Dear OLO..

I have long supported the War in Iraq....but perhaps it's time to re-consider?

This video of a Soldiers account of war crimes really shocked me.

What do you think ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT44mis7qDg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYfrO5A48vQ&feature=related

Should we hold the US accountable for these awful atrocities reported in these eye witness first hand self confessed accounts?

Very sneaky Al.

Jesse Adam MacBeth born Jesse Adam Al-Zaid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Macbeth

One charlatan does not change the fact the invasion was based on contrived and illegal grounds and innocent people have been killed. That is the nature of war and why it should not be entered into casually or for self-vested interests.

Do you dispute the US's own admission there were no WMDs?

Sigh!

Isn't there something in the Bible about bearing false witness, Boazy?

Is it my imagination, but has the whack-a-mozzie rhetoric wound up a notch or two since he-who-must-not-be-named has graced us once again with his presence here on OLO?

Everywhere you turn, there's another fear-and-loathing thread rearing its ugly head.

And when he appears on other threads, it is usually in order to twist the topic in order to push one or the other of his bile-filled barrows.

I wish he'd simply go back to dishing out corporal punishment to his kids, like in the old days.

Bad for her, but good for us.

Indeed, Pericles. No doubt he's feeling quite pleased with himself.

Did you notice that Graham Young has acknowledged that ALGOREtc is Boazy, and his reinstated our posts that he had deleted for referring to him as such, along with an apology?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3669#88710

Strangely, Boazy hasn't commented again on that thread since Graham's post.

Hadith 4:269
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

Al-Zaid was only following the perfect example of Mohammed:

Koran 33:21 The messenger of God has set up a good example for those among you who seek God and the Last Day, and constantly think about God.
Koran 68:4 And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character.

Actually.. this was a deliberately structured exercise in how in war the first casualty is 'truth'....

The reason that article was referenced was to test the waters for those who so eagerly embrace anything which seems to suit their cause.

In this case it was how the LEFT has swooped on the story of this so called soldier and made him a cause celebre of their anti war rants.

The fact that he was born "al said" ? now thats not something I picked up....what I DID pick up was how his story was broadcast world wide and that included Al Jazera.

Needless to say his story contributed to a large degree of polarization and 'America Hate'... promoted by the left.

But at least one site "Socialist Alternative" did acknowledge his story was fake..but as they say.. when you shake a torn down pillow in a wind...its pretty hard to pick up the contents again.

My point.... was that much of what is accepted by the left..including to major issues...

-Climate Change (at best an exaggeration based on the Gore/Strong scam.)
-No WMDs in Iraq...(contradicted by an Iraqi General)

are both based on falsities.

Not much more can be said now.. the falsehood of McBeth is now known.

So you deliberately sought to mislead us, eh Boazy?

Same old, same old.

What was that stuff about bearing false witness again?

Just take on board C J Morgan that Boazy himself is false.
His return has again bought his amazing attitudes out in the open.
While hiding behind yet another log in name.

Could someone please explain to me
how an American trying to cheat the
system by whatever underhanded
means at his disposal,
has to do with war, Iraq, or Islam?

I've got a good imagination - but
this takes the cake.

And more Islamic quotes?

All very bizarre to say the least!

Why does Graham Young allow this sort
of thing?

Disingenuous Foxy,

<<an American trying to cheat the system>>
or, more specifically,
a Muslim falsely claiming American atrocities against Muslims.

This would be tantamount to incitement to hatred if it were
a Christian legitimately claiming Islamic atrocities against Christians.
(Which is in fact an ongoing reality*, unlike Al-Zaid's lies)

Nevertheless, it is perfectly consistent with Mohammed's direction to Muslims:
"War is deceit."

It is also consistent with the Koran telling Muslims to follow the example of Mohammed:
"The messenger of God has set up a good example for those among you who seek God..."

<<Why does Graham Young allow this sort of thing?>>
Lucky for us you're not the "free speech" czarina.

*
http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/category/bulletin-of-christian-persecution/

Dear Proxy,

People who enjoy the rights of free speech
have a duty to respect other people's rights.
A personal freedom of speech is limited
by the rights of others. All civilized
societies put various limitations on
what people may say. They prohibit certain
types of speech that they believe may harm
people.

What is being done recently on this thread
and others, the persistent vilification of
Muslims under the pretext of discussion should
not be acceptable on a Forum that has any pretext
to integrity.

Proxy: << Disingenuous... >>

Very funny, given Boazy's entirely deceitful premise for this discussion.

Do you have any evidence at all that McBeth/Al-Zaid is a Muslim, beyond the fact that he appears to be of Arabic descent?

Foxy,
<<People who enjoy the rights of free speech
have a duty to respect other people's rights.>>
Even when those "other people" follow an ideology which demands the death penalty for those who blaspheme?
Is it not incumbent upon all believers in free speech to warn of the dangers of an ideology which is profoundly anti-free speech, to the extent that it advocates death for those who criticise it's founder?

<<A personal freedom of speech is limited by the rights of others.>>
Limited by what rights? Limited by the right of others to advocate death for those who insult their "prophet"?

<<All civilized societies put various limitations on what people may say.>>
Does this make Islam civilised by definition? Islam prohibits criticism of its "prophet" as one of the limits of free speech, punishable by death, and this makes it civilised?

<<They prohibit certain types of speech that they believe may harm people.>>
The only people who might be harmed by the type of free speech that you seem to be condemning are those exercising their right to free speech.
Or are you warning people that they should not criticise Islam because they might otherwise be reasonably harmed for transgressing Islamic limitations on free speech?

Foxy,
If Christians started demanding that nobody criticise Jesus otherwise they would murder them, would you grant them that "right" or would you call them murderous fanatics and demand that they be locked up?
What if they then actually started doing it, with rioting, arson and live beheadings on the internet?
Would you then develop a healthy respect for their right to put limitations on free speech?
All in the interests of maintaining community harmony, of course.

Al Zaid ?

Foxy.. when I opened this thread I did not have the slightest clue about McBeth's arabic/muslim connection .....

So you will note the 'Islamic quotes' are not from me.

Asking why Graham allows this is very very innapproriate and tantamount to stifling free speech which 'you' don't happen to approve of. I resent that attempt at 'repression' by you very seriously.

But Proxy does highlight one thing which escaped me...

"a Muslim falsely claiming American atrocities against Muslims."

If verifiable it would make sense.(in the same way a SriLankan government soldier (of Tamil background) might do the same in regard to Sinhalese Army.

But my focus was purely on how when some 'renegade' soldier suddenly comes out with some "AntiWar" rhetoric.. that the Left will take it up like a pitbull on a chihwawa and run with it.

I demonstrated this with appropriate links.. The "Muslim" angle is new to me...and frankly I don't care about it.

While it is of value and important to understand "Islam", our challenge is not primarily from them...it is with those who are using them as a means to destroy any sense of identity in Western countries.

They are but a symptom of a bigger crisis. My focus now is on the actual disease. i.e..Socialism and it's UberCapitalist backers.

My post/thread here is in complete harmony with that objective as it demonstrates the willingness, no..eagerness of the left to jump on any excuse to destroy capitalism.

<< Asking why Graham allows this is very very innapproriate and tantamount to stifling free speech which 'you' don't happen to approve of. I resent that attempt at 'repression' by you very seriously. >>

This from the same guy who wants Waleed Aly banned from appearing on the ABC, and who sets out to deliberately deceive us in this thread.

Some advocate for free speech - not.

Dear CJ,

I came across this paragraph in my
readings early this morning.
Which gave me some comfort.
You may enjoy it:

"There is a breed
of nothing people
who live in a no-man's land,
somewhere between fear and truth -
their frustration makes them dangerous -
but only
to other nothing people - "

(Nan Witcomb).

Truth is indeed a casualty of war Proxy. Still no comment from you about WMDs

Thanks Foxy - it certainly seems that we have an inordinate number of "nothing people" posting lately :)

Jesse whatsisname is a lightweight compared to the coalition’s propaganda war machine’s cover-up of the current and long-term disastrous consequences of their own WMD - the indiscriminate use of depleted and non DU munitions perpetrated on Iraq, Bosnia, Kosovo and Vieque’s men, women, children, plants, animal life and beyond.

Media reports abound stating that Iraq’s Minister of Human Rights, Wijdan Mikhail Salim is launching a lawsuit against Britain and the US, based on reports from the Iraqi ministries of science and the environment.

No need to hold one’s breath waiting for justice since the culprits have already manufactured yet another snow job to feed to the masses to cover up their ongoing crimes against humanity:

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/04/06/the-united-states-takes-the-matter-of-three-headed-babies-very-seriously/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-lava/hidden-health-crisis-vieq_b_446997.html

“Heat not a furnace for your foe so hot that it do singe yourself.” (William Shakespeare)

Protagorus

I guess you also want to lynch the Israelis for phosphorus weapons?

I hope if you do, you also wish to lynch Hamas for numerous crimes against humanity.

The weapons use by the Coalition in Iraq? hmmm I can't say I know a great deal about it..but what I do know is the USA is on the security council.. i.e. one of the 'winners and grinners' from the last World War.
They, along with the other 'winners' and China can veto things.

They are like a 'winners senate' so to speak. All the other upstarts just want to be 'big' like them.

You might be a good candidate for discussing the 'collectivisation' issue.. (see other thread)

Did you by any chance read the opening stuff ? what do you think ?

Is the UN infested with communists ? If yes.. would we likely see impartial justice in anything the U.N. does?

To many Muslims avoiding shame is far more important than telling the truth.

To at least one Christian spreading fear and loathing is far more important than telling the truth.

ALGORERICH – ‘Let him without sin………’ Seemingly you are indifferent to the fact that Australia is also complicit in the war crimes to which you refer and military veterans once active in these coalition forces are also suffering the health consequences from exposure to WMD, perpetrated on civilians by an apocalypse of psychopaths.

Furthermore, there are currently around 200,000 Vietnamese on a special pension of US$17/month – the victims of Agent Orange. Those deprived of this pension are in a locked room at Tu Du Obstetrical and Gynaecological Hospital in Saigon.

The locked room has rows of formaldehyde filled jars containing deformed foetuses - a grotesque legacy of Australia’s involvement and a grim reminder to all that Monsanto criminally and knowingly supplied the US military with a substance that causes widespread environmental carnage and serious inter-generational impacts on human health.

Forty years on neither the US, Australia, NZ, Korea or Monsanto et al have assisted the affected Vietnamese people, despite 291,000 American veterans suing Monsanto and other chemical companies in 1984, winning $180 million settlement.

To date, the Vietnamese have had to spend millions of dollars, decontaminating the US military bases and the financial assistance, pledged by Congress, has not eventuated.

In addition, America's war machine has spawned a global empire of some 800 military bases around the world (excluding the US) – polluting, contaminating and maiming with impunity.

Despite the international outrage of contaminated communities, the US tentacles have extended into Australia (compliments of the fawning John Howard) under the guise of ‘Talisman Sabre’ - a bi-annual bomb and destroy mission, comprising some 25,000 troups and the largest military operation on the planet, outside a war zone.

The NT, WA, Queensland, the surrounds of the Great Barrier Reef and the Coral Sea have been used and will continue to be used as cannon fodder for the next fifty years.

Given that the US military are allegedly the largest polluters on the planet, would you know the types of munitions being dumped on Australia's pristine lands and into fragile waterways or would that information be classified?

Dear Protagorus.... my point was not to whitewash any evil or methods used by the Coalition or the US in Vietnam.

We both know that 'regimes' do what fits the bill at the time, and pick up the pieces later. How many Jews harmed by Hamas Rockets are on a Hamas funded pension ?

But that also is not why I started this thread..I don't want have it delfected into a discussion about the rights and wrongs or the USA..because I have PLENTY of ammo about that which I'm saving for a different thread. But that is more 'now' than past history.

We could join that discussion of you wish on the 'Human Settlement' one.
What the US regime is doing right NOW..and to US..(u & me) is of more relevance than the past.

My only point on this thread... we to show how much spin the Left will use to discredit or damage their opponents no matter how fake and false it might be.

We may be sure...that lives have been lost over that video by McBeth.

What do you think about Cat Stevens trip ? (other thread)

“But that also is not why I started this thread”

Well that’s odd AG because I was responding to your question:

“Should we hold the US accountable for these awful atrocities reported in these eye witness first hand self confessed accounts?”

Well looks like I had the wrong war, wrong WMD but the same recidivist warmongers who like to dirty things up, eh?

Then you advise: ”My only point on this thread... we to show how much spin the Left will use to discredit or damage their opponents no matter how fake and false it might be”

And that too is perplexing because I’ve not seen anything in your thread about ‘Left’ either. Perhaps it's because I’m not left, not right but forward?

But I have some excellent remedies for penopause – interested?

Proto

If I'd begun the thread as "How the Left spins" it would have been obvious that I have a certain bias toward a different view.

I wanted to let it out there and see if anyone jumped on it as 'evidence' of bad things done. (i.e..as the story from MacBeth)

I did not plan (and don't desire) to argue the issue of "did the USA/coalition do bad things in Iraq"..

on the issue of "No WMD"..I'll touch that one briefly.. that myth has become such a cliche it's like people who speak about 'Climate Change' as though it was a done deal and unquestionably correct.

Georges Sida, Iraqi General was closely involved in moving them (WMD) to Syria.

Believe who you like on that..or do the usual thing and just say "The yanks paid him to say that"...or.."He was writing a book about it.so he 'would' say that wouldn't he"

Like I said.. the first casualty of war is truth..and that goes especially for the Left wing sites as well as the right.

I've changed my views on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan too. Both are pointless unless we stop their suppliers, which is Iran.

So, yes, let the US bomb Iran. Tonight if possible. And let Israel bomb them too.

Quite true Ben

the one HUGE thing which puzzles me... is why the Americans don't take more conerted action to stop Poppy production.. I mean full on pedal to the metal STOP....IT.. and if that alienates the population..so be it.

At least then they will have clearly defined battle lines and a real war they can fight, win and then restructure things accordingly.

I can think of a number of bizzare reasons why they don't do this, but as I said.. they are all bizzare :)

Notice how the same SPIN I have highlighted here is now being perpetrated in the MEDIA.

Yesterday the Age had (of all the possible choices) "Israel kills protestors"

I'm not sure.. I can't recall..but maybe the front page also had "peace" between kills and protestors.

They COULD have had "Israeli interdiction results in 19 casualties"

but..."the Age"..says it all.. leftwing.