In a news story today, it was revealed Spain is enacting austerity measures which include 5% pay cuts for government sectore employees.

Oh...oh..how the whining is growing.. and the blaming.

"We didn't cause the crisis, so why should our pay be cut"..PROTTESSSST.

But wait... did they? or Didn't they? and even if they didn't.. where is the money coming from to fix the problem ? It would only come from debt and that still has to be repaid with interest.. so much for their rationality!

GLENN BECK. (Cultural hero and possibly Saviour of the Western world:)
has good reason to replay things he declared a while back...and then point to the headlines/stories which prove him right.

Example 1
"In 2008 I said these Union Pensions were not sustainable"

29 May 2010 http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/12868
Unions want $165,000,000,000 bailout for their pensions.

Example 2
"Just last february I did a story portraying America as the economic Titanic...I received incredible flack for that"

7/6/2010 Drudge report shows picture of sinking Economic Titanic.
http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/data/2010/06/07/20100607_235910.htm

Beck says "Electicity Prices will skyrocket under Cap and Trade"
Then shows a clip of Obama saying exactly the same thing.

Unfunded Liabilities for Pensions and Welfare in the USA are in the TRILLIONS.

So..'WE' didn't cause this crisis? Are we to blame only the 2 senior Goldman Sachs people who appear to have driven the sub prime mortgage market collapse?

I don't think so.

Spain elected a Socialist government... for 'Socialist' read "Unsustainable, unfunded Promises of Welfare"

I look at P I G S and now Hungary as well and I wonder if their wholehearted belief in AGW has contributed to their financial problems.
There are only so many golden geese to lay their golden eggs and if all that is ""invested"" in cheap energy misadventures it might account for their problems.
Cash can be printed by Governments to prop up "green energy" but at some time there has to be an accounting. Spain is losing 2.2 real jobs for every green job formed. Their Government is also subsidising wind and solar energy.
Where is government finding the funds to prop up industries that cannot operate on a proper profitable basis?

maybe they need an INQUISITION.

Now there's a new idea

It seems that the world has got itself into a severe debtor's position.
It is now suddenly finding that it does not have the income to pay
back both the capital and the interest.

It seems we are all in the same boat to varying degrees.
The "man in the street" is not without blame with his big credit card
debt and trying to fund a lifestyle we cannot afford.

There is an opinion that we have exceeded the energy supply to produce
the fundamental economic gain to pay our debts.

Welcome to the post peak oil world.

DD most interesting that you say that.. specially if you (or anyone) lives in good ol Victoria. May I show you a new recent 'power' the Greens and Labor gave to us.
(to the Evil Opportunism and Human Reich Commission)

http://www.humanrightscommission.vic.gov.au/projects%20and%20initiatives/eoa%20review.asp#2
• Introducing a new power to the Commission to initiate action in the absence of a complaint. This means that the Commission can launch its own inquiries into systemic discrimination, enter into enforceable undertakings with discriminatory organisations and issue compliance notices.

I call it a 'Star Chamber'.

But..back 2 the topic.

BAZZ.
said:

//It seems that the world has got itself into a severe debtor's position.//

Actually.. yes and no. I think greedy short sighted 'workers' and spoiled public servants, along with opportunistic marxist Unionists who promised unsustainable financial/welfare reward... gave us that debt.
But then...those same communists, shriek and yell 'CAPITALISM' has failed you ! ! ! when the money runs out. (which they themselves caused to be overspent.)

Of course this does not bother them..because it creates the social conditions for "Revolution" which they were aiming for all along.

http://www.sa.org.au/abc-of-socialism/2747-why-we-need-a-revolution-to-get-socialism

"Only a revolution by the mass of workers which mobilises their collective power can sweep aside the machinery of capitalism, and only the process of revolution has the potential to equip workers – by providing them with the experience, lessons and unity – to build socialism, a society for the liberation of all."

COMMENT
There can be no question that the above is seditious.

Spain...Greece.. Hungary?..they are just symptoms..but not of the failure of Capitalism.. but the success of communist revolution infecting the minds of apathetic greedy 'men in the street' who don't even realize what's going on.

yes Al but nuthin new under the sun as long as a carflick can inflict PAIN on his fellow man [inquisition or not] - albeit them protestants were'nt too slack neither

But

"Unfunded Liabilities for Pensions and Welfare in the USA are in the TRILLIONS."

no problemo there mate, Capt Smirk showed us how to FUND such unfunded things, by simply taking money FROM the poor.

He called it a Future Fund - and he and Howard retired to REAP their future.

I am sure you have seen my video but here it is again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJPgjKqg_ws

and was I not right that he DID simply take all?

it is wearying..rebutting the same delusions..

peak oil is a lie[as surely must mow/be bleeding obvious,,just in one...'oil-spill'..where the talk is/on millions of gallons..freely flowing from a defective well..[under its own presure]..lol

there is no energy shortage..mankind has long known of freenergy...but special intrests..have become expert in spinning their spin...charging as much/..as the CON-sumer will bear

as for the missing pension funds..stolen by their trustees,..thats grand theft...as for green-jobs,..,lol...spain has revealed the joke of that

so what will fix the problem...isnt complicated...

before the bankers stole/..the worlds federal reserves...and got a franchise over money creation...govts simply issued bonds

[ok it still does..but the fed takes this VALUE...and charges ursury on it..lending govts their OWN money..[in the process stealing all the silver /gold coin-age]

thing is..in the old days..ONLY GOLD/silver had value...but today the value..is in our infastructure..[that bankers are slowly stealing as well...the usa national/parks are now owned by china...but we have known of this..for a long time

the criminals have long decieved us all
they are adept at spin...chosing who we can vote for/via controling party selection

by globally controling two party choices,,that are no cghoice
that...set us up for ignorant beurocracies..run by the elite..who run the public service...who own media...give us sport..in lue of news

who set up globalist cartels..give huge bonus..to their mates
who as builder -bnergers..think they are the elite/destined to rule it over the sheeple/the serfs...

who control what we can think about..even mondate what we save[think the compulsory super funds..buying up the world...giving them selves the gain..via bonus

but they have gone too far...done treason..globally...

first by stealing the right to issue money...[used to fight wars..finance the worlds natzie's/poll-pot/georgia etc]...but later to enslave us all in easy debt...then stealing our business/lands/houses assets

as well as our gold/silver currency...then as we built the assets..they demand a bailout...

yet we lend..from them...lol..to bail them out!
how clever they are

now its back to business...as usual
TILL THE NEXT BAILOUT!*

thing is the bankers have gone...so far...as to further endebit/govt..by demanding yet more bailouts...

further binding the people..into these measure's..that are causing so much angst globally

see the debt is owed to criminals...who via lie..have stolen all the wealth...who gave easy credit to endebit...not only the people..but every major instution...EVERY level of govt/state/country/assosiation

but they did it..*via criminal act..

thus the debt..is termed...in/legal terms..ODIOUS/DEBT..ie cannot be repaid...to the criminals...thus defaults..to the very state/thus its people,...from which it was missappropriated...neat solution..eh

look the assets/..have been created...
they NOW are the value..upon which govt can create more credit...

of course..inflation was the tool..of the criminal..and ursury...so govt creates its own....credit/intrest free..

the only ones that loose/..are those fools..who thought to take it all...under threat of destroying it all..!

every penny we repay...goes to reducing the debt...
ursury is vile..[noting the loving christ...was upset only at ursury/ursurors[ok and the lawyers/judges/taxers..

the solution is clear...any debt/owed will/must be repaid...
any ursury stolen..must be repaid..[being/..proceeds of crime]..

look...WE HAVE BUILT IT..and the building..IS PAID FOR...
the only debt...is the debt created by criminals/
by criminal act..thats LEGALLY/lawfully..its odious debt...

learn about the law...criminals CANNOT be allowed to kep the proceeds of crime...if you owe..pay-up..or go to jail..

.but you can only owe/that you owe,..,NOT URSURY

those who owe pensioners..payup..or go to jail..
you who owe debt..payup...

bankers have long used our securities..to create the fiction of 'fiat/money'...[money by govt decree]..lol

its only paper/cyber credit...but by abuse of the franchise/they stole our gold/silver..now our retirment...as well as our homes

they took our mortgauge/paper...ie a security/...ie value...
and gave us...*our own credit/..then tied us up into paying back..that our paper created...

enslaving us into the ursury/banking system...BY LIE

ODIOUS DEBT FOLKS

dont let the criminals/..who bought off the law/system...
who own/the media...who didnt teach us/the facts...in the schools THEY OWN...who own it all...WAKE-UP..

who enslaved you..to work/beyond retirment?
[who mortgauged your business.../home/pension...wages/govt]?

DONT let them/decieve you...any longer

I have a question for you, one under god.

Where is the money now, that has been stolen from us?

In whose bank account? Generally speaking, of course, I'm not asking for names.

Is the bank paying interest on the deposits?

Just a simple, generalized answer will do.

I have a question also.. to anyone who can answer it.

"If the richest countries in the world.. including America.. owe more than their GDP..."

"who" was/is rich enough to lend them that amount of money ?

I know some Oil states and China have helped..but its nowhere near the total.

"Who" can be richer than the richest ?

aaah.. where is our resident conspiracy theorist Arjay?

If anyone wishes to postulate a 'they'... all I ask is that you provide well documented evidence...not 'arguments from opinion or silence'.

The next question is obvious. "If there is a 'they' who have this amount of money..and now control this amount of debt.. does that not make 'them'... defacto rulers of the world" ?

I'm not sure it works that way, Boaz.

>>"If the richest countries in the world.. including America.. owe more than their GDP..." "who" was/is rich enough to lend them that amount of money?<<

The answer is "anyone with sufficient lending power".

First of all, don't get carried away with the concept of GDP - it is a measure of annual flow, not of physical worth.

Also, lending isn't actually based on physical securitization any more. Which is, in fact, what gets Arjay and Peter Hume's respective knickers in a twist.

They still yearn for the days where every banknote represented a promise to pay, in gold. And the gold in question was in fact safely tucked away in a bank vault, with the issuer's name on the door.

We have moved on from there - much to their bewilderment and consternation - to a different place entirely. The asset that stands behind a loan - or a banknote, which is precisely the same thing only slightly more "official" - has become separated from the money that is lent in its name.

The game now is the interest stream, not the asset itself. So if your uranium mine borrows a billion dollars from, say, China, they won't look at the physical asset itself - that's far too risky.

After all, if you defaulted on the loan, and the Chinese company went for the asset (the mine) the Australian Government would call in the FIRB, and they would lose everything.

Much easier if they were to simply evaluate your forecast cash flows, EBIT, etc., and made their lending decision - not on the basis of the asset, but on its earning power.

Same same countries. Who cares if the US owes more than its GDP? That's only a measure of one year's "revenue". And it is after all only a fraction of the total value of US assets, and it is their repayment-power that is the critical factor.

Hope that makes sense, and please feel free to pick it to pieces. It is only a layman's view, not a professional opinion.

Anyone who believes that exponential growth can go on forever in
a finite world is either a madman or an economist.
Kenneth E Bolding

Which are you Al Gore etc

Now the debts and GFC is the fault of unionists, socialists, public servants and...

Al get real. What about the greed of capitalist bankers. The GFC was a result of the failure of regulation of the big banks, so in that sense it was a failure of governments to ensure enough checks and balances in the system, but really your thinking is too bizarre to place the blame at the feet of unionists and public servants. Governmetns have always been a bit scared by the big end of town - they are a powerful lobby group. I wish you would expend some of your energy on highlighting the greed and exploitation factors on that side of business rather than abrogating responsibility to the little bloke all the time.

The US is not a socialist regime - yet they suffered the worst of the GFC.

Al
I can't help thinking, maybe unfairly, that either you have vested economic interests yourself that are bolstered by the worst side of capitalism (capitalism is not perfect) or your thinking is a bit bizarre.

Capitalism is the best system we have in an imperfect world but it is not without its faults, and you would have to be blind freddy if you cannot see capitalism works at its best with some attention to social as well as economic capital - hence the need for some regulation and for some spheres of society to be removed from the hands of the private sector.

That is not socialism but common sense.

Pelly.. I am real...

You are focusing on a different problem.

Let's list them and separate them.

1/ GFC .. caused by greedy_capitalist_bankers. Agreed.

and.

2/ Unsustainable Pensions and massive debt_Overspending... caused by greedy socialist Unions. Agree?

Even without the short term or narrow time window of the GFC, there were warnings going out loud and clear in 2008 that "These pensions are not sustainable" (Glenn Beck)

But these pensions are just one aspect...the whole Union movement can only survive by promising "more" and "better"..if it stops doing that.. the greedy self pitying workers will not elect them to office again.

Sad..but true.

Greece was a basket case long before the GFC and SPAIN was not far behind. Hungary is close and who knows who else is in the pen?

Pelly.. today I saw some most disturbing news.

An FBI agent who successfully infiltrated the Weather Underground communist movement in the USA... revealed (in 1981) the plans of that group.
-They plan to take over. (we knew that)
-They plan to 're-educate' all capitalists to the new way.
-Those not able to be re-educated, are to be killed
-They estimated they would have to kill 25,000,000 people.

WILLIAM AYERS was a member of that group.. a leader..but now ?

a) Ayers was asked in a January 2004 interview, "How do you feel about what you did? (Bombing_campaign) Would you do it again under similar circumstances?" He replied:[37] "I've thought about this a lot. Being almost 60, it's impossible to not have lots and lots of regrets about lots and lots of things, but the question of did we do something that was horrendous, awful? ... I don't think so. I think what we did was to respond to a situation that was unconscionable."

b) He writes childrens comics...

Ayers is currently a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, College of Education. His interests include teaching for social justice, urban educational reform, narrative and interpretive research, children in trouble with the law, and related issues.

Are they INSANE ? This is Mr "we might have to kill 25,000,000 people.!"

Al
Do you really think we would be better off without a pension scheme or some level of social security.

There are far worse money pits than pensions, which are an essential part of a civilised society and paid for by taxes and employer contributions. I have seen far more waste and rorts in other areas where there is little 'real' accountability particularly in certain politically sensitive areas.

As for Ayers, he may have been a communist in his youth but most of us have had dumb thoughts in our youth. Did Ayers actually kill anyone? I am certainly not going to judge him now as a sixty year old who has grown up and if he has paid for his crimes (I don't know much about him other than the bit from WIKI).

As for the list:

They plan to take over. (we knew that)
-They plan to 're-educate' all capitalists to the new way.
-Those not able to be re-educated, are to be killed
-They estimated they would have to kill 25,000,000 people

Yes it is typical of all radical movements whether they be facist or communist. It is similar to the superiority complex of the Colonial British Empire. Democratic capitalist nations despite talk of freedom and democracy are quite comfortable entering into wars where there is an economic benefit, but ignoring the atrocities where there is no economic benefit.

Unions have not always behaved well, like any organisation, they have been guilty of corruption, illegal activity and even murder. They have also done a lot of good to ensure workers are not exploited and that child labour was eradicated etc.

There is certainly a case for more checks and balances and for greater transparency and yes... that word again...governance.

I am all for exposing corruption Al, but it has to be done with honesty without making excuses for one or the other side of politics. The facts are what counts, not the rhetoric.

Interesting bit about social security here:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/8e72c4526a94aaedca2569de00296978!opendocument

Pericles..<<Where is the money now,/that has been stolen from us?>>..in art/in realestate...in assets/in gold/silver/in mines/business/stoks/bonds...its not rocket science

see/our promise to pay/creates credit/creates the funds...then its spent...the big problem/being,,our loans/credit applications...to the bankers..create's...[allows them to create the credit/money]...but the intrest/ursury...that needs to be made/by others defaulting

our/loan/applications..become/bundled securities...again on sold/into pension funds...as AAA/securities...the scam is huge..but if your taking some cream/on the way..you got hard assets[in hand]..when others default...as they surely shall[as soon as govt/stops bailing out the bankers]

<<In whose bank account?>>becomes superflourious/spurilous..remember..its all book credit...our loan/creates..an entry/that simply disappears..if/it ever gets paid-off

BUT by/and-large...our credit limits/lol/keep rising...building more debt/upon more debt...witness what multinationals owe/what individuals owe...once the easy credit stops...those with chairs..will sit in them...those with beds will lie on them

<<Is the bank paying interest/on the deposits?>>>less than inflation[true inflation...isnt..in the govt numbers]...they exclude many/high inflation areas..as you should know


<<"who" was/is rich/enough to lend them..that amount of money?>>.when the fed's...took over the federal reserves/globally...they also took over the right..to issue minted money....

ie they/have exclusive franchise..over the printing of fiat/money...cyber credit...coin...its printed by demand...actually rented to banks...

who offset their fed accounts/franchises...much along the lines of fractional reserve/lending of old...but now based on securitised..loan applications,..that turn into bundled securities/even lol...credit defaults/are monetised

<<"Who" can be richer than the richest..?>>the ones keeping score

<<all I ask..is that you provide well documented evidence...>>
http://www.scribd.com/doc/18528530/Secret-Bankers-Manual
http://www.4shared.com/

try reading jackies posts
http://forum.worldfreemansociety.org/viewforum.php?f=49&start=25

<<does that not make 'them'... defacto rulers of the world"..?>>>no...see the clever money/assets...are held in trust...

you might know..the fed is controlled...by 12 banks...who are owned by yet other multinationals..the trick..is to have more debt..over people...while controling the board/..thus the trust

your not dealing with fools/only idiots decieved by easy credit/its a tangled we

Hi Pelly
in response to your question about whether I'm against pensions or welfare...no not at all. There have been times where I would have been sunk without it.

The thing I'm banging on about is the exploitation of people (the workers) by ideologically driven interests (unions under socialist control) who don't know when to stop and care even less.

Their ideology forces them to work toward a "just, fair,equal utopian"
society where everyone is equal...but that kind of "equality" will, if ever achieved be at a level or common denominator MUCH lower than what the workers have through the free market capitlist system now.

Before you start thinking I'm a total "ideological" capitalist, I'm not strictly. I am for a free market with very strong anti monopoly regulation/control. The only thing which makes capitalism 'bad' is when the freedom is used to form cartels, monopolies and economic blocks which can then dictate unfair terms of trade.

Unions are good to a degree....like Senates. Until they come under the control of 'ideological' interests (Unions) and Party interests (Senates) Then..it's time for a review.

Let's never forgete.. Socialists are driven (and I mean DRIVen) by an ideological objective of utterly destroying capitalism. Ring Socialist mob "Resistance" and ask the first person who answers the phone :)(03) 9639 8622

cheers

al gore is rich[...and if we get carbon trading he will be much more rich...seeing as he owns a few carbontrading firms

anyhow the joke of unions...lol...[lest we forget the mafia/runs a union scam/was involved in setting up the assasination of jfk...but is really just a front...to let it seem like they care about....'the worker/drones'

one m,ore case of those in black/suits...subverting others did-ease...into their own feather bedding

capitalism...needs capital...

to get capital...you need to go to bankers...who run...the global franchise...based on paper promises...if it takes money...then the bankers run the scam

there are the haves...[who have credit...and the have nots...who dont...if you have assets...they will gladly..give you credit...if you sign the aset over to them...from then ...you do as the bwankers say....or your...'credit'...simply goes away

but lets get back to jfk...who was murded..because he resisted the banker/mafia...ie he dared sign into being..pres order 11,110...which allowed govt to issue/yet again its OWN money...intrest free

ie no need for bankers....but the mafia/financed jfk....[lest we ignore the fib..of the fbi.../who also famously run the drug cartels...who financed jfk..thanks to his father/the former bootlegger

its a messy thing...one need only see what ford did...when he got installed....something nixon/tried to reverse...when the fib/fbi released a few tapes.,..we now call the water/gate

poli-ticks..is an apt word...lest we forget unions..got ol kevin elected...mate its a filthy-con all round...but the unions/arnt there for us...the public service feathers its own nest...and that of its mates...

but there is so much dirt...its time/someone stood up...like jfk/tried..in the end...but they know it will only go..the same way

its no use casting blame...the elite are a select club..to get into the club..you only need some power...or ability to deliver the numbers...

any who control the numbers...can rally...the 51 percent...demon-autocracy..needs to keep doing the demon/autocratic..deciets...even betraying the little/guy...

because in the end...its only them...who have no voice...thus no choice

AlGoreisRich “The next question is obvious. "If there is a 'they' who have this amount of money..and now control this amount of debt.. does that not make 'them'... defacto rulers of the world" ?”

In the past the nearest to a consensus has been the Free Mason, although Mr Hitler and a few others determined it was the Jews.

Bazz “a madman or an economist.”

I heard a definition of an economist as a someone who has studied every position in the karma sutra to perfection but has no partner to employee such skills on -

And the only difference to a madman is

the madman is content in making love with his imaginary friend.

Pelican “the greed of capitalist bankers.”

Maybe before you blame bankers you should study the US regulators, who imposed racially motivated quotas on banks and threatened them with denial of banking license renewal unless they lent to those who, it ended up, did not honour their mortgage obligations. It was jingle mail which started the meltdown.

Everyone is fully able to invest in a pension fund, they have been aroud for centuries, long before government got involved.

However, the danger is when some socialist thinks they can debase the currency by failing to ensure liabilities are fully funded, as we see with the current Australian socialist government
There is an inherent defect in the desire of socialists to make everything “fair and equal”
It has never worked in the past and will never work in the future simply because people are inherently tribal and do favour their own family and friends above strangers, particularly when the stranger is of a different ethnic origin.

Or to put it another way, despite a belief in the power of nurture, nature will ultimately prevail, otherwise most sociopaths and psychopaths would not exist.
Regarding “They plan to 're-educate' all capitalists to the new way.”

we have only to look at the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot and many other lunatic collectivists to see what happens when a socialist minded psychopath ends up in charge of the “education program”

Stern

I was not advocating for a socialist system merely some oversight and regulation on the imperfect capitalist one. If you are so strongly of the view that nature dominates, surely that implies some constraints are needed within the system otherwise we have anarchy.

You said: "Or to put it another way, despite a belief in the power of nurture, nature will ultimately prevail, otherwise most sociopaths and psychopaths would not exist."

Yes but how many would be sociopaths or psychopaths in different nuturing circumstances? Despite the influence of nature, one's childhood and experiences do shape a person. Why would we even bother as good parents to provide discipline, and set standards of behaviour and to give love, if it is all down 100% to nature (excepting of course some more serious genetic distortions).

I don't think we should right off nuture all together.

Pelly

Yes but how many would be sociopaths or psychopaths in different nuturing circumstances?

err..I can think of a couple of OLO who would happily send me to the killing fields :)

But on regulation.. amen.. we do need it.. primarily to guarantee there are no capitalist monopolies.

BUT ALSO.. and this is a biggggg ONE. "Privatization" is a very dangerous playing field.

Let's look at what is offered.

FOR SALE.. "One giant sized electricity generation company"

Investors ask "Hmmm.. what guarantee do we have for on-going profitability" ?

Vendor says "aaah..don't worry about that.. we'll include guarantees in the contract, including clauses that we will not make legislative changes which effect that profitability, without huge compensation" (bang..there goes subsidies for solar panels!)

BUYER ..."Hmmm, that souds pretty good.. err what about Unions"?

VENDOR.. "we can work that out.. don't worry"

SALE goes ahead.

THEORETICAL OUTCOME.

-Short term debt reduction money or.. funds to support re-election campaign.
-Hamstrung from ever doing anything about lowering either carbon footprint or cost of electricity by contractual arrangements.
-If changes in law go ahead to provide lower elect costs(self generation...solar etc) compensation must be paid to the supplier.
-Loss of an income producing asset.

ACTUAL OUTCOME

-we are screwed.. no matter which way we turn. grrrrr...

scumbags.. absolute scumbags...

pelican “the view that nature dominates, surely that implies some constraints are needed within the system otherwise we have anarchy”

your notion of “constraints” does not work with tigers and certainly not sharks, as part of “nature” they just get on with breeding and killing their victims for food.... yet I do not see that as “anarchy”.

And tigers and sharks have survived through the millennia by doing just that.

Now, whilst i do not advocate killing off collectivists, the way Stalin and so many other collectivists killed off their opponents, i do feel they should be curbed from their enthusiasm to impose their version of “fairness” and “balance” upon ordinary people, who do not want or need the benefits of collectivist philosophy.

Nature, of course does change, it is called evolution but it has never evolved to make things “fairer” or more “equal”. Indeed, “survival of the fittest” could be said to produce the exact opposite.

Ultimately we start from nature and attempts to change it often cost significantly more than the benefits they produce and can send things backward........

just ask the Cambodian teachers who Pol Pot decided to “re-educate”... oh sorry, you cannot... they are all dead.... but dying not to feed the appetite of a tiger or a shark but dead because they dared hold opinions contrary to collectivist dogma.