cont..

You said; “There are Jews who do things I don't like. I don't refer to them as self-called or so-called Jews. They are still Jews as much as I am. Christians who do things you don't like are not self-called Christians. They are Christians as much as you are. The Jesus of the Bible didn't disavow people he didn't like. He associated with 'publicans and sinners.'

I think this needs some bedding down. Of course those born of a Jewish mother are deemed Jewish without qualification. Leaving aside Jewish converts I would have thought it would be a nonsense to call such a person a non-Jew because of the racial aspects of the religion. If I on the other hand were to sudden start calling myself Jew I doubt I would be regarded as such. (I have called myself gay for a day when a mate needed some solidarity against some homophobia but even then...)

The KKK regard themselves as a Christian organisation but I have the freedom to hold them to account for that claim, and challenge it if I so please purely by my measure. However I did choose my words carefully. All referring to themselves as Christian are by definition self-called because there is no hard and fast rule the entire faith agrees on about what makes a Christian. So why not adopt behaviour as the measure, it would seem as good as any.

I will admit to a certain romanticism about christianity, probably naively given my lack of faith but in answering Hamlet, my philosophy has some pretty big dreams.

Dear csteele,

I am quite tribal. I identify strongly with being a Jew. However, I do not identify with Israel. It is not my country. I am not a citizen of the country and do not intend to go there. I have great sympathy for the words of Sforim. However, Israel and the Jewish people are separate entities. I am wrong in saying a Christian should not lecture Israel.

Noam Chomsky is tremendously interested in Israel. Apparently you have some interest in it also. However, I don't feel I should be a subject for your lectures on Israel. To me it is another foreign country which does not have the separation of religion and state that I think is proper for a democratic country. That also applies to Australia.

You repeat the equation of being Christian as being something good. My definition of a Christian is equivalent to my definition of a Jew. A Christian is one who identifies as a Christian and is accepted by the Christian community as a Christian. A Jew is one who identifies as a Jew and is accepted by the Jewish community as a Jew. Those definitions make no judgment about behaviour. I have made judgments about Christian behaviour in the light of their horrible history. However, one may behave quite decently and still be a Christian. Many Christians are quite decent people. I think it self-serving to adopt behaviour as a measure as being a member of a group as members of a group commonly think of themselves as behaving better than those who are not part of the group.

However, my definition makes the KKK Christian. They are Christian in the judgment of the part of the Christian community they belong to. Whether you or I approve of their behaviour has nothing to do with their identification as Christians.

Part of the Jewish tradition is not to glorify militarism. By the number of generals in high positions in Israel it does not follow that tradition.

Dear davidf,

You continue to protest my apparent wielding of the proverbial tar brush with respect of Israel and your good self.

Being at a loss as to how I found myself in this position I have gone back over our posts and have come to the conclusion I may well be a straw man of your own creation and to paraphrase the Bard, 'You doth protest too much!'.

Leaving aside the very large tar brush you yourself were slapping around when you first addressed me on this thread, perhaps it was my post of June 5 that inadvertently pushed your buttons. It contained a paragraph about the Israeli cabinet which was my sleep deprived effort to keep my post relevant to the topic. The intent was not to equate you with the actions of the state of Israel but I now see your words “I resent the flaws of Israel being put on me” were referencing myself rather than the world in general.

I am willing to play the role created for me and in that light I ask can you really expect that to many the actions of the 'self proclaimed' Jewish nation of Israel, one containing such a high proportion of the world's Jewish population, not reflect on all Jews regardless of the fairness of it?

Acknowledging my lack of eloquence may I turn to Aesop's tale of The Two Pots.

An Earthen Pot and one of Brass, standing together upon the river's brink, were both carried away by the flowing in of the tide. The Earthen Pot showed some uneasiness, as fearing he should be broken, but his companion of Brass bid him be under no misapprehension, for that he would take care of him. O, replies the other, keep as far off as ever you can, I entreat you; it is you I am most afraid of: for, whether the stream dashes you against me, or me against you, I am sure to be the sufferer; and therefore I beg of you do not let us come near one another.

Guess I'm the kettle.

Dear Kettle,

I agree it is natural and unfair for the actions of Israel to reflect on all Jews. Until I was in my twenties the state of Israel did not exist. I identify with my homeland which is the United States of America. Once in a gathering a man came up to me and said, "I'm going to tell you something you're not going to like." Then he launched into a criticism of the US foreign policy and its connection with Israel. I said I had the same criticism and asked why he put that on me. He said, "Because you're an American."

I'll tell you a story about the traditional attitude of Jews toward militarism before Israel.

In Czarist Russia a Jew was conscripted into the army. He turned out to be a wonderful soldier. he could march long distances carrying heavy loads. His uniform was always kept up with buttons shined and shoes polished. He was the top marksman in his unit. He never made a mistake in close order drill. His commander was proud of him.

Then the Russo-Japanese war broke up, and his unit was sent to the front. His commander standing next to him in the trenches pointed to the Japanese and said, "Now, Shmuel, demonstrate your marksmanship."

"But, captain, there are people over there!"

One thing I like about General Monash was that, unlike the Israeli generals, he did not use his military charisma to go into politics. A group of rich Australians wanted him to take over the country, but he was a staunch democrat and refused.

D. H. Lawrence’s book, “Kangaroo”, is a highly fictional account inspired by the incident.

However, it is better to try to be objective rather than judging a group by behaviour. When you judge the KKK you seem not to regard them as Christian because they do not behave in the way you think a Christian should behave. If I judged them by their behaviour I would say they were very Christian since they behave in a way that Christians often have behaved.

Dear Earthen Pot,

Kind of you to shake the ghost of Sir John. My favourite thing about the great man was when he was asked to name his greatest achievement he replied it was the role he played in delivering the State Electricity Commission to the people of Victoria against the wishes of some very powerful interests. It was only when Jeff Kennett came to power that those interests were served again with the privatisation of the energy sector in this state. There was not a mention about his military achievements.

There is a bridge quite close to where I live that he built but the shires concerned never paid the final bill. Rumour is still strong to this day around the shire that there was anomosity because he was a Jew. He was left deeply in debt.

But more pertinent to our discussion; from the Australian Dictionary of Biography; “Habitual flirtation led to several embarrassing close associations and eventually, in 1888-89 to a tempestuous affaire with Annie Gabriel, a non-Jewish married woman. In September 1889, in a markedly unstable condition, Monash reached the point of attempting to abscond with her to another colony and thus, in disgrace, to abandon his cultural heritage—but just in time her husband carried her off to Sydney.”

Surely the abandonment of 'his cultural heritage' would have been the result of his behaviour.

First you lull me with tales of the East then deliver a swift poke in the kidneys as you finish. “If I judged them by their behaviour I would say they (the KKK) were very Christian since they behave in a way that Christians often have behaved.”.

Your call for objectivity is in many ways correct as it becomes a little nonsensical since a case could as easily be made with about as much veracity that they were very Jewish since they behave in a way that the Israeli government has often behaved.

However there are those who seek from their faith a higher standard to aspire to, and to hold others to. It is not an ignoble quest.

Cont..

Cont..

I have quoted this before on OLO but I have cut and pasted it here as it deserves another airing.

From Romanovich’s dream in Dostoyevski’s ‘Crime and Punishment’;

"I'll show you! Stand off," Mikolka screamed frantically; he threw down the shaft, stooped down in the cart and picked up an iron crowbar. "Look out," he shouted, and with all his might he dealt a stunning blow at the poor mare. The blow fell; the mare staggered, sank back, tried to pull, but the bar fell again with a swinging blow on her back and she fell on the ground like a log.

"Finish her off," shouted Mikolka and he leapt beside himself, out of the cart.

Several young men, also flushed with drink, seized anything they could come across--whips, sticks, poles, and ran to the dying mare. Mikolka stood on one side and began dealing random blows with the crowbar. The mare stretched out her head, drew a long breath and died.

"You butchered her," someone shouted in the crowd. "Why wouldn't she gallop then?"

"My property!" shouted Mikolka, with bloodshot eyes, brandishing the bar in his hands. He stood as though regretting that he had nothing more to beat.

"No mistake about it, you are not a Christian," many voices were shouting in the crowd.

But the poor boy, beside himself, made his way, screaming, through the crowd to the sorrel nag, put his arms round her bleeding dead head and kissed it, kissed the eyes and kissed the lips.... Then he jumped up and flew in a frenzy with his little fists out at Mikolka. At that instant his father, who had been running after him, snatched him up and carried him out of the crowd.

End quote.

I agree with the crowd.