Some material I found on Men's Sheds and comments by Cornflower got me thinking that it might be useful to have some discussion about positive stuff being done to support men.

As a starting point the Australian Men's Sheds Association claims to be the largest men's support organisation in Australia.

http://www.mensshed.org/page7859/Home.aspx

Some research material on the role they play can be found at http://www.ncver.edu.au/research/proj/nr5011.pdf

There are also a number of Men's rights type organisations around mostly focussed around issues resulting from family breakdown. eg http://www.mensrights.com.au/ "A National, Non-Profit Organisation Providing a Better Outcome for Men and their Families" Such groups are often attacked very strongly by those with a focus on womens rights but for many they provide support when there is no-one else during a very difficult time.

"XY is a website focused on men, masculinities, and gender politics. XY is a space for the exploration of issues of gender and sexuality, the daily issues of men’s and women’s lives, and practical discussion of personal and social change." http://www.xyonline.net/
Michael Flood has had a heavy involvement. Some of their values are one's I share, others not so much.

All very different approaches and targeting different issues. I'm interested to see what other resources people are aware of and to see some constructive discussion on how the strengths of each can be better used and the weaknesses addressed.

R0bert

Wonderful idea RObert.

The Men's Sheds has been really useful in rural Australia to assist those who experience depression due to difficulties in the agricultural sector and isolation (and other reasons).

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?link_id=59.1185

Men and boys have different pressures and expectations than women including much confusion over what it means to be a man or how one might define masculinity.

Mens sheds seem to be working well for men to connect and talk with others. A problem talked about is a problem shared and all power to those involved in the mens sheds program.

Foundation 49 - Mens Health
http://www.49.com.au/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Mens Health Zone: "...an initiative specifically targeted to men so they can see where they measure up on the scorecard of good health and, if needed, make the right changes to live healthier lives. MHN HealthZone was created to address the deteriorating health of men caused by poor health education, lack of awareness and culturally induced behavior patterns. This has caused a silent health crisis, whereby men face higher mortality rates than women for 9 of the 10 leading causes of death in addition to a shorter life span."
http://www.menshealthnetwork.org/healthzone/

Men's Health Network:

http://www.menshealthnetwork.org/

Men's Health Month (June) Information:
http://www.menshealthmonth.org/
and June 14-20 is Men's Health Week.
http://www.prostatehealthguide.com/
http://www.menshealthweek.com.au/event-listing.php

Prostate Cancer Foundation:
http://www.prostate.org.au/articleLive/

Counselling online for Drug and Alcohol issues:
http://www.counsellingonline.org.au/en/how/faq.aspx

Men's page on the Better Health Channel:

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Mens_health_theme_page?OpenDocument

Men's Health Information and Resource Centre (MHIRC: NSW Health):
http://menshealth.uws.edu.au/MHIRC/Home.html

Yes RObert, I fully support all these initiatives to support men, because we all have male relatives and friends who are having a hard time of it.

I especially like the men's health initiatives Pynchme mentioned above.
Many men are often too 'tough' to admit they are having physical problems- especially if that problem involves the waterworks or may have to involve a check of the bowel :D.

In W.A. we have a group called MATES in a little town called Busselton in our Southwest. This group of men have won community awards and grants for their work:
http://www.yellowpages.com.au/wa/busselton/mates-mens-support-group-busselton-13474729-listing.html

Like many areas in Australia, the Southwest has domestic violence issues that affect men, women and children of their community.
MATES staff give refuge to the men involved in domestic disputes, and give them a place to stay to cool down, as well as counselling and anger management courses.
They are doing something positive for the whole community.

pelican, Pynchme and Suzie thank's for the additional links.

I will try and look through some of that over the weekend.

R0bert

R0bert

I had already posted the following link on another thread, before seeing your topic.

I hope you find it helpful.

http://www.alternet.org/story/147105/shame-o-phobia%3A_why_men_fear_therapy?page=entirehttp://www.alternet.org/story/147105/shame-o-phobia%3A_why_men_fear_therapy?page=entire

Severin that's an excellent piece.

I'd been pondering comments by Michael Flood in one of the pieces written for XY Online http://www.xyonline.net/content/pro-feminist-publishing-delights-and-dilemmas "that pro-feminist men and magazines such as XY sometimes have been too focused on the negative without appropriate qualification or context" which seems to fit with with some of the point's made in the piece you referenced.

I've been pondering the hostility between the men's movement and women's movement when often the real goal's don't seem that far apart even if the understanding of cause differs and how some of those divides can be bridged (it appears that Flood has spent some time on that as well). The attacks by some on feminism in it's entirity do nothing to soften attitudes nor do the attacks on the men's movement by some women (or by Flood for that matter). The comments made in the article you referenced are ones we can all learn from.

Thinking about the example of the handbag from the article has me thinking about where I'm at on some of that stuff. I think a transitional point for me came many years ago when the church I was involved in had Rev John Smith (http://www.concernaustralia.org.au/johnsmith/) up to speak to us and do some stuff with the youth group. I can't recall the detail of what he said but it challenged some of the unhealthier aspects of masculine conformity in a caring manner.

In particular for me I think I had my first adult man hug from John. One person in the right place at the right time willing to care can make a difference.

R0bert

Severin, you've got to be kidding.

Bring us your handbag, & I'll dance around the CBD of any city you like, with it, all day, if it will help stop you falling for this bull dust.

The reason men don't go for all that rubbish your link produces, is that our BS detectors are far to highly tuned to fall for such stuff.

I'll bet you read all those "How To" books, like how to make a million before next week, be more popular, successful, positive & all the others.

Have you noticed that those who do fall for this stuff, don't, ever become what ever it was.

For heavens sake, go buy some roller skates, a surf board or even a motor bike. They may get you out of the house, & keep you too busy to continue to gaze at your navel, all day.

Dear RObert,

We should all support Men's Sheds for the
excellent work that they do in dealing with
health and other issues ranging from isolation,
loneliness and of course depression in both the
urban and rural regions of this country.

You may find the following website of some use:

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/185_08_161006/gre11027_fm.html

Men's health and wellbeing: taking up the challenge in Australia.

Hasbeen did you read the article?

If so what bothers you so much?

Some men are in real crisis, male suicide rates should tell that story strongly enough. Others have really miserable lives and no sense that anyone cares and no idea how to change it.

R0bert

Yes RObert, I got to page 3, but had to stop there, before so much BS made me throw up.

It is this type of rubish that gets men into trouble. Get them confused with this rubbish, & they will never find their way out.

Yes, the men's shed movement could help, as it will help many find some companionship, which they lack. But stop short of all the mumbo jumbo please, it helps no one except those who sprout the stuff, & get paid for it.

If that's where our society is heading it's too late for us. To be buried in that slime would make me want to slit my wrists.

Hasbeen after the reading I've been doing this week my BS threshold is probably at an all time high.

I dated a psychologist for a while which gave me a better insight into the value of therapy for some people than I would otherwise have had.

What bothered you specifically? Was it the idea of the power of shame, the value of therapy, both or something else?

In particular I appreciated that the author recognised how unfriendly to men a lot of counseling situations are and that the required way's of communicating are often very female orientated.

I think the Sheds would be great for a lot of people but unless the organisers are really good there will probably always be gaps for some people who need real support.

R0bert

The mumbo jumbo is really a long winded way of saying just what you did Hasbeen ie. companionship, support and friendship are equally important to women and men.

Dear RObert,

You might enjoy this:

Billy Connolly, in his book, "Journey To The Edge of
The World."

says:

"I love the camaraderie of men, and I miss the
people that I've had it with in the past. I miss
my welder friends; I miss my cigar store friends,
I miss my army friends. There is pleasure in
men's company, a real manly thing that a lot of men
miss out on. For some reason, men keeping the
company of men is frowned upon by bullies (male and
female) who don't know what it is ...

People assume when we are in men's company that we talk
about sex all the time, which is the most ludicrous
thing I've ever heard. We talk about all sorts of
wonderful things - politics and life in general.
Unlike women, men tend not to speak about their feelings,
but they do have other problems to deal with ... like
matters of the soul, or how not to be humiliated or
belittled. Men don't want to be fired, or left out or
have promotions bypass them. They have status problems
and worry about their position in society, in the family,
at work. Talking about that gives rise to all sorts of
highlights of my life that have happened in male
company roaring with laughter, deeply moved or
listening to somebody talking about the death of a parent
in a way he wouldn't open up with a woman.

Men are a
deeply misunderstood species, and the situation doesn't seem
to be getting any better because we have enemies within ...
especially in the media who perpetuate pish about men
and a stereotype of them which is untrue...

The last time I was in Vancouver my favourite smoke shop,
the Havana Room, had to close down. We were no longer
allowed to smoke in the most beautifully ventilated
place in the middle of a cigar store. How anyone could
wonder by and accidentally inhale this smoke defies
gravity never mind logic. In the same week they opened
a place where you can go and fix heroin."

Foxy, that quote from Billy Connelly was wonderful! He is absolutely my most favourite comedian.

He does tend to bring up men's problems even in his comedy routines.
I have never recovered from his amazingly funny skit about the time he went to have his prostate checked, and another time he went to have a colonoscopy!
I am sure he encouraged other men to go and have these tests just because he did!

RObert, another suggestion I have for men to seek out help for either physical or mental health problems is to ask at their local GP surgery for a GP who specializes in, or has a special interest, in male health problems.

I found such a GP at our practice and my husband has seen him ever since. This GP ensures my husband has every test imaginable every year!

Interesting topic. From what I've heard about "Men's sheds" they are a worthy initiative for those men who need them. Personally, I prefer my own shed.

However, I spend plenty of time with men - at least, as much as I want. Admittedly, it's either at the pub or fishing, camping etc. But all of those venues allow for a vast array of conversations, a la Billy Connolly's list I guess. I've discussed all sorts of stuff with mates around the campfire with a few beers etc. We only do it because it's therapeutic, of course.

I started to read the 'Shame-o-Phobia' article, and while it didn't provoke quite the reaction in me that it did with Hasbeen, I also found it a bit of a wank. Frankly, if some guy has a personal crisis about carrying his partner's handbag across a plaza, I think it's indicative of an unusually fragile sexuality, to the point of pathology.

While I guess that's the point of the article, I don't think most men are quite that silly. However, it's also generally true that many men have been socialised to repress their feelings and have relative difficulty in expressing them.

Speaking of which - Hasbeen, you seem a bit down at the moment, particularly with respect to women. Perhaps you need a man-hug?

Or a single malt on the rocks... or both :D

Thanks for the thought CJ.

I've been struggling with an upgrade to the old Triumph TR8 I share with my son, at least when he comes home. He decided it needed another 100BHP upgrade to the injection system, & the manifolding.

The main problem is that none of the old stuff works with the new, & this modern stuff on my old 1979 car is almost beyond me. A bit of a steep learning curve for an old bloke. Of course he left it for me to install, & tune.

That was bad enough, then my mum died last week. She was 99, & starting to have a fair bit of pain, so I don't think she minded much, but I did. She used to love going for long slow drives in the country, with the top down. Unfortunately, the last couple had to be short ones, to avoid stressing her.

All in all, it has not been a happy couple of weeks. Right now, most of the things which would be a happy distraction, are becoming more of a chore.

Hi Hasbeen. So sorry to hear about your Mum - you've mentioned her here a few times. I lost mine a few years ago, so I have some idea how you must be feeling.

Still, 99's a pretty good run, eh? I'll have a scotch for her, and one for you too :)

P.S. I used to have a wonderful old (1973?) Triumph 2500 saloon. Not a sports machine like the TR8, but a beautiful motor car to drive. Maybe your son might find time to come home and finish the upgrade?

Cheers mate.

Hasbeen,

I am very sorry to hear of your loss. It must be absolutely devastating to finally lose a Mother who has been your nearest and dearest for so many years.

You must take it easy and take care of yourself, it is one day at a time for a long time and I sincerely hope that you have people close to you who can support you as you would support them.

A Poem

Now that I am gone,
remember me with smiles and laughter.
And if you need to cry,
cry with your brother or sister
who walks in grief beside you.
And when you need me,
put your arms around anyone
and give to them what you need to give to me.
There are so many who need so much.
I want to leave you something -
something much better than words or sounds.
Look for me in the people I've known
or helped in some special way.
Let me live in your heart
as well as in your mind.
You can love me most
by letting your love reach out to our loved ones,
by embracing them and living in their love.
Love does not die, people do.
So, when all that's left of me is love,
give me away as best you can.

~ Author unknown

Years after my wonderful father died I still find myself reaching for the phone to call him. He lives on in the love of nature that he bestowed on me and my mind turns to him when I see the sunlight beams of morning and the twinkling stars at night.

I am sure she was as proud of you as you are of her.

Your memories will be strong and everlasting. Travel well, it is one day at a time.

Worth thinking about:

"Abstract

- The lack of an evidence base for formulating men’s health policies means existing programs and practices for men are influenced by prevailing cultural norms concerning men or habitual health service attitudes towards them.

- Factors impeding the development of an effective health policy for men include a preoccupation with limited clinical perspectives (an emphasis on the prostate and erectile dysfunction) and a common assumption that all health problems in men are a result of 'masculinity' and 'men behaving badly'.

- Viewing men’s health in terms of gender and health and the socially constructed differences between men and women is important, but does not provide all the perspectives required for meeting men’s health needs.

- A 'social determinants of health' approach to men’s health would help Australia and Australian medical practitioners move away from policies and practices that perpetuate negative views of men and ignore the complexity of their health problems. The result would be a more evidence-based approach to men’s health policy, and the likelihood of improved health outcomes."

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/185_08_161006/mac10104_fm.html

Hi CJ, I have a soft spot for the Triumph saloons. You might like this tale from back then. One of the earlier ones, the 2000 got me a banner headline in the Sydney Morning Herald in 64, or 65, I can't remember which now.

I was driving a Hillamn Imp, in the Bathurst 500, [miles back then], & was complaining in the Castrol tent, after practice that the poor little thing could not get over 78 miles/hour down conrod straight. A bit slower than the 145 MPH I was used to in my Brabham. I could not even keep up with the faster cars long enough to "catch a tow".

Max Stewart, a mate I raced Forumlar 2s against, was the Triumph dealer from Orange & was driving a Triumph 2000 in the race. He'd put it on the front row, so it was pretty quick. He must have heard me complaining, but said nothing.

In the race this Triumph 2000 passed me at the top of conrod straight, pulled across in front of me, & slowed to my speed. It took a couple of seconds to realise it was Max, & he was setting up to "give me a tow" [slipstream] down the straight.

He accelerated slowly, allowing me to keep up, & by the flying 1/8Th, where speed was measured, we were doing 107 MPH.

The headline next day was Imp does 107 MPH at Bathurst. I often wondered how many people rushed off & bought one of these flying Imps, & how disappointed they must have been at their top speed, about 30MPH slower than expected.

Of course we, [all Ozies] were superior specimens back then. We must have been, as the law allowed us to drive at any speed we deemed safe. Many Ozies cruised from Sydney to Melbourne or Brisbane, averaging 70, or even 80 miles/hour, & did not have any more accidents than folks do today.

Perhaps some of these lonely men should join a racing pit crew , even if all they did was polish the car. They'd have fun, I'm sure.

Thanks Cornflower. Mum lived in a granny flat, next to my home, for 22 years, after dad died.

Even though she spent the last couple of months in a nursing home near by, I still find myself walking down to her place, to see if she would like a cup of tea, or something. Happens 3 or 4 times a day, which doesn't help much.

Even though dads been gone that long, I still think, quite often, how would dad do this? He was a young man during the depression, & learnt how to do just about everything, but drive that is. He used to frighten me when he even got somewhere near a car.

It's a good thing mum never learnt how to drive, or she could never have traveled with him.

Hasbeen, I was sorry to read about your mum.
My condolences.
How wonderful that you had her with you for so long.
Look after yourself.

Suze.

Hasbeen I wish you all the best through this.

You are probably spot on about pit crews, I've never done that but when circumstances permit I try and be part of an interest group. Thankfully my son is old enough now that has become practical again.

I've got my own shed and would not willingly give it up for occasional supervised access to a communal shed. It's amazing the stresses which can shift to a different place through the act of transforming a chunk of aluminum into a useful part on the lathe. Sheer bliss.

R0bert

Dear Hasbeen,

Please accept my deepest sympathy at the loss
of your mother.

"Eternal rest grant to them, O Lord.
And let perpetual light shine on them.
May they rest in peace. Amen."

I have two elderly mothers that I'm currently
looking after. My mother who's in her eighties,
and my mother-in-law who's in her nineties.
I'm making the most of my time with them, as
I know I could lose them at any time.

Stay strong, and the best thing that you can do
for your mother is to live your life well.

My prayers are with you.

R0bert

Thank you for taking the time to read and consider the article. I do not think it applies to all men (CJ Morgan) no one thing can. But for some I think it is relevant.

Hasbeen

I am sorry to hear of your loss. My own mother is slowly dying by degrees - a painful process.

I understand that introspection is not your 'thing'. However, I wish you would stop with the personal slights - you know full well I have a motorcycle licence.

You may enjoy this Australian based web-site. I receive a different newsletter every day.

http://www.bikeexif.com/

I find it difficult to have a favourite bike - it is more a case of what I don't like, for example over-customised, covered in stripes or decals, poncy looking machines.

Hi Hasbeen - great story about the Hillman and the Triumph. I take your point about speed... the fastest I ever got mine up to in my reckless youth was about 160km/h on a good road. Of course I don't do anything like that now in my dotage.

I had a Hillman Hunter for a couple of years too - another great car that I went to outrageous places with. Once we took it over the top of the Barrington Tops after turning down the wrong logging track, 3 kids in the back and surfboard on the roof. We only bogged it twice, dug it out after laying bark in the ruts. Ah, the good old days...

I like the pit crew idea. Take care - I enjoyed the scotch ;)

Hugs Hasbeen. Take care of you and yours.
My hubby is into cars, mainly Fords and it gives him great joy (not that I always understand it - but that is cool). My mother passed away recently and we are still feeling the effects often I catch myself remembering her at the oddest times, like when walking past a garden and seeing a flower or tree she loved or picking up a book she gave me.

You were close to your mum and have often mentioned her here, I am sure you have many fond memories of your mother that you will treasure always.

Severin

We had a Bonnie and a Norton on the farm. These bikes had been restored after speedway use, long before. Fearsome, thundering, living, breathing machines with a fuel/oil smell rarely encountered now. I managed an unintentional Evel Knievel sideways over an earth dam wall. Got better distance than the bike and was hurt much more too. Cause was a 'temporary' farm repair of a brake cable. After that and my seeming inability to control the bikes on gravel, they were sold. Shucks, spoil sports, Birmingham rocks.

RObert,

It would be a shame if the excellent points raised in this thread couldn't be continued. I was quite taken by this comment, to take an example:

"Factors impeding the development of an effective health policy for men include a preoccupation with limited clinical perspectives (an emphasis on the prostate and erectile dysfunction) and a common assumption that all health problems in men are a result of 'masculinity' and 'men behaving badly'."

That last line in particular calls into question some of the assumptions that wrongly drive the debate. It seems that many of us, including me, regularly boob by getting the bull by the tit so to speak, by blaming 'masculinity' for all ills, physical and otherwise. Again, should the advancement of men be restricted to discussion of health issues and the negative effect on women of some men?

I have never been able to understand bike riders. They are a marvellous bit of machinery, but it appears to hurt too much, when you fall off.

Then they have funny ways. One mate, who was up touching the very top, racing in the days of 2 cylinder 4 strokes, before the Jap fantastics 4 cylinder 2 strokes shut the old British stuff out, was a prime example.

Those things were bolted together with large bolts, better to avoid damage to the alloys used back then. Ron spent almost 3 months drilling a large hole in the head of each bolt, & a smaller hole deep into the threaded part of the bolt, to reduce the weight of each.

He was very proud at the end of all this work, when the bike weighed 11 pounds less than before he started.

We all thought it was very funny. With a few less beers, & a lot less pies, Ron could have taken 16 to 20 pounds off himself, much more easily.

Still, it sure got him out into the shed.

There was no need to lighten the bikes I had access to, they revved hard and quickly too.

As for sheds, well yes I had the misfortune to have an accident with one of them as well when I was too careful going in to park the bike and the damned thing slipped on the clay and pinned my foot (missed the really hot bits). Big bikes, plenty of power and wind in the hair stuff, sorely missed, but would never let my offspring buy one. Not good on the roads these days.

Back to the subject, it appears you are not wrong to doubt the direction being taken by sociologists and sundry other critics of 'masculinity'. Had a look through any of the links where real doctors are commenting?

I don't agree with you Cornflower- many GPs would gladly deal with all the health issues men can give them, if only they would front up at the surgery with their problems!

Sure, there tends to be a focus on male disorders like prostate and erectile dysfunctions, but aren't these issues very important to most men?
The problems with peeing or how well they perform in the bedroom seem fairly common problems to me.

Most GPs are men too (although female GPs are catching up), so I really don't see any conspiracy to mainly deal with female complaints, as some posters have insinuated.

Nowadays, most modern men seem more able to deal with telling their GP their problems than ever before.

It is often up to their mates or their female relatives to encourage them to seek regular medical help.

No-one is suggesting a conspiracy, those were doctors commenting on men's health and the article, Shifting paradigms: a social-determinants approach to solving problems in men’s health policy and practice, is well-referenced. The author is John J Macdonald, Foundation Chair in Primary Health Care and Co-Director,
Men's Health Information and Resource Centre, University of Western Sydney, Sydney, NSW.

It is a link given by someone else and it is an interesting read. It certainly challenges some of the home-spun wisdom often seen on OLO for a start. Here is the link for those who missed it:

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/185_08_161006/mac10104_fm.html

The author is asking for an evidence based approach and who could criticise that? Good to see that research is being done.

University of Adelaide study:

"It is commonly held that men delay help seeking because they are ignorant about and disinterested in their health. However, this discussion has not been informed by men's lay perspectives, which have remained almost entirely absent from scholarship relating to men's help seeking practices."

"We show that the men in our study were actively engaged in the self-monitoring of their health. We suggest that these findings offer an alternative approach for understanding how we can promote men's interaction with health services."

from "It's sort of like being a detective": understanding how Australian men self-monitor their health prior to seeking help.

Smith JA, Braunack-Mayer A, Wittert G, Warin M.
BMC Health Serv Res. 2008 Mar 14;8:56.

Cornflower that's for that link and making a point of those comments.
A good piece.

I've never quite understood the reluctance to go to the doctor but when I went last week it was pointed out to me that I'd not been for about 12 months. There is some stuff about appointment times which are only flexible from the doctors side and the reading material in the waiting room which bug me (but I can always take my own book) but not enough to be a reason not to go.

I don't go to the dentist enough, I really don't like being lectured about flossing and as far as I can tell I'm unlikely to maintain a long term change in my flossing habit's regardless of how good it is for me.

At one stage my employer used to run some programs around health - skin scan's, general health reviews etc which were great and seemed to get high levels of male participation. They seem to have been dropped for several years.

R0bert

Robert

Thank you.

What I am not clear on at this stage is why initiatives like Men's Sheds are so limited in application. I asked a similar question about PCYCs elsewhere for the same reason, after registering shock at finding out that PCYCs were self-funding.

It is the squeaky wheel perhaps and men's health and welfare do not get the funding in the first place to make a fist of lobbying government. Then again, old people are probably in a similar position.

I spotted a flyer for another resource today

http://livingwell.org.au/

"LivingWell is a Queensland resource which offers a range of services specifically designed to assist men who have experienced childhood sexual abuse or sexual assault, their partners, friends and family and service providers. If you or someone you know has experienced sexual abuse as a child, or adult, please know that you are not alone. Support and assistance is available."

It looks like a great resource (again not for everyone).

R0bert

That is a great resource R0bert. Thanks for the link.

While I understand what you're saying, that "it's not for everyone"; I hope that everyone takes the trouble to read that site to at least be well informed about the issues it addresses.