Now the debts and GFC is the fault of unionists, socialists, public servants and...

Al get real. What about the greed of capitalist bankers. The GFC was a result of the failure of regulation of the big banks, so in that sense it was a failure of governments to ensure enough checks and balances in the system, but really your thinking is too bizarre to place the blame at the feet of unionists and public servants. Governmetns have always been a bit scared by the big end of town - they are a powerful lobby group. I wish you would expend some of your energy on highlighting the greed and exploitation factors on that side of business rather than abrogating responsibility to the little bloke all the time.

The US is not a socialist regime - yet they suffered the worst of the GFC.

Al
I can't help thinking, maybe unfairly, that either you have vested economic interests yourself that are bolstered by the worst side of capitalism (capitalism is not perfect) or your thinking is a bit bizarre.

Capitalism is the best system we have in an imperfect world but it is not without its faults, and you would have to be blind freddy if you cannot see capitalism works at its best with some attention to social as well as economic capital - hence the need for some regulation and for some spheres of society to be removed from the hands of the private sector.

That is not socialism but common sense.

Pelly.. I am real...

You are focusing on a different problem.

Let's list them and separate them.

1/ GFC .. caused by greedy_capitalist_bankers. Agreed.

and.

2/ Unsustainable Pensions and massive debt_Overspending... caused by greedy socialist Unions. Agree?

Even without the short term or narrow time window of the GFC, there were warnings going out loud and clear in 2008 that "These pensions are not sustainable" (Glenn Beck)

But these pensions are just one aspect...the whole Union movement can only survive by promising "more" and "better"..if it stops doing that.. the greedy self pitying workers will not elect them to office again.

Sad..but true.

Greece was a basket case long before the GFC and SPAIN was not far behind. Hungary is close and who knows who else is in the pen?

Pelly.. today I saw some most disturbing news.

An FBI agent who successfully infiltrated the Weather Underground communist movement in the USA... revealed (in 1981) the plans of that group.
-They plan to take over. (we knew that)
-They plan to 're-educate' all capitalists to the new way.
-Those not able to be re-educated, are to be killed
-They estimated they would have to kill 25,000,000 people.

WILLIAM AYERS was a member of that group.. a leader..but now ?

a) Ayers was asked in a January 2004 interview, "How do you feel about what you did? (Bombing_campaign) Would you do it again under similar circumstances?" He replied:[37] "I've thought about this a lot. Being almost 60, it's impossible to not have lots and lots of regrets about lots and lots of things, but the question of did we do something that was horrendous, awful? ... I don't think so. I think what we did was to respond to a situation that was unconscionable."

b) He writes childrens comics...

Ayers is currently a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, College of Education. His interests include teaching for social justice, urban educational reform, narrative and interpretive research, children in trouble with the law, and related issues.

Are they INSANE ? This is Mr "we might have to kill 25,000,000 people.!"

Al
Do you really think we would be better off without a pension scheme or some level of social security.

There are far worse money pits than pensions, which are an essential part of a civilised society and paid for by taxes and employer contributions. I have seen far more waste and rorts in other areas where there is little 'real' accountability particularly in certain politically sensitive areas.

As for Ayers, he may have been a communist in his youth but most of us have had dumb thoughts in our youth. Did Ayers actually kill anyone? I am certainly not going to judge him now as a sixty year old who has grown up and if he has paid for his crimes (I don't know much about him other than the bit from WIKI).

As for the list:

They plan to take over. (we knew that)
-They plan to 're-educate' all capitalists to the new way.
-Those not able to be re-educated, are to be killed
-They estimated they would have to kill 25,000,000 people

Yes it is typical of all radical movements whether they be facist or communist. It is similar to the superiority complex of the Colonial British Empire. Democratic capitalist nations despite talk of freedom and democracy are quite comfortable entering into wars where there is an economic benefit, but ignoring the atrocities where there is no economic benefit.

Unions have not always behaved well, like any organisation, they have been guilty of corruption, illegal activity and even murder. They have also done a lot of good to ensure workers are not exploited and that child labour was eradicated etc.

There is certainly a case for more checks and balances and for greater transparency and yes... that word again...governance.

I am all for exposing corruption Al, but it has to be done with honesty without making excuses for one or the other side of politics. The facts are what counts, not the rhetoric.

Interesting bit about social security here:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/8e72c4526a94aaedca2569de00296978!opendocument

Pericles..<<Where is the money now,/that has been stolen from us?>>..in art/in realestate...in assets/in gold/silver/in mines/business/stoks/bonds...its not rocket science

see/our promise to pay/creates credit/creates the funds...then its spent...the big problem/being,,our loans/credit applications...to the bankers..create's...[allows them to create the credit/money]...but the intrest/ursury...that needs to be made/by others defaulting

our/loan/applications..become/bundled securities...again on sold/into pension funds...as AAA/securities...the scam is huge..but if your taking some cream/on the way..you got hard assets[in hand]..when others default...as they surely shall[as soon as govt/stops bailing out the bankers]

<<In whose bank account?>>becomes superflourious/spurilous..remember..its all book credit...our loan/creates..an entry/that simply disappears..if/it ever gets paid-off

BUT by/and-large...our credit limits/lol/keep rising...building more debt/upon more debt...witness what multinationals owe/what individuals owe...once the easy credit stops...those with chairs..will sit in them...those with beds will lie on them

<<Is the bank paying interest/on the deposits?>>>less than inflation[true inflation...isnt..in the govt numbers]...they exclude many/high inflation areas..as you should know


<<"who" was/is rich/enough to lend them..that amount of money?>>.when the fed's...took over the federal reserves/globally...they also took over the right..to issue minted money....

ie they/have exclusive franchise..over the printing of fiat/money...cyber credit...coin...its printed by demand...actually rented to banks...

who offset their fed accounts/franchises...much along the lines of fractional reserve/lending of old...but now based on securitised..loan applications,..that turn into bundled securities/even lol...credit defaults/are monetised

<<"Who" can be richer than the richest..?>>the ones keeping score

<<all I ask..is that you provide well documented evidence...>>
http://www.scribd.com/doc/18528530/Secret-Bankers-Manual
http://www.4shared.com/

try reading jackies posts
http://forum.worldfreemansociety.org/viewforum.php?f=49&start=25

<<does that not make 'them'... defacto rulers of the world"..?>>>no...see the clever money/assets...are held in trust...

you might know..the fed is controlled...by 12 banks...who are owned by yet other multinationals..the trick..is to have more debt..over people...while controling the board/..thus the trust

your not dealing with fools/only idiots decieved by easy credit/its a tangled we

Hi Pelly
in response to your question about whether I'm against pensions or welfare...no not at all. There have been times where I would have been sunk without it.

The thing I'm banging on about is the exploitation of people (the workers) by ideologically driven interests (unions under socialist control) who don't know when to stop and care even less.

Their ideology forces them to work toward a "just, fair,equal utopian"
society where everyone is equal...but that kind of "equality" will, if ever achieved be at a level or common denominator MUCH lower than what the workers have through the free market capitlist system now.

Before you start thinking I'm a total "ideological" capitalist, I'm not strictly. I am for a free market with very strong anti monopoly regulation/control. The only thing which makes capitalism 'bad' is when the freedom is used to form cartels, monopolies and economic blocks which can then dictate unfair terms of trade.

Unions are good to a degree....like Senates. Until they come under the control of 'ideological' interests (Unions) and Party interests (Senates) Then..it's time for a review.

Let's never forgete.. Socialists are driven (and I mean DRIVen) by an ideological objective of utterly destroying capitalism. Ring Socialist mob "Resistance" and ask the first person who answers the phone :)(03) 9639 8622

cheers

al gore is rich[...and if we get carbon trading he will be much more rich...seeing as he owns a few carbontrading firms

anyhow the joke of unions...lol...[lest we forget the mafia/runs a union scam/was involved in setting up the assasination of jfk...but is really just a front...to let it seem like they care about....'the worker/drones'

one m,ore case of those in black/suits...subverting others did-ease...into their own feather bedding

capitalism...needs capital...

to get capital...you need to go to bankers...who run...the global franchise...based on paper promises...if it takes money...then the bankers run the scam

there are the haves...[who have credit...and the have nots...who dont...if you have assets...they will gladly..give you credit...if you sign the aset over to them...from then ...you do as the bwankers say....or your...'credit'...simply goes away

but lets get back to jfk...who was murded..because he resisted the banker/mafia...ie he dared sign into being..pres order 11,110...which allowed govt to issue/yet again its OWN money...intrest free

ie no need for bankers....but the mafia/financed jfk....[lest we ignore the fib..of the fbi.../who also famously run the drug cartels...who financed jfk..thanks to his father/the former bootlegger

its a messy thing...one need only see what ford did...when he got installed....something nixon/tried to reverse...when the fib/fbi released a few tapes.,..we now call the water/gate

poli-ticks..is an apt word...lest we forget unions..got ol kevin elected...mate its a filthy-con all round...but the unions/arnt there for us...the public service feathers its own nest...and that of its mates...

but there is so much dirt...its time/someone stood up...like jfk/tried..in the end...but they know it will only go..the same way

its no use casting blame...the elite are a select club..to get into the club..you only need some power...or ability to deliver the numbers...

any who control the numbers...can rally...the 51 percent...demon-autocracy..needs to keep doing the demon/autocratic..deciets...even betraying the little/guy...

because in the end...its only them...who have no voice...thus no choice