During this past 'interesting' week I encountered a disturbing story of discrimination.

A neighbour related an experience she had at the Angliss hospital in Ferntree Gully. She is white and Aussie. She had her first baby in difficult circumstances. Premature and complications saw her precious little one needing humidicrib time of a few days. When she and her husband came to the hospital to meet and nurse their precious little bundle of joy, the last thing they expected was outright discimination in the name of MultiCulturalism.
When the nurse brought out their child, and this lady was going to breast feed him, the nurse asked the husband to leave, because it might offend a Muslim woman present in the room.

HAM SANDWICH affair. Yes, we all know that one. 87% of Hume shire residents discriminated against by the council, who denied them the opportunity to eat Ham Sangers, so as not to offend the 13% Muslim residents at council functions. (all they needed was a table of Halal Food, but hey.. who am I to speak common sense ?)

PASTORS SUED. The Racial and Relgious Tolerance Act was meant to protect people from discrimination and racism based on their religion.
It turned out being interpreted in the opposite way. By protecting manipulation, conspiracy and religious discrimination against Christians by Muslims.

Territorial Claim and racist gangs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlDztjPzvSM

STOP WHINGING AND START DOING. Yep, such things disturb us all. But how do we respond ? Usually, we whine, whinge, complain, pace, rant, rave, mumble and maybe even chirp and mutter.

TEN TEAMS ...what are they ?
http://www.10-teams.wikispaces.com

They are an idea for peaceful protest against such things as above.
Angliss hospital would be a prime target. Failure to draw attention to abuse in the name of MCism will result in our epitath being 'Said much, did little, died in cultural isolation"

If we speak but don't act, we are PART of the problem, rather than part of the solution :)
Form your group soon.

Imagine. 150 people at a Hospital with signs. Video it, sent to media outlets. Voila social change :)

BD
When I read the title of your new thread, I thought: *Sigh* here we go again :)

But I ended up agreeing with your view about your neighbour's breast feeding experience. ;) I hope her husband refused to leave the room.

I remember when I was breastfeeding my 1 month-old daughter (and I fed my children very discretely when in public so it really was not offensive) at a restaurant I was asked to feed my baby 'on the toilet' because people may be offended.
I think I said something like, "make me" and kept on feeding.

I also agree with you about the ham-sandwich thing. Whether there are Australian or immigrant vegetarians or no-ham eaters we have to cater for everyone.
I don't generally eat ham either- not for religious reasons but because of the intesive pigfarming industry (I do eat free-range ham when available).
I'd never expect a place to serve 'no ham' because of choices I make- perhaps I'd even protest about that myself, even if I don't eat ham.
It would be a good thing if in a protest like this, some wondeful Muslims or vegetarians could take part.
This is what multiculturalism should look like- accepting and standing up for each other's rights even though it may not serve us personally.

We should never pick out 'one' group and serve only the best interest of that group.
Multiculturalism means being able to all respect each other's life style and cultures.

I wouldn't be very eager to form groups to protest immediately though-I'll my own rebellious acts; but I would be willing to do this as a last resort.

For example, when we finished dinner at that restaurant, I deliberately told the waiter we would be booking a table here again in a month WITH my baby.
Had he'd DARED to refuse to re-book us, then it would have been time to gather some breastfeeding mums for some peaceful action.

Your quite right Celivia :) yes..and guess what.. if you wanted some extra man power for your breast-feeding protest..I'D BE THERE !

I had an interesting breast related experience once. At a teenage youth camp in the Yarra valley, we had mixed campers. (no.. not mixedup :).. and a couple who acted as house parents. My 2ic youth leader was about 20 or so, (you know..the hormone age). Well all was going fine, until the wife of the camp parent who has a new baby at the time, let it all hang out (and she had generous boobs) and breast fed her baby in the most noticable manner.. welllll my 2ic got kind of awkward and asked me to request she did it more privately.

Didn't really bother anyone as far as I could see, and neither should it. I'm all for contextualizing breasts for their primary God given purpose.

Now..back to the topic :)

A GREEKs version of multiculturalism. "Wogs rule, Aussies get lost"
This is quite disturbing and I believe illegal, as it suggests hatred towards anglo Australians and praises flag burning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaLM8kh8Mnw&NR

Some LEBANESE Muslims version "Australia is under new management"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPBV3hwxTVY&mode=related&search=

SHEIKH FAIZ MOHAMMED Sydney "Kaffirs are dirty, Jews are pigs"

SERBS and CROATS... war at the tennis.

Bottom line, emphazising difference..diversity.. does NOT produce unity nor harmony. The ONLY white anti migrant stuff I can find on youtube is Cronulla.... a once of thing and a reaction to all the above.

Has anyone experienced Multiculturalism which in reality has become 'cultural imperialism' and outright discrimination against Aussies represented by the Union Jack ?

Please share them with us in a balanced way.

PROTEST is an adventure and provides many conversation opportunities as well as actually shaming some who need it. Be part of the solution :)

Cel, if you had a group, you can protest ur own issues, if they overlap mine, I can join you and vice versa.

Just as an aside, the reason that jews and moslems do not eat ham &
other pig meat is well founded because of parasites. In biblical times they were unable to manage pigs from the animal husbandry viewpoint.
However the Chinese as usual got to work on the problem some 3 thousand
years ago and solved the problem. The information travelled to the west
and farmers in the west have managed pigs sucessfully for at least the
last 2000 years or so.

However the jews and arabs being the "progressive" people they are have
not been able to learn the techniques of animal husbandry.

So it is a practice based on ignorance, not the will of God.

"So it is a practice based on ignorance, not the will of God."

Or just...tradition..

BD:
“I'm all for contextualizing breasts for their primary God given purpose.”
I’m glad you’re not one of those offended people; breastfeeding is good for babies and mothers, I’d hate to think that some women don’t breastfeed because other people may be offended by it!

A little off topic:
However, the size of women’s breasts is not functional. Apes and other mammals do not have breasts as large as human breasts in proportion to their body. Women’s breast could have stayed flattish as well and the function would have still been there.

Evolution made women’s breasts’ stand out by adding fatty tissue to enlarge them because women started walking totally upright and more noticeable breasts were necessary to attract men. In animals that don’t walk upright, males are attracted by the female’s behind and smell.

“A GREEKs version of multiculturalism. "Wogs rule, Aussies get lost"” -I know a Greek family that doesn’t think that at all. They think that Australians are wonderful. Don’t generalise- it’s racist.

“SHEIKH FAIZ MOHAMMED Sydney "Kaffirs are dirty, Jews are pigs"”
Didn’t Mel Gibson say that?

“… emphazising difference..diversity.. does NOT produce unity nor harmony.”
Then why do you emphasise difference?

The clips you can find on youtube don’t really show a true picture of our society.
Does it show the EVERYDAY minor acts of racism committed by the majority of White Australians that are just interweaved in our society?
It’s in workplaces, government- in many aspects of life.
There's a myriad of racism happening that is not shown on youtube but that immigrants still have to deal with.

That was interesting, Bazz.
But Spendocrat is right: we also have to have respect for each other’s traditions. The reason some people don’t eat pork is not that important- the fact is, that they don’t and should be respected. However, it should also be respected by them that some people DO eat pork.

BOAZ_David, I think you’re confusing the silliness and excesses of political correctness - which I agree should be challenged and confronted - with multi-culturalism. Multi-culturalism doesn’t demand that public breast-feeding be banned or that ham sandwiches should be off the menu, or even that ill-informed pastors should be silenced by the courts. It requires respect for people’s different backgrounds and beliefs (ham sandwiches need not be forbidden, but maybe felafels should be on offer too) and non-discriminatory public policy. I t means we get to live in a wonderful, diverse, outward-looking, culturally rich and interesting society.

The basis of our respect for the stranger among us is respect for our common humanity and empathy with the problems of the stranger.

Leviticus 19.33-34 says: "33 When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. 34 The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God." Maybe we should follow the advice.

Yes some Muslims are biggots, far too many in fact, but multi culturism is not yet dead.
Yes it is true our quite mad pollys mine too weight the rights of the majority far too lite as oposed to those who came in a bit later than us.
We should target both the lunatic biggots and our foolish pollys from both sides of the house.
We should prepare for the comeing race and relidgion war both groups are bringing.
But our real hope should lay in those on both sides who beleave multi culturism is not based on seperation and hate.

Bazz is right. The food taboos were all a matter of hygiene originally, and had nothing to do with religion. The Muslims and Jews still haven't woken up to that.

As for multiculturalism, it sucks, as I have said many times. It will be the ruin of Australia and any other country which has allowed its politicians to introduce the suicidal policy. The complacency of the average Australian and the average citizen of other countries is totally to blame.

Only DEMOCRATIC countries have multiculturalism as an offical policy. Yet Australian voters,who could have put a stop to the nonsense before it started, were not interested enough - didn't value democracy enough - to protest and vote the multiculturalists out.

While I admire BD's optimism and his personal committment, I have to say, too late! The damage is done. As long as the average Australian's football team wins; as long as he gets a gutful of beer, can pay the mortage and enjoy all of the material things of life he wants, he doesn't give a stuff what happens the country.

Nine out of ten of these plonkers don't even know the difference between "multicultural" and "multiracial".

Sorry, BD. And don't stick your neck out too far for people who just aren't worth it.

Democracy is on the skids, and we need to get set for outright totalitarianism which will come, and maybe a lot sooner than we think.

People can enjoy their different cultures,however the crucial factor as I've stated many times is language.Language is the glue which binds our culture together.If you cannot enjoy a joke with your neighbour,then suspicion festers,with the possibility of violence.

Communication is the soul of all relationships and without it,we are all destined for destruction.This is why the Muslims should not be allowed to live in their isolated culture of little English and narrow belief systems;because it is a recipe for disaster.

Many in our educated elite only perceive the Muslim culture through the top 5% of their pop with whom they associate with.The vast masses are totally different.

Either the Muslims become intergrated,or they should not be allowed to enter Australia.If you feel like screaming racist,then just dwell on past track records.It is all about attitudes and tolerance,not about race.

Leigh.. point taken.. and that highlights one of our major weaknesses culturally (Anglo) "self satisfaction/she'll be right mate" kind of thing and added to that the "When will THEY do something about that"

I suppose I'm translating my sense of fellowship as a Christian out into our wider communal existence. We have the concept of body life, one body many parts, all working together for the benefit of the whole. But I better not push that barrow TOO hard or I'll be labelling myself a socialist :)

Celivia.. yes, and your point is why I specifically used the indefinite article "a" Greeks view.. but I did not mean that as 'all'.

Your quite right. Not all think that way and I didn't say so mate.

Rhian.. those verses from the Old Testament are glorious.. they show social welfare in the context of a capital based agrarian economy. 'Capitalism with soul' :)

On the issue of Multiculturalism, all I'd say is lets tweak policy so that we encourage integration and assimilation more. I find it ludicrous that Police and Emergency services are expected to accomodate themselves to individual cultural needs rather than expressing our own and others realizing this, and accepting it.

I can just imagine some Bolivian ambulance drivers going through their little culture book to see how they should treat this hapless Aussie who has had an accident......yeah right.

I've been hearing of Muslim workers being given time off to pray in many places. I totally disagree with that. People must know prior to coming that in the industrial world, its a no no, and make their decision based on that fact. Allowing this is cultural suicide not respect for other cultures. If some bright spark comes up with 'My religon requires me to stand on my head for 10 minutes each hour' then by this logic they would have to be accomodated. Plain dumb.

Full marks for tap-dancing, Boaz.

>>Rhian.. those verses from the Old Testament are glorious.. they show social welfare in the context of a capital based agrarian economy. 'Capitalism with soul' :)<<

Your guilty grin (grimace?) gives you away every time. You were responding to Rhian's quote - I assume an accurate one - from Leviticus:

"When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."

What, pray, is the connection between this simple direction (to love your neighbour, as it happens) and a "capital-based agrarian economy"?

Mere obfuscation, I suspect.

If, as it would appear, this is your own particular God that is speaking here, which part of his instruction do you perceive as not applying to you? He even signed it, for goodness' sake!!

If I had the inclination and the patience, I could trawl through your offerings on this thread and pull out many dozens of examples of the basic Boaz "differentiator" being the love-thy-neighbour thing. So why, all of a sudden, do you dissociate yourself from it?

Not a good look, my friend. Have a great day.

from BD

If we speak but don't act, we are PART of the problem, rather than part of the solution :)

Isnt this what this site is about no action and just talk.
most here wouldnt be able to find there way out of a wet paper bag due to all argueing about who should do it and how others have done it but no solution.

I have the solution are you ready yet.
I can and will not i send it out and see what the backlass is.
Government is about doing not rolling over and become as pathetic as some are on this forum.
talk here is really cheap when you have what it takes to stand then you should post but if you just winge and whine like our pollies do as some would be here then p#ss off and let the people get on with the real job of fixing your mess.

swulrich@bigpond.net.au

'evening to all, and to...BOAZ and Leigh -

I couldn't agree with you more. I don't believe multi-culturalism is working in this country, nor do I believe it will ever work.

As I've mentioned and quoted here before, ad nauseam. In the sixties, the British Tory member for Wolverhampton, Mr Enoch POWELL warned the English Parliament that if they continued their current policy of unabated and unchecked immigration,..."the streets of Britain will run red with blood"...!

There's certainly much empirical evidence to support this statement, sadly. It appears however, that our various governments (of both persuasions), have not heeded, nor learnt the sorry lessons from those experienced in the UK.

At the risk of having my head torn off by the learned left, I'm afraid the evidence speaks for itself. For those who vainly try to adhere to the principles of political correctness, I suspect, on this issue at least, the cause is well and truely lost.

Further, any political party of the future, who attempts to substantially broaden immigration, will pay dearly at the polls.

And should any party seek to introduce legislation of a type, calculated to further regulate, and coerce the population, to accept greater immigration, they'll be destined to spend a few years on opposition benches too.

Cheers...osungwu

O Sung Wu,you seem to be of Asian origin.In the light of your origins,how do perceive multi-culturalism to be both a negative for you personally and your broader community?

“And should any party seek to introduce legislation of a type, calculated to further regulate, and coerce the population, to accept greater immigration, they'll be destined to spend a few years on opposition benches too.

Cheers...osungwu”

They don’t have to introduce legislation, osungwu. They just go ahead and do it without a by-your-leave to voters. Both major parties are big immigrationists , and it is now more evident than ever that it doesn’t really matter – apart from a bit of tweaking between them on trivial matters – which party is in government and which is in opposition.

We must, I think, be careful to differentiate between unnecessary immigration if it is harmful as it is now: non-discriminatory immigration; multiculturalism (the real mistake) and multiracialism

Amen Oh sung... and Tappy...

Periclessssss... aah.. so much work 2b done. The ancient Israeli economy was very capitalist. Those who had the money, had the land, and could expand and increase. There were those who worked for the 'owners of capital'. The point I was seeking to make, is that a capitalist economy with a socialist soul is probably the best approach to managing nations. Now that wasn't hard was it ?

Your point about love the alien.. aah.. it is a good one, but have a REALLY close look at the overall context of the Alien. If he was trying to change the religion to paganism he would have got the short shift in no time. Agreed ?
If he tried to marry an Israelite without embracing Yahweh as God, again.. 'out'.

YES.. we must love the alien, but we don't have to put up with his actions which might compromise our own cultural and social situation.
I'm sure the Israelites made it crystal clear to any alien among them that "these are the rules, comply and ur always welcome".
My rants are directed at 2 main issues.

1/ Government Policy
2/ Extremists.

and the underlying assumption (proven I believe) that "radicals drive agenda's"

Can we try to avoid the overused criticism "You hate all Muslims" for the duration of this thread ?

I think that the word "multicultural" is very generalised and can be given all sorts of meanings, depending on whatever agenda you are trying to promote and your degree of personal paranoia.

To me it is simply an expression of social tolerance, nothing more, nothing less.

To see it as some sort of evil agenda meant to destroy a society is fanciful. If any society is so fragile so as to be threatened by a few token gestures, perhaps it's doomed anyway.

As for Lebanese gangs, surely this is more an incarnation of current American "gansta" culture or typical tribalism at work - not part of a world-wide conspiracy to destroy civilisation as we know it.

Good points Wobbles.. and I think more meaningful than you realize.

Here is how I see it. If it was just tolerance.. that would be ok. But the problem comes when well meaning (?) public servants seem to take it upon themselves to go further. (such as the breast feeding woman)
It becomes a problem when our existing culture becomes subservient to alien cultures. That is where I draw the line. (hence the thread)

There was some article in the news a few days back, where some Afghan man was killed I think.. and his wife, who has been here FIFTEEN YEARS could not speak english.

Now.. we don't expect our emegency services to have a translator for every foreign language in Australia available for every call out....do we ? Can you imagine where that could lead ? I'll guarantee not a soul in Australia could speak my wifes languages (Except her 2 sisters and probably 4 others) so why should she be disadvantaged (if she could not speak english) by the lack of an appropriate translator ?

UNITY..not DIVERSITY.
My major point is that rather than funding 'multi' cultural things, all our policies and funding should be in the direction of building cultural and racial bridges, bringing together rather than erecting higher and higher fences between people groups.
Instead of allocating funds for 'ethnic cultural festivals' We should allocate them for 'interracial and intercultural' events.
This could be focused. Croat and Serb communities could obtain benefits for demonstrating a 'cultural harmony day' which has as its focus "We are all Australians".... maybe the Tennis would be good venue :)
Greek and Macedonian communities could do a 'Alexander was not Aussie, but we all are' day :) wooooo now that would cause a fuss.

BREAKDOWN BARRIERS... don't RE-INFORCE THEM.

HILALY FOR PRESIDENT ?

I used to read Jungle Doctor stories to my children. One of them was called 'Big Leapords bite'. It was set in Africa, and this child had discovered an abandoned leapord cub. He brought it home and started to nurture it. When people disovered it they berated him "Boy.. little leapords grow into BIG leapords and big leapords kill".
The story goes on with the stubborn child, the increasingly worried villagers and the defensive parents. Finally of course the Leapord reaches full size, gets a taste of blood and kills and eats the boys father. Moral.. little Leapords grow into BIG Leapords and big Leapords kill.

And now would be Premier Hilaly is BITING Labor in the bum, and kicking Australia in the face. Contesting directly against Iemma in Lakemba and endorsing 2 other "Muslim" candidates in Bankstown and Auburn. Interesting that he is endorsing 'Muslim' candidates. One can only assume he is seeking to advance the interests of "Muslims" against the interests of non Muslims.

So.. another useful contribution to the Multicultural stupidity we have been cursed with.

This videos shows the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlDztjPzvSM

1/ Map of Australia with bullet holes in it, and a Lebanese flag at a beach, and over the Sydney area of the map.
2/ Burning the Australian flag.

The problem is not multi culturism we already are a multi cultured country.
Lets test the overlords of this site and free speach, the problem is biggots within the Muslim comunity.
And mostly from the Lebanese comunity at that, a view you just can not get away from most Australians agree with.
Hope exists in time [ is this the goverments plan] break down in the exsteme views will come from within the comunity its self.
And after the next act of hate such as 9/11 both comunitys ours and the Muslim one will confront this question .
Can we live together?
In my view its not worth the effort if only my side trys.
And if just once a Muslim saying it is wrong does not end that speach saying that we play some part in it?ah it will not happen.

Boaz, like it or not, you are fomenting racial tension.

You are exacerbating the "us and them" mentality with your highly selective news bites - a kind of localised concatenation of Fox News, Oswald Mosley and Tele-evangelism. You rely increasingly upon informal, pervasive, but ultimately infinitely corruptible media such as You-Tube to support your ever more outlandish accusations against your religious enemies.

Yet despite this, you continue to regard your actions as honest, reasonable, patriotic and humanitarian.

Please, take a long, hard and honest look at yourself, your actions and your motivation. Begin to realize that even though you may see your actions as necessary, and your mission to expose the evils of religions other than your own as being divinely guided, they appear to others as the meanderings of a cultural and religious xenophobe.

Your campaign of "ONE NATION,ONE RACE, ONE CULTURE" (your capitals, I remind you) echoes that of "Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Führer", complete with its own internal justification of targetting a group that is "not like us".

You said a little while ago "But apart from Islam, I am vigorously promoting cultural and racial unity." Can you honestly not see the absolute parallel between what you are saying here about Muslims, and what the Third Reich were saying about Jews? You really, honestly, deep-down-in-your-heart cannot see it?

But sadly, I suspect you can, but either you simply don't care or you embrace the comparison... would I be right?

And you still have not commented on my last offering:

"Finally, may I gently remind you of one of Mosley's more infamous utterings:

"We will not tolerate within the State a minority organized against the interests of the State. Jews must either put the interests of Britain before the interests of Jewry or they will be deported from Britain."

Substitute the words "Muslims", "Islam" and "Australia" for "Jews", "Jewry" and "Britain" in the above statement, and you have Boaz-ism, complete and unadorned.

Does this ring any bells Boaz? Or do you see Mosley as a vastly misunderstood person, with everyone's best interests at heart?"

Lekh b'shalom

I usually resist responding to Boazy directly after Pericles has, to avoid a kind of 'tag-team' effect. However, in this instance suffice it to say that Pericles' comment above is so close to my own analysis of Boazy's pernicious activities that I simply have to chime in with hearty agreement.

Have a good look at yourself, Boazy. Have you ever taken Pericles' advice and read about Mosely? If you had, you - what with your legendary capacity for textual analysis and all - must have noticed some disturbing parallels between Moseley's ideology and your own?

Of course, if you haven't you're just being your good old intellectually and morally dishonest self, eh?

With respect to Boazy's somewhat tabloid attention to the facts of a story, it seems decidedly unlikely that Hilaly will stand for election personally. Mind you, at another blog [http://larvatusprodeo.net/2007/01/21/the-honourable-mufti-for-lakemba/#comments] someone wondered whether if he does, would it be for the Festival of Light?

Sounds silly at first, but when you think about it, Hilaly and Fred Nile have more in common with each other than either has with your typical Aussie :)

Clinton is not Australian, can we then ask why she is compared to us? she is the person who will snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory if she leads the Democrates next year.
Fred Nile? no way is he average Aussie ,he drives more away from Christ than he brings.
But BD a racist? are you both blind to the daily hourly insults to our way of life?
The call to murder us?
Do you then subscribe to the view the Australian flag is to be barred from the big day out?
Because its a gang flag? a racist tool?
No christian no beleiver but BD is not as far away from mainstream opinion as you would wish.
Vote for change in 2007.

We've passed the point where multiculturalism is a worthwhile cause. We're seeing more and more immigrants who think view Australia as a place they can divide and claim in the name of their own country.

Response to snake-in-the-grass David BOAZ:

Shame on you.

Misleading the forum with this --> "HAM SANDWICH affair. 87% of Hume shire residents discriminated against by the council, who denied them the opportunity to eat Ham Sangers, so as not to offend the 13% Muslim residents at council functions.

Last year, and you are completely aware that I contacted Hume Council and there is no truth whatsoever to this story.

NO TRUTH WHATSOEVER

Anyone is welcome to ring Hume Council and confirm there is no such policy and never, ever was.

Imagine telling fibs to prove your point.

Pericles... the thing you are missing old son, (Mosely had a piont there if his analysis of Jews was correct....if) is that you basically don't understand the true nature of Islam, and I do.
That might sound a tad arrogant, but I have to say it. Believe it or not, I can see your point, your convenient substitution, yep..I do see it. I suppose I am a little bit reluctant to put much weight on it, as last time I perused the activities of Jews around the world, I cannot for the life of me find examples of inhumanity such as the taking of a gentile baby, beheading it, cooking the corpse and then sending it back on a large dinner plate to the mother, but hey..I DID read about that happening to a Christian baby in Bagdhad, and the many young Christian girls who are deliberately targeted by the Muslims for rape etc.. Sure..thats rather emotive, but also part of the big picture which you are apparently blind to. You could dismiss such things as 'Christian propoganda tripe' but then, you would probably have said that about the 3 teenage girls beheaded in Indonesia by the Muslims.

You see Pericles (and CJ) you possibly don't realize how close to the example of MOhammed are the beheadings of Nick Berg etc. I just cannot see such things being done by Jews. So, if I'm harsh on 'Islam' there are very sound reasons for it.

Conflict ? its unavoidable with or without me.

David Latimer... now that's rather naughty. During that kafuffle I rang Hume council a number of times and even raised an EOC complaint about. The decision was made by the CEO Darryl Treloar. Check that medication mate.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/31/1054177765208.html

Getting closer.

>>Pericles... the thing you are missing old son... is that you basically don't understand the true nature of Islam, and I do. That might sound a tad arrogant...<<

Not arrogant, Boaz. Misguided. Unbalanced. Prejudiced by your religious fanaticism.

OK, maybe arrogant as well.

You *think* you understand "the true nature of Islam", whereas in reality you are unable to judge the quality of any information presented to you on account of it being filtered through the lens of your religious absolutism.

The fact that the same percentage of almost every category of human being you care to select are villainous seems to escape you. Those who describe themselves as "Christian", I should remind you, are not exempt from this statistic either.

You have made a decision, based on your religious convictions, that the members of a different religion are basically unfit to be a part of our society. That's your call - I'm not prepared to argue against you personally on this because I am fundamentally unable to comprehend its Christian basis.

What I do have a problem with is that you have taken it upon yourself to evangelise exclusion for those with whose religion you disagree.

As I have said many many times - and it looks as though I will have to say it many more times before you get a clue - rabble-rousing against a religion you disapprove of is a dangerous path to take. I have tried to put it into a suitable historical context, in which your spiritual forefather made exactly the same mistakes.

Wake up to yourself. Your position, which you see as intellectually correct and socially beneficial, will be exploited by those who have a more... shall we say, aggressive, intent.

And it won't just be egg on your face, it will be blood on your hands.

It has to come to this the card has to hit the table in such debates and it starts a storm every time.
In no way will I backdown from the claim growing biggotry in sections of the Muslim comunity is of great concern.
But what if no God exists?
What if we are our own keeper?
What if the hundreds of different Gods man has, are our own inventions?
Why should I beleave Gods of other people are cute inventions of a simple race but mine is great?
Humanity must either be one or what?
Biggotry exists in ALL RELIDGIONS.
But just now in my country the country of my birth multi culturism and its kind intent alowes true biggotry to exist
Fly any and every flag on Thursday but also fly the Australian one.
It still stands for every one who wants to share our country and lifestyle it is your right to be here and your right to fly your flag but not to Hate or condemn Australia.

Furthermore, Boaz.

You stated:

>>I suppose I am a little bit reluctant to put much weight on it, as last time I perused the activities of Jews around the world, I cannot for the life of me find examples of inhumanity such as the taking of a gentile baby, beheading it, cooking the corpse and then sending it back on a large dinner plate to the mother, but hey..I DID read about that happening to a Christian baby in Bagdhad, and the many young Christian girls who are deliberately targeted by the Muslims for rape... You could dismiss such things as 'Christian propoganda...<<

At least you recognize the possibility of propaganda. But please also consider where it might lead.

The Third Reich churned out masses of propaganda material against the Jews, even recycling the twelfth century blood libel...

"In 1144 an unfounded rumor began in eastern England, that Jews had kidnapped a Christian child, tied him to a cross, stabbed his head to simulate Jesus' crown of thorns, killed him, drained his body completely of blood, and mixed the blood into matzos at time of Passover. The rumor arose from a former Jew, Theobald, who had become a Christian monk. He said that Jewish representatives gathered each year in Narbonne, France. They decided in which city a Christian child would be sacrificed...

Pope Innocent IV ordered a study in 1247 CE. His investigators found that the myth was a Christian invention used to justify persecution of the Jews. At least 4 other popes subsequently vindicated the Jews. However, the accusations, trials and executions continued. In 1817, Czar Alexander I of Russia declared that the blood libel was a myth. Even that did not stop the accusations against Jews in that country." [www.religioustolerance.org]

As I have said before, it is a dangerous path you are treading Boaz. Simply by referring to these stories you are giving them legitimacy, at least in the eyes of those who would exploit your rabble-rousing for their own, even more destructive ends.

Indeed Pericles... your point is not lost on me.

Let me ask you this. Is there any political or social movement which is not prone to such exploitation, hijacking, re-direction ?

I suppose it boils down to the core values of any movement, and how strongly those at it's helm can steer it in terms of those values.
Even so, there has not been an Empire to my knowledge or even political philosophy which has not seen those subsequent to the founder taking it in their own direction.

Any movement is vulnerable because it involved humans.

Conversely, to do nothing..... doesn't lead anywhere. So, perhaps you sense that there are better ways of producing a similiar goal ? i.e. of a harmonious and united Australia ? If you do, then by all means persue them, you have my full support. Its the end goal which matters.

I don't think its possible to be totally immune to 'propoganda'... I had to watch myself all the time in Malaysia, were we did newsletters, and our support depended to a degree on the readers having a sense of 'things happening'.. now.. given that things of a dramatic nature don't happen every day, they tended to be compressed into the single newsletter, which can itself create a false impression. Even when one simply lists things in chronological order without any mal intent.
I once receieved 3 church bulletins in one mail delivery.
#1 Betty SoandSo is Ill..pray for her...
#2 Betty SoandSo is very Ill, prayer urgently for her.
#3 The funeral of Betty SoanSo will be held on Teusday the 15th Nov...

See what I mean ?
We also must consider underlying goals. If ones goal is simply to stir up 'racial hatred' there are much more blatant ways of doing it than how I am.. just check Scumfront or Whiteprides websites.

Highlighting deep rooted social problems by listing video's produced by the culprits..is not propoganda, it is information. If one added a series of racial hatred rants.. it would be propoganda, creating a false impression. Suggesting policy tweaking is not racial hatred.

MOre for Pericles.

[You *think* you understand "the true nature of Islam", whereas in reality you are unable to judge the quality of any information presented to you on account of it being filtered through the lens of your religious absolutism]

Ah..now thats where we definitely differ. Note I said the true nature of 'Islam'...not of 'Muslims'... Muslims will have the full spectrum from moderate, apathetic, cultural to radical and fanatical.
but "Islam"....is one thing. You don't seem to be able to make the connection between its foundation documents, (Quran, Hadith Sunnah) and the community.

What I do is this,-I say "The community will have a range of attitudes in it, but the closer the community comes to true Islam, the greater the danger for non Muslims"

Which of course leads to the question 'Are their forces at work to bring the "Community" closer to true Islam ? and if so, what is the likely outcome ?

Act 1
Enter stage left the "Caliphate Seminar" of Hizb ut Tahrir....and from stage right, my desire to arrange a protest against this thing.

Act 2 Sheikh Faiz rocks up, to the 4000 young people he is supposedly influential to in the Global Islamic Youth Centre, and his DVD series being sold, and minds and hearts are being slowly altered.

Act 3 Sheikh Hilaly doesn't like our Politics so is going to fight us by endorsing Muslim Candidates in 3 seats. The only thing "Muslim" candidates can offer (as opposed to say "Lebanese" candidates) is the advancement of "Islamic" issues.

Are you not detecting just a mild case for concern here ?

Belly...thanx for your contribution. Exactly.. unity, the Aussie flag is a symbol of that and we should be working towards 'on the ground' real unity and not just symbolic

No need to say much because Rhian has already summed up my views on this issue better than I could.

I just like to add that Australia has fallen prey to a far too high level of government control and bureaucracy spinning wildly out of control, with too many government-employed officials living in fear of their own shadow, in case they fail to follow some procedure and, heaven forbids, behave as humans:

We don't need any more of that to counter the undesirable counter-effects of the counter-counter effects of previous counter-counter-counter policies. Instead, I suggest being brave and daring to drop 98% of existing procedures and policies, in favour of common-sense human-to-human relating.

This includes "multiculturalism": I do not support this as a concept and a funded slogan - but I support true multiculturalism as a reality of many people each living their own way of life and tolerating others who live differently.

The problem would not have occured if that nurse did not have authority in the first place to send the husband away, or at least if she did not feel obliged under duress to follow the letter of dictated instructions. On the other hand, the husband should respect the Muslim woman and try to compromize within reason. Those who want a ham sandwich should be able to have it (I am vegetarian), and those who want to pray 5 times a day, including at work, should be able to do it too.

Coercion is based on fear. It is meant to suppress human's evil nature, which it does to some degree, but in fact it suppresses our good and creative nature even more, leaving us in a supposedly safe, but duller and unhappier world. Love on the other hand, takes risks, is willing to be blamed, is unsafe, but is the only way to a worthwhile life.

Up the thread a poster says Lebanese gangs are just a copy of American street gangs!
Its not true but if it was? I am a supporter of the America that once was and will be after Bush is gone.
But gangs that act so deadfully are unwanted in any country, may I point to just the street talk that uses reference to the sexual act with ones mother?
Education may be the reason but nothing can hide the fact such gangs are only part human.
Given the anti white Australian hatred of SOME in our race based gangs I can find no reason to blame others for their actions or to down play those acts.
Do not kid your self my concerns are based on racism clearly its not true.

Damn Belly, you get up early..

Multiculturalism is a very bad idea, because all cultures are based primarily on religious beliefs. If we ‘respect’ all cultures, then we must respect all religious beliefs – even those that demand subservience of women, female circumcision, parental choosing of husband or wife, the denunciation of homosexuality and fornication and adultery as sins punishable by death… How can anyone respect a religion that wants to kill you? Get real!
As Belly wrote: …we should prepare for the coming religious war…
The only acceptable policy for a democracy is “Pluralism” in which each individual is respected for him/herself. In which fanatic parents and religious leaders have not the ‘cultural’ right to force their irrational beliefs on either their children or the rest of the population.
Always it has been religion that has divided and destroyed nations.
Step one: Australia needs a constitution that states categorically that we are a secular nation where religion plays no part in government, education or anything else, and no religion is above the law – not even taxation laws!
Step two. Declare multiculturalism dead, and rewrite all laws to embrace the philosophy of Pluralism.
Step three: Declare that religions may only be practiced by consenting adults in private, making childhood indoctrination of unfounded, irrational beliefs illegal.

Ybgirp - thank you for stating your ideas so boldly.

Claiming that religions kill, is like claiming that swords and guns kill. It is true that over the centuries, religions were used as a pretext for killing and other atrocities, but were the motives truly religious?

If someone wants to kill another and you take away their sword or gun, they will find and use something else - perhaps poison? similarly, if you take away their convenient pretext of religion, they will find another excuse.

Atheism kills as well - see the Soviet Union, especially Stalin who had similar ideas about religion as yours and killed tens of millions. Mao Tse Tung is another example. Nationalism also kills - see Hitler.

Religion is about love, not about hatred. It is about connecting with God, the common good within all of us. Anything contrary to this is an addition, mostly cultural and national, that humans attached to religion over time - not religion itself.

ANY idea can be distorted - it's a specialty of the human mind: just as it was claimed about the Greek King Midas that anything he touched turned into gold, so does any idea that the human mind touches turn into s.h.i.t.

Let us not get lost here most migrants while convinced they are a bit better than us are no problem.
Seen any greek kids wanting to cut your head of?
Granville that name should be forever burnt in our brains remember the outrage about Cronulla?
Was it matched by the concerns about bashed lifegaurds?
Or the follow up bashings?
Granvilli is different Australian born kids of biggoted parrents who are intent on one culture HATE.

Yuyutsu,
I did not claim that religions kill, I pointed out that religions are responsible for bigotry and intolerance.
Stalin replaced the religion of supernatural superstition with the religion of communism. Mao did the same, and Hitler promoted Aryan purity. All three demanded and got blind faith in an unprovable theory – no different from all religions. Hitler was not an atheist and his programmes had the full backing of the Pope, who was hoping to re-create the “Holy Roman Empire.” Nationalism – a blind faith in the superiority of one’s country, is another form of religion and thus dangerous.
Atheism is neither a philosophy nor a recipe for living. Our only universal point of view is that there is no evidence for the existence of god, gods or the supernatural.
It is monotheistic insistence that there is only one way to live, one god to believe in and all else is wrong, that makes humans murderers. The Torah, Bible and Koran are replete with commands to go out and kill every non-believer. They may advocate love – but only towards believers. None of them advocate tolerance. It is silly to say it is not religion that is bad – it is humans. Humans invent religions because they appeal to the gullible and can be used to persecute and gain power.

Apology to BOAZ_David:
On Monday, 22 January 2007 4:12:04 PM, I compained about David BOAZ and the Ham Sandwich myth.

After checking again, further detail was given to me and there is a kernel of truth to this story from 2003. At one time, caterers were given instructions not to include pork at council functions, but the policy was very soon changed so that food was labelled and a variety of different foods are made available.

But this does mean I was wrong and I take back what I said about David BOAZ and apologise for posting it.

Ybgirp,

We first need to get the facts right:

1. Just because dogs have ears and Socrates has ears, does not imply that Socrates is a dog. Similarly, communism, atheism, nationalism and other 'isms, just because they presumably have in common with certain religions (or so-called religions) an idea that one should dictate to others how to live, does not make them religions.

2. Atheism is not the view "that there is no evidence for the existence of god, gods or the supernatural" : that would be Agnosticism - Atheism claims that there certainly is no God.

3. Hitler was known to be an atheist.

4. The Pope did not support Hitler, but compromized out of fear, believing that he would save more lives this way - whether or not he acted correctly is still a controversial issue. Hitler actually made plans to kidnap the Pope.

5. Please show me, if you can, where in the scriptures they command to go out and kill every non-believer.

6. No theory is provable, because all evidence is subject to our fickle mind and senses. Even science only have workable models, which are good until replaced by more accurate ones.

7. Monotheism does not imply that there is only one way to live, nor do different 'isms imply that there is more than one way to live.

8. The belief that "all else is wrong" does not imply being a murderer.

A person who invents a system "because it appeals to the gullible and can be used to persecute and gain power", is not inventing a religion - despite whatever he cynically likes to call it.

The human mind has the power to contaminate everything it comes in contact with - including religions, and having had milenia to do so, no wonder that impurities have penetrated and distorted to one degree or another every current religion: this does not make those impurities the essence of religion. The essence of all religions is connecting and uniting with God, the source of all existence and goodness.

People who need to feel 'united' are weak-kneed sissies.

Words I'd use to describe BOAZ include:

Afraid, insecure, anxious, paranoid, faint-hearted, fearful and terrified.

Words I'd use to describe myself:

Calm, unafraid, unworried and confident.

It's a pathological thing.

I'd link you in with my local mental health service BOAZ, but I'm not your case manager.

Good one Strayan.
Yuyutsu, Religion is a ‘faith’. Faith is believing something even if there is no evidence for it. It doesn’t necessarily require something supernatural to worship. Atheism is the opposite of faith and prescribes no particular behaviour. An atheist simply says I will not believe in a god until you can prove scientifically that such an entity exists. An agnostic is a fence sitter in this regard.
only Christians, keen to distance themselves, call Hitler an atheist.
Read these: Genesis 15:29 the Lord tells Baasha to kill "all of the house of Jeroboam".20:28-30 God assists the Israelites to kill 10,000 Syrians. 1:9-12 Elijah shows that he is "a man of God" by burning 102 men to death. 3:19-25 God instructs the Israelites to destroy the Moabites. (Deu 13:6-10 NRSV)…The Bible says to kill your wife, your daughter, your son, your brother, your friend, etc… if they worship other gods. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the LORD your God…
The difference between Science and religion is that when scientific theories are proved wrong, they are changed. Religions do not change and hang on to two thousand year old superstitions despite scientific proof of their wrongness.
Religion is a contamination of human thinking, not the other way round. The essence of all religions is gaining power.

Ybgirp,

There are indeed "weak agnostics" who sit on the fence. There are also "strong agnostics" who strongly believe that the existence or non-existence of God can never be known.

None of the examples you presented from the bible calls to kill every non-believer. Not that I agree with such injuctions, but all cases call only for the killing of a specific group, and none because they are non-believers (most of the victims believed in God as well, but also in others), but mainly because they worship other gods at the wrong place and pose a temptation for the Jews to do so as well.

Religions have changed and continue to change - but slowly over the centuries.

Faith is not religion, but a component of most religions: it is essentially a practice, a discipline, a technique, of having a certain attitude towards life and living accordingly. It is quite different than a belief, it is not a claim about the physical universe, hence it cannot be refuted by science, and in fact, were science able to prove the "correctness" of a faith, it would do that faith more harm than proving its "incorrectness", because it would reduce the faith into a matter of practicality.

People over the ages have much forgotten what religion is about, and distorted it to the extent that onlookers who take only a superficial look, see only the contaminations and distortions, such as the power-seeking that you mentioned.

Power-seeking is contrary to the essence of religion - any religion. It is not spiritual, but pure materialism: one seeks power only if they believe that they are powerless and helpless by nature, that they are separate from God, that they have no inherent connection with others at the core, and therefore need to dominate them to obtain material gains. That is so contrary to faith!

Well the PM has finally killed off multiculturalism in the Commonwealth administration. Itll be intresting to see wether Mr Rudd garrantees to restore it.

Yuyutsu, what you describe is philosophy. All religions contain some philosophical elements, but only insofar as they assist in the control of subjects.
Garth, I sure hope not.

Then there is that current affair story about a women who is allergic to peanuts and has to fly in her job - so she wants the airline to bane all peanut products on her flights. Her allergy is HER problem and represents about .001% of the population. It's a case of minority groups again trying to highjack the rest of us. Current Affair is off my list of credable stories - it's just sensationalistic crap.

BD once again this once but never to be again christian sides with you, so many who post here do no wish to see the truth.
In my view its not multi culturism that we should fear, the word anoys me , its not needed.
I do not opose any one haveing two cultures and nore do most, one culture has sections who denie me my culture.
That culture is unwanted in that racist form, and its questioning of your right to your relidgion.
Australians in growing numbers are concerned about a host of things such as the Granville vidio.
And the Mufti is not the uneducated fool he would have us beleive, fool maybe but biggot on a mission you can bank on it.
To those who opose our freedom to think as we wish remember self confedence is a great thing but some are to easly convinced only they are right.

Dear David Latimer.. apology accepted.. I've been down that track myself a few times.. I've been incorrect and have had to put it right..its good for all our souls.

PRONOUNCEMENT. 'MultiCulturalism' as government policy is now 'dead' !

John Howard made this point by re-naming

"The Dept of Immigration and MultiCultural Affairs"
to be
"The Dept of Immigration and CITIZENSHIP"

And since that moment, probably few have been as embracing of non Anglo Australians as myself. I looked at the various cultural exhibitions in prep for Australia day in Melb, and was joyful over it all. I no longer feel threatened by them. So much, from just a 'word'.

I joined about 4000 others who were in Festival Hall for a unity prayer meeting held by Catch the Fire. On the way in there was a little group of atheists, holding up "God is a Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, needless to say we took to them with our large King James's and beat them into submission....then made them kiss the flag..... err.. not :)

What a thrill. Praise and worship in a packed stadium, all ethnicities, all one... in Christ, and with love for our nation.

Suddenly, there was a voice from the crowd.. shouting.. but it turned out to be an Indigenous bloke..we thought he was a protester..
so what did he have to say ? He called out loudly "I am an Indigenous pastor from Cairns, and I stand with you".. up he went to the platform, embraced Danny Naliah, who explained that he had met the Pastor in Cairns once. What a meaninful time.

The circle complete... many ethnicities, and Indigenous Aussies, even an Indigenous flag ! But mostly Aussie flags.

Touching beyond my wildest dreams, and thus was fulfilled....

[You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.] Gal 3:26

Hi Belly... "never to be again" ? I can only point you to the Jesus of Scripture. I don't know why you would have 'once been' and now not, but the usual reasons are some kind of personal crisis connected with the Church, or unanswered prayer, (i.e. the answer was no rather than yes) but its not for me to speculate too deeply on that about you. I can only say that the Lord does care, and please don't judge Him by any unkindness of those of his people you know or knew.

Strayan.. I see where ur coming from. But your comment is lacking in depth mate. I suppose you would have called the prophets of the Old Testament 'insecure, afraid' etc etc...when they ripped into the kings of the day about injustice and impending divine punishment in the form of invasion by pagans.

Its just remotely possible, that I have a very good handle on the things I'm commenting on, and that you do not. To resolve such a predicament, we would have to have a long personal discussion and make reference to much material.

Clearly we can't do that. So, that leaves us with analysis of each others posts here.
All I can suggest is that you keep digging.. looking for connections between modern behavior and their root in Islamic history and law. Its all there mate, for seeing eyes to view.

Just one example. "Islam is a religion of peace" is probably one of the most deceptive statements around today. I can show you clearly that the early Muslims did not in the least interpret the Quran like that. So, I'm also 'confident' contrary to your suggestion of my need for mental health assistance.

Ybgirp,

The difference between philosophy and religion is that the former is an intellectual exercise while the later is a living practice. The former, at best, gives one clarity of understanding and direction. The later, at best, unites one with God (or call it any other name you like - Nature, Universe, Otherness, Truth, Love, etc.). An analogy would be sitting for a driving-theory test as opposed to actually driving to your destiny.

Of course, to the extent that philosophy or religion are contaminated by a desire to control, they fail to achieve their purpose and produce hurdles to those who study or practice, until such time that they are able to sort the essential good from the surrounding contamination.

Strictly speaking, a religion does not require a philosophy, but it is true that most religions include a philosophy, because it is one effective way to encourage those who follow the religion to persevere with the religious practices even when it gets to be tough.