After this weeks debacle in the Mediterranean what can Israel do when the next boat arrives? More of the same? What happens when the numbers of boats keeps growing. How will the world react if the same thing happens? Is there any way to stop the boats without the risk of deaths and injury? Will they be forced to just let them pass? What sort of damage would that do?

Those supporting the Palestinians must see this as the first propaganda coup in a long time that they are winning. I must say this is much better than lobbing missiles or strapping on explosives. The world will not be won over by seeing Israelis blown to bits. It apparently wont be swayed by the deaths of thousands of Palestinians either. But if citizens of third countries die it seems to make a difference. Strange I must say but if thats what it takes. Will the peoples of the world who support the Palestinians stand up and put their lives on the line?

Could this be the way to force the issue? I have always said that violence and terrorism will never solve this issue. You dont win friends by blowing them up.

Dear Mikk,

Palestinian politician Hanan Ashrawi
once said, "Now is the time for the
US, for the international community,
the Quartet, to stand up and say,
this is not finished... Israel does
not have the right to act unilaterally,
it does not have the right to wreak
havoc..."

Israel has been calling the shots since 1967,
and clearly believes that the US will
support them no matter what they choose to do.
This time however, there is global outrage
and concern. It will be interesting to see
what the US will decide to do (if anything).

Antony Loewenstein in his book, "My Israel
Question," summed it up rather well:

" The Kadima vision is of a concrete wall,
with Jews on one side and as many Arabs as
possible on the other. Sooner or later,
Israel and the Palestinians will have to meet
face-to-face, listen to each other's
grievances and negotiate with honesty.
Only then - and on the condition that both
Israel and the Palestinian state achieve safety
and security - will this conflict be resolved.
Neither side has a monopoly on suffering, but
only one party has the power to end the
occupation and to recognise that Israel and
Palestine are historically destined to share
the same homeland."

The real challenge is to persuade the US,
and their (and our) political leaders and news
media to listen to voices that challenge their
prejudices and preconceptions. The establishment
of an independent, Palestinian state is
inevitable, but it will not happen easily, nor
without the involvement of many caring people.

Mine the coastline of Gaza, it is Israeli Territory after all. Advise any ship that decides to run the blockade to stop, if they don't they don't, they will have accepted a known risk. It is a shame it had to come to this, but irresponsible fanatics have misused respected peace activists in order to provoke a violent, bloody conflict.

The only way to stop it is to make it insane to take the risk, then only the insane will risk it. That won't stop Hamas/IHH but it will stop the Westerner's they have co-opted and used. As Hamas has blocked the aid, obviously it isn't critically needed (Hamas wouldn't deny it's people much needed aid to suit itself would it?)...

Oh I adore watching this play out, the first outburst of mad hysteria, then the evidence starts to be weighed and given weight according to its credence... A propaganda coup is about to become Palliwoods worst nightmare, they have embarrassed some VERY influential people.

mikk

you said:

"this is much better than lobbing missiles or strapping on explosives."

OF COURSE it is! but what seems to escape many is that the Israeli reaction to this 'peace flotilla' is BECAUSE of those missiles and strapped on explosives over many years.

Another dimension to this is also escaping many supporters of Palestians.

This type of 'aid' would not even be neccessary if the Tyrant thug fascist Neo Nazi's of Hamas were not governing/oppressing the inhabitants of Gaza.

There would be peace...if they demonstrated a desire for peace.

PROBLEM But when you look at the underlying issues... Hamas have never wanted peace nor the existence of Israel. So.. as the violence grew...based on that fundamental anti-Jew hatred and loathing .. a hatred which would if not checked result in exactly the same kind of 'final solution' dished out by the Nazi's.

FASCINATING VIDEO EXPOSE'

http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2010/05/david-horowitz-at-ucsd-muslim-student.html

In the video a Muslim student at a David Horowitz lecture 'begins' her question with the typical 'soft' approach that characterizes political correctness these days. But it ends with the true colors of Hamas/Hezbollah displayed naked for the world to see. Hamas is nothing less than re-invented 'death camps for Jews' mindset.

The student confirms this.

So.. with this background, Israel's reaction is entirely understandable. It also means that criticism of it, is entirely irrational and could be said to be supportive of a 'death camps for Jews' mentality. Mikk? is this you?

Aaah.. gentle sweet, amiable foxy :)

//Sooner or later,
Israel and the Palestinians will have to meet
face-to-face, listen to each other's
grievances and negotiate with honesty.//

But foxy..if those 'negotiating positions' are irreconcilable.....what is the likely outcome ?

I don't think I'll try to change you... I'm only asking in order to understand your thinking.
But you might benefit in your background thinking by reading that chater in detail.

FYI

HAMAS CHARTER.
http://middleeast.about.com/od/palestinepalestinians/a/me080106b.htm

Introduction:

Surat Al-Imran (III), verses 109-111 Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.

Article One: The Ideological Aspects: The Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam; derives from it its thinking, interpretations and views about existence, life and humanity; refers back to it for its conduct; and is inspired by it in whatever step it takes.

COMMENT
I don't find much comfort in such documents for your recommendations Foxy. Do you see this kind of assertion as just like a Union bargaining position...say "We want 120% pay rise..or we strike indefinitely" of course they know that is impossible but the shock value certainly gets attention.
Their real position is maybe 10% rise.

Is that how you see this Fox

There will never be peace in the middle-east until the entire Arab culture changes.

What passes for television there is nothing short of Nazi-like propaganda. It's horrific, even children's shows are hijacked by these cowardly death cult values, and shoved down their little throats via cuddly friendly characters telling them that killing Christians and Jews is fun.

The entire region needs to be occupied. We need another world war, but this time, we need all the decent countries of western Europe to help out.

We could have a 10 million man army to control and guide such cultures out of 7th century desert Arabian values.

No actually, the world could actually, instead of trying to "manufacture" a true, Islamic Democracy, with modern values and all the rest, actually embrace those that do exist - Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan) & Azerbaijan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan)...

But on the basis that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, we continue to watch the world throw massive amounts of resources at the Palestinians. Sh1t, these two nations have massive oil & gas reserves, so they wouldn't even need to be funded out of the dark ages. All they need is the support necessary to safeguard them.

That is what amazes me with the "peace flotilla", absolute bunch of condswallop aimed at providing a propaganda victory for people who will not help themselves. Yet these societies, which are models for the entire world (not just the middle east) are ignored, not newsworthy enough. Or is it that Israel isn't involved?

These ships are supporting and giving aid to terrorists.
Israel has no option but to take all personnel off the ships then sink it.
Any one of these ships could be carrying any type of weaponry used to kill israelies.
Israel does not have the manpower nor inclination to conduct a thorough search of these ships.
But one thing they cannot afford is to allow these ships through unsearched.
No I am not a Jew I am an atheist

It's interesting to read people's
interpretations of "terrorism."
I would have though that "terrorism"
can only be applied to political acts
of violence that are aimed at civilians.
Beheading construction workers in Iraq
and bombing a market in Jerusalem is
terrorism, pure and simple.

Yet to suggest
that any and all forms of Palestinian
resistance to an illegal occupation
is "terrorism" or the work of "militants"
ignores totally the legitimate rights of
an oppressed people to struggle for their
independence.

"Terrorism" seems to be
accepted by some, as a defining term
for Palestinian resistance,
whereas an Israeli military
campaign has legitimacy. In this view, Israelis,
and Westerners in general, never commit terrorism,
only Arabs and Palestinians do.

Therefore for some - the recent debacle in Gaza that
has caused global outrage at Israel violating
international maritime law is perfectly acceptable.
There is no need to ask questions like - why didn't
the Israeli authorities apply "border protection
policies" as practised at shipping ports, airports,
and border crossings, where civilized, legitimate
procedures are used to determine illegal importation
of goods, such as weapons, drugs, contraband, plants,
food items, animals and birds. Did they even try
using negotiation and diplomacy?

In the dark, shadowy figures coming out of noisy
helicopters with weapons, to any normal person,
would appear to be a threat to their safety and
would naturally evoke self protection.

If we condemn the actions a rabble of
undisciplined Somali pirates approaching
large ships in small boats threatening the ships,
bording them successfully, and then taking those
ships and passengers as hostages to Somali ports.
Why not condemn the actions of
a highly-trained Israeli military force for doing the
same thing and causing deaths and injury? Blaming
the organisers of the flotilla is shifting the
responsibility from decisions taken by the Israeli
government, and its well-trained military.

At the very least,
an independent international inquiry needs to be
conducted to clarify the circumstance of the
incident.
Anything less would simply be an injustice.

Oh Dear, it goes on and on.
I continue to be amazed at the number of people who are unaware of the
nature of war at sea.

I would suggest a few minutes thought along these lines.

It is generally considered that there is a war like status between
Gaza and Israel.
Israel should, to clarify matters, declare a state of war with Gaza.
There seems to be a large group of protesters who are surprised that
people might actually be killed in a war at sea.
Baby Boomers and those younger do not seem to realise the nature of
war at sea.

In a war, blockade runners are likely to be torpedoed without notice.
If Israel had sunk the ships with all on board there is plenty of
precedence to support their action.
There is absolutely no point in calling it piracy or complaining
about the action in International waters, they are not relevant.
As much as you all are appalled at that, that is the way it is
so live with it !

Yes Foxy they did try negotiating.
They requested that they go to a port in Israel and unload the ships
there and they could accompany the cargo to Gaza to ensure it was delivered.

I heard the radio conversation between the Israeli army and the ships.
It appears that the suggestion was refused, probably because that was
not the aim of the exercise.

Dear Bazz,

A few clarifications:

The flotilla was in international waters
carrying humanitarian aid, medicine,
food, and so forth. They were not engaged
in a battle with the Israeli government or
its military. It was the Israeli military
that swooped down on them at night, fully
armed, with live ammunition. That is an act
of piracy, not a war time battle.

Israel does not have the right to act unilaterally.
And it certainly needs to explain the current
violation of international maritime law. Why couldn't
the ships be allowed to deliver the goods at the
Gaza ports, the goods could have been off-loaded
and inspected by UN officials. I'm sure that the
Palestinians would have accepted that. However,
again, It's either Israel's way or no way.
That's not negotiation!

3) You claim that Israel did negotiate? Negotiation
means that you actually listen to the other side's
requests, and not dictate only your terms to them.
Why should the Palestinians accept only the terms
that Israel dictates? The entire peace process
attempted between Palestine and Israel always
appears to be on the terms of the Israeli government
and no consideration is conceded to the Palestinian
requests. The offers to date have been neither fair
nor equitable.

How has Israel acted unilaterally? Hamas declared war on Israel, Israel responded with a blockade to prevent arms reaching Hamas. Israel was forced to enforce the blockade, inside Israeli waters, whereupon the 'activists' on one of the six vessels embarked on a violent, unprovoked, premeditated attack on the boarding party. Any other navy would have stood off and sunk them. Grow up

The evidence is stacking up, even the Guardian is stating that the Flotilla was a crock of s-it, which was intended to provoke a violent response by breaking the laws of Israel. Hamas has not allowed the aid through, which demonstrates how vital it really must be...

This is a propaganda stunt, which worked a little too well... It exceeded their expectations and capacity to deal with, now watch the splashback as people realise they were fooled.

The language of reporting plays a
big part in how people are going
to perceive what is really happening.
For example, if "Jewish settlement"
changes to being called a "Jewish
neighbourhood," perception changes
from an illegally occupied land to
one of legitimacy.

Same, if Israeli violence is
described as "retaliation," the
term "retaliation" suggests a defensive
stance undertaken in response to
someone else's aggression. It also lays
responsibility for the cycle of violence
at the doorstep of the party being
"retaliated" against, since they
presumably initiated the conflict.

The result of these encroaching dishonesties
is the inability of some readerships to
understand the realities of settlment
expansion or the killing of civilians when
"targeted killings" occur.

These inherent bias against the Palestinians
and Israel's attempts to ensure that the
picture presented is of fighting a battle
inflicted opon them, rather than of their
own choosing, is critical to how the world
views the conflict.

The time has come for accountability, not
excuses.

Most assuredly, I have been calling for a full, impartial and credible, preferably Judicial investigation (Not the UN, we both know why) into what happened, the EXACT sequence of events, the precise time that everything happened, etc.

I personally have made no secret of the fact that I feel that this is a set-up, into which a lot of high profile, highly respected people have been co-opted, which at heart is nothing more than a propaganda stunt.

You obviously feel that the opposite is true and that is your right.

But I think that provided we BOTH want to get to the facts at the base of the entire event, we can work in a degree of harmony? I mean, both of us worship the truth over hysterical posturing, do we not?

There is certainly two sides to this, as there always is, and the truth will, while almost certainly favoring one side over the other, be somewhere between the subjective "truth" being pushed by both parties.

Can we agree to at least recognise that we BOTH want precisely the same thing? An impartial, Judicial Inquiry, conducted by someone trusted by both sides? I mean, even Al Jazeera is beginning to cast doubt over the entirety of the claims from the flotilla, so too is the Guardian Newspaper in the UK... That says something, because they very rarely criticise Arabs in this situation.

There is something here that smells awfully bad, I'd like to see the facts, identified as facts, not propaganda, laid out in the cold, hard light of reality (as only a Judicial Enquiry can do).

That they were in International waters is not relevant.
They were intent on sailing to a blockaded port.
That is all that in the end matters.

Piracy does not fit these circumstances.
Piracy is an act of theft action by criminals, not an action by a state.

>Israel does not have the right to act unilaterally.
It does in its own defence.

Unloading at the Gaza port may have exposed the Israeli or UN
officials to attack and UN officials may not have been acceptable.

Well they made the offer of the Israeli port and if the cargo was so
important, why didn't they accept the offer ?

Did they put their pride before those in dire need ?

Foxy,
You quoted somebody the other day as an expert.
What was his name again?
That's right, Charles Krauthammer.
This is what your expert, Charles Krauthammer had to say on this issue:
"The fundamental deception here is the use of the word humanitarian."
"There is no-one starving in Gaza."
"Israelis allow food and medicine everyday overland into Gaza."
"This was not about humanitarian aid."
"It was about breaking the blockade (to enable weapons to be taken into Gaza)."
"Egypt blockades Gaza from the west (but no-one has any problems with that)."
"Gaza is run by Hamas, a terror entity."
Please listen to the experts, Foxy.
Especially the one's whose expert status we can both agree upon,
otherwise the system starts to breakdown.

If this was a peaceable flotilla; why were the Israeli soldiers set upon with bars etc by a group of thugs? Why did these peace lovers initiate violence? Watch the footage of the boarding.

Have a look at:
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177187

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6044639/peace-convoy-this-was-an-islamist-terror-ambush.thtml

Close up of the violence upon Israeli Soldiers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64vsq8eHps0&feature=related

Dear Foxy,

Sharing the homeland means sharing it. It does not mean dividing it up into two countries, Israel and an independent Palestinian state which can be at each other's throats. The hatreds will only fester if each side is behind a national boundary. Dividing the two peoples up by a national boundary is not better than dividing them up by a concrete wall.

Sharing the homeland to me means creating one country which does not discriminate among its citizens on the basis of religion and ethnicity. It means separation of religion and state. If parents want to segregate their children from those of a different religion and ethnicity they can pay the cost - not as Australia where government finances religious schools.

Sharing the country means learning to live together. The Zulus and the Afrikaners in South Africa both wanted to separate from the rest of South Africa after the apartheid government was overthrown. Neither were allowed the self-determination which would have fragmented the country, and the various peoples of South Africa are learning to live together. I believe the same thing applies to Israel/Palestine. They have to learn to live together, and that means sharing, going to school together, working together and living together under a government that does not discriminate among its citizens.

That does not seem immediately feasible, but I think it is a much more worthwhile goal than fragmentation which can lead to future conflict.

Dear Custard,

Of course we can agree!

I totally support an objective
international inquiry into the incident.
One which will be acceptable to everyone.
As I've said umpteen times - and as Antony
Loewenstein stresses in his book, "My
Israel Question,"
"Neither side has a monopoly on suffering,
but only one party has the power to end
the occupation and to recognise that Israel
and Palestine are historically destined to
share the same homeland."

Dear David F.,

Of course sharing the same homeland is the
best outcome. With safety and security
for ALL of its citizens.
And Israel has the power to
end the occupation and do precisely that.
However as Amira Hass argues:

"Average Israelis care little about Israeli
expansionism, violation of international law,
and the human rights and wefare of the
Palestinians. 'They simply want them to live
elsewhere.' The delusion that underpins the
Israeli government's plan reveals a deep-seated
Zionist perspective, despite the rhetoric
suggesting that Israel has abandoned decades
of settlement expansion. The Israeli government
talks as if the Palestinians should be grateful
for the scraps of land and rights their government
is offering, rather than understanding their
justified rejection."

In all of this, the news media plays a crucial role,
since they are the major conduit for the debate.

As Loewenstein tells us:
(And, the whole point of his book) -

"It is time for a radical re-thinking of the conflict."

Philo,let's wait until all the evidence is revealed.Some eye witnesses are saying Israel was firing from the choppers before they boarded the ship.

We are only getting the evidence that Israel allows to be aired.They blocked all communications before and during this event.There is much more to than meets the eye.

This is all very interesting but I was trying to find out what people think the future holds in respect of more boats heading to Gaza.

It is obvious this was a blow to Israel irrespective of who was to blame, in the wrong etc. The flotilla organisers have already said they have 2 more boats ready to go plus the Rachel Corrie already almost there.

What can Israel do and how will the world react to their actions?
This time only a few turks died but what if next time its an Aussie journalist or an Irish grandmother or a holocaust survivor?

Dear Mikk,

It's hard to tell what Israel will do.
All we can do is speculate. However,
their record to date is not good.
There have been demonstrations of protest
in their own cities, demonstrations globally,
including from Hassidic Jews in New York,
yet Israel remains firm in their stance
that they are blameless in relation to the
current situation.

This thinking inevitably leads to the labelling
of anybody who disagrees as an antisemite.
The only way that things may have a possibility
of changing is if the US applies pressure.
However, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Foxy,
Thanks for recommending the expert Charles Krauthammer to OLO readers.
Here he is railing on about how "the world is outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza..."

"Those Troublesome Jews"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html

Dear Proxy,

I did not refer Charles Krauthammer
to anyone. He's your hero, not mine.
Kindly don't assign your reality
to me. As I've told you in the past,
any connection between your reality
and mine is purely co-incidental.

And as for the link you give -
I prefer the rational analysis
that was done by Aluf Benn,
31st May 2010, in the
"Haaretz," Israeli newspaper.
At least it's objective.

The mainstream media in the USA
does not practice investigative
journalism. It is firmly allied
with Israel, and is totally committed
to Israel, right or wrong!

I was sure that you knew that.

Can someone tell me how to get the links working in this? Anyhow, here are the relevant portions of the Helsinki Principles (http://i50.tinypic.com/nyqgj.jpg). Here is perhaps the most believable account of what happened:D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded).

Yeah, just like that other well known Israeli puppet, Al-Jazeera... This is THEIR footage (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1447670521734&oid=121348851234252). It matches, blow for blow, stab for stab, with the IDF footage...

Foxy,

<<Dear Proxy, I did not refer Charles Krauthammer to anyone.>>

I refer to your post of the 27th ultimo:
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3655&page=0#88665
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 27 May 2010 8:17:40 PM

...wherein you quoted from two Foxy-designated experts,
Charles Krauthammer and Peter Beinart.
How do I know that Foxy considers them experts?
Because she says so in the same post:

<<I do my research prior to posting.
I also research more than one source.
I quote from experts who know what they are talking about.
I respectfully suggest that you do the same in future.>>

I was only doing exactly as you asked, Foxy.
Not only was I quoting an expert,
I was quoting from a Foxy-designated expert, Charles Krauthammer.
I shall continue to quote from him now that he has your imprimatur.

Dear Proxy,

Obviously you haven't understood
my posting on that particular
thread.

Try again!

Dear Proxy :)

You have just experienced *it*

"stonewalling" from the foxhole.

MIKK

//This is all very interesting but I was trying to find out what people think the future holds in respect of more boats heading to Gaza.//

I suggest 'more commando's/bullets and choppers'

But there will be variations maybe.

*mines*
*Naval blockades*

As yet unknown, and of greatest concern, is if these lunatics calling themselves 'peace' protesters try to do what happened in Ramallah a while back.. and walk past a military blockade to Arafats H/Q.. one brain damaged American explained -the Israeli tank commander told her "you can't go there" and she said "What will you do if I do?"
He said.. "we will have to shoot you"...and she replied "Then shoot me"

This is ok to a certain point...where the Israeli's can weigh it up and give a bit.. but the situation or point will definitely arise where some (like in this case) people do get killed.
The next time, it might be worse.

In that case, it would not be a happy situation to be "Noticably Jewish" in Melbourne.

Example -Let's play 'BEAT THE JEW' on facebook.

http://www.fighthatred.com/recent-events/individual-hate/714-40-california-students-caught-playing-beat-the-jew-facebook-game

Or...let's run an "Israel Aparthied week" and (well read the rest)

http://thentherewaslight.com/542_breaking-propalestinian-security-toronto-university-threaten-assault-jewish-students-shut-head/

Can you show me ONE..just ONE example of Jews around the world who are 'attacking Palestinians' ?

Oh..I found one :)

http://www.zimbio.com/Zionism/articles/90/Zionists+now+attacking+Palestine+supporters

But the google search for "Jews attack Palestinians" brought up the first 6 entries as "Muslim students attack Jewish students"

Interesting.

Dear Al,

Be more specific and accurate in your searching.

Try googling:

"Israel's crimes against Palestinians."

There is plenty of historical material
available in the form of books, newspaper
articles, films, et cetera on the topic.
Ask a librarian for help at your regional
public library. The information is there
to be had if you're having problems
searching.

Historian Benny Morris wrote a book,
"Survival of the Fittest?" which may be
of interest. Then there's, "A History of
Modern Palestine: One land, two people's"
by Prof. Ilan Pappe. As well as
"The Birth of the Palestinan Refugee Problem."

If you don't know how to search the subject,
simply ask.

If you are worrying about what will happen next time, then here is my
scenario that I think likely.
Ships will sail from Turkey or Egypt.
They will not have a team of protesters on board, because I think the
masters will only allow crew. That is if they are sensible.

Senario 1.
The Israelis will demand to search the ships at sea. The master will not refuse.

Senario 2.
If they manage to enter the Gaza port and the cargo will be found to not
have embargoed goods in the manifest.
The Israelis may relent and allow further shipments.
Once the Israelis have gone to sleep further shipments will include
armaments etc.

Senario 3.
The Israelis will sink the ships, or possibly disable them with
gunfire.

I think some of you have short memories, previous attempt have have
had weapons and rockets on board.
If you were them, what would you do ?

Frankly I think there is no solution to this problem which was caused
when the Romans expelled the Israelis from Jerusalem in AD63.

"If the Arabs laid down their weapons today, there would be no more war. If the Jews laid down their weapons today, there'd be no more Israel." Benjamin Netanyahu

Yes, I support a FULL INQUIRY, held by an independent adjudicator, to look at the "evidence" and examine the probity thereof. The reported gunfire from the helicopters does not fit with the footage (from either side) or the casualties. It may fit if it were merely intimidatory, ie. paintball pellets, but not live rounds.

All the dead were killed with 9mm Parabellum Rounds from Pistols at close range, during the second assault - to free the 4 IDF members held below decks (as reported by the Al Jazeera Cameraman) presumably.

The fact only 9 were killed is incredible given the circumstances, I doubt many other armies could achieve the same. Of course, the use of pistols, ie. low powered weapons, would have kept the death toll down dramatically (low chance of ricochets).

The evidence from BOTH sides, verbal and visual, supports this conclusion (when stripped of hysterical crap). I suspect that is precisely what the outcome of any rational, considered review of the evidence would conclude as well.

Given the Helsinki accords and the Hague Conventions destroy the spurious "Piracy" charge, and the video from both parties show who started the violence, I suspect the "Peace Activists" have more to lose from an inquiry than the IDF.

The "Rachel Corrie" has been successfully rerouted to Ashdod, without violence (shows what happens when the "Peace Protesters" act peacefully doesn't it?).

Good, the blockade stands (legally a blockade is only legal while it is maintained, if vessels are allowed through it is no longer a blockade), so Hamas will not have access to shipments of weapons, explosives, etc.

So, in the end run, despite all the noise and idiocy, the "Peace Protesters" have achieved nothing but to throw the legitimacy of the IHH into open question. If they wish to keep funding the shipping of materials and supplies to Ashdod for the IDF to deliver to Gaza, they are more than free to do so.

Hopefully, this brings us one step closer to forcing Hamas to negotiate instead of trying to win world support through propaganda stunts and/or violence.

Antony Loewenstein, in his book,
"My Israel Question," tell us:

"One of the most effective means of media
control that the Israelis use is issuing
releases after an incident and then
restricting access to journalists trying
to get to the location of the event...

They (the Israeli Defense Force) just lie.
On their press releases, if we're talking
about incidents where the Israeli Defense
Force was alleged to have killed Palestinians,
or others, the first response is, 'we were
responding to terrorist gunfire in the area.
We have the right to self-defence.
(sound familiar). We can do this under
international law.' So then if a journalist
bothers to go there and actually interviews
people, someone like Amira Hass from "Haaretz",
a journalist who's basically doing their job,
and comes back and challenges them and actually
has convincing evidence, they're forced to
admit it. They'll say, 'Sorry about civilian
casualties but we're fighting a war on terror.'
But most of the time it doesn't get to the
second point, and so they have this culture
where they can just spin. Most of the
journalists based in Jerusalem are going to spin
this Israeli line because they simply aren't
bothering to go out and see these places."

Perhaps this time - the international
reporters won't accept the spin -
And the truth will come out.
Sooner than later.

Foxy,

It doesn't matter what effort anyone puts in does it? I could show you the relevant International Law, the San Remo, the Hague, even Helsinki, all of which go directly to the heart of the matter.

But it wouldn't matter would it? You are so convinced in the "wrongness" of Israel's actions that you are incapable of being swayed. Anything that is found to be true by an international inquiry, you'll conveniently ignore (take the Arab line, they are sure to ignore it too).

I can say this, when I started suggesting that Israel's actions were legal at the outset, none of the evidence now available was available. Something just didn't smell right about the whole setup (and setup it was) and having been a soldier I realise that using a pistol to shoot people is a recourse to a last resort. Soldiers don't use pistols except when things are B A D.

You refuse to be pinned to any one topic, you skip, hop and jump from one idiotic cliche to another, in order to "prove" your points with bullsit pseudo-intellectual garbage. A debate is not a debate without recourse to the rules of debating. You aren't the only one, but you are more intelligent than is the rule with trolls. That said, a troll is a troll and a waste of bandwidth to argue with.

Custard,
You can see now why Foxy, CJ Morgan, et al. get along so famously.
You say "a debate is not a debate without recourse to the rules of debating",
but they don't recognise any rules of debate or even reason itself.
They are, as you say, a complete waste of bandwidth, time and space.

spoken from my recliner near the fire....

//... what Proxy said// :)

Dear Custard,

One of the most remarkable aspects of the
whole Israel-Palestine debate is how
intense the rhetorical defence of Israel
becomes.

On the other hand, there is international
criticism over Israel's military aggression,
as Israel asserts its right of the Jewish
state to exist in Palestine while the Palestinian
people struggle, some peacefully, some violently,
for survival.

Far beyond Israel's disputed borders, in New York,
Washington, London, Paris, Sydney, Melbourne,
and on internet forums, the conflict is played
out in passionate public debate by Zionist
organisations, Arab advocates, newspaper columnists,
and individuals, presidents and prime ministers,
politcians and activists of all shades.

Those who dared to criticise Zionist wrongdoing
in the past, and Israeli policies and actions in
the present, will have false allegations thrown
at them. That's par for the course.

It will not however deter the asking of relevant
questions and the truth being told.

I have stated that I would be jubilant to see the outcome of an independent judicial inquiry. I believe that it will vindicate the IDF, based upon my experience as a soldier. Why do I defend the IDF, because I found it difficult, if not impossible, to believe the crud being spouted the other day. Trained, elite troops DO NOT carry on as alleged and the IDF is acknowledged as being the best.

You think otherwise... That is your right, which you will note I have not vilified? The fact of the matter is that the evidence I have seen to date, from both sides, bears little relation to the alleged actions of the IDF, it shows them doing PRECISELY what they have admitted doing. It shows the protesters doing precisely what they DENIED doing.

When one side is shown to be telling the truth & the other lies, it is kind of hard not to reach a provisional conclusion. I may still be proven wrong, a provisional conclusion is like that (and the IDF has done some bad things, breaking that kids arm that time for one), but in this case, the over the top hysteria without evidence and the disinformation campaign suggest otherwise.

In the past, news coverage has
always been one-sided, and this
was detrimental to a broader understanding
of the conflict. The lack of Arab or
Palestinian sources - and greater suspicion
towards them - led to a skewed perspective
and meant that the debate continued to follow
the same old paths. Let us hope that this
time both sides of the coin will be presented.
Putting a human face to the Palestinian people
and explicitly saying that immoral acts will not
be tolerated, should be acceptable in a
democratic news media. Why is it over the top
and hysteria to advocate Palestinian human rights
and an independent homeland? After all, the Jews
already have Israel. I suppose it is far easier
to demonize the Palestinians than actually
attempt to humanise what you don't fully understand.

Why should anybody respect this (illegal) blockade anyway?

When most other countries had sanctions against South Africa during the oppressive Arpatheid regime, guess which country was not only supplying the South Africans with military equipment but also training their brutal Security Forces?

It was the same country that was supplying most of the South American dictators with their armaments as well.

It's also the same country that politically and financially supported Hamas when they decided to get rid of Fatah.

The reason certain foods are considered "banned" in this blockade is because the Israelis are monitoring the caloric intake of the Palestinian population.

This isn't about the threat of military equipment but it's about deliberately keeping them as close to starvation as possible.

"The idea," said Dov Weisglass, an Israeli government advisor, "is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not make them die of hunger."

Fishing boats are fired on if they go beyond a 3km limit but the fish are typically 6km from shore.

Typical of the brutal thuggish regime they have become - while all the psuedo-Biblical hypocrites ignore this, cheer them on from the sidelines and expect this to lead to some sort of lasting peace in the region.

For international terrorism, the actions of Israel are the gift that keeps on giving.

wobbles,
Where and by whom are these wild claims of diet and starvation being applied by the Israelis verified? I suggest you read reputable sites rather than propagander. The Israelis trucked all the legitimate supplies into the Palistinians along with bussing the passengers and the illegals.

Here is an article from Ha'aretz, which describes the call by Naval Reservists, for an International Inquiry into the incident: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-reserves-officers-allow-external-gaza-flotilla-probe-1.294536 Israel is refusing the investigation until they manage to find an actual impartial group, which is going to be kind of difficult.

Here are the pictures from "The Daily Hurriyet" showing pictures of IDF members, in various states of distress which they claim were taken & released by the IHH: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?msg=commentsaved&n=hurriyet-daily-publishes-photos-of-bloodied-israeli-soldiers-2010-06-06

Note, the comments- several people express disbelief at the paper printing such pictures which are so damaging to the IHH's official position, while others praise the journalistic integrity thereof (a group I belong in, that took major integrity).

Now, try and say that those in the first wave (1) weren't beaten; (2) seriously injured; (3) captured; and (4) freed by the second wave... The Turks admit it FFS.

I know it is asking a lot, when I ask for fair-minded obsevers (might I suggest that explains Netanyahu's delay in accepting who will take part in the inquiry) anywhere, even here (where the incidence of AIDP is disturbingly high).

Please, no platitudes, quotes from self-hating Jews, or statements from the Palestinian press machine, if you wish to respond, respond yourself.

Well what do you know?
It was about peace all along.
"Iran Revolutionary Guards ready to escort Gaza ships"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100606/wl_nm/us_israel_flotilla_iran

Wobbles wrote

>Why should anybody respect this (illegal) blockade anyway?

Even if there was not a blockade on the Gaza port it is
not a designated port of entry.
For your information every country designates ports of entry.
For instance Sydney is a port of entry but Broken Bay is not.
It is illegal for ships from overseas to enter a non port of entry.
So even if the blockade was not in place, it is still illegal to enter Gaza port.

Did you see the BBC's report of the shops in Gaza stocked to the
ceiling ? There does not seem to be a food shortage.

Philo,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dov_Weissglass

That's what a siege is meant to do. It's intended to grind down the will of population until they comply with your wishes. What did YOU think it was for?

Neverending retaliation?

Bazz,

So what? The challenge to the blockade was also meant to be symbolic. The blockade itself is illegal, as are the numerous acts of non-compliance with UN demands. If it wasn't for the USA's security and financial umbrella Israel would be considered a rogue state.

I also love seeing that "self-hating Jew" blanket accusation that gets dropped from time-to-time. There must be a fair percentage of dissident Israelis that just hate themselves and not their government for what's going on in their name.

Dear Bazz,

You claim that the shops are full of food
in Gaza? They may be - but the locals can't
afford to buy the food. They rely on the aid, as well
as the medical supplies, that is being
blocked. When you tell people to "tighten their
belts," you'd better make sure that they can
afford to buy the the belts first,
before they can tighten
them. "Let them eat cake," (when they can't even
afford bread).

You're entitled to your opinions -
but not your own facts!

Foxy wrote;
>You claim that the shops are full of food
>in Gaza? They may be - but the locals can't
>afford to buy the food.

If they can't buy the food why does the shopkeeper stock it ?
Surely he would not buy all that stock, vegetables and fruit in one shop, if no one can buy it !

The fruit & veg shop was stocked just like one near here.
What do you think ?

If someone kept shooting at you from across the road, would give them aid. I doubt it.
As long as the Palestinians keep spending all their money on weapons then the only option is that they go hungry.
Israel is not going anywhere, so the sooner the Palestinians live with it the better off they will be.

Dear Bazz,

In Australia the Mercedes Benz motor showrooms
are over-flowing with Mercedes, not everyone
can afford to buy them. A larger proportion
of the population buy cheaper Japanese cars
or second-hand cars, or have to rely on
public transport. Do you get the message?

According to recent international reports,
one fifth of the population of Gaza can afford
to buy the food in stock, its the other four-fifths
we're talking about.

Most of the food on sale in the shops is brought in
by black-marketeers through under-ground tunnels
from Egypt according to the media.

It's the foreign-aid such as the ship-armada that was
pirated, that the other four-fifths of the Gaza
population rely on.

Israel tends to distort the reality of the situation in
Gaza to suit theit own political agenda. It's only
as a result of the recent outrage - that the world
is reacting but the facts have existed since the early
blockade of Gaza.

These facts are on the international news coverage
we get everyday, you either don't watch the international
news channels or read international news coverage via
the web.

Yes Foxy you are right.
If we did not have to pay exorbitant taxes to support an army hell-bent on destroying New Zealand we might be able to afford the Mercedes cars.

Sorry Foxy, your reply is simply illogical.
A shop that large must be supplying a lot of people.
The supermarket also had a lot of stock but I particularly mentioned
the fruit & veg shop as the stock is perishable.

What was on the shelves would have lasted at most a week.
Therefore that shop must have a substantial customer base.
Now don't tell me it is the only fruit & veg in Gaza.

Frankly, I don't know all the ins and outs of Gaza but just that one
video of one shop told a story.
Now, you could say that the BBC used a shop in London and said it was
in Gaza, but I think the BBC has rather more credibility than that.

Dear Bazz,

One video shown on the BBC by a journalist
of one shop in Gaza doesn't give the full
picture of what's really happening there.
As I've tried to point out to you
a bit more investigative research is required
on your part because believing the spin will not
make it come true.

Come on guys you know Hamas always tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; whereas the BBC exaccerate the facts and deliberately deceive the British people. Please leave the defenders of Palistinian terrorism against Israel to their delusion.

Umm, I hate to point this out, but since the 31st May incident, Israeli troops have killed 4 Palestinians from Gaza who were kitted up in wetsuits, armed & setting off on a terror raid. They have also killed several others in Jerusalem and the West Bank, also terrorists.

Just thought some of the more obsessive compulsive Israel haters could use the advice... Not even the majority of TV channels have mentioned it, given how very newsworthy the whole flotilla incident was...

Ah well

It's an ill wind that does nobody any good

Dear Custard,

I hope that you'll still be reading this
because I'd like to get your take on
the thread that Examinator started
called, "Treason or truth." (I hope I
got that right). Anyway, I'd be interested
in your military expertise to his question,
"Should a soldier report any wrongdoing?"
I replied as a civilian. Your opinion would
be appreciated however.