In another thread I said some subjects are taboo.
While I was able to continue the subject it soon became twisted.
My genuine concerns about some gravel, in my view in the pudding mix we know as Multi culturism was worth a thought saw me, well lets us see.
I want to inform those who do not know the left is a very big church, more often than not separate from one another.
I am proud to be both left of center and totally against the very lost true left.
PC is a tool of that part the Minority part of the left.
On the web they infer they have the numbers, they are right,,,, but only to fill one phone box.
Can we talk about the few, who from within a religion may be more trouble than they are worth?
A minority within a minority?
Do we need to forever let religion rule us any religion.
IF the thread get a run it is my intention it look at Muslim migration , that it does not explore the idea that it is a whole people that concerns me but that minority.
PC stifles debate takes our right to true free speech away worse tells us majority's rights do not matter.

I'm not really sure what your point is, but if we're going to keep throwing religion into the pool of debate as a negative how about we open a thread on Marxism - Leninism's Atheist ideology and its current and historical role, eh?.

Belly, assuming the thread were not to be distracted, what policy proposal were you wanting to discuss? Do you mean restricting the immigration of Muslims?

'Do we need to forever let religion rule us any religion.'

From my simple observation it is usually greed, lust,pride and selfishness that rules people. It seems you are concerned that religion might change these things.

Belly old mate....Poets today have a beer.

It seems to me that your problem is where does one draw the line between fall out of ones tree irrational, insulting, harmful, bollocks and a real issue worthy of discussion.

No real topic is unspeakable the issue is how one goes about it and where or with whom.
To me the answer is clear, at least publicly :- When the subject/argument can't or ceases to be substantiated by facts, proportion and or treats someone unfairly.
In many, not all situations Claims of being shut down by PC are
- exagerated
- topic was wrong place, time or/and to wrong people.

I find many topics are proxies for real subjects.
i.e. if one were to take the "Muslim (non issue)" the protagonists are really expressing fear (via a irrational prejudice) of some kind. In which case it is the fear needs to be addressed.
- fear of the unknown,don't understand
- change,
- something different,
- missing out on something,
- loss of status et al. i.e. Christianity might lose its dominance, culture may change from Euro-centric to ?

Muslims as an entity are no more likely to kill Aussies than Alcohol/ignorance fueled nongs.
Fact more people are killed maimed by the former than the latter.
More people have died in the name of Christianity than almost any other source barring disease.

Let's look at what can happen when PC is ignored say in the paper
How would you feel about 5 boys going to a granny's house for afternoon tea ...demanded money...refused.. then killed the woman with a fire extinguisher. And the media singled out one boy as being 3/4th generation Anglo Saxon parentage who owned a restaurant?
Part 1

Part 2

Yet in reality the media mentioned that *one* of the boys was of middle eastern background whose parents owned a restaurant. What the paper wrote was true but what they didn't report was: He wasn't involved in the murder he was hanging with his mates.

Of the three who did the murder one was a grand son of the victim. 4 out of the 5 had criminal records (two were on bail for a bungled servo heist). Which lad didn't have a record?...Now guess which family had to sell their business it 's clientele crashed ?

There was an up surge in local racist tensions, the ethnic boy's little brother was bashed in the school yard

PS I know/knew 2 of the Anglo boys and the girlfriend of one. She broke it off yet he started to harass her at work to whereby the shop owner started driving her home.
He was …..moved to the other side of town until the trial. He's now in jail.
The innocent boy, brother and family ? ….they were forced to move interstate.

My point one needs to be very careful as to what unsubstantiated, emotional out of proportion views one airs in public because it can and does encourage the less discerning in their half baked bigotry.

This story was fed back to me on another site as proof of why Muslims are a risk.
Side note: the family were in fact Maronite Christians.

One thing that many people seem unaware of (or in denial of) is the fact that "political correctness" is EQUALLY practiced by BOTH the left and right.

BOTH extremes have their "engineered" social/political/religious/sexual etc etc etc etc etc dogmas that they love inflicting on society.

Examinator I will not even try to find common ground with you on this I totally oppose your stated view as warm and cuddly but not seeing the truth.
Runner you are no recommendation for any God, I in this thread am talking of SOME MUSLIMS.
Do we turn our heads to those hate filled marches after those cartoons?
Show me, please do any other religion that March's to call for murder like that.
Do we forget a death order on the head of an author for just writing a book.
This Christmas some shops will not show runners Christs birth, because it may offend 1% of our migrant population.
Cuddle those who want us to change to your Brest examinator, take your high moral ground but know few truly share your wish to import a culture that seems to want to bury mine.
Find me one other faith in this country that preaches against our way of life.
Bali happened murders took place others will do we need to be blind to problems so we are not called out for caring more for our future than others?
I can walk in safety in any migrant groups new settled area without fear have you examinator tried to do that in Sydney's west?

Why Belly? At the end of the day if religion and a minority group is not a threat, why would you or any person be concerned? Are you trying to reach young voters minds to educate them or raise awareness of religious cults or religious voting methods?

I would credit both the young Australian voters and most Australian voters with a little intelligence and common sense; or perhaps you may be concerned most will make the mistake again, not thinking of yet another major deficit, and vote labor?

Belly, your last post displays a fundamental ignorance of Islam.

What you "think" are Muslims are in fact **FUNDAMENTALISTS**. Islam, like Christianity, is about peace and love.

BOTH faiths have been hijacked to varying degrees by **FUNDAMENTALISTS**, at different points in history. Christians used to, en masse, invade and murder and torture in God's name.

Fundamentalists are NOT Christians or Muslims........ they are **FUNDAMENTALISTS**.

Some people just don't understand the difference, or don't want to.

Open your mind Belly.

Muslims and Christians are generally fine people. Fundamentalists are a minority; a tiny but active and dangerous minority worldwide; it's been that way for centuries upon centuries. It's the fundamentalists that are the problem. Good, caring Christians and Muslims live in virtually every suburb in every city in the world.

So I must open my mind? not say what I think not question do we expect migrants to just turn into Aussies in a few generations?
And my baseless fears about Muslim community leaders public statements made here in our country often are insulting.
Must I say it is ok PC can stifle debate ,have its will let minority views be heard but not majority ones.
I am not educating any one not trying to,but as often in my workplace I am being a voice for those who do not wish to say in public what they think.
This week in western Sydney at work, I saw a beautiful young lady healthy child in her arms burka on her head.
I said Gday in an extremely good mannered way [I always go that extra inch to be so to women]and walked past.
She said up most offended and said nothing.
So tell me is it only me? or are we importing a culture that has some within it that will bring trouble?
How do we tell a fundamentalist from a not fundamentalist?
7/7 was England's Bali, English Muslims did that.
Today is anniversary of Bali show me how to forget that.

Belly

Could be the young woman was so accustomed to being treated rudely for wearing a hijab (I presume, burkas cover everything)) that she did not expect anyone to be friendly and was expecting some bad behaviour. Sad indictment on us.

Myyyyy GOODness EXAMMY... you really know how to peddle tripe and prejudice mate.

You made TWO fatal errors in your last posts.

1/ i.e. if one were to take the "Muslim (non issue)" the protagonists are really expressing fear (via a irrational prejudice) of some kind. In which case it is the fear needs to be addressed.

2/ More people have died in the name of Christianity than almost any other source barring disease.

Now.. let's get on with your therapy without further ado.

On 1/, the problem is not the 'irrational phobia' of those who see the 'ISLAMic issue' as a serious one, it is rather IGnorance of those who see rational justifiable scrutiny as a phobia. (like u it seems)
That ignorance is exacerbated by a secular world view usually.

If the advocate of that argument has no faith, so they simply cannot understand HOW people of faith understand their own holy books.
If you don't understand Islam or it's holy books, please stop making yourself look a total dill by making uninformed sloganesque pronouncements on them.

on 2/... oh my... apart from being patently untrue.. it could even be seen as religious vilification here in the fair state of Victoria.
The combined total of victims of Atheists.. Stalin and Mao make anything else look like a drop in an ocean of death.

So, please get OFF your high horse of 'unthoughtout, unsupported' vacuuous myopic statements and come back to reality and rationality.

Anyone can throw mud...but it takes an argument with merit for it to stick.

Oh dear me! Poor old Boaz/polycarp/agir just loves to show his lack of Christianity, and how he lives in a self induced fantasy world. Apparently, if someone points out to him that religious fundamentalists have murdered, then poor old Boaz IMMEDIATELY points out that "athiests" have murdered more. He TOTALLY glosses out the **FACT** that fundamentalists, under the name of Christianity, have been historically responsible for devastating invasions, murders, rapes, tortures etc etc etc. His reply to examinator resorts to personal abuse and invective, in an immature display that has nothing in common with Christianity.

As shown by his often inhumane attitudes here, Boaz/polycarp/agir is as "Christian" as the Pope is a Muslim. Boaz has very little in common with Jesus Christ.

Belly asks " So I must open my mind? not say what I think not question".

**NO** Belly, no no no.

Because I ask you to "open your mind" does NOT mean you "must" open your mind. You are perfectly entitled to have attitudes that I see as uninformed bigotry.

You have the absolute right to "say what you think", even when I consider what you say to be uninformed bigotry.

You have the absolute right to question ....... to question anything whatsoever.

On the question regarding your attitudes to Muslims, you show by your statements that you have scant understanding of Islam. It's clear you believe the "uninformed" PC rhetoric followed to the letter by many people in Western societies, that Muslims are out to "get you". You fail to understand the difference between fundamentalism and Islam. Just as many people fail to understand the difference between fundamentalism and Christianity when discussing atrocities committed by fundamentalists throughout history in the name of Christianity.

Belly, fundamentalism is your enemy, NOT Muslims.

Anti religious bigotry is a horrid thing, and many people throughout history have suffered terribly as a result. Everybody has a right to either worship, or not worship, as they choose.

And please Boaz/polycarp/agir don't hit me with Koran quotes showing that Islam is horrible and mean. As everyone knows, for every ancient horrible Koran quote, there's an ancient horrible "Bible" quote. So give us a break and lay off the PC crap buddy!

Taboo remember? look at the focus on saying to me I am wrong to think as I do.
I understand most Muslims are no threat.
But those who complain about my thread are the same folk who talk of free speech.
The same folk who cry shame about the Crunulla riot but say nothing about the months maybe years of taunting life Gard's and Australians on that beach.
No way, middle class self righteous folk who see another reality than me will silence me.
For those from almost every migrant group multi culturism here means two culture theirs and ours.
I fear another culture growing within ours and making demands on us to change.

It is a thread I started yet I am at a loss to say just what I think.
Let me use my job as a way of illustration.
I will put two or three different construction lunch rooms together to tell this story.
They are skilled and non skilled construction sheds.
457 visa people from South Africa, a married couple from NZ while both boiler makers.
Pacific Islanders Christian Lebanese Greeks and from every European country.
I am a blokes bloke what you see is what you get.
I am often stunned all these folk offering not being prompted information on how much they like Australia, and warning me we are ruining it!
Not one of those people come to work dressed in their national dress, none ask me to honor their way of life all of them are no more a threat than any human.
One day the streets of some place in my country will see blood run down the footpaths.
Almost certainly those who do this will be Australian born.
Who have at home been told over and again how lucky they are to be here, yet it is certain it will happen.
Some see migration in terms of 100 years in the future,,,,, breed hate out that silly stuff but only with no Gods can we truly live together.
Do not like Boazy say my God is ok beggar the rest the belief in God separates us, in some if mankind is not one we are nothing.

Belly

>>> I fear another culture growing within ours and making demands on us to change. <<<

Our culture is different from what it was 100 years ago, 50 years ago and will be very different 50 years from now.

If you fear certain authoritarian, misogynistic, narrow-minded religions infiltrating and holding undue influence over our freedoms, I'd be keeping a vigilant eye on the religions that already have high numbers and already influence our politics and laws - fundamentalist, evangelistic and money hungry, right-wing Christians.

And I'd just like to add, no Muslims EVER enter MY property, knock on MY front door and attempt to shove their beliefs down my throat!

Suggest you get your priorities right. If the sight of a woman and child giving you the eye fills you with fear and anger, mate you need a major rethink.

My view Severin and Belly is that you are both correct. Belly, now I fully comprehend your thread and what it is you are raising after a more detailed scenario.

Severin, I agree with you too; fundamentalists are a dangerous breed, many of whom, through generations caused terrorism and murders having given their own interpretation slant and actions in the name of their religion.

It is concepts you are seeking Belly to address the issues that exist regarding multi-culturalism, in terms of long term Australians mixing and communicating effectively with newcomers to Australia; in particular, people of middleeastern background?

Tonight will try and return to thread if its here and share some of my daughters and my experiences regarding the topics.

Severin I do like you as a poster, but here you are taking a liberty.
You may not! put words in my mouth or thoughts I do not have in my head.
That lady walked suburban streets I once lived in, in fact Paul Hogan did too a dozen face lifts ago.
She may have found me strange few Aussies walk those streets now.
I have time and again said migration made my country great.
I worked often as the only Aussie with people from every country it is the Muslim way, of some, too many, Muslims I do not want to share.
I WANT no religion none to say how we should live and not one who wants God to govern.
Like me, hate me that is how I think as multi culturism suffers because some few miss use our good will you may see my point of view.

Belly

No matter what system we have in place there will always be someone who'll take advantage. I didn't think I was putting words into your mouth at all. That was not my intent. However, before I posted I had just read AGiR's last post on this thread and I am far more afraid of his ilk than I am of an Islamic woman who may have just been having a bad day.

You talk about walking in areas where everyone is 'different' to how they were some years ago. Do you ever travel outside Australia? Try walking down a street in any non-Caucasian country. Being the only white in the village really brings things into perspective. Australia has a wonderful varied mixture of people and I don't want to live in a place where there is only one type of person. Go to various locales in Melbourne and you could be surrounded by Greeks or Orthodox Jews or Vietnamese or indeed Middle Eastern people wearing Middle Eastern clothing; in Brunswick and Coburg not only the women are wearing hijabs (burkas are very rare) but the men are wearing tunics over pants and white skull-caps.

I really don't believe that we are in danger of being overrun by fundy Islamists any time soon. However, I AM looking forward to seeing a non-religious person voted in as PM at the next election. Howard, Rudd and Abbott use(d) religion to their own ends. No politician should have to sit through or sit outside a morning prayer of any religion before parliament starts, I think that it is disgraceful.

Thank you to 'we are unique' for your post.

benq, I've been appreciating the point that you have been making regarding fundamentalism.

The point which I want to highlight and which I suspect drives a lot of the concern is how unwilling most people are to challenge the extremists from their own groups in public (and sometimes in private).

That seems to be a trait with most groupings especially if the group as a whole is being attacked. Extremists on both sides play on it by polarising conflicts so that people feel that they must take sides and often the result will come down to an identity issue more than what's right.

I suspect that most of us have a tendency to notice the extremes of the other side and see them as extreme and excuse those from our own side as passion.

We will tend to ascribe the more extreme positions to an entire group we are suspicious of (or suspect that silence on an issue equates to some sympathy for extreme views) while seeing our own grouping as accommodating a broad range of views but not wanting to give the opposition ammunition by airing differences public.

It's not just the fundamentalists who are a concern, it's how willing the rest are to clearly reject the extreme positions which ferments much of the concern.

R0bert

I can not will not agree with those last two posts.
I am not talking about another country, I am not making my views based on one street encounter.
I am aware some from every religion are bad some are good but WHY ignore those outspoken fools who lead Some Muslim groups in Sydney?
Every word Tradd says insults me, his defense of that meat monster is on record put your heads under the blanket but my concerns are not those of a bigot .
But truly held ones about some who are indeed bigots.

Belly

Every word George Pell utters insults me. Few speak out against him. As R0bert has stated part of the problem is the lack of call to accountability by the moderate majority.

Are people so restrained by PC, they will not take a stand?

Maybe they are; 'whistleblowers' are often derided as bullies - simply for pointing out that the 'king wears no clothes'. I have been part of an online stoush recently where, every day I expected to see my opinions deleted and my subscription suspended for no more than speaking out. I was never rude, never un-PC. Now if this is how difficult it is for people to honestly express their opinions on a secular forum such as OLO? Then I can imagine how difficult it is to speak out against a group of which you are a part, particularly religion which has a massive emotional hold over people.

In short, there are no easy answers. However, there is no point in criticising Islam without a good hard look at all religions. For example, Nick Xenophon has with good intention focused on the tax breaks received by the Church of Scientology. He doesn't go far enough - all religions need to be brought to account starting with the biggest, most powerful religions. I don't see that happening any time soon, do you?

One of Australia's most respected economists, John Quiggin, published an interesting article on his blog yesterday that was reproduced in today's Crikey. While the article is mostly a concise explanation of why the Greens are the best choice for voters, I was struck by the truth of this footnote:

<< The one genuine example of “political correctness” in Australian politics is the one that prevents us from using the word “racist” to describe racism, but there’s no doubt that’s what it is. >>

I've also noticed that certain people react incredibly aggressively when their racism is pointed out to them. Ms Gillard seemed to be advocating this version of "PC" in her first silly pronouncements about asylum seekers, but I note that she's backpedalled a bit from her initial dog-whistles.

Full article at http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2010/07/18/the-case-for-the-greens/ . Read it and weep.

It clouds the mind of the infidel.
It is a weapon for division and conquest.
PC is a blessing from Allah.

Severin that post could have been mine I think Pell should be in prison.
And started a thread about tax breaks for exclusive brethren and the sci fi religion, but in truth all creeds stop man being one.
Doubt the post above comes from a Muslim, you never know however SOME from that religion use lies as they use air.
C J Morgan, ok I am a racist!
Not in my view but yours at least.
I think our different backgrounds [as a green you are most likely high income and private school educated]
I working class under fead under educated.
I like you vote to my beliefs and will fill out the whole senate ticket this time, Brown is not my idea of a worthy candidate.
PC I know I knew it on starting this thread, you just can not say you truly, honestly, hold the view Muslim migration is not working and never will.
Such claims must scream to you I am racist.
To me? it is concern for My country, I truly think ANY RELIGION divides us.
And while not all far too many inner City Muslim groups are as racist as ANY GROUP in history including the KKK.
I however am voting green in the NSW election Labor will not get my preference.

Belly

I knew we were on different points of the same spectrum. I don't know how Pell gets away with his indifference to children, women and his obvious fundamentalist religious roots.

As for your comment on MohammedKharr - I agree, his few posts all stink of troll.

My two cents: Political Correctness is about fake ideals and suppression of honesty.

Courtesy and respect is real.

PS

Respect is a two way street, any authority who believes s/he is entitled to respect simply for being in a position of power should note they, more than their subordinates, need to earn it first. And leading by example is a good start.

The earliest printed reference that is unambiguous in its use of 'politically correct' in its current commonly understood sense is Toni Cade's The Black Woman, 1970:

"A man cannot be politically correct and a chauvinist too."

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/287100.html