as saying that the Greens' policies are bad. I do suspect that they are empty words, and that if the Greens found themselves in a real position of power they would be horrified at the thought of having to follow through, but then again they have never been given the chance to prove themselves in a meaningful way.

I agree that the Greens should have a voice in Parliament, because they represent the views of a considerable number of Australians. I do, however, worry about the potentially inflated influence they will be able to exercise not because the people agree with them, but because the people don't agree with the others.

DreamOn
1. Phasing out coal. We would all like to see that, but, until there is a solution to the potential job losses, or at lease hard evidence to the contrary, then I don't support that.

3. There is a difference between 'safeguarding stocks' and down right 'lockouts'. Do your reserch and you will find that it's the ameture fishers that are being locked out and, once again, thousands of jobs are at risk.

4. Try telling this to anyone who lost their home to a somewhat 'preventable' bushfire.

6. Rather than try to change some elses laws, how about trying to assist Tasmainian farmers so they don't have to sell thier land/livelihoods.

You think IR is a problem here now, just wait until the likes of China get their roots imbedded here.

They can see the problems looming with our increasing 'food production' costs. In ten/twenty years they won't be able to afford to buy our goods and they have nowhere to grow thier own. Only a fool would allow our best AG land to be sold off like this.

Unfortunatly, with the 'greens', it's normally a case of 'our way, or the high way'.

History shows this when they held the balance of power back in the late 90's.

Crying for the high price brigade.
Reality please.
On buying you want prices to be low on selling you want high.
Market forces drive it both ways.
Take an honest look at greens policy's.
SEE? now you understand why they are the third power forever at best

Well everyone appears to know the difference between in principal assertions and the "Devil in the detail."

I am yet to hear or read the latest *Green* policies in detail in fact so I shall go and have a sniff about and see what substance is being published by everyone.

..

However, despite Belly's claims, the *Greens* have made some excellent ground in recent times and the fact that they appear poised to scoop the "Balance of Power" is a great testament to their numerous achievements.

..

I wonder if the Indigenous party has gotten up and whether they have a policy on burning off pre the fire season for you *RehTub*?

And I'd bet they support recreational fishing and maybe some feral animal hunting tourism too? Better to get the Japs down here to do something like that to pump up the tourist industry than watching them butcher whales and dolphins to the brink of extinction in certain locales to sate their blood lust.

.. Re property, the bottom line for me is that minimum wage earners can no longer afford to own their own home in Australia and that to me is an absolute travesty.

The distinct lack of transparency and accountability from builders and tradesmen in the quoting and billing is appalling. What is it these days? $AU2,000 per square metre, $AU2,500 per square metre? And for what exactly?

No. Its not the way it needs to be done if you wish to encourage competition.

It should be, here are my drawings, .. and what I want is a quote detailing the complete inventory of the type and quantity of materials used along with the itemised prices.

I am in favor of profit being disclosed, so people can see a builder knocking up 8 $AU250,000 houses a year at $AU50,00 profit per go.

How many doctors even make that kind of money, and I'd point out that it doesn't take too much expertise and training to be able to fix everything inside a house. The same can't be said about people's bodies though.

DreamOn,
You should have noted that I did not comment on the 'whale debate', so please stop linking me to this one.

As for controled buring. That makes perfect sence and anyone should know that. Less fuel = less risk of fires becomming uncontainable.

Also, with many forested areas being 'out of bounds', they have become a breeding haven for feral animals. That one is certainly a 'no brainer'. Farmers used to manage much of these areas once, now they are locked out.

Builders ripping us off. You have my support there. They are a joke. Leave school with a very limited education, learn how to lay and finnish concrete, wow that;s hard, and earn $400+ a day. Any wonder we are in a mess. That's more than some doctors earn.

Housing affordabillity is tough, no doubting that. But, if a couple takes home say $1100 a week they should be able to save for a house around $350K, unless of cause they want something that is out of thier reach.

It depend what they spend thier 'disposable' money on.

*RehTub* here are the Greens policies on "Natural Resources."

http://greens.org.au/policies/agriculture-natural-resources/natural-resources

In principal, I can't see any problem with what they are saying and can't as of yet see any evidence to suggest as you say that they seek a ban on all recreational fishing on the east coast of Australia.

If they did, and if their policy as outlined in the link above is legitimate, then I would assume that it has an ecological basis.

..

INDIGENOUS: SEASONAL BACK BURNING - TICK

..

INDIGENOUS: FERAL BEAST HUNTING TOURISM - TICK

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INDIGENOUS: ECO RANGERS - TICK

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INDIGENOUS: TRADITIONAL & ORGANIC EATERIES to compliment ECO TOURISM (indigenous spice, earth ovens, traditional utensils & serving solutions, native leaf wraps etc)

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DREAMON: Review and regulate building standards and practices with a view to scaling down costs in the interests of AFFORDABILITY AND NATIONAL SAVINGS.

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DREAMON: REVIEW AND REGULATE BANKING to make loans for small business comparable with home loans, noting the comment that the big banks are "too big to fail" AND adding to that "and too big to do as they please, whenever they please."

*Yuyutsu* mayhaps a "ceiling" on prices is not the ideal way to go however, prices can't keep going up and up and up AND there needs to be a correction, which indeed will be painful for some AS property values are excessively inflated and no longer affordable for single minimum income earners, raising the issue of the Australian *QUALITY OF LIFE* standard and economically forced partnering.

..

DREAMON: Regulate quoting and invoicing practice in the interests of TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

:

DREAMON/GREEN: DON'T ABUSE CHILDREN BY LOCKING THEM UP FOR EXTENDED PERIODS WITHOUT CHARGE OR TRIAL AND THEREBY IMPERILING THEIR MENTAL HEALTH

:

DREAMON: Regulate Medics back to Medicare, Lawyers back to the taxable rate and Dentists back to the private insurance threshold EXCEPTING those who directly participate and contribute to generating international revenue streams such as that from new tech product, procedures or services sold on the international market or the legalese for export contracts and the like.

*When you cast your votes, please remember, what are the policies that you like?*

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DREAMON: One off the Hip - INTERNATIONAL EQUALITY OF RELATIONSHIPS - If the Indonesians won't let Australians own land in Indonesia, then don't let them own land here. The same goes for every other country in the world who practice racism, discrimination and double standards.

BLUE: Drastically REDUCE the immigration intake - TICK

RED: SUSTAINABLE immigration only - TICK

RED: UPGRADE THE SKILLS base of Australians - TICK

DREAMON: Immigration for legitimate ASYLUM SEEKERS YES, corruption kiddies, despots and their cronies etc NO.

GREEN: A fairer election system - get the politicians you vote for - abolish the 2 party preferred political system.

REPUBLICAN: New Constitution, New Flag and an AUSTRALIAN Head of State.

CMC/GREEN: Full and Equal Rights for Gays, Lesos and Trannies, including Marriage Rights.

GREEN: Equal pay for all, based on merit NOT gender or sexual orientation.

I honestly think.
With Friends like Dream on
Greens do not need enemy's.
The over use of caps is not changing my mind.
And to think this poster said I was a closed thinker.

Well, I must say that I'm over awed by the quality of the substance in your post *Belly* It's absolutely oozing with eloquence substantiated by fact.

But then, I have heard it said more than once that the only difference between the ALP Right and the Liberal Party is their mechanism of garnishing votes.

What a laugh!

..

OY! I'll tell you who won tonight's debate - *GREEN BOB BROWN*

Coz he's so HOT as the man of the moment that the Blues & the Reds are too scared too even let him have a go with the "FOOTY!"

*Abott* is keen for another series of debates though isn't he? And the current tin pot system is a 2 party preferred system isn't it, and NOT the Liberal and Labour party system? Thus, technically speaking, anyone legitimately registered can win so why shouldn't we hear from the others?

As it is reasonably possible that the *GREENS* may hold the BALANCE of POWER then the people have the RIGHT to hear from them directly.

Let us the people hear then how the *GREENS* would use the power if they got it by testing them by way of debate against *Abbott and Gillard*

..

All those in favor!?

..

Oh, by the way *Pork Belly* I am as said not a member of the Greens, but do believe that some of their policies are spot on for what Australia and the world needs right here and right now.

Personally though, if I was able to have my way, I would have a system in the courts where the judges had more powers like in some of the European systems, to cut through the pettiness of the adversarial system, and in the legislature, I would draw Ministerial specialists from across the spectrum.

So for example, a RED for INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS, a BLAKFELLA for INDIGENOUS AFFAIRS, a BLUE for FINANCE, a GREEN for the ENVIRONMENT etc where the art of the Prime Minister or Head of State would be in the unification and Harmonisation of the various Spheres of Influence.

Sorry Dream On while I never gave much weight to your barbs and arrows style of debate.
I was unaware you are just a kid.
The caps thing looks a bit gay to me, but each to his/her own.
Pork Belly?
How churlishly cute.
Thanks however for entrenching the view your posts are no longer worth reading.
Hope you do well in your exams Good by.

I don't think you're sorry about anything *Belly* and as usual, you continue to demonstrate your witless style, with its typical lack of substance, citation and substantiation.

As for your HOMOPHOBIC comments, well why doesn't that surprise me?

Don't you have some "branch stacking" to do, or haven't you ever done that before? Or perhaps you want to do some advocating for locking children up?

..

As for my age, well, I like to try to remain "young at heart" but here again, you demonstrate your idiocy by asserting matters as fact without substantiation when you clearly have no idea about that which you are speaking and are quite plainly incorrect.

It is not uncommon for the less than competent to attack style when confronted with substance to which they have no answer and you do thereby categorise accordingly.

And I must admit, I have noted that you often struggle to put a coherent sentence together though I have always treated your posts as all others, filling in the blanks and wonky bits as I go.

..

As for this thread, in this pre-election time I am finding it both enjoyable and interesting to float up some policy ideas and critique and analyse those of others.

I am yet to see a positive contribution fro you though, whereas, whilst I may stand some distance from *Blue RehTub* and others, at least they have something substantial to contribute.

Well perhaps the real motive behind madam Pm not wnting any further debates has just been revealed, that being her apparent depossing of some key policies, 'paternity leave' and 'pension increases'.

I guess she doesn't want to be grilled about these topics, hey! Hence no more debates.

So, the question begs, what about the 'insulation', or 'school funding' debarcles, did she oppose those as well?

Now in the case of the schools building scandel, if she was so thoughough with her checks and balances, as she says she is, then how did this scheme get through and, more importantly, how did it go so bad. Remeber, it was 'her baby'.

Please remeber these crucial points when you cast your vote.

Be fair rehctub
I have also been critical of some aspects of the government but the PM said from the beginning that there would only be one debate - well before the recent news about pensions and parental leave. And I think it is pretty clear who is the leaker but that is another story.